1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Cerberus killed my entire team on Akuze - and then experiments on the only other surviving member. How's that for "they're evil bastards" - through RPing?

You can use that as a non-metagame argument, though the thread mostly involves people bringing up metagame to counter non-metagamer's points (which is what I was bringing up, if you noticed quite a few pages back I had a civil discussion with somebody who respected the non-metagamer viewpoint). Which is why I explained (in the example I used) that they used a novel or something to counter it to justify the "evil bastard" thing rather than what Shepard can actually experience in the game and use to form his/her own opinions.

You can justify it using non-metagame quite easily (Example: though I feel Cerberus actions are justified, others might not. Which leads to a non-metagamer discussion which explores the thoughts of other people.), though non-metagame discussions rarely happen since the "Cerberus is indoctrinated" reveal because most people call anybody who supports Cerberus in ME2 an idiot because of it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:36 .

[Bad King]

Akuze was an Alliance experiment.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...
You do know anything is debatable.
And no you dont know for sure that any of the data at the collector base would have been anything new. Just becasue it had stuff, does not mean it woudl lead to anything concrete. Shepard already figured out how to beat the human reaper and had already beat a fully functional reaper before, you have no way of knowing that based of those expiriences he woudl be able to put something together to beatr the reapers, plus they know that the derelict repaer was disabled somehow.

It's a shipyard with advanced technology. Of course it would be something new. It's redicolous to think that it wont, given the amount of things that are BOUND to be in it (based on it's purpose)
An really? Shep and two fleest beat 1 reaper and you use that as "he'll figure something out, we dont' need teh base" proof?

How do you know all usefull data woudl not be stored in the databases? The reapers are a tech based lifeform, the collectors had all their organics replaced by tech, so it would be logical to assume that information was stored via tech, not on some paper sitting in the head collectors office.

Becase it never is. And I'm not taking paper form either. Data hgained from analyzing electronis, machinery and equipment. Other databases/terminals. T'ts highly unlikely there was only one.

Suppose the base had a robotic constructio narm that is lihgyears ahead of anything the other races had - it alone would speed up ship construction by huge amounts. And yet are designs for that thing in the database?
Almost certanly not. I know of no single instance anywhere in the world where all the data to construct EVERYTHING in a given facility is stored in the facility.
If anything, the data would be along the line of "DN-21 engine goes in here"...yet the plans for the engine would not be there.

Again, you dont know this, your thinking like a human, not a reaper. Reapers assumed that nobody could beat them, that there was nothing to stand in their way, so they had no reason not to store things casually out in the open.

I'm thinking like a rational being.
All things are not stored caussaly and in the open for various reasong, and lack of ego not being one of them. Practicality and necessity are the more pertinent reasons.
"Well, the Reaprs might jsut be super-stupid" is not a good argument really.

]Arrival takes place after the base decision, hence irrelevant. And you cannot know ahead of time how much data can be gaind from it and how useful lit would be.
Didn't Morodin develop a protection against the swarm within days of fist seeing it?

Wrong, Arrival can take place before the collectors base if you play a new game with the DLC already downloaded. For one of my playthroughs it took place either after I got my first four or all eight of my squad members. So we in fact do have a time frame.

As it's DLC, I guess you can start it at any time, but it's meant to be played after, at least from what I figure nd the logical chain of events.
And it still doesn't change the fact that you don't know how much can be gained from it in the tinme frame.

Meta-game knowledge is NOT APPLICABLE in any reasonable discussion

Why?

If you have to ask.....

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

Something to add to this, if the reapers engineered the collectors so that they could take them over and operate them remotely, then it is logical to conclude that there is nothing of value on the collectors base as the reapers would have the knowledge with them at all times, They remotely operate the collectors when they want something done.

So all we would get from the base, would be a collectors base full of dead humans and dead collectors. All the actual knowledge would be retained with the reapers.

Equipment, electronics..all in tact.

And if the reapers hold all the knowledge, then there would be nothing for EDI to find, since there would be no databases with info to speak of, no?

[John Renegade]

jedierick wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

Subferro wrote...

John Renegade wrote...

