1939 réponses à ce sujet

[CuseGirl]

After reading about the ME-3 demo, IF that's the only story we'll be presented with in the beginning, I'm inching closer to the opinion of "I should have kept the collector base, dammit!"

I have one playthru where I blew it up and a second playthru where I kept it.....this 3rd time around, I think i'm blowing it up......

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even with the malevolent smack talking against the Rachni the decision to wipe them out has nothing to do with Shepard being a "xenophobe".

Renegade speech when you get the Normandy in ME1 is pretty much xenophobic, or at least pretty damn racist. I know there are more examples of pure-Renegade Shepard showing racism and xenophobia, but it's 4:38 AM here and I can't think of any examples right now out the top of my head (since i only have 1 Renegade playthrough so I don't remember much of it right now).

The only smack talking Renegade did against other species that offended me was when he would mouth off against the Vorcha. Everything else was alright with me.

You're not a real human, when a real human gets offended he simply shrugs it off. You're lying there right now like a vorcha grubbing in the mud. You just gonna lie there, vorcha?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:15 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even with the malevolent smack talking against the Rachni the decision to wipe them out has nothing to do with Shepard being a "xenophobe".

Renegade speech when you get the Normandy in ME1 is pretty much xenophobic, or at least pretty damn racist. I know there are more examples of pure-Renegade Shepard showing racism and xenophobia, but it's 4:38 AM here and I can't think of any examples right now out the top of my head (since i only have 1 Renegade playthrough so I don't remember much of it right now).

The only smack talking Renegade did against other species that offended me was when he would mouth off against the Vorcha. Everything else was alright with me.

You're not a real human, when a real human gets offended he simply shrugs it off. You're lying there right now like a vorcha grubbing in the mud. You just gonna lie there, vorcha?

Iseewhatyoudidthar:ph34r:

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:19 .

[Bnol]

Valentia X wrote...

Bnol wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
It matters because we aren't an island alone in the galactic sea. We rely on trade and diplomacy fairly heavily, much as we currently do in real life. We need trade deals, we import, we export, we work on projects together and all pitch in to take care of the galaxy, at least as far as it extends under Council space. Our ship is based on humans and turians working together. Our upgrades includes extensions that originated with the asari and the quarians. We benefit and move ahead scientifically and medically by having friends and partners in the greater galactic community. For that, we need goodwill. I would hate to see the humans end up as the galactic version of Cuba or North Korea because 'we don't care what no stinkin' aliens think about us!'


Perception is important to move forward.

Except the Alliance would be more like a China or a United States.  I mean you trade with China because it is a huge market and has imense production power.  You don't trade with them because you are best buddies and the history of sweat shop labor and civil rights problems is quickly swept under the table.  Similarly the US has done plenty of things the rest of the world doesn't like, but nobody is about the stop the US right now because of the military strength/presence around the world.  Both countries did not start as major international powers and had to work out from the shadow/thumb of another power, but attained that status from doing things in their own interests. 

You want to ally with nations/species that provide you with something.  If they are a weak ally you are only weakening yourself by being pulled into their problems.  You see this over and over with the council not wanting to deal with humanities problems.  They allow us to colonize on the border of Council space, but then when we get attacked they don't do anything.  They would do something if we had more military and economic power as they would not want to lose that.

The Alliance is no where near the US or China in-game, though; haven't been around long-enough, our military is fairly tiny (comparitively speaking) and we don't have much going on with trade compared to others. If we're going to swing our weight around, we might want to take the time post-Reaper to actually build up to that. Or hell, start after the war. 

That depends on your decision in ME1.  If you decide to kill/not help the council the Council military takes the brunt of the attack and loses a lot of military strength, while the Alliance takes few losses.  This is similar to WW2, in that the European powers were the major players internationally, still holding on to their empires.  Then WW2 hits and those European powers take massive hits to their military and infrastructue.  The US is relatively unscathed and then rises to prominence both politically and economically. 

