1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Well...BW has said it won't end like a traditional war story, For all we know the reapers could see the determination and willingness to cooperate and be like "Fine you guys aren't all bad we'll just be going then." and collect the reaper corpses and fly out to another galaxy,Or they could kill everyone,or they could kill most things and put the survivors on one planet. Point is, it's Apples vs oranges til we know how it effects us or to quote Legion " The heretics say 1 is less then 2,Geth say 2 is less then 3". Neither is "wrong"(That we know of/TBA) just different.


Either way,one side will probably get to "nanananabooboo" the other at the end

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Your bias when it comes to Cerberus prevents you from looking at TIM's goals sensibly.

You are really not the right person to talk to me about bias.

[darthnick427]

Medhia Nox wrote...

TIM was only one of several reasons.

1) The Collectors were tools of the Reapers.

They "Collect" DNA and put it through their juicer and create a "Proto-Reaper" (whether or not it would have been "finished" or placed into a giant cuttlefish ship isn't answered to my knowledge).

A) I saw no reason for the Reapers to simply leave a cache of Reaper tech that had nothing to do with making juice out of humans. All the tech we've obtained so far (which presumably is only the Thanix Cannon) - was taken from Sovereign - not anything related to the Collectors.

The Collector base was a giant hive constructed to house Prothean-Collector drones. The entire ship is covered in "cocoons" and we have no reason to believe that the basic amenities essential to human (or alien) habitation are even in place. We know only that it has an atmosphere. To become operational - places to store and prepare food, sleeping quarters, a bridge (we're not even sure how the Collector ship is piloted) - amongst other things, would have to be put in place.

2) Retrofitting the Collector base would take vast amounts of resources - and more importantly, manpower.

The Reapers are coming - and yes, I can let TIM devote his entire organization to trying to figure out how to operate their galactic juicer and if it will even be any help at all. OR - I can destroy the Reaper base and have TIM devote his time to combating the Reapers directly.

This is neither pragmatic - nor idealistic - it is simply a call to make. Wasting time with the Collector ship might yield nothing (or worse, Indoctrination) - or, it might be a rousing success. There's no margin for error - but a choice needed to be made - I felt that I've already battled the Reapers so far without a giant asteroid juicer, so the gamble wasn't worth the risk.

3) Protecting the Juicer until we could discover the ancient secrets the Reapers foolishly left on board their automated asteroid ship.

The Reapers know where the Collector ship is - and if they don't send one of their own to retrieve it, they'll send Geth, or husks, or whatever. I can't waste a fleet, and ground troops, protecting something that may - or may not - yield results. There are entire homeworlds out there that need these soldiers. Earth being one of them - and if TIM really wants to save Earth, he might want to consider not being a chronic gambler.

4) The Reapers are "supposed" to be intelligent.

If I were going to build a juicer manned by indoctrinated drone Ex-Protheans... I would have foreseen the possibility of it being taken.

IF I were going to put super secret caches of uber-tech on board in the off chance that an organic race would land and steal it so that they might beat me... I would put a self-destruct option on the Juicer.

Furthermore - as Shepard, being a lowly organic and thinking of these things... then I have to ask. If there's ANYTHING worth taking on the Juicer... "why" are the Reapers just letting me have it? How many "oversights" can the Reapers make before one of them becomes intentional.

I believe the Reapers are allowing us to have the Collector base - it has nothing to do with moral good or evil... it has to do with a "species" of Ancient Uber-Cuttlefish Spaceship Monsters thinking of various contingencies... in this case, organic greed or desperation.

====

So, for all these reasons that are about to be refuted by everyone who made the choice to keep it. I blew up the Juicer... err... Collector Base.

Pissing TIM off was just an added bonus.

This pretty much sums up my reasons for blowing the base up

[Someone With Mass]

Medhia Nox wrote...

*snip*

Yeah, that pretty much sums it all up.

[Dave of Canada]

Never mind. No point.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

So, for all these reasons that are about to be refuted by everyone who made the choice to keep it. I blew up the Juicer... err... Collector Base. 

I'll take this duty!

Medhia Nox wrote...

A) I saw no reason for the Reapers to simply leave a cache of Reaper tech that had nothing to do with making juice out of humans. All the tech we've obtained so far (which presumably is only the Thanix Cannon) - was taken from Sovereign - not anything related to the Collectors.