You can't flatout say, that Akuze was a failure, because we don't know much about it, and once again I ask why the hell even matters that the derelict reaper team is dead? Why should potential death of the Collector Base team matter? The results matter. The Reaper IFF matters. The survival of the galaxy matters.

What makes you think I don't care about the survival of the galaxy? Did you skip the last half of my post? 

"We'll fight and win without it" ie. the galaxy will survive without the Collector Base.

If we don't then I'll admit that I was wrong.

No, you won't admit anything because you'll by dead, technically speaking. And trillions of others too, because of your choices. Once again: how are you gonna to defeat the Reapers without the base? What is your proverbial "parachute"? Also, if the Collector Base doesn't lower immediate possibility of general survival of the galaxy and has at least possibility of helping you, it would be foolish to throw it away even if you had already found some other technology that would help you beat the Reapers.

The main problem is, that there is an invisible line of "capability level", which the current galactic civilization has to cross for it to defeat the reapers. We don't know all the factors, which affect that capability (does the number of soldiers matter? Ships? Technology?), and we don't know how much each of these factors affect it. So if you can add a value to that capability, which could be zero or higher, why not do it when it can either do nothing or it can increase your chance of crossing the "Capability Level", making it possibly the key element deciding the war.

Even if you said that that value can "somehow" be lower than zero, thus decreasing our chances of victory, the chance of the Collector Base failure based on project success, not staff mortality based on previous experience with Cerberus is lower, than a chance of getting some positive gain.

The thing I find funny is that you dont know if keeping the base wont cost trilions of lives as well? LEts face it, if we kept it and TIm screwed it up and got all his research people changed into husks or worse, then the galaxy woudl be worse for it.

You cannot gurantee that TIM and Cerberus will pull anything out of that base, other than the potential for something to go wrong.

Probability. We have probability. When we take all the Cerberus projects we know about, majority of them has the Cerberus team dying. Now, that is NOT important . So what that the team dies during the research in the base. The important part is that basically all Cerberus projects we know about have managed even with the death of their teams to end up as SUCCESS.

Based on these data, the Collector base operation has HIGH probability of the team ending up dead and HIGH probability of being a success. The success is to get information and technology to defeat the reapers. The mirror outcomes would be a LOW probability of the team surviving and LOW probability of project failure (death of trillions).

[jedierick]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...

Something to add to this, if the reapers engineered the collectors so that they could take them over and operate them remotely, then it is logical to conclude that there is nothing of value on the collectors base as the reapers would have the knowledge with them at all times, They remotely operate the collectors when they want something done.

So all we would get from the base, would be a collectors base full of dead humans and dead collectors. All the actual knowledge would be retained with the reapers.

Equipment, electronics..all in tact.

And if the reapers hold all the knowledge, then there would be nothing for EDI to find, since there would be no databases with info to speak of, no?

Your absolutly right, this line of thinking also negates my EDI theory, it in essence says there is nothing on the base at all of value, and based on that line of thinking the base is an abomination and shoudl be destroyed.

[jedierick]

John Renegade wrote...

Probability. We have probability. When we take all the Cerberus projects we know about, majority of them has the Cerberus team dying. Now, that is NOT important . So what that the team dies during the research in the base. The important part is that basically all Cerberus projects we know about have managed even with the death of their teams to end up as SUCCESS.

Based on these data, the Collector base operation has HIGH probability of the team ending up dead and HIGH probability of being a success. The success is to get information and technology to defeat the reapers. The mirror outcomes would be a LOW probability of the team surviving and LOW probability of project failure (death of trillions).

There would be no success, if there is any reaper tech that is salvagable on the base, then it is safe to assume, based on the Arrival DLC and the derelict repaer and other N7 missions involving husks and reaper artifacts and tech, that anyone trying to study, or use it, would be indoctorinated. So at that point, they send more people in and they get indoctroninated, and the cycle continues until Shepard comes back, and destroys the base. 

Also based on the derelict reaper, we know that communications were severed soon after they got there, so TIM didnt know if there was success there or not. It is safe to assume that the same thing would happen on the collectors base, and the more they sent in the more would die or become husks, until Shepard came in and destroyed the base.

