1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alright then, Luc0s, you're naive. 

Even if real-life hasn't taught you anything ME2 should have.

Says a person siding with terrorists who get themselves indoctrinated every time they change the light bulb.

You got a knack for politics, always siding with the weakest party,I like that.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Which is exactly what is happening. If you hang around the Citadel after the Collector Ship but before the IFF mission you can hear a report about the 5th Fleet stopping by Patavig. The response is volus independence movements staging protests.

An excellent development for humanity and a forboding one for the turians.

That's incredibly naive. Do you think that every time an independence movement pops up among the trillions of people it changes anything?

How exactly will the volus protect themselves without the turians?

Let's be realistic here.


You have two choices, blow up the base or give it to Cerberus.

Blow up the base and you stop the human abductions, you learn some more things about the Reapers, but that's it.

Give it to Cerberus and then what? The only useful thing that could come out of the base is a 1) superweapon of sorts, or 2) several advancements in technolodgy.

1) The most powerful superweapon that could come out of it is a Reaper. Anything else would be less powerful. Why? Do you think that you can develop superweapons better than the Reapers can? I just...doubt that.

A Reaper would stand no chance against a Reaper fleet. Therefore, a Reaper is only useful against defeating aliens.

2) What kind of advancements are we talking about? Do you think that the HR is in a state that would carry around armour or it's main gun? Or that the Collectors, a race that communicates with telepathy and by Harbinger itself, would have blueprints lying around? Without Harbinger the Collectors are mindless drones. Therefore, they can only build a Reaper if Harbinger is assuming control of the Collector General and giving instructions.

And still, even if somehow the advancements will make a ship as powerful as a Reaper, and even if Cerberus decides to share them all with the aliens, the Reapers still have superior numbers.

Therefore again, these resources could only be harmful towards aliens and useless towards Reapers.

--
This discussion could have been logical if we didn't know how Cerberus would end up like.

Attacking you. Now there is zero profit from the CB, if there ever was (there wasn't) in the past.

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I love an underdog.

That decides to be named after another dog (I guess that you could say underdog) that gets defeated by one man. Sounds familiar?

You have to start somewhere. As for who will protect the volus... well the answer to that should be obvious.

I don't know about you, but Denmark is still a democracy.

[ZeroCrewX]

MegaBadExample wrote...

Explosions are fun.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

This discussion could have been logical if we didn't know how Cerberus would end up like.

Attacking you.

So... this again?

Now there is zero profit from the CB, if there ever was (there wasn't) in the past.

Glad to know you're psychic.

This is the drivel that makes these discussions not fun.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:44 .

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...
So... this again?

I explained my thought process anyway, doesn't it make sense?

Glad to know you're psychic.

Sh**, I was not supposed to tell that in public.

This is the drivel that makes these discussions not fun.

Adressed in the beginning of the post.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

This is the drivel that makes these discussions not fun.

No, that would be Cerberus defenders grasping at the very last straw, trying to justify giving Cerberus potential WMDs, even if we all know that it would only benefit them and no-one else in the same capacity.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, that would be Cerberus defenders grasping at the very last straw, trying to justify giving Cerberus potential WMDs, even if we all know that it would only benefit them and no-one else in the same capacity.

I guess that's how you'd see if you'd dismiss everything.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
So... this again?

I explained my thought process anyway, doesn't it make sense?

Yes, though the end part of the post seems to suggest the entire discussion is illogical because of the metagame knowlege of the player.

[edit] Was just repeating myself as I have an intense hatred for metagame as they've always tainted these kinds of discussions.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

This is all downright silly.


I actually saved right beforeh te collector base decision, jsut to see what Sheppard will say. When he said "I won't sacrifice humanitites soul" I cringed...what a horribly stupid thing to say. Because teh base was used to turn humans into a slurpie, exploring it in an effort ot learn more about the enemy that wil ldestroy hte galaxy is sacrificing the soul?????
Writing fail.


Either way, I kept the base. It was the only sennsible thing to do based on the know facts;
- TIM and Cerberus are the only ones actively opposing the reapers. The only ones to believe they're there. The only ones that will try to get the maximum out of this.
- The reapers are coming. It is now known when they will arrive.Could be months, could be years. Any advantage we can get over them will be cruical. And who knows what is in that base.
- regardless of how muhc Shep trusts TIM, throwing away a golden opportunity like that, out of some self-righteousness? Smells like pretnesious BS. Shep thinks to highly of himself and his assesment of others, that he's willing to risk the entire galaxy based on it?
- Unlike the player, Shep doesn't know he's the designated Hero nad he will suceed without the base. Opting ot destroy hte base requires a lot of out-of-character knowledge and thinking.

