1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I agree - people who believe that only their way of thinking is the right one - are completely ignorant.

[Subferro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...


What makes you think I don't care about the survival of the galaxy?

'cause you blew up the Collector base.

I don't need it.

[John Renegade]

Subferro wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

You can't flatout say, that Akuze was a failure, because we don't know much about it, and once again I ask why the hell even matters that the derelict reaper team is dead? Why should potential death of the Collector Base team matter? The results matter. The Reaper IFF matters. The survival of the galaxy matters.

What makes you think I don't care about the survival of the galaxy? Did you skip the last half of my post? 

"We'll fight and win without it" ie. the galaxy will survive without the Collector Base.

If we don't then I'll admit that I was wrong.

No, you won't admit anything because you'll by dead, technically speaking. And trillions of others too, because of your choices. Once again: how are you gonna to defeat the Reapers without the base? What is your proverbial "parachute"? Also, if the Collector Base doesn't lower immediate possibility of general survival of the galaxy and has at least possibility of helping you, it would be foolish to throw it away even if you had already found some other technology that would help you beat the Reapers.

The main problem is, that there is an invisible line of "capability level", which the current galactic civilization has to cross for it to defeat the reapers. We don't know all the factors, which affect that capability (does the number of soldiers matter? Ships? Technology?), and we don't know how much each of these factors affect it. So if you can add a value to that capability, which could be zero or higher, why not do it when it can either do nothing or it can increase your chance of crossing the "Capability Level", making it possibly the key element deciding the war.

Even if you said that that value can "somehow" be lower than zero, thus decreasing our chances of victory, the chance of the Collector Base failure based on project success, not staff mortality based on previous experience with Cerberus is lower, than a chance of getting some positive gain.

[Admoniter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

Meta-gaming that and Biowares preference for having paragons always be right.

[Seboist]

Admoniter wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

Meta-gaming that and Biowares preference for having paragons always be right.

Yeah and with the squadmates who favored keeping the base making a complete 180 afterwords It was as if the devs were practically saying "Hah! We made you pick the wrong choice sucker! *middle finger* ".

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

A genre savvy Shepard should know never to play into the Chessmaster/Magnificent Bastard's hands.

[Siven80]

I destroy it because i dont trust TIM and cerberus

But i dont expect it to be a huge difference in ME3 if you save it or not, cos bioware love illusion of choice.

At most you'll get dialogue referring to your choice, and maybe a side mission with differing paths based on if it was destroyed or not.

Thats my opinion atleast, based on ME2 import evidence and the fact Bioware dont like to punish people for choices and want people to have a chance to see more content.

[jedierick]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jedierick wrote...


The derelict reaper was an example of how he let something get out of control,

Except it didn't. They achieved the objective.

Um Shepard achieved the objective, TIM, and or Cerberus failed in theirs. Had Cerberous achived their goal, or been better prepared, the husks would not have complicated the objective.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jedierick wrote...


The derelict reaper was an example of how he let something get out of control,

Except it didn't. They achieved the objective.

I doubt they had to set up shop inside the damn thing and ship in over a hundred people just to find some IFF. Not to mention that they'd been there long before it became clear that the Normandy needed the IFF.

[jedierick]

John Renegade wrote...

Subferro wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

You can't flatout say, that Akuze was a failure, because we don't know much about it, and once again I ask why the hell even matters that the derelict reaper team is dead? Why should potential death of the Collector Base team matter? The results matter. The Reaper IFF matters. The survival of the galaxy matters.

What makes you think I don't care about the survival of the galaxy? Did you skip the last half of my post? 

"We'll fight and win without it" ie. the galaxy will survive without the Collector Base.

If we don't then I'll admit that I was wrong.

No, you won't admit anything because you'll by dead, technically speaking. And trillions of others too, because of your choices. Once again: how are you gonna to defeat the Reapers without the base? What is your proverbial "parachute"? Also, if the Collector Base doesn't lower immediate possibility of general survival of the galaxy and has at least possibility of helping you, it would be foolish to throw it away even if you had already found some other technology that would help you beat the Reapers.