[Inverness Moon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dave of Canada - complete misrepresentation - but cool story.

Cerberus killed my entire team on Akuze - and then experiments on the only other surviving member. How's that for "they're evil bastards" - through RPing?

Should I continue with their other  "in game" acts? 

Does your Shepard think they did it for ****s n' giggles?

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...

Something to add to this, if the reapers engineered the collectors so that they could take them over and operate them remotely, then it is logical to conclude that there is nothing of value on the collectors base as the reapers would have the knowledge with them at all times, They remotely operate the collectors when they want something done.

So all we would get from the base, would be a collectors base full of dead humans and dead collectors. All the actual knowledge would be retained with the reapers.

Equipment, electronics..all in tact.

And if the reapers hold all the knowledge, then there would be nothing for EDI to find, since there would be no databases with info to speak of, no?

Your absolutly right, this line of thinking also negates my EDI theory, it in essence says there is nothing on the base at all of value, and based on that line of thinking the base is an abomination and shoudl be destroyed.

And yet we knot that this is not true (and in fact, cannot be true.). We know there are things of value on that base and important tech.
Not only did EDI pull some info (meaning there's more), but TIM wouldn't be interested in it if it DIDN'T have tech that could advance humanity and help the fight agaisnt the reapers.
If the base is just a dead weight with notinhg of value, then destroying it also makes little sense - if it holds no tech then it's not dangerous.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...
There would be no success, if there is any reaper tech that is salvagable on the base, then it is safe to assume, based on the Arrival DLC and the derelict repaer and other N7 missions involving husks and reaper artifacts and tech, that anyone trying to study, or use it, would be indoctorinated. So at that point, they send more people in and they get indoctroninated, and the cycle continues until Shepard comes back, and destroys the base. 

Also based on the derelict reaper, we know that communications were severed soon after they got there, so TIM didnt know if there was success there or not. It is safe to assume that the same thing would happen on the collectors base, and the more they sent in the more would die or become husks, until Shepard came in and destroyed the base.

Assumptions. Not all experiments with reaper tech result in indoctrination. Case in point - Reaper IFF, Thanix cannon.
Secondly, Sheppard is not the only one capable of dealing with a few husks.
TIM could send down a whole battalion of elite cerberus troopers there to secure the base.

[Someone With Mass]

Soahfreako wrote...

I doubt I'll be allowed to go that far, but it is indoctrination. Why was it obvious? They went back to the Collector base to study it. Derp.

And before you go all: "Whaaaaa, it's metagaming", I can just say that the result is pretty obvious, given their past with Reaper tech.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

I doubt I'll be allowed to go that far, but it is indoctrination. Why was it obvious? They went back to the Collector base to study it. Derp.

And before you go all: "Whaaaaa, it's metagaming", I can just say that the result is pretty obvious, given their past with Reaper tech.

What past? The Derelict reaper?That's only 1 case.
Is that really enough to form any kind of conclusion?

Even if it was, so what? Evne if htere is only 1% chance that they might get something uselff, and 99% chance they'd f*** up, it's till worth it. Things can't possibly get any worse than galactic extinction.

[Medhia Nox]

What exactly do you people think the Reapers would place on the Collector Base that is the "winning key" to victory?

And - WHY would the Reapers put this "winning key" on a slave ship designated for one purpose?

[magicman9194]

Just discovered that Cerberus are apparently indoctrinated in ME3? Read up on one of the book prequels, tells the story of Jack Harper AKA TIM, and how he came into contact with Reaper technology during the first contact war. Destroying the base is definitely the right call

[Someone With Mass]

Medhia Nox wrote...

What exactly do you people think the Reapers would place on the Collector Base that is the "winning key" to victory?

And - WHY would the Reapers put this "winning key" on a slave ship designated for one purpose?

The most important question is why in hell TIM would suddenly feel like the most generous guy ever and share everything they find with the rest of the galaxy. You know, everything but the Reaper creatures they drag with them from time to time.

[Kaiser Shepard]

magicman9194 wrote...