Three things (I feel like I'm forgetting a fourth):

• We've got the Reaper factory within our grasp, while it's unknown (I think) that the Human Reaper would've been put inside the squid-shell, it's still a factory which would've created the Human Reaper to completion. The Reapers wouldn't have removed features from the Human Reaper, it would've had the same capabilities as any other Reaper. Sovereign salvage provided much knowledge and technology, the Human Reaper's remains could provide the same. Maybe more (or less) so, depending on if it's "infant" state's importance.

• Collector technology is considered the greatest technology available in the galaxy (because it's Reaper tech), people would fill their weird quotas (dozens of left handed Quarians or something weird like that) to snag a piece of their technology (which was compared to winning the lottery). We're now treading in their base, it's not much of a stretch to assume everything Collector-wise we've seen (and more) so far is available here.

• It was mentioned on Horizon that the Husks there were different and probably brought from somewhere else, we arrived to the Collector Base and we're swarmed by dozens of husks (while they usually simply "juiced" the humans). Once again, it isn't a stretch to assume the Husks brought over to Horizon were from here.

The Collector base was a giant hive constructed to house Prothean-Collector drones. The entire ship is covered in "cocoons" and we have no reason to believe that the basic amenities essential to human (or alien) habitation are even in place. We know only that it has an atmosphere. To become operational - places to store and prepare food, sleeping quarters, a bridge (we're not even sure how the Collector ship is piloted) - amongst other things, would have to be put in place.

We're essentially living on the Normandy already, why can't Cerberus researchers positioned at the Omega-4 relay / Collector Base do the same (assuming they don't go to Omega after their shift)? The Collector Base doesn't have to be comfy and habitable to be any use.

2) Retrofitting the Collector base would take vast amounts of resources - and more importantly, manpower.

The Reapers are coming - and yes, I can let TIM devote his entire organization to trying to figure out how to operate their galactic juicer and if it will even be any help at all. OR - I can destroy the Reaper base and have TIM devote his time to combating the Reapers directly.

And do what, exactly? We're unprepared for the Reapers, we don't have much of an idea what we're going to be facing, in terms of defense against the Reapers we're going in blind and all technological advancements have been adaptations of Reaper technology.

With the destroyed base, what could they do for "combating the Reapers directly"? Everything that assisted the galaxy in defeating the Reapers were gained by reverse engineering Reaper technology, the greatest ally provided by Cerberus (EDI) was reverse engineered Reaper tech.

Reverse engineering all (shown) Collector's technology, ignoring all potential Reaper intel and whatever else could be on the Base, is a significant enough bonus that could possibly assist greatly when the Reapers arrive. They've already stepped foward and reverse engineered some of it from Horizon, offering them the motherload isn't going to slow their engineers.

And I don't think they have to learn how to operate the "juicer" part of the Collector Base for any potential benefits, they just have to analyze it.

3) Protecting the Juicer until we could discover the ancient secrets the Reapers foolishly left on board their automated asteroid ship.

The Reapers know where the Collector ship is - and if they don't send one of their own to retrieve it, they'll send Geth, or husks, or whatever. I can't waste a fleet, and ground troops, protecting something that may - or may not - yield results. There are entire homeworlds out there that need these soldiers. Earth being one of them - and if TIM really wants to save Earth, he might want to consider not being a chronic gambler.

If you've completed the Legion loyalty mission at the time, your Shepard knows at the time:

• The Heretics are returning to the core Geth, no longer seeing Reapers as their saviors.

or

• The Heretics have been destroyed.

We know Husks cannot operate ships, we've seen huskified crew of some ships adrift in Mass Effect 1.

They don't have a "whatever" available to them.

... and who says the Base must be defended when the Reapers arrive? Rig it to explode with a remote detonator (we've seen TIM is capable of transmitting to EDI, so the bomb could be set to blow manually), leave it undefended (what do the Reapers gain from capturing their own technology?), have Cerberus study the salvaged tech in their facilities (something they always do).

That and i don't see Turians/Krogans/Asari/Salarians suddenly feel interested in defending the Omega 4 Relay when they don't know what's on the other side.

4) The Reapers are "supposed" to be intelligent.

If I were going to build a juicer manned by indoctrinated drone Ex-Protheans... I would have foreseen the possibility of it being taken.

That's why they built it in the galactic core which required a Reaper IFF.