Although, if you chose the Paragon route then the Alliance takes heavy losses but gets a seat at the table, although not a prominent one. 

[Bnol]

laecraft wrote...
There is something I can never understand. When the Collectors were destroying human colonies, the Council didn't interfere because it's not their area of jurisdiction. Now, what I don't understand is why the Alliance didn't interfere. The Alliance wasn't created to serve the aliens. It was created to defend humanity. And where are they now? Where's that fleet? What is that "everything they stand for"? What's their platform - binding to aliens' laws?

Well they did send the VS to investigate the disappearing colonists.  A standing army is not practical to protect all the colonies, and would not have helped in the situation anyways.  Fleets wouldn't work either because there would not be enough ships around to protect all the colonies, as the Collector ship could pick and choose targets.  Investigation of the threat to identify it and then eliminate it was the prudent course. 

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Even with the malevolent smack talking against the Rachni the decision to wipe them out has nothing to do with Shepard being a "xenophobe".

Renegade speech when you get the Normandy in ME1 is pretty much xenophobic, or at least pretty damn racist. I know there are more examples of pure-Renegade Shepard showing racism and xenophobia, but it's 4:38 AM here and I can't think of any examples right now out the top of my head (since i only have 1 Renegade playthrough so I don't remember much of it right now).

The only smack talking Renegade did against other species that offended me was when he would mouth off against the Vorcha. Everything else was alright with me.

You're not a real human, when a real human gets offended he simply shrugs it off. You're lying there right now like a vorcha grubbing in the mud. You just gonna lie there, vorcha?

But I AM a Vorcha.

[Raiil]

When the turians nearly wiped humanity out, the rest of the Council interfered. The Alliance then was forced to make nice to the Council, in exchange for - you guessed it - protection. From the Council itself. That's why the Council, the alien empire that has absolutely nothing to do with humanity, is now our government, our law. That's why when they say something, the Alliance hurries to nod their heads.

The turians didn't almost wipe humanity out. The First Contact War/Relay 314 incident was a short engagement wherein the turians lost more people than the humans by a small margin, and causalities were, if memory serves, in the hundreds. The Council intervened to prevent war and brought humanity into the galactic fold.

You think we're doing it because we just love to bind to someone else's rule? We're doing it because we don't want to end up like the batarians! If the Alliance disagrees with the Council, the Council will withdraw their protection, and the turians will bomb us into the stone age, and the batarians will destroy the remains of us.

The batarians left the council, the Alliance didn't withdraw their protection. It was the choice of the batarian gov't. I believe only the quarians have lost council embassies.

There is something I can never understand. When the Collectors were destroying human colonies, the Council didn't interfere because it's not their area of jurisdiction. Now, what I don't understand is why the Alliance didn't interfere. The Alliance wasn't created to serve the aliens. It was created to defend humanity. And where are they now? Where's that fleet? What is that "everything they stand for"? What's their platform - binding to aliens' laws?

If someone revokes their citizenship or alligence, the people on the other end of that bond are in no obligation to assist you. That is what the colonists in Terminus space did, by their own admission- they left to get away from the Alliance.

The Council is not our government. We never chose it, we never created it, and it's not their business to tell us where to settle - especially if there's no other place to settle in that's not occupied by other species. And apparently, a single vote on the Council is not enough to give us any pull.

Don't you get it? Humanity simply doesn't have an official organization with a militaty might to defend it. We lost it. The Council took it away. And now they want Cerberus. Of course they want Cerberus. And the Alliance hurries to give it to them.

Humanity chose to join the Citadel- there is absolutely nothing that states or infers that we were bullied into it. We could have just ignored them, made peace with the turians if necessary and gone on inside the Sol system alone. We chose.

And Cerberus is a terrorist organisation that has attacked the Alliance before; what in the name of God makes you think they're entitled to any sort of protection from the Systems Alliance? It's not just aliens they provoke, attack, and murder.

