1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Actually in most cases they weren't put on trial at all and continued on with their lives and careers.

Yeah, though (s)he asked what Cerberus would be trialed under. Trying to relate it to most of the people who had been trialed only led to war criminal, even though the majority walked away.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juillet 2011 - 06:07 .

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

"According to Anderson (or the Council if they were saved in Mass Effect), groups that ventured to Ilos following Shepard's visit found that Vigil had shut down (possibly due to full power loss)."

They have no problems operating in the Terminus Systems, if necessary.

Small groups operating in the Terminus Systems are probably perfectly fine because it doesn't look like the Council is planning anything against the Terminus Systems. Shepard, if made a Spectre, and Tela Vasir have done a lot of stuff that could stir "political ****storms" for the Council though they aren't really scolded because the Council didn't hand them over permission to do anything and they can still be arrested by local authorities.

Trying to reach the Omega 4 Relay, which is located pretty close beside Omega itself, with a bunch of Citadel vessels to investigate and research the technology (as well as trafficking it back to the Citadel from the Terminus) could possibly be constituted an act of war.

Which would have been interesting consequence wise, where giving the Council the Base could lead to a war between the Terminus and Council causing a lot of unnecessary tension during the Reaper invasion and having the Terminus people using Collector technology looted from the Council races (and the Council has weaker alternatives to Collector stuff).

[Dave of Canada]

Fixers0 wrote...

And yet all of this does not alter the fact that actions against multiple states were commited

Except that it isn't actions against the state, it's actions indirectly affecting the states. I didn't say it wasn't criminal, I said it wasn't terrorist.

[jedierick]

CuseGirl wrote...

jedierick wrote...

Seeing as though cerberus is indoctrinated in ME3, I guess my line of thining was correct, cause if Cerberus allowed itself to be indoctrinated some other way, without the base, then they would have screwed up the base for sure.

I just can't believe Cerberus is indoctrinated regardless of whether we destroyed or kept the base? Story wise, how does this come to be? What other massive Reaper tech did they find that got them into this mess that Shep has to clean up?

SOrry, coudl have been more specific, I dont think that they are indoctorinated becasue we did or did not keep the base. I simply was pointing out that we know they are in fact indoctorinated in ME3, based on that fact, I feel I am justified in blowing the base up as I didnt keep the base, and they were indoctorinated another way, so had I kept the base, I feel the outcome woudl have been worse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

You can't honestly belive that?
Having access to machienery and equipment is way better.
First of all, we don't know how much data EDI got.
Secondly, I really doubt construction plans for every piece of equipment are in the computer EDI broke into. Last time I checked, no shipyard hold plans for every piece of equipment used in it. Neither to nucler power plants hold plans and detiled data for everything.
The idea that a 5-minute comper hack can get you everything that you can possibly learn is the stuff of fairytales. It doens't even matter how advanced EDI is.
Not to mention, with the base in tact, you get construction infrastructure for free.

Second, Cerberus is the only one actively doing something against the repaers. And there is no strict timeframe for the Reaper arrival. How can Sheppard know TIM can't get anythining usefull in time? Based on WHAT?

Again, the base is the best bet at defeating the reapers, and simply destroying it is short-sighted and stupid, even moreso since you dont' havea back-up plan!
Even if you don't trust TIM, destroying it is stupid. You could just tell the Alliance it's location later!

Having access to machinary is not always better, you cannot always reverse engineer something based on having it in front of you. 

Your comment on not knowing how much data EDI got is spot on,we dont know, just like we dont know if the reaper base had ANYTHING in it of value, everyone is making assumptions. For all we know the reaper base was there to create a new reaper, and huse the collectors. Nobody knows, you cannot say for sure what the reaper base woudl have given them just like I cannot say for sure that the data EDI got, if any, was good.

Having data+machinery is ALWAYS better. That is non-debatable.
And yes, the reapr base had things of value, because it was used to construct a reaper. IT IS A SHIPYARD. And it has a repaer corpse in it.
Yes, I cna say it would be of incredible use.