[Reever]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
So... this again?

I explained my thought process anyway, doesn't it make sense?

Yes, though the end part of the post seems to suggest the entire discussion is illogical because of the metagame knowlege of the player.

[edit] Was just repeating myself as I have an intense hatred for metagame as they've always tainted these kinds of discussions.

I´m sure hundreds of posters already said this: As if the thought of Cerberus betraying you could never ever cross your mind!

[The Elder King]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


- TIM and Cerberus are the only ones actively opposing the reapers. The only ones to believe they're there. The only ones that will try to get the maximum out of this.
- The reapers are coming. It is now known when they will arrive.Could be months, could be years. Any advantage we can get over them will be cruical. And who knows what is in that base.
- regardless of how muhc Shep trusts TIM, throwing away a golden opportunity like that, out of some self-righteousness? Smells like pretnesious BS. Shep thinks to highly of himself and his assesment of others, that he's willing to risk the entire galaxy based on it?
- Unlike the player, Shep doesn't know he's the designated Hero nad he will suceed without the base. Opting ot destroy hte base requires a lot of out-of-character knowledge and thinking.

I agree that keeping the CB could give a huge technology development, or something that could help in defeating the Reapers. Still, in most of my playthrough I decided to destroy TIM. And this before any news regarding Cerberus came out.  My Shepard (at least, most of them. I kept the base in some playthorugh) knew that the base could help, but he doesn't want to use it. If something bad will happen because of that, he's ready to take full responsibility. Maybe it's stupit, but that's how I decided to play my main Shep.
And I would really love if Bioware decided to make things more difficult for those who destroyed the base. In most of my playthroughs I choose the Paragon lines not because they are Paragons, but because they're right for me. That's the reason most of my Shepard had a good amount of Renegade points.

[The Elder King]

BlueDemonX wrote...


I´m sure hundreds of posters already said this: As if the thought of Cerberus betraying you could never ever cross your mind!

When I choose to keep the base, never. We are allies. Or at least, the though of Cerberus siding with the  Reapers didn't cross my mind. The most stupid thing I saw in this series (in my opinion).

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I guess that's how you'd see if you'd dismiss everything.

No, that's how anyone with a brain would see it.

It's so clear that Cerberus doesn't care about the rest of the galaxy. And when TIM flat out says that Cerberus is humanity, I don't think he'd use the base with the best of intentions to help the galaxy survive.

[The Elder King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I guess that's how you'd see if you'd dismiss everything.

No, that's how anyone with a brain would see it.

It's so clear that Cerberus doesn't care about the rest of the galaxy. And when TIM flat out says that Cerberus is humanity, I don't think he'd use the base with the best of intentions to help the galaxy survive.

Saying that Cerberus doesn't care about the rest of the galaxy isn't completely right. Even if TIM doesn't care about other species, that doesn't meand that everyone who work in Cerberus are xenophobic.

[Someone With Mass]

BlueDemonX wrote...
I´m sure hundreds of posters already said this: As if the thought of Cerberus betraying you could never ever cross your mind!

Everyone on the Normandy that isn't Cerberus saw some betrayal coming too. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that some organization that's built up on deceit and lies would turn its back on you.

[Someone With Mass]

hhh89 wrote...
Saying that Cerberus doesn't care about the rest of the galaxy isn't completely right. Even if TIM doesn't care about other species, that doesn't meand that everyone who work in Cerberus are xenophobic.

TIM is the leader of Cerberus. I don't care what some Alliance rejects think, because they aren't making the big decisions.

[The Elder King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Saying that Cerberus doesn't care about the rest of the galaxy isn't completely right. Even if TIM doesn't care about other species, that doesn't meand that everyone who work in Cerberus are xenophobic.

TIM is the leader of Cerberus. I don't care what some Alliance rejects think, because they aren't making the big decisions.