Tell me, Cerberus haters. If the Council asked you to bring them your first-born son, would you? If the Council asked you to destroy a human city, would you? But you did. You did. You left the entire human colonies to their deaths, to keep the Council's favour. Afraid of war? Those human colonies are the losses of war in which we're not fighting back. And if not for Cerberus, we would've lost.

Cowards. I can't believe the Earth didn't start a rebellion when that happened to the colonies. Many people had family and friends there. Why didn't they demand the Alliance to act? Why didn't they compose a fleet and just do something? Why everyone was just sitting and doing nothing? How come it's up to a single shadow organization and one dead man to save the galaxy?

One, what does the Council asking for their firstborn have to do with joining the intergalactic fold? They offered us a place so long as we abided by their rules. They didn't demand control of Earth. Two, the humans in the Terminus systems made a decision to leave Alliance/Council space of their own accord. Where were they when Sovereign attacked? Where were they when we were going after the geth after the Citadel got smushed? Where was the aid, the helping hand?

That's right, no where. We have no ties but shared genetics between us. They owe us nothing, and we owe them nothing.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Humanity has a larger industrial base and economic and numerical superiority?

The Reaper war will somehow decimate the other races and leave humanity in a position of strength.

Actually, in a lot of ways that's what the war with the geth was if you went the Renegade route.

Humanity does not have a tiny military. It is comparable to any of the Council races.

Not really. It's probably bigger than the asari but no where near the turians, who remark on how the humans have different fighting tactics based on their low numbers.

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Humanity has a larger industrial base and economic and numerical superiority?

The Reaper war will somehow decimate the other races and leave humanity in a position of strength.

Actually, in a lot of ways that's what the war with the geth was if you went the Renegade route.

Humanity does not have a tiny military. It is comparable to any of the Council races.

And there was a codex entry or maybe dialogue that I remember that the strength of the human military only uses a small fraction of the human population, so the humans are the sleeping giant again, in terms of available manpower. All the humans need is more tech and equipment!

[Praetor Knight]

Valentia X wrote...

Not really. It's probably bigger than the asari but no where near the turians, who remark on how the humans have different fighting tactics based on their low numbers.

But that is strategy and tactics with applying force.

The Turians do have the most dreadnoughts, but the Alliance could have an equal number of total ships to the Turians, and many more Carriers than other Navies.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 juillet 2011 - 04:26 .

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bnol wrote...

Well they did send the VS to investigate the disappearing colonists.  A standing army is not practical to protect all the colonies, and would not have helped in the situation anyways.  Fleets wouldn't work either because there would not be enough ships around to protect all the colonies, as the Collector ship could pick and choose targets.  Investigation of the threat to identify it and then eliminate it was the prudent course. 

Actually the Alliance does take notice and so does the human Council. The human Council officially requests the salarian STG to investigate the disappearances.

The Alliance has been sending their own investigators but they haven't turned up anything. After Horizon they do send the Alliance fleet to evacuate small colonies and guard other ones. However any ships which run into the Collectors are immediately lost so in Hackett's own words, "We're hoping you and Cerberus have an ace up your sleeve."

One thing I've always wondered, is there more than one Collector ship? ME2 doesn't provide a conclusive answer but logically speaking if they were able to build one they should have been able to build more.

If there's one thing I would changed about the SM it would have been seeing a bunch of Collector warships under construction in or around their base.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Not really. It's probably bigger than the asari but no where near the turians, who remark on how the humans have different fighting tactics based on their low numbers.

A war between the human Alliance and turian Hierarchy is feared to potentially leave much of the galaxy uninhabited. The Alliance fleet is quite large and has been pointed out it has a lot of room to grow. The turians alone could not stomp us flat. No race could.

Humanity is big and its getting bigger.