Second, the stuf of fairytakes comment, do you even want me to go there, in the Mass Effect universe it is possible for an AI to take tons of information in a short few seconds, just like when the Normandy was taken over in a short period of time when the IFF was installed. So yes, it is possible for EDI to take loads more than any human could get in a short few seconds. And yes, this game is the stuff of fairytales in case you were wondering, so it is possible, very very very very possible.

EDI can only take data it can reach (dat that isn't protected or stored somewhere else) and data that is in the databases. Not all usefull data would be in the databse. This is redicolous.

Suppose the base had a robotic constructio narm that is lihgyears ahead of anything the other races had - it alone would speed up ship construction by huge amounts. And yet are designs for that thing in the database?
Almost certanly not. I know of no single instance anywhere in the world where all the data to construct EVERYTHING in a given facility is stored in the facility.
If anything, the data would be along the line of "DN-21 engine goes in here"...yet the plans for the engine would not be there.

And your second, second, Shepard is doing something about the reapers, he is not cerberus,  so your wrong there, Anderson belives Sheaprd and has done what he can to help, our new shadow broker is working to help Shepard, she's not cerberus. Cerberus is not the only one doing soemthing.

I was taking about factions/organizations. Let's not forget that witout Cerberus, there would be no Sheppard or data of any kind.

And as far as a time frame, didnt Arrival give us a time frame to follow? Based off of that I dont think TIM coudl give me anything usefull without screwing it up.

Arrival takes place after the base decision, hence irrelevant. And you cannot know ahead of time how much data can be gaind from it and how useful lit would be.
Didn't Morodin develop a protection against the swarm within days of fist seeing it?

The one thing we can base on fact is that Cerberus (not necessarily TIM) has been indoctorinated, with that known, we know somewhere TIM screwed up. With this information known, I think I can apply that to the fact that somehow TIM would have screwed up and the collectors base woudl be used agaisnt me rather than for me.

Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion.

The funny thing is that I can only count three people that have used that excuse on this forum that I know of.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Your point? If you had any that is.....

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Which would mean what exactly?

That not many cares if it's metagaming or not, since then everyone would just be yapping about same sh*t over and over again with so little wiggle room.

Sort of what's happening in this thread.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

That not many cares if it's metagaming or not

Then...  they shouldn't argue with non-metagamers instead of being like you and saying "I DON'T CARE" all the time?

[celuloid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Small groups operating in the Terminus Systems are probably perfectly fine because it doesn't look like the Council is planning anything against the Terminus Systems. Shepard, if made a Spectre, and Tela Vasir have done a lot of stuff that could stir "political ****storms" for the Council though they aren't really scolded because the Council didn't hand them over permission to do anything and they can still be arrested by local authorities.

Trying to reach the Omega 4 Relay, which is located pretty close beside Omega itself, with a bunch of Citadel vessels to investigate and research the technology (as well as trafficking it back to the Citadel from the Terminus) could possibly be constituted an act of war.

Which would have been interesting consequence wise, where giving the Council the Base could lead to a war between the Terminus and Council causing a lot of unnecessary tension during the Reaper invasion and having the Terminus people using Collector technology looted from the Council races (and the Council has weaker alternatives to Collector stuff).

It is too bad then that the game does not give us any impression about the supposed military power of Terminus. All I saw while playing ME2 was just a bunch of scavengers and wannabe gun-for-hires. What would they do in case of Council expedition to uncover the great secrets of Collectors? The "war" with Terminus is hardly a convincing argument, just as it was
back then at the end of ME1. More convincing argument is: "The writers did not write anything else besides characters on your squad."

Nobody believes in Reapers, I get it, but Collectors are known entity and everybody knows about their advanced technology. Now Shepard can come to Council and say: "I have conquered this giant base made by Collectors, do you want to see it? But hurry, it is in Terminus and a bunch of bad people are rushing there too." That would be a great twist at the end of ME2. But it would require telling a rich story about Cerberus and their past, their good and bad deeds, so that we would be in a grey area. Now keeping the base seems like the reasonable option and destroying it seems like the stupid one.

Modifié par celuloid, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:25 .

[Dave of Canada]

celuloid wrote...

It is too bad then that the game does not give us any impression about the supposed military power of Terminus.

