1939 réponses à ce sujet

[nhsk]

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

[Icinix]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

That's the mentality that makes enemies.

Just because equality is difficult to achieve doesn't mean we shouldn't try and immediately resort to cavemen mentality.

Except, if you haven't noticed, not everyone has the whole equality mentality. Unless you want to go conquer other species and force them to adopt your mentality of equality, you're just going to have to deal with it.

If you think looking out for yourself is cavemen mentality, then you must despair at how every government on Earth is run by cavemen.

....actually yes, I do despair how every government on Earth is run by cavemen.

[John Renegade]

nhsk wrote...

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

You mean that resentment, hate and conflict galaxy felt towards asari for the last two thousand years?

Modifié par John Renegade, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .

[nhsk]

John Renegade wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

You mean that resentment, hate and conflict galaxy felt towards asari for the last two thousand years?

No actually I was speaking about our world, I was talking about the resentment, hate and conflict the middle east have felt towards USA and her close allies for the last 60 years.

[Someone With Mass]

nhsk wrote...

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

That.

Having a strong military is good, but the way it's handled according to Cerberus is a short-term goal at best.

[Inverness Moon]

nhsk wrote...

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

The difference here is in how we interpret dominance. When TIM says human dominance I think of the dominant military, political, and economic power that the United States has had for a significant amount of time.

Some people think it means TIM becoming the Emperor Palpatine of Mass Effect and creating a galactic empire. I think that is ridiculous of course.

Someone With Mass wrote...

That.

Having a strong military is good, but the way it's handled according to Cerberus is a short-term goal at best.

Your bias when it comes to Cerberus prevents you from looking at TIM's goals sensibly.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[nhsk]

Inverness Moon wrote...

The difference here is in how we interpret dominance. When TIM says human dominance I think of the dominant military, political, and economic power that the United States has had for a significant amount of time.

Some people think it means TIM becoming the Emperor Palpatine of Mass Effect and creating a galactic empire. I think that is ridiculous of course.

I'm not willing to take that chance with 1 man who isn't elected by popular vote and rules supreme without having a parliament of some sort to keep him in check.

[Inverness Moon]

nhsk wrote...

I'm not willing to take that chance with 1 man who isn't elected by popular vote and rules supreme without having a parliament of some sort to keep him in check.

Take a chance? I just called the idea a joke. In other words, utterly unrealistic.

[John Renegade]

nhsk wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

You mean that resentment, hate and conflict galaxy felt towards asari for the last two thousand years?

No actually I was speaking about our world, I was talking about the resentment, hate and conflict the middle east have felt towards USA and her close allies for the last 60 years.

Well, human-human relations in the past don't matter, because we are talking about interspecies relations in Mass Effect galaxy. And there we have a direct proof of a species being dominant for over two thousand years without retaliation from the others. The other species actually competed for asari favor.

[nhsk]

Inverness Moon wrote...

nhsk wrote...

I'm not willing to take that chance with 1 man who isn't elected by popular vote and rules supreme without having a parliament of some sort to keep him in check.

Take a chance? I just called the idea a joke. In other words, utterly unrealistic.

Not trying to invoke Godwin's Law but in 1923 it was also utterly
unrealistic that Herr Hitler would lead the world into it's most
destructive conflict to date.

In the time of the the Spanish
Conquistadors completely destroying the Aztec Empire, that was also
completely unrealistic in terms of manpower. They was way under strength
in terms of numbers but had way superior tech and they brought diseases
that the Aztecs were not accustomed to.

Finding a dangerous idea unrealistic and dismissing it thereafter does not make the idea and the danger go away, just look at how well that went for Councilor Valern

Anyway, it's been a long day for me and it is getting late in my country, 11:57 pm here so going to bed.

Have a wonderfull evening/day/morning

Modifié par nhsk, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:58 .

[Inverness Moon]

nhsk wrote...

Finding a dangerous idea unrealistic and dismissing it thereafter does not make the idea and the danger go away, just look at how well that went for Councilor Valern

I'm not going to entertain this line of thought. The suggestion is absurd based on what we know about TIM and the Mass Effect universe. I should not have to explain why.

[CuseGirl]

Some people think it means TIM becoming the Emperor Palpatine of Mass Effect and creating a galactic empire. I think that is ridiculous of course.

UNLIMITED POWWWWEERRRRRR!!!

[img]http://www.revelationspace.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/b23851297.jpg[/img]

Modifié par CuseGirl, 18 juillet 2011 - 02:00 .

[CuseGirl]

was my post deleted? Mod, my bad

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

nhsk wrote...

In the time of the the Spanish
Conquistadors completely destroying the Aztec Empire, that was also
completely unrealistic in terms of manpower. They was way under strength
in terms of numbers but had way superior tech and they brought diseases
that the Aztecs were not accustomed to.

The conquistadors had tens of thousands (or it might have been hundreds of thousands) of native allies. The Aztecs were not well liked by the smaller tribes.