IF I were going to put super secret caches of uber-tech on board in the off chance that an organic race would land and steal it so that they might beat me... I would put a self-destruct option on the Juicer.

Reapers blow it up and all that changes from the Paragon scenario is a handful of scientists died. Or they should've blown it up when Shepard was there, though the Reapers were never too smart in the first place.

Furthermore - as Shepard, being a lowly organic and thinking of these things... then I have to ask. If there's ANYTHING worth taking on the Juicer... "why" are the Reapers just letting me have it? How many "oversights" can the Reapers make before one of them becomes intentional.

They didn't let you just take it, they sent Occulus, Collectors, Human Reaper (if it wasn't acting on basic instinct), the Collector Ship, millions of Seeker Swarms and a lot of husks. In addition to the entire galactic core thing.

I believe the Reapers are allowing us to have the Collector base - it has nothing to do with moral good or evil... it has to do with a "species" of Ancient Uber-Cuttlefish Spaceship Monsters thinking of various contingencies... in this case, organic greed or desperation.

Or they didn't expect any species to interrupt their cycle and actually know of their existence, so they had to send their factory workers against us and hoped nobody would do anything against them while they were creating their pet project Reaper. Which was happening until Cerberus (an unknown variable in the Reaper plans as they didn't know Cerberus knew about their existence and coming) stepped in and pimp slapped them with the Shepard glove.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:04 .

[Inverness Moon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

snip

Well this has several flaws:

1A: The base was there to make a reaper, not tang. To make a reaper you need offensive and defensive systems. You also seem to be forgetting that the collectors have a history of trading advanced technology. Where do you think that comes from? Finally, the base has a dock for the ship. It's common sense that the base would be capable of constructing or at least maintaining the ship. That means offensive and defensive systems.

1B: Are you serious? You seriously think it matters whether or not it is habitable? It's not like people can't just live on ships docked at the base. Or bring in their own habitation and set it up (which would be more risky). This is ridiculous.

2: Retrofitting? Why are you assuming the best way to make use of it is to retrofit it or try to operate it as-is? It certainly isn't.

3: So what? You take as much time as you can before the reapers arrive to remove what you can or research what can't be removed, then when the reapers arrive, blow the rest up.

4: The reapers already went to great lengths to protect it with the collectors and the relay. The graveyard of ships should be a pretty big clue-in. If you think the reapers are just letting you have it after everything you went through in ME2 then you have an unrealistic perspective on the situation. The reapers may be intelligent, but they're not all-knowing as some people seem to think. They can't plan for everything. And what are these "oversights" you're talking about?

If this really sums it all up for so many, then I'm very disappointed. Though I suppose I shouldn't act like that is a recent event.

Edit: Oh, it seems like we're on the same wavelength, Dave.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:22 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Damned if you do,damned if you don't.

[Someone With Mass]

Retrofitting the Collector base is actually the best thing to do, since it's surrounded by debris, black holes and exploding suns. It's way more cost efficient than constantly flying ships back and forth through the relay.

[Goneaviking]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

For all the griping people do about the council they don't seem to actually screw outsiders around and directly exploit them...

Are you blind? They exploited the krogan as fodder in their war against the rachni. They left the quarians to be murdered and then kicked them off the Citadel in their hour of need. They cast aside the needs of the batarians and used the humans as a shield against the Terminus. Then stood by while humantiy was besieged by first the geth and then the Collectors.

They create a league of special agents with the right to murder at will.

True enough about the krogans in the Rachni war but that was an extreme example in dire circumstances. It's not the kind of constant interference that really tends to ****** off imperial outliers.

The quarians showed reckless disregard for council laws by creating the geth and brought about their own destruction. It would have been nice if they'd received some humanitarian aid and been resettled, but ultimately they weren't screwed over by not receiving support that they weren't promised to confront a threat they created for themselves. As for their embassy's removal, well they could no longer support their claim to it without a homeworld and an ability to meaningfully influence the larger community.

The council was under no obligation to interfere in the conflict between humans and batarians, and given that the Batarians' aggression had been a constant source of problems for their neighbours including colonies of some of the council races it's hardly a surprise that they decided to choose neutrality in that run-in. The ME wiki has this to say about the Batarians:

Sometime around 1785 CE, a batarian fleet bombarded the salarian colony world of Mannovai; in 1913, the Batarian Hegemony annexed the independent asari colony of Esan; and in 2115, Citadel forces skirmished with batarian forces on the planet Enael.

