1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

That sounds fair enough. And how is killing the council, working with Cerberus and keeping the Collector base going to help with that, exactly?

It increases human influence, which increases our wealth, which safeguards our independence. Independence is safety. The ability to protect and advance our own interests without having to appease or negotiate with others to get what we want/need.

Now that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek out allies, but we won't be forced to rely on allies.

It also makes enemies and generally adds to the negative perception of humanity. Any monetary gain and influence we might gain can easily be 'balanced' by the fact that since others don't trust us, we lose out on better business deals, trading, and plenty of people will shy away from working with groups who are known to sacrifice others in order to get a head.

If you let the council die, there's some extra human/turian hating going on that's noted on the newsnet. If you save the council, you hear that the turian Hierachy is considering making additional financial reparations to the descendents of the Shanxi battle. Sometimes the pay off is slower but lasts much longer. Immediate gain can end in disaster.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the welfare and prosperity of the human species isn't your priority then you're a traitor.

Despite what TIM says, Cerberus isn't humanity. And neither is the Alliance. You can believe there are other ways beside the Collector base to assure human dominance of the galaxy. 

[marshalleck]

In Exile wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If the welfare and prosperity of the human species isn't your priority then you're a traitor.

Despite what TIM says, Cerberus isn't humanity. And neither is the Alliance. You can believe there are other ways beside the Collector base to assure human dominance of the galaxy. 

Those "other ways" and preserving the base for study are not mutually exclusive.

[PlumPaul93]

So a thread like this would be made and have 40 pages in 2 days?

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...


It also makes enemies and generally adds to the negative perception of humanity.

Who cares how aliens percieve us? The stronger we become the less desirable we will be to have as enemies. More species will want to partner with us for protection and to keep us from being a threat to them. The greatest security for humanity is power, not good will.

It matters because we aren't an island alone in the galactic sea. We rely on trade and diplomacy fairly heavily, much as we currently do in real life. We need trade deals, we import, we export, we work on projects together and all pitch in to take care of the galaxy, at least as far as it extends under Council space. Our ship is based on humans and turians working together. Our upgrades includes extensions that originated with the asari and the quarians. We benefit and move ahead scientifically and medically by having friends and partners in the greater galactic community. For that, we need goodwill. I would hate to see the humans end up as the galactic version of Cuba or North Korea because 'we don't care what no stinkin' aliens think about us!'


Perception is important to move forward.

Modifié par Valentia X, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:20 .

[In Exile]

marshalleck wrote...
Those "other ways" and preserving the base for study are not mutually exclusive.

Not at all. I'm just saying that the debate to keep the base doesn't neccesarily have anyhing to do with working for or against humanity.

I think we ought to destroy the base for the same reasons we ought not to take a risk on the rachni, a risk on the genophage cure, or a risk on the heretic geth. 

Modifié par In Exile, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:20 .

[Bnol]

Luc0s wrote...

That sounds fair enough. And how is killing the council, working with Cerberus and keeping the Collector base going to help with that, exactly?

I think in the end you'll only shoot yourself in the foot with a Renegade attitude. In real-life that is. Let's see what ME3 will do with the Renegade choices.

My choice wasn't to kill the council, it was that the fleet needed to focus on taking down Sovereign, as nothing else matters at that time.  Same result different motivations.    Working with Cerberus was not a choice for anyone, yet it definitely helped humans in terms of trying to protect human colonies which the Council refused to do, even after being all nice and saving them as a Paragon, or the Renegade all human council (which make no sense), and Alliance was unable to do.  Keeping the Collector base is another resource in the battle against the Reapers, who are a threat to everyone.  Also, the technology sets us up to have more political and economic power after the war with the reapers.

I never really liked how they handled the Renegade situation from ME1-2.  It never really made sense that the Asari, Turians, and Salarians would just cede power so easily to an all human council, maybe it changes from ME2-3.  Rather it should have been more contentious, such that you needed to increase humanities power to get a proper foothold in galactic politics.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

We rely on trade and diplomacy fairly heavily, much as we currently do in real life.

Power compliments those things. Trade and diplomacy are harder for weaker nations/species because they have less to offer and cannot demand as much. They get less out of the deal and are at a disadvantage.

We will never be North Korea. North Korea is a tiny, powerless, poverty-stricken nation. Humanity is not. They're more like the United States but without all the debt.

North Korea was also not always a tiny, poverty stricken nation. It made itself that way, and continues to be that way thanks to their isolationism. Humanity is a one race of many. We can easily paint ourselves into a corner.

Trade and diplomacy are difficult for small, less powerful countries, yes, absolutely. It can also be a mighty pain in the ass for a nation that doesn't have friends and that no one can trust. Power is great, but it is not absolute and can be taken away, either by others or by shooting yourself in the foot.

[In Exile]

Bnol wrote..

I never really liked how they handled the Renegade situation from ME1-2.  It never really made sense that the Asari, Turians, and Salarians would just cede power so easily to an all human council, maybe it changes from ME2-3.  Rather it should have been more contentious, such that you needed to increase humanities power to get a proper foothold in galactic politics.