The main problem is, that there is an invisible line of "capability level", which the current galactic civilization has to cross for it to defeat the reapers. We don't know all the factors, which affect that capability (does the number of soldiers matter? Ships? Technology?), and we don't know how much each of these factors affect it. So if you can add a value to that capability, which could be zero or higher, why not do it when it can either do nothing or it can increase your chance of crossing the "Capability Level", making it possibly the key element deciding the war.

Even if you said that that value can "somehow" be lower than zero, thus decreasing our chances of victory, the chance of the Collector Base failure based on project success, not staff mortality based on previous experience with Cerberus is lower, than a chance of getting some positive gain.

The thing I find funny is that you dont know if keeping the base wont cost trilions of lives as well? LEts face it, if we kept it and TIm screwed it up and got all his research people changed into husks or worse, then the galaxy woudl be worse for it.

You cannot gurantee that TIM and Cerberus will pull anything out of that base, other than the potential for something to go wrong.

[Aimi]

I've never understood the argument that destroying the Collector Base is a bad decision, because it relies on reasoning that basically works the same way in the other direction. If things happen the same way in the next game more or less regardless of your decision, how can the choice have been "bad" or "good"? It just is.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It could be that in the early stages of indoctrination their connection to the Reaper allowed them to find and identify the IFF.

That, or they impaled themselves on Dragon's Teeth as their new master told them was their only goal in life.

[Inverness Moon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

Shepard's ego alone will crush the reapers. He doesn't need no stinkin' collector base.

daqs wrote...

I've never understood the argument that destroying the Collector Base is a bad decision, because it relies on reasoning that basically works the same way in the other direction. If things happen the same way in the next game more or less regardless of your decision, how can the choice have been "bad" or "good"? It just is.

That is a metagame argument, which makes it entirely invalid.

We're arguing our choices from Shepard's perspective, which is certainly not a game.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:11 .

[jedierick]

Keeping the base presents the player with the unknown, just like destroying it. Nobody knows what the collectors base would have revealed, or if it would reveal more than what EDI found while connected to the collectors ship. Keeping it presented more of a risk than destroying it for me.

[Bad King]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

Shepard's ego alone will crush the reapers. He doesn't need no stinkin' collector base.

"I won't let fear compromise who I am "

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

Shepard's ego alone will crush the reapers. He doesn't need no stinkin' collector base.

"I won't let fear compromise who I am "

"I won't sacrifice the soul of my species"

[Aimi]

Inverness Moon wrote...

That is a metagame argument, which makes it entirely invalid.

We're arguing our choices from Shepard's perspective, which is certainly not a game.

But the OP focused on metagaming arguments, i.e. how it turns out in the end.  If you destroyed the base to keep Reaper tech out of Cerberus' hands or to keep them from getting indoctrinated, the facts that Cerberus gets indoctrinated anyway in the third game and that they use Reaper tech from the base in Invasion are metagaming arguments against destroying the base.

And if you're focusing on What Shep Knew At The Time, I still can't see anything that would swing the pendulum decisively one way or the other, mostly because you don't know how things turn out.  Is a scenario of "Cerberus gets the technology and unleashes a holocaust" really that much less plausible than "Cerberus doesn't get the technology and the galaxy is defenseless against the Reaper threat"?

I mean, maybe I'm employing lines of reasoning that are too simple for this overlong thread...

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

I don't need it.

How do you know?

Shepard's ego alone will crush the reapers. He doesn't need no stinkin' collector base.

"I won't let fear compromise who I am "

"I won't sacrifice the soul of my species"

"I know what you are, and the price of dealing with you."

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

"I know what you are, and the price of dealing with you."

Yeah and so far the price has been cheating death and defeating your enemy.

What a horrible price to pay.

Touché.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

"I know what you are, and the price of dealing with you."

Yeah and so far the price has been cheating death and defeating your enemy.

What a horrible price to pay.

And he gave Shepard the coolest ride in the galaxy.