Yeah, it's unfortunate that they don't really explore it and what we see isn't great. It could've been explored further, explaining why the Council was scared of a war with them (while the Council seem to enjoy killing entire groups of people just fine).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Which would mean what exactly?

That not many cares if it's metagaming or not, since then everyone would just be yapping about same sh*t over and over again with so little wiggle room.

Sort of what's happening in this thread.

Not caring about it is not caring about the argument.

If we're talking about what a resonable decision for someone in Sheppards shoes, then only information avialable to Sheppard is applicable.

And you just admitted that without metagaming, you have no wiggle room.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I want the Alliance to not be some shining example of humanity. I don't like Cerberus, but I don't think the Alliance is a lot better in most respects.

The Alliance still isn't very clean, but having Cerberus be an extension of them until only the last two and a half years or so means the Alliance can be implicated in Akuze, Teltin, and other atrocities. It adds some measure of grayness for both factions.

It gives Cerberus and the Illusive Man an extra angle to their motivation as well. You want to find out what caused them to split off. How long were they planning it? That sort of thing.

Plus I just find it hard to believe TIM set all this up without a lot of intial government backing.

In the end the Alliance exists to facilitate colonization after all, and we know Cerberus' funders are wealth private individuals and corporations... so in other words largely the same people who fund the Alliance.

It makes it a lot easier to believe Cerberus could be so successful at infiltrating the Alliance... because they never had to "infiltrate" it really.

Zulu's theory about Cerberus always being part of the Alliance but on the surface being "illegal" to act as a diversion for the Alliance's enemies while still advancing human interests is also a really good take on it.

Hackett seemed to know more about Akuze than he was letting on during the briefing for the "dead scientists" mission.

[Ultai]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion.

Something that generally annoys me below.

Metagamer:  I want to give Kai Leng to Aria in ME3.

Roleplayer:  Why?  Shepard has absolutely zero clue who Kai Leng is or what he's done.  It would make no sense for Kai to randomly  tell Shep "Hey btw I killed Aria's daughter!"  At best Shep would respond most likely with "I didn't even know she had a daughter", or just plain not give a damn about a gang member Kai killed.

Metagamer:  I don't care, I hate him because he's TIM's assassin and he's a racist, so I want to give him to Aria.

Roleplayer:  

In short, I agree with you.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I think it's great we are arguing about a decision that only affects ourselves.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:50 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Humanoid-Typhoon: You misunderstand... it's to prove who's way of thinking is THE BESTEST EVAR!

It's very important to some people that what makes sense to them - must make sense to others, because they're not self-assured enough to realize that they might not have the market cornered on knowledge and the most misused word, probably ever, "logic".

I think it all has to do with not getting enough hugs as a child - that's the only "logical" and is "non- disputable" explination.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[Inverness Moon]

Fixers0 wrote...

After paging of discussing of what perhaps is the most easist decision to make in a game, could somebody please explain to my what the point is in:

1. Using technology from creatures that thus far have brought nothing but doom and destruction for every other species?

2. Suporting terrorists in general?

Do you know what a loaded question is?

[Dave of Canada]

Medhia Nox wrote...

the most misused word, probably ever, "logic".

You mean terrorist.

[jedierick]

]Having data+machinery is ALWAYS better. That is non-debatable.
And yes, the reapr base had things of value, because it was used to construct a reaper. IT IS A SHIPYARD. And it has a repaer corpse in it.
Yes, I cna say it would be of incredible use.

You do know anything is debatable.
And no you dont know for sure that any of the data at the collector base would have been anything new. Just becasue it had stuff, does not mean it woudl lead to anything concrete. Shepard already figured out how to beat the human reaper and had already beat a fully functional reaper before, you have no way of knowing that based of those expiriences he woudl be able to put something together to beatr the reapers, plus they know that the derelict repaer was disabled somehow.

EDI can only take data it can reach (dat that isn't protected or stored somewhere else) and data that is in the databases. Not all usefull data would be in the databse. This is redicolous.

How do you know all usefull data woudl not be stored in the databases? The reapers are a tech based lifeform, the collectors had all their organics replaced by tech, so it would be logical to assume that information was stored via tech, not on some paper sitting in the head collectors office.