In ME2, it sounds like a human-turian cold-war is developing. We certainly need an edge over them, but if the Normandy can get its hands on the thanix cannon, you bet TIM and Cerberus have it. The real issue is whether the Collector base does anything to improve our standing, beyond risking a highly embedded splinter group. 

Saphra Deden wrote...

We will never be North Korea. North Korea is a tiny, powerless, poverty-stricken nation. Humanity is not. They're more like the United States but without all the debt.

Humanity is more like Brazil or India: an up-and-coming backwater nation, compared to the Turians or Asari. Maybe after ME2, it's more like Japan in the 70s-80s. 

[Raiil]

Luc0s wrote...

Bnol wrote...

I never really liked how they handled the Renegade situation from ME1-2.  It never really made sense that the Asari, Turians, and Salarians would just cede power so easily to an all human council, maybe it changes from ME2-3.  Rather it should have been more contentious, such that you needed to increase humanities power to get a proper foothold in galactic politics.

I strongly agree with this part of your comment. If Renegade was more about "get the job done" and less about "I'm an egocentric xenophobic a-hole" I'd also play Renegade. But I don't like how BioWare currently portayed Renegade in ME1-2 and so I decided to play Paragon, which suits me more than the "egocentric xenophobic a-hole".

If I could play Renegade without automatically being a xenophobic a-hole, I would favor playing Renegade.

Go renegon! All the git-er-done without all the xenophobic douchebaggery. 

[In Exile]

Luc0s wrote...
If I could play Renegade without automatically being a xenophobic a-hole, I would favor playing Renegade.

You can do that. Renegade decisions (i.e. killing the heretics, wrecking the genophage) don't require renegade points, or even being an ass. The only exception (and you can avoid it depending on your dialogue choices, I believe) is killing the rachni. 

[In Exile]

Valentia X wrote...
Go renegon! All the git-er-done without all the xenophobic douchebaggery. 

I never got how the mixed workds worked - isn't the renegon more renegade dialogue choices, but paragon decisions?

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

North Korea was also not always a tiny, poverty stricken nation. It made itself that way, and continues to be that way thanks to their isolationism. Humanity is a one race of many. We can easily paint ourselves into a corner.

I am not advocating isolationism.

North Korea is isolated because it is small and poor. Large and wealthy nations attract alliances by their very nature.

North Korea is isolated because they cut off contact with the outside world after the communists got their fingers in their pie, and then they've had succesive madmen as their leaders. South Korea was poor but chose to fling open her doors and make nice with the world after centuries of being the hermit kingdom, and now they're doing pretty damn well for themselves.

[Bnol]

Valentia X wrote...
It matters because we aren't an island alone in the galactic sea. We rely on trade and diplomacy fairly heavily, much as we currently do in real life. We need trade deals, we import, we export, we work on projects together and all pitch in to take care of the galaxy, at least as far as it extends under Council space. Our ship is based on humans and turians working together. Our upgrades includes extensions that originated with the asari and the quarians. We benefit and move ahead scientifically and medically by having friends and partners in the greater galactic community. For that, we need goodwill. I would hate to see the humans end up as the galactic version of Cuba or North Korea because 'we don't care what no stinkin' aliens think about us!'


Perception is important to move forward.

Except the Alliance would be more like a China or a United States.  I mean you trade with China because it is a huge market and has imense production power.  You don't trade with them because you are best buddies and the history of sweat shop labor and civil rights problems is quickly swept under the table.  Similarly the US has done plenty of things the rest of the world doesn't like, but nobody is about the stop the US right now because of the military strength/presence around the world.  Both countries did not start as major international powers and had to work out from the shadow/thumb of another power, but attained that status from doing things in their own interests. 

You want to ally with nations/species that provide you with something.  If they are a weak ally you are only weakening yourself by being pulled into their problems.  You see this over and over with the council not wanting to deal with humanities problems.  They allow us to colonize on the border of Council space, but then when we get attacked they don't do anything.  They would do something if we had more military and economic power as they would not want to lose that.

Modifié par Bnol, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:37 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alright then, Luc0s, you're naive.

Even if real-life hasn't taught you anything ME2 should have.

See this is why I like you Saphra.
You can argue a point fairly well, but then you shoot yourself in the foot by being a condescending ass.

Stay classy Saphra.

[Sebby]

Even with the malevolent smack talking against the Rachni the decision to wipe them out has nothing to do with Shepard being a "xenophobe".

[Raiil]

In Exile wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
Go renegon! All the git-er-done without all the xenophobic douchebaggery. 

I never got how the mixed workds worked - isn't the renegon more renegade dialogue choices, but paragon decisions?

That's how I play it, but as far as I'm concerned, renegon/paragade means there's less than a 25-30% difference between your paragon and renegade score, with whatever you have more of being the first part of the word (I was at 100% renegade and 75% paragon last time, so renegon for me)!