1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So why should we accept being downtrodden when we can run the whole system, Valentia? We're giving them a choice too. They can accept our lead or get smashed under our boot. That's a real choice, right?

It is very much a real choice. Only that choice squares us directly against the rest of the galaxy, and combined they have a lot more resources than we do. Leading short-term is one thing. Having one race maintain complete control indefinitely is something entirely different. 

Or, as an IRL example, the US stepped into the southern half of the Korean pennisula after WW2. The US helped rebuild a lot of infrastructure and helped the fledgling gov't back onto it's feet. The US does not, by any stretch of the imagination, actually run South Korea- or any part of Asia, for that matter- these days.  It maintains a presence via US military bases and the socio-economic ties are dense and entangled, but it is not under the American boot. We have a robust trading system with SK, Japan and China, we maintain diplomatic relations, but we do not rule them from under our boot.

[Schneidend]

Don't worry, Bioware: I got this.

The point was to ****** off Dean the Young.

[Praetor Knight]

Valentia X wrote...

Or, as an IRL example, the US stepped into the southern half of the Korean pennisula after WW2. The US helped rebuild a lot of infrastructure and helped the fledgling gov't back onto it's feet. The US does not, by any stretch of the imagination, actually run South Korea- or any part of Asia, for that matter- these days.  It maintains a presence via US military bases and the socio-economic ties are dense and entangled, but it is not under the American boot. We have a robust trading system with SK, Japan and China, we maintain diplomatic relations, but we do not rule them from under our boot.

A lot more happened on that peninsula than that though, but I'm not gonna get into what the US did, since that's way off topic.




And with going against the other species, I'm afraid of what the Salarians could cook up.

[Raiil]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Or, as an IRL example, the US stepped into the southern half of the Korean pennisula after WW2. The US helped rebuild a lot of infrastructure and helped the fledgling gov't back onto it's feet. The US does not, by any stretch of the imagination, actually run South Korea- or any part of Asia, for that matter- these days.  It maintains a presence via US military bases and the socio-economic ties are dense and entangled, but it is not under the American boot. We have a robust trading system with SK, Japan and China, we maintain diplomatic relations, but we do not rule them from under our boot.

A lot more happened on that peninsula than that though, but I'm not gonna get into what the US did, since that's way off topic.




And with going against the other species, I'm afraid of what the Salarians could cook up.

I'm well aware (I grew up in South Korea ), was just trying to give a really basic example without a five thousand word essay on the matter.

[marshalleck]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You're still a traitor though and after we coronate the first emperor you'll be sold to the batarians as a slave with all the other useful idiots.

 

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I wouldn't worry thuogh, Valentia. The Council races have proven to be quite spineless and are quite willing to submit to the human Council. They won't fight us, they know they can't afford it. Even in victory we'd leave them broken and dying.

Excluding Turians; spineless for a straight up fight, yes that seems fair to consider.

But remember, the Salarians created the genophage, so I'd be concerned what they'd consider to do to humans.

Valentia X wrote...

I'm well aware (I grew up in South Korea ), was just trying to give a really basic example without a five thousand word essay on the matter.

I spent a semester in South Korea, many fond memories.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:14 .

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

It is very much a real choice.

Well, alright then. You're being consistent in your application of your morality. I can respect that.

You're still a traitor though and after we coronate the first emperor you'll be sold to the batarians as a slave with all the other useful idiots.



Also, when it comes to the US it is by and large unilateral. When it can get international support it does, but it isn't unwiling or unable to "go it alone" as it were. That's the luxury afforded to a super power.

I wouldn't worry thuogh, Valentia. The Council races have proven to be quite spineless and are quite willing to submit to the human Council. They won't fight us, they know they can't afford it. Even in victory we'd leave them broken and dying.

Being a traitor means I'd have to be betraying something. If I never held to your code of conduct, and you are not the essence of humanity (since none of us are). then I can't have betrayed anything. I already said that I'm not going to fling humanity into a black hole for s--ts and giggles. I just won't put them ahead of everyone else unless there's a really good reason to. Giving power to a bunch of people when I already know that there are insane risks involved doesn't really smack of betrayal to me. I wouldn't give the base to anyone unless I could cook up some sort of joint human-hanar project.

I also fail to see how the council 'races' have shown themselves to be spineless, unless you're being literal with the hanar. The Council does not embody the race entire no more than Anderson and Udina are THE human. The STG has already proven willing to work with us. If you save the Citadel, relations with the turians thaw considerably, and we're already on good terms with both the salarian Union and the asari. Is the Council spineless? Yeah, sure, I didn't save them to be shining examples of how the universe should be won. I saved them because galactic unity is good for everyone, with the good and the bad spread around all species. We've already had individuals from most of the races throw in their lot with us, with several of them having strong enough ties to their people that they can be strong, willing, friendly allies in the war to come.

[Sebby]

marshalleck wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

You're still a traitor though and after we coronate the first emperor you'll be sold to the batarians as a slave with all the other useful idiots.

 

Saphra says some good zingers doesn't he?

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Collectors created something even nastier and thankfully Cerberus was given their base. If the aliens are stupid enough to attack our people with biological weapons we'll do the same.

Like I said, broken and dying.

The other races aren't that dumb though. A war with humanity isn't worth the trouble.

I've only saved the base once in my ME2 playthroughs.

