1939 réponses à ce sujet

[LordPennlocke]

Keeping the base and utilizing it's tech would pretty much be playing into want Sovereign mentioned. "...Our technology, by using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Pretty much why I destroyed the base. Sticking it to TIM was just an added bonus.

[Inverness Moon]

 

mauro2222 wrote...
Because we are not ready.Technology applied before cultural progress is equal to doom.

There are three things wrong with that.

First, that seems quite disproven by the discovery of the data cache on Mars that "jumped technology forward 200 years."

Second, you're not in any position to judge whether humanity or anyone else is ready for that technology, especially since we don't even know what is in the case.

Finally, you don't have the luxury of not taking whatever technology you can get when you're facing certain doom known as the Reapers. And they do a much better job of killing people than runaway technological progression.

LordPennlocke wrote...

Keeping the base and utilizing it's tech would pretty much be playing into want Sovereign mentioned. "...Our technology, by using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Pretty much why I destroyed the base. Sticking it to TIM was just an added bonus.

Except that is completely wrong.

First, do you really think it would be part of the Reapers' plans for the galaxy to gain the same level of technology as them? Obviously not.

Secondly, if we kill the Reapers it will no longer be theirs.

Thirdly, Sovereign was obviously referring to the mass relays and how people rely on mass effect technology.

Fourthly, the fact that the Reapers use the same technology means they play by the same rules. If you have a powerful enough gun you can one-shot a Reaper. If the technology from the base allows ships to be upgraded so dreadnoughts can one-shot Reapers now too, are you saying that is a bad thing?

Finally, technology takes a lot of time to develop. The Reapers are on the move and the last thing the galaxy has is time. If you're smart you're going to take what you can get because you have no alternative other than just blowing it up like some do and hoping everything turns out okay in the end.

Anyhow, I'm pretty tired of how everybody always flies this quote around as if its proving a point without really understanding it.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 15 juillet 2011 - 07:31 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

LordPennlocke wrote...

Keeping the base and utilizing it's tech would pretty much be playing into want Sovereign mentioned. "...Our technology, by using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Erhm, no. The Collector Base and all the technology it contained were never intended to fall into the hands of the galaxy, same goes for Sovereign itself.

[Drone223]

The fact that 99% of Ceberues experiments end up with almost the entire project staff getting killed and the fact that TIM set us into a trap without our knowledge is enough to blow up the base, also even if you get anything usefull TIM will proberly use it for his own agenda

[Inverness Moon]

Drone223 wrote...

The fact that 99% of Ceberues experiments end up with almost the entire project staff getting killed and the fact that TIM set us into a trap without our knowledge is enough to blow up the base, also even if you get anything usefull TIM will proberly use it for his own agenda

Except that's wrong. Because you're either ignorant or not being honest with yourself if you think failures don't get more attention that successes. Cerberus doesn't get Shepard over to clean up their successes.

The reason TIM sent you into that trap was entirely reasonable. You don't have to like being on the receiving end but it's dishonest to think it wasn't "necessary" as Mordin says.

As for TIM's agenda, that happens to be fighting the reapers, which is okay in my book. It's better than what most everyone else is doing.

[Someone With Mass]

If I had the option to give the base to anyone else but Cerberus, I'd have saved it.

But the fact still remains that Cerberus can't do any experiment without getting the staff killed or jeopardizing the security of the known galaxy in the progress, so they don't deserve the potential valuable technology that might be inside that glorified blender.

Not to mention in the events in ME: Invasion, where they royally screwed up again, because they apparently can't learn from their past mistakes.

Or that they might turn the technology against us, since the Incompetent Man can never regain control of any of his cells or subordinates once they're lost. Just salvage what's left and try again like if nothing happened.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Except that's wrong. Because you're either ignorant or not being honest with yourself if you think failures don't get more attention that successes. Cerberus doesn't get Shepard over to clean up their successes.

The reason TIM sent you into that trap was entirely reasonable. You don't have to like being on the receiving end but it's dishonest to think it wasn't "necessary" as Mordin says.

As for TIM's agenda, that happens to be fighting the reapers, which is okay in my book. It's better than what most everyone else is doing.

And yet, their successes have almost never helped Shepard or anyone outside their organization, so why should we even care?

[bleetman]

The day I see a group able to actually study any reaper tech whatsoever without it all going horribly, inevitably wrong is the day I think about preserving any of it. Seemingly everyone who so much as looks at the stuff ends up a frothing, gibbering madman.