Sounds like the batarians got back some of what they'd given out for the previous few millennia and didn't like the taste any.

When the geth began attacking human colonies the council again chose neutrality, because it wasn't in their interest to fight humanity's wars for them and they weren't obligated to do so. When it was proven that a rogue spectre was involved they deputised Shepard to go after him. Shortly thereafter the collectors began attacking human colonies in the terminus systems, which was outside council jurisdiction to start with and even if they had been responsible for policing the colonies they didn't know who was attacking them. Presumably they would have assumed Batarians, and wading into that conflict would likely have started a full scale war they were uninterested in pursuing.

Given that they hadn't gone to full-scale war to defend asaria and salarian colonies from batarian aggression, why would anyone anticipate they'd do so to defend human colonies?

As for spectres, yes that's not a concept I'm particularly enamoured with myself. That said, I still don't think it it adds up to screwing over outsiders that I'm talking about.

[Darth Death]

I think way too many people here are over thinking this. The answer is quite simple than most would believe... And perhaps that's the problem.

[SkittlesKat96]

Krogan exploited ^? If I recall the Krogan actually wanted to fight the Rachni and be in that war (at least according to Wrex, but I can't remember the exact dialog.)

[Someone With Mass]

Not to mention that Cerberus tried to use rachni and geth in a similar fashion, only they had no choice in the matter.

[CuseGirl]

Darth Death wrote...

I think way too many people here are over thinking this. The answer is quite simple than most would believe... And perhaps that's the problem.

Yea, a lot of arguing here about the intentions of imaginary alien races. The way I see it is, people who are selfish or overly militant would keep the base because they can use it against others. People who would blow up the base dont want that technology to fall into the hands of anyone because in every corner of the galaxy, there's some1 out there who will try to build a human reaper or make salarian husks, etc etc etc.

[John Renegade]

@SkittlesKat96: Exploitation and willingness of the exploited to fight are not mutually exclusive. The Council still used someone else who until then didn't even know that other species existed to fight and die for them.

@Mass: The entire point of this argument is to show that Council is no better than Cerberus not the other way around.

[Kaiser Shepard]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Krogan exploited ^? If I recall the Krogan actually wanted to fight the Rachni and be in that war (at least according to Wrex, but I can't remember the exact dialog.)

What someone wants to do isn't always what's best for them. The salarians and asari, as the supposed moral superiors they claim to be, should've known better.

[ThePwener]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Krogan exploited ^? If I recall the Krogan actually wanted to fight the Rachni and be in that war (at least according to Wrex, but I can't remember the exact dialog.)

What someone wants to do isn't always what's best for them. The salarians and asari, as the supposed moral superiors they claim to be, should've known better.

It was indeed a mistake to uplift the Krogan and exploit them. Mordin says that they made a huge mistake by doing so, turning the Krogan into nothing more then weapons and tools.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Not to mention that Cerberus tried to use rachni and geth in a similar fashion, only they had no choice in the matter.

It's kind of funny, I didn't think you'd compare the Council to Cerberus. Which you know, proves our point?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Not to mention that Cerberus tried to use rachni and geth in a similar fashion, only they had no choice in the matter.

It's kind of funny, I didn't think you'd compare the Council to Cerberus. Which you know, proves our point?

So? At least the krogans weren't mindless slaves.

What Cerberus is doing is akin to Saren's actions on Virmire. Only difference is that they fail at it hard. Repeatedly.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

So? At least the krogans weren't mindless slaves.

Grasping at straws? Isn't that what you said was what we always did?

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Grasping at straws? Isn't that what you said was what we always did?

The krogans agreed to fight the rachni. I don't think the rachni and the geth Cerberus experimented on had any free will.

Then again, Cerberus got exactly what they deserved.

As for the base, I'm not giving it to some incompetent idiot who can't even control his own agents or cells, no matter how much he thinks his goal is just.

[BiasedParagon]

I can see only one or two lines that'll relate to the whole Collector base. When asking around why the Illusive Man is after you they could say "Probably because you destroyed the Collector Base" or maybe when you finally meet the Illusive Man he'll say "I appreciate you for not destroying the Collector Base because now I'm using it against you and it's made my job so much easier."