And the Salarian STG does use some shady tactics, they could give humans a run for their money.

Edit: Link!

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 17 juillet 2011 - 05:23 .

[littlezack]

Saphra Deden wrote...

littlezack wrote...

That's the thing, though - it's the Council's sandbox, they were there first. Humanity's the new kid on the block, and we have to pay dues.

Only so long as we're too weak to be the new boss of the sandbox. With people like you or Valentia making these decisions we'll be stuck paying our dues for thousands of years. Like the volus.

It is a dog eat dog world out there. The Council didn't build the Citadel, the found it. It's only theirs so long as they can keep it.

If you are so gung-ho about the Council strongarming everyone then why are you opposed to your own race doing the same?

As I said in the part of my post that you cut off for some reason, humanity doesn't have to push people around to get their way. It's not a smooth transition, but even before the events of the first game, it's clear that humanity is making a fast rise into respect and power. In less than a century, we're farther along than any other Non-Council race.

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, the salarians are all about self-interest. As we become stronger they'll want to improve relations with us and that will mean using their expertise to pit the asari and turians against each other. The salarians ally with whoever can help them the most. That will be us.

Same with the volus.

I can see the Asari trying to do that, but the Salarians could see humans as a threat depending of what their intel uncovers.

Cerberus is the wild card here, and could do some harm with relations.

[In Exile]

laecraft wrote...
Don't you get it? Humanity simply doesn't have an official organization with a militaty might to defend it. We lost it. The Council took it away. And now they want Cerberus. Of course they want Cerberus. And the Alliance hurries to give it to them.

Cerberus isn't what we need to curbstomp the Council. It's more than just crushing the aliens - it's about fundamentally changing human society. 

Tell me, Cerberus haters. If the Council asked you to bring them your first-born son, would you? If the Council asked you to destroy a human city, would you? But you did. You did. 

What are you talking about? 

You left the entire human colonies to their deaths, to keep the Council's favour. Afraid of war? Those human colonies are the losses of war in which we're not fighting back. And if not for Cerberus, we would've lost.

Again, what are you on about? 

Cowards. I can't believe the Earth didn't start a rebellion when that happened to the colonies. Many people had family and friends there. Why didn't they demand the Alliance to act? Why didn't they compose a fleet and just do something? Why everyone was just sitting and doing nothing? How come it's up to a single shadow organization and one dead man to save the galaxy?

Remember the bomb into the stone age bit? Yeah, that's why. 

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...
The Reaper war will somehow decimate the other races and leave humanity in a position of strength.

But that's not where the US was prior to WWII. It had one of the largest populations, by far the largest industrial base, and all of its lines of production were isolated from its enemies. Pearl Harbour happened because the Japanese couldn't afford to declare war straight up.

Actually, in a lot of ways that's what the war with the geth was if you went the Renegade route.

? Not really. 

Humanity does not have a tiny military. It is comparable to any of the Council races.

Humanity was outnumbered 5:1 in dreadnoughts by the Turians and 3:1 by the Asari and Salarians. Our massive ship fleet is much smaller. And our population is tiny - several billion over potentially tens of billions or trillions, and the entire turian population is militarized, more or less. 

We aren't in a position of strength like that. If we were, the Council would have given us a seat from the start rather than just making us a counter-balance to their own power. They're not stupid politically. 

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I can see the Asari trying to do that, but the Salarians could see humans as a threat depending of what their intel uncovers.

Cerberus is not a concern. They're a fringe group and they're on our side anyway.

The concern is if Cerberus preempts the STG and attacks the Salarians directly. Then there is a concern if Cerberus has too many traceable connections with the Alliance.

If that is the case the Salarians would not trust the Alliance.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I pity you and your inability to read subtext. Wait, subtext? No, this is stated outright.

"If the Council makes a ruling on an interstellar matter we have to follow it; we don't have the fleets or political allies to defy them." - Anderson

If that isn't coercion then what is?

It's totally coercion... but it's also why our fleets aren't comparable. Unless you think humanity somehow has the industrial base to equal the combined Council races in 2 yrs. 

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I can see the Asari trying to do that, but the Salarians could see humans as a threat depending of what their intel uncovers.

The asari aren't desirable as allies. The more estranged from them we are the better.

The salarians side with whoever is stronger. They are a weak people and need stronger allies to be their sword. That will be us. They're dangerous, but we've got all the advantages in technology.

Cerberus is not a concern. They're a fringe group and they're on our side anyway.

This is based on what? Why aren't the asari desirable as allies? And what proof if there that the salarians side with whomever is stronger? And how is Cerberus, which conducts illegal/unethical/occasionally just weird experiments on the unwilling not a concern? Both the Alliance and the Council consider them a threat.

[In Exile]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
And with going against the other species, I'm afraid of what the Salarians could cook up.

The salarians very likely already have a genophage equivalent ready to drop on Earth at a moments notice. The entire role of the STG is to have a contigency plan in place like this. 

This is why clutching the idiot ball and starting a war before we're too integrated in the galaxy militarily and economically isn't worth our while. Humanity has to >> the Council races combined economically and military first. 

[TexasToast712]

 I destroyed it because my gut told me Tim would put more humans in the Reaper smoothie machine or something just as bad and I am mostly renegade. I didnt do it to simply "Stick it to TIM."