[Ultai]

Udina becomes Councilor no matter what. Ceberus gets their tech no matter what. Bioware's slowly easing in a few canon situations for future ME games and they somewhat have to, that's what it looks like to me anyway. That is unless future ME games and god forbid an mass effect mmo is set a few hundred years later so they don't have to really make mention of it.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And yet, their successes have almost never helped Shepard or anyone outside their organization, so why should we even care?

Bringing Shepard back to life was probably the best thing Cerberus has done and more than outweighs all the bad they've done put together.

They also succeeded in developing EDI based on reaper tech salvaged from Sovereign. Shepard's mission would have not succeeded without her.

Also, you shouldn't assume you know all that much about what Cerberus does anyways. It takes things like the Shadow Broker's dossiers to reveal a lot of things we don't know, and I doubt there isn't more we don't know.

"Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished."

I particularly liked that bit.

bleetman wrote...

The day I see a group able to actually study any reaper tech whatsoever without it all going horribly, inevitably wrong is the day I think about preserving any of it. Seemingly everyone who so much as looks at the stuff ends up a frothing, gibbering madman.

I haven't seen any reports about Turians being indoctrinated while they studied Sovereign's main gun to develop the thannix cannon.

Of course, then there is EDI, who is based on reaper tech.

Anyhow, if you keep blowing up reaper tech without bothering to try to understand how it works or how to prevent indoctrination, you shouldn't expect different results.

[Massadonious1]

I wish people would stop using the Thanix cannon as an example.

Modifying reaper tech =/= Standing inside a gigantic reaper/next to a gigantic reaper artifact.

If you don't know how indoctrination works, just say so.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And yet, their successes have almost never helped Shepard or anyone outside their organization, so why should we even care?

Bringing Shepard back to life was probably the best thing Cerberus has done and more than outweighs all the bad they've done put together.

They also succeeded in developing EDI based on reaper tech salvaged from Sovereign. Shepard's mission would have not succeeded without her.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure the children Cerberus kidnapped and killed while experimenting on them would agree. Or their own staff that constantly gets killed/indoctrinated. Or the Alliance soldiers they tortured by exposing them to thresher maw acid. Or admiral Kahoku. Or Dacid Archer.

One good quality isn't enough to redeem all their past actions, because they're constantly breaking that balance.

They revived Shepard and provided him with a ship. That's it. Shepard is doing everything else on his own. Not to mention that being related to Cerberus actually hurts his work, because everyone sees them as the terrorists they are.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[F00lishG]

It's our choice to make. And no matter what we say you'll still question why we do it. We made our choice. Deal with it.

[Someone With Mass]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I wish people would stop using the Thanix cannon as an example.

Modifying reaper tech =/= Standing inside a gigantic reaper/next to a gigantic reaper artifact.

If you don't know how indoctrination works, just say so.

Same thing goes with the Collector technology.

And Sovereign was as dead as a Reaper can be. There wasn't any risk of indoctrination.

[Madness Factory]

im not gonna give TIM all that genetic data on all the races,just think of all the horrible tings he could with that.

[Dave of Canada]

I'll just come in here and point out two very obvious flaws in the logic everybody has here:

• The Reapers never expected humanity to use the Collector Base's technology, trying to say it's part of the Reaper's plans to have all that technology at their disposal is silly. We either go into war with the potential knowledge (and use) of Reaper tech or we go in with no information at all with the same tech they wanted us to use.
• Giving the Base because you don't trust Cerberus after the Reaper invasion is silly, what do you think will happen to all the Reaper tech floating around from the Reaper corpses if we successfully win? It'll litter the galaxy, it's not simply going to disappear. People will use Reaper tech and possibly master it, Base or no.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'll just come in here and point out two very obvious flaws in the logic everybody has here:

• The Reapers never expected humanity to use the Collector Base's technology, trying to say it's part of the Reaper's plans to have all that technology at their disposal is silly. We either go into war with the potential knowledge (and use) of Reaper tech or we go in with no information at all with the same tech they wanted us to use.

And the Reapers can't counter this technology when they can clearly see that we're taking it over, because...?

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And the Reapers can't counter this technology when they can clearly see that we're taking it over, because...?

Because we have everything the Reapers know and build located inside a nice little pile right across the Omega-4 Relay? The very same Reapers which are coming to kill us all with our limited technology and knowledge on Reapers? One of the many various services the Collector Base provides?

They couldn't counter their own tech before, mastery of Reaper tech has resulted in a wrench being thrown in their plans twice now.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:48 .

[Inverness Moon]

Massadonious1 wrote...