Per the wiki:

The Alliance military is respected by the Citadel races for its novel tactics and technology (and not least for the fact the First Contact War had more turian than human casualties). Their strength lies in fire support, flexibility, and speed. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant" as only 3% of humans volunteer for military service. They make up for low numbers with sophisticated technical support (VIs, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative. Their military doctrine is not based on absorbing and dishing out heavy shocks like the turians and krogan. Rather, they bypass enemy strong points and launch deep into their rear, cutting supply lines and logistics, destroying headquarters and support units, leaving enemies to 'wither on the vine'.

Compared to the turians, who have mandatory gov't or military service where everyone (barring potential exemptions, but we know nothing on that) has to serve. Everyone. Our strength is that we're essentially the wild cards of the universe- more genetic diversity, unique tactics, etc. 

I guess one thing to bring up is that we're going to have vastly different responses based on what we chose. Those who chose the neutral or renegade option regarding the Destiny Ascension have more ships than those of us who chose to paragon our way through that one.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Humanity chose to join the Citadel- there is absolutely nothing that states or infers that we were bullied into it. We could have just ignored them, made peace with the turians if necessary and gone on inside the Sol system alone. We chose.

I pity you and your inability to read subtext. Wait, subtext? No, this is stated outright.

"If the Council makes a ruling on an interstellar matter we have to follow it; we don't have the fleets or political allies to defy them." - Anderson

If that isn't coercion then what is?

We. choose. to. belong. We are allowed to leave. Hell, that's what Terra Firma wants- to stand alone. This is not me missing subtext. This is me saying we can withdraw. They didn't bomb the quarians after they lost their embassy, they didn't nuke the batarians for closing shop. We have chosen to remain part of Citadel space of our own accord. That is the decision of the Alliance and those who choose to be a part of it.

[littlezack]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

We. choose. to. belong. We are allowed to leave.

We're allowed to leave if we want to be marginalized and destitute on the fringes of space much like the batarians.

That's not a real choice. If we want trade and access to the richest economies we have to do what the Council wants. They've got all the cards.

You're hung up on technicalities and not looking at the reality "on the ground" as it were.

No wonder you're a Council stooge.

That's the thing, though - it's the Council's sandbox, they were there first. Humanity's the new kid on the block, and we have to pay dues. And really, even in the worst case, the Council gives humankind a lot more respect than some of the long-timers, like the Volus and the Hanar.

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

We. choose. to. belong. We are allowed to leave.

We're allowed to leave if we want to be marginalized and destitute on the fringes of space much like the batarians.

That's not a real choice. If we want trade and access to the richest economies we have to do what the Council wants. They've got all the cards.

You're hung up on technicalities and not looking at the reality "on the ground" as it were.

No wonder you're a Council stooge.

But wait, with how the Alliance is spread outwithin Council space and places like Bekenstein, we would leave a dent in their economies for a while. And humans should be fine compared to other governments and economies.

And do we need to use labels? I'm really hating labels.

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

We. choose. to. belong. We are allowed to leave.

We're allowed to leave if we want to be marginalized and destitute on the fringes of space much like the batarians.

That's not a real choice. If we want trade and access to the richest economies we have to do what the Council wants. They've got all the cards.

You're hung up on technicalities and not looking at the reality "on the ground" as it were.

No wonder you're a Council stooge.

That is a real choice. It's not the nice option or the best option, but there it is, a choice, hanging right in our faces. We'd be independent. Hell, we're new on the scene and we seemed to be doing pretty well beforehand. There's nothing to say we couldn't have trading agreements with the asari and the salarians, whom we've remained on decent terms with. We could colonise other worlds. It would be a long slog, but it's a viable option. Just not a fun one.

Also, we have very little insight into the actual batarian homeworld other than it's under dictatorships within individual nation states. The batarians we currently see in-game have left batarian space and are not under the rule of their homeworld, and it's stated that they do not represent the average batarian still living under their gov't.