Suppose the base had a robotic constructio narm that is lihgyears ahead of anything the other races had - it alone would speed up ship construction by huge amounts. And yet are designs for that thing in the database?
Almost certanly not. I know of no single instance anywhere in the world where all the data to construct EVERYTHING in a given facility is stored in the facility.
If anything, the data would be along the line of "DN-21 engine goes in here"...yet the plans for the engine would not be there.

Again, you dont know this, your thinking like a human, not a reaper. Reapers assumed that nobody could beat them, that there was nothing to stand in their way, so they had no reason not to store things casually out in the open.

]I was taking about factions/organizations. Let's not forget that witout Cerberus, there would be no Sheppard or data of any kind.

Ok Cerberus braught him back, doesnt mean they can be trusted.


]Arrival takes place after the base decision, hence irrelevant. And you cannot know ahead of time how much data can be gaind from it and how useful lit would be.
Didn't Morodin develop a protection against the swarm within days of fist seeing it?

Wrong, Arrival can take place before the collectors base if you play a new game with the DLC already downloaded. For one of my playthroughs it took place either after I got my first four or all eight of my squad members. So we in fact do have a time frame.


Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion


Why?

Modifié par jedierick, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

jedierick wrote...

Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion

Why?

Let's take this thread and condense it really quick.

Guy 1 doesn't metagame.
Guy 2 metagames.

Guy 1: I like Cerberus.
Guy 2: I don't.
Guy 1: Why not?
Guy 2: They are evil bastards, I blew up the base because of what they did in the novel.
Guy 1: I don't metagame, I spared the base because what it could do later.
Guy 2: You're stupid, did you see the magazine?
Guy 1: I said I don't metagame.
Guy 2: God, you're just grasping at straws.
Guy 1: Uh... okay.
Guy 2: You're delusional and stupid.

Let's take another thread and condense it too.

Guy 1: I killed the Council because I feared the galaxy would be destroyed if I spared time to save them.
Guy 2: It's just a game, of course you could save them.
Guy 1: How would Shepard know that?
Guy 2: Who cares, it's a game.
Guy 1: I'm roleplaying my Shepard.
Guy 2: Stop being stupid then.

Metagame removes discussion when the other refuses to acknowledge the non-metagamer's view.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:26 .

[jedierick]

Something to add to this, if the reapers engineered the collectors so that they could take them over and operate them remotely, then it is logical to conclude that there is nothing of value on the collectors base as the reapers would have the knowledge with them at all times, They remotely operate the collectors when they want something done.

So all we would get from the base, would be a collectors base full of dead humans and dead collectors. All the actual knowledge would be retained with the reapers.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dave of Canada - complete misrepresentation - but cool story.

Cerberus killed my entire team on Akuze - and then experiments on the only other surviving member. How's that for "they're evil bastards" - through RPing?

Should I continue with their other  "in game" acts? 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:27 .

[jedierick]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jedierick wrote...

Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion

Why?

Let's take this thread and condense it really quick.

Guy 1 doesn't metagame.
Guy 2 metagames.

Guy 1: I like Cerberus.
Guy 2: I don't.
Guy 1: Why not?
Guy 2: They are evil bastards, I blew up the base because of what they did in the novel.
Guy 1: I don't metagame, I spared the base because what it could do later.
Guy 2: You're stupid, did you see the magazine?
Guy 1: I said I don't metagame.
Guy 2: God, you're just grasping at straws.
Guy 1: Uh... okay.
Guy 2: You're delusional and stupid.

Let's take another thread and condense it too.

Guy 1: I killed the Council because I feared the galaxy would be destroyed if I spared time to save them.
Guy 2: It's just a game, of course you could save them.
Guy 1: How would Shepard know that?
Guy 2: Who cares, it's a game.
Guy 1: I'm roleplaying my Shepard.
Guy 2: Stop being stupid then.

Metagame removes discussion when the other refuses to acknowledge the non-metagamer's view.

Gotcha. 

[jedierick]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada - complete misrepresentation - but cool story.

Cerberus killed my entire team on Akuze - and then experiments on the only other surviving member. How's that for "they're evil bastards" - through RPing?

Should I continue with their own "in game" acts? 

Uh OH, he has a point Dave........ He has a valid non meta game point.