I wish people would stop using the Thanix cannon as an example.

Modifying reaper tech =/= Standing inside a gigantic reaper/next to a gigantic reaper artifact.

If you don't know how indoctrination works, just say so.

Size obviously has nothing to do with indoctrination capability from what we've seen, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure the children Cerberus kidnapped and killed while experimenting on them would agree. Or their own staff that constantly gets killed/indoctrinated. Or the Alliance soldiers they tortured by exposing them to thresher maw acid. Or admiral Kahoku. Or Dacid Archer.

I really don't care what they think about it, because Shepard being around to save the galaxy from the reapers is more important than their lives.

One good quality isn't enough to redeem all their past actions, because they're constantly breaking that balance.

If that one good action saves more lives (everyone's) compared to all those they have killed, then what do you call it?

To me it seems like the negatives have been outweighed by the positives.

They revived Shepard and provided him with a ship. That's it. Shepard is doing everything else on his own. Not to mention that being related to Cerberus actually hurts his work, because everyone sees them as the terrorists they are.

They brought Shepard back to life, gave him a ship along with an anti-reaper AI, funds for the mission, and dossiers for the best. And you say "that's it?"

"That's it," sounds like you're just trying to dismiss how Shepard is now capable of saving the galaxy thanks to Cerberus's willingness to do whatever it takes (revive the dead, build AI's, etc.). Shepard may have done the ass kicking, but he wouldn't have succeeded or had a foot to kick ass with without Cerberus.

Don't be so dishonest with yourself.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Giving the Base because you don't trust Cerberus after the Reaper invasion is silly, what do you think will happen to all the Reaper tech floating around from the Reaper corpses if we successfully win? It'll litter the galaxy, it's not simply going to disappear. People will use Reaper tech and possibly master it, Base or no.

Because that justifies giving weapons to terrorists. And if we can handle the Reapers, I'm sure we can handle some petty scavengers.

Oh, wait. I forgot. All aliens are bad, because generalizing is so much fun. Never mind. They're the epitome of evil and must be vanquished.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And the Reapers can't counter this technology when they can clearly see that we're taking it over, because...?

What does "counter this technology" even mean? I see that waved around a lot. That is far too vague of an argument to be credible.

Reapers use mass effect technology, therefore they play by the same rules as the rest of the galaxy. They use kinetic barriers for defense, if you have a big enough gun you can pierce them and blow them in half like what happened with the derelict reaper.

Logic like yours suggests that if technology gained from the collector base allowed the offensive and defensive power of ships to be multiplied to the point where dreadnoughts could one-shot reapers, that they would be able to counter this anyway somehow?

I didn't see the collector ship countering the thannix cannon, obviously because reaper technology is not magic. For example, we've had nuclear weapons for decades, and you can't  counter those except by not being there when they explode.

All these assertions about reapers being able to magically counter anything we gain from the base is nonsense without specifics.

[EsterCloat]

I'd really like to know what this magical awesome tech the pro-keeping the base crowd thinks the base holds. From what I saw, the thing just floated there with no defensive systems at all(aside from the Oculus, which were just flying AI lasers). We have the Collector beam tech, we have the thanix cannon off of Sovereign's corpse, we have the Reaper IFF. I don't see what that base offers if you keep it aside from liquifying people tech, paralyzing bug corpses, collector corpses, and I guess organic-metal base construction. None that I see are that useful against an armada of advanced living spaceships.

Here's how I see it: everytime I've come up to whole Reaper tech it's tried to kill me directly and/or indirectly. Thus, I've adopted a very simple precept: do not deal with Reaper tech until it's been blown up completely and/or shot at sufficiently.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because we have everything the Reapers know and build located inside a nice little pile right across the Omega-4 Relay? The very same Reapers which are coming to kill us all with our limited technology and knowledge on Reapers? One of the many various services the Collector Base provides?

They couldn't counter their own tech before, mastery of Reaper tech has resulted in a wrench being thrown in their plans twice now.

And you know this, how...?

Oh, wait. You don't. You're just pulling that out of your ass to try and justify giving Cerberus more doomsday devices.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

terrorists

You sure like your buzz words, don't you?

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I didn't see the collector ship countering the thannix cannon, obviously because reaper technology is not magic. For example, we've had nuclear weapons for decades, and you can't  counter those except by not being there when they explode.

Because Collector technology is so much like Reaper technology, right? Never mind that the Collector ship was designed to pick up a large amount of people once they and their technology are disabled and not to withstand prolonged firefights.

Nope, if they can't counter it, neither can the Reapers.