A lot happened during that period Fall of Tenochtitlan

[Goneaviking]

John Renegade wrote...

nhsk wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

nhsk wrote...

Keeping a levelled military is somewhat different from "dominating" other species.
Seeking understanding and pursuing equal diplomatic rights, terms, agreements brings peace.
Keeping something under your foot serves only to grow resentment, hate and conflict.

And empires rise and fall, powerbalances switch.

You mean that resentment, hate and conflict galaxy felt towards asari for the last two thousand years?

No actually I was speaking about our world, I was talking about the resentment, hate and conflict the middle east have felt towards USA and her close allies for the last 60 years.

Well, human-human relations in the past don't matter, because we are talking about interspecies relations in Mass Effect galaxy. And there we have a direct proof of a species being dominant for over two thousand years without retaliation from the others. The other species actually competed for asari favor.

They don't seem to have made a habit of abusing their dominance, and their self-image as diplomats seeking mutually agreeable resolutions to disputes could have something to do with the lack of open resentment.

For all the griping people do about the council they don't seem to actually screw outsiders around and directly exploit them which would make a big difference in how they're seen by others, as much as we all like to rail about tyranny and dictators and what not much of humanity is still willing to accept a benign dictatorship that keeps the civilisation functioning and doesn't bring the boot down too heavily on the necks of the people.

I wouldn't envisage a situation where the system that has served everyone pretty well is turned on its head being being regarded favourably by anyone other than the new elites, particularly in the short term.

[Inverness Moon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They create a league of special agents with the right to murder at will.

While I agree with the rest of your points, I don't think the idea behind the spectres is unsound. The spectres are an acknowledgement that laws and such can't always be applied to every situation, and that sometimes they need to be bended or pushed aside to deal with a bigger problem.

Just because spectres can kill people at will doesn't mean the Council just lets them.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 18 juillet 2011 - 02:57 .

[McAwesum]

I haven't been back to the forums in a while and have just seen this thread.

I think the reason to destroy the Collector Base is to deny Cerberus the Reaper technology. But EDI still is able to get some data on the Reapers and Collectors. After they got that data the rest of the base is just a tool for the Reapers that won't bring any good to anyone other than Cerberus if even that. If you actually play a Paragon playthrough and save the Normandy crew and most of your squadmates; during the final cutscene Shepard is handed a datapad that has some schematics or something on the Reapers. Keeping the Collector Base sounds stupid to me. Since you leave it in the care of Cerberus which no good can come out of. For me, being a Paragon means making the right choice and making the honorable choice. If I'm going to fight the Reapers then I am going to kick their ass on my own terms without turning into a monster myself.

[Paula Deen]

I think if you metagame, then taking out the Collector Base is a safe choice.

I think if you DON'T, and view the situation from the perspective of the characters, saving the Collector Base is by far the most sensible choice. Who cares if Cerberus has a huge tech advantage if the Reapers are defeated? I think we've seen strong evidence that without the aging Illusive Man, Cerberus isn't nearly as powerful.

The small chance of finding a viable weapon against the Reapers from that base is worth the price, without a doubt. I'm just worried that BioWare will turn the decision into something like the "normal ME3 ending except with Cerberus/Humanity standing on top" instead of "war with Reapers won with far fewer casualties" or something.

[Dave of Canada]

Paula Deen wrote...

Who cares if Cerberus has a huge tech advantage if the Reapers are defeated?

Pretty much. The tech advantage isn't too great when you consider the size of the group and how everybody will be studying the Reaper corpses upon their destruction. Any tech advantage gained for Cerberus post-Reapers would be for a relatively short duration as others will catch up (unless the Council or something outlaws studying Reaper corpses, which will only mean they'll do it behind the scenes instead).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:12 .

[Paula Deen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Paula Deen wrote...

Who cares if Cerberus has a huge tech advantage if the Reapers are defeated?

Pretty much. The tech advantage isn't too great when you consider the size of the group and how everybody will be studying the Reaper corpses upon their destruction. Any tech advantage gained for Cerberus post-Reapers would be for a relatively short duration as others will catch up (unless the Council or something outlaws studying Reaper corpses, which will only mean they'll do it behind the scenes instead).

Exactly. Cerberus will have PLENTY of Reaper tech to study after the war is over. And even if Cerberus does somehow maintain an advantage, so what? They're a relatively small organization with limited funding (building a single advanced frigate took up a considerable amount of income) that might be lessened in the chaos of the war. And Shepard and Co. could always fight them afterwards. Or just expose them.

Even if you mined every bit of data from the Collector Base's databanks, there's still all of the machinery and samples there. Maybe you could make some kind of biovirus to severely weaken the Reapers based on what you find in Base? Maybe you could make some kind of discovery with how the Reapers are built to design an effective weapon against them?

[SkittlesKat96]

I destroyed it because of it might indoctrinate people (and I'm not going to risk that) and because I don't trust TIM with it, he'd use it for pro-human dominance and he just isn't a trustworthy person.

I doubt he'd go around genociding aliens (I don't think he hates non-humans) but I still don't trust him.