There aren't only Alliance rejects who think in that way (and btw, the two engineer were right on what they did). Kelly thinks in that way too. Miranda probably isn't xenophobic, that same goes for the cook.
Though I agree with you, that TIM is the one who have power. That doesn't mean that Cerberus as a whole doesn't care for the galaxy. TIM think in that way, not every Cerberus operatives.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[The Elder King]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TIM cares about the rest of the galaxy within the context of "how necessary are they for us to survive the Reapers?"

His reports outright say the quarians will likely be needed and he even dispatches forces to make sure the geth don't retaliate against the quarians after Haestrom.

That's my problem with him. I don't say that it's a wrong logic, but generally my Shep thinks about all the galaxy's safety, and doesn't view other species in how they could help humans survive. Simply, my Shep (some of my Sheps) and TIM have different view.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 juillet 2011 - 11:43 .

[The Elder King]

Saphra Deden wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

That's my problem with him. I don't say that it's a wrong logic, but generally my Shep thinks about all the galaxy's safety, and doesn't view other species in how they could help humans survive. Simply, my Shep (some of my Sheps) and TIM have different view.

Your Shepard sounds like a bleeding heart.

Ultimately other species are rivals, at best. Even when our goals are aligned.

Could you explain the expression "bleeding heart"? I think I understand what you meant, but English isn't my native language.
And about the relationship with other species, that's not necessary. In ME2, if you saved the Council, the human-turian relationship seemed to be good. They're working together to protect the Citadel, and have started to have better economical relationship.
I'm not saying that your logic is wrong. Simply, I have different view. I prefer to cooperate with other species. That doesn't meand that humanity has to agree to everything that other species say. We have to try to reach the other species military and economical level, without forcing other species to go down. The turians were almost unknown at the time of the Krogan rebellion, but they are now the strongest military species, and one of the leading race. They cooperate with other species, they are not rivals.Why humanity can't follow that way?
Plus, in some playthrough I followed your way. I tend to create different Shepard, with different view and opinions about the galaxy, humanity and other species. But my main Shep is the one I described early.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...
Let's be realistic here.


You have two choices, blow up the base or give it to Cerberus.

Blow up the base and you stop the human abductions, you learn some more things about the Reapers, but that's it.

Give it to Cerberus and then what? The only useful thing that could come out of the base is a 1) superweapon of sorts, or 2) several advancements in technolodgy.

1) The most powerful superweapon that could come out of it is a Reaper. Anything else would be less powerful. Why? Do you think that you can develop superweapons better than the Reapers can? I just...doubt that.

A Reaper would stand no chance against a Reaper fleet. Therefore, a Reaper is only useful against defeating aliens.

2) What kind of advancements are we talking about? Do you think that the HR is in a state that would carry around armour or it's main gun? Or that the Collectors, a race that communicates with telepathy and by Harbinger itself, would have blueprints lying around? Without Harbinger the Collectors are mindless drones. Therefore, they can only build a Reaper if Harbinger is assuming control of the Collector General and giving instructions.

And still, even if somehow the advancements will make a ship as powerful as a Reaper, and even if Cerberus decides to share them all with the aliens, the Reapers still have superior numbers.

Therefore again, these resources could only be harmful towards aliens and useless towards Reapers.

--
This discussion could have been logical if we didn't know how Cerberus would end up like.

Attacking you. Now there is zero profit from the CB, if there ever was (there wasn't) in the past.

Wrong.

You assume that develloping a better gun than you currently have is pointless if the enemy has a even bigger one. That is just sheer stupidity. The goal is to close the gap between you and the enemy by as much as posssible. Every little bit helps.
wiht a more powerfull gun, oyu might need 3 ships to take out 1 reaper insted of 5. Whihc drasticly increases your chances of survival.

ANY advantage yo ucan get - no matter how small - against an enemy that will anihilate all life in the galaxy is NOT useless.

Your assertion that anything that comes from the base is only usefull agaisnt aliens and not against Reapers (reapers are alins b.t.we. is utter trash.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cerberus isn't anti-aliens, but Pro-humans. Big difference. TIM doesn't hate or want other aliens exterminated.
He just wants a very sensible thing politicly - for humans to have enough power and influence that no one can dominate them. Because that's how things simply work in the real world. We humans are more similar to eachother than we are to any potential aliens, and take a look at the political landscape. I'm no nationalist, but the world and political/power structures in the end always are. The strong always have more power and influence than the weak.

Cooperation and holding hands is nice - but only if you have a big stick to make sure you're not being dragged by that hand.