Just discovered that Cerberus are apparently indoctrinated in ME3? Read up on one of the book prequels, tells the story of Jack Harper AKA TIM, and how he came into contact with Reaper technology during the first contact war. Destroying the base is definitely the right call

Metagaming.

Also, I'd say that Evolution is actually an argument as to why you should give him the base, seeing how it indicates that Cerberus was founded mainly for adressing the Reaper threat.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 23 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[jedierick]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...
There would be no success, if there is any reaper tech that is salvagable on the base, then it is safe to assume, based on the Arrival DLC and the derelict repaer and other N7 missions involving husks and reaper artifacts and tech, that anyone trying to study, or use it, would be indoctorinated. So at that point, they send more people in and they get indoctroninated, and the cycle continues until Shepard comes back, and destroys the base. 

Also based on the derelict reaper, we know that communications were severed soon after they got there, so TIM didnt know if there was success there or not. It is safe to assume that the same thing would happen on the collectors base, and the more they sent in the more would die or become husks, until Shepard came in and destroyed the base.

Assumptions. Not all experiments with reaper tech result in indoctrination. Case in point - Reaper IFF, Thanix cannon.
Secondly, Sheppard is not the only one capable of dealing with a few husks.
TIM could send down a whole battalion of elite cerberus troopers there to secure the base.

Dude, this whole post is pretty much made up of assumptions, nobody knows if the base will or will not generate anything usefull. You assume that the base has more on it, but you dont know, I assume that the base is worthless but I dont know for sure. You cannot base anything on fact other than there was a reaper that shepard destroyed, you assume there is more to the base than just the one reaper but you dont know, for all you know the collectors eat the human paste and pooped it into the reaper, there is nothing in the game that tells us how they built the reaper other than using humans to do so. Dont talk to me about assumptions.


And um the Reaper IFF team DID get indoctroinated, and turned into husks, have you played this game?  And name a team or expiriment, outside of shepards team, that did not result in indoctoirnation, or being turned into husks.

And your metagaming a little there arent you, you dont know if TIM has a whole battalion available to send to the base, notrhing in the game says he does, unless your assuming.

[CuseGirl]

jedierick wrote...

Dude, this whole post is pretty much made up of assumptions, nobody knows if the base will or will not generate anything usefull. You assume that the base has more on it, but you dont know, I assume that the base is worthless but I dont know for sure. You cannot base anything on fact other than there was a reaper that shepard destroyed, you assume there is more to the base than just the one reaper but you dont know, for all you know the collectors eat the human paste and pooped it into the reaper, there is nothing in the game that tells us how they built the reaper other than using humans to do so. Dont talk to me about assumptions.


And um the Reaper IFF team DID get indoctroinated, and turned into husks, have you played this game?  And name a team or expiriment, outside of shepards team, that did not result in indoctoirnation, or being turned into husks.

And your metagaming a little there arent you, you dont know if TIM has a whole battalion available to send to the base, notrhing in the game says he does, unless your assuming.

The big decision in ME-1, to save or kill the Council, wut was the result of that in ME-2? Wasn't it basically just lame dialogue? It seems like the Collector base decision is becoming less and less important as we creep closer to the release.

[Medhia Nox]

TIM knew "something" about the Reapers since the First Contact War? ((According to some comic))

I don't know what it is - and I'll likely not buy/read the comic - but was he testing Thresher Maws and Thorian Creepers and Rachni and husk technology on innocent human soldiers on the off chance that these four things would be keys to defeating the Reapers?

Seriously - did he not use his uber-billions to try to convince the Alliance?

Maybe if he weren't such a craven douche - the Alliance would be totally behind Shepard and would have stopped the Reaper threat before it began. That's how you defend humanity... not with this clandestine bullsh_t.

((Of course - Bioware seems to be taking the "Every NPC is an idiot." approach to develop their stories and make their heroes seem uber-awesome great. At least Shepard is done much better than certain other installments of Bioware IPs))

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 23 juillet 2011 - 05:01 .

[John Renegade]

jedierick wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...
There would be no success, if there is any reaper tech that is salvagable on the base, then it is safe to assume, based on the Arrival DLC and the derelict repaer and other N7 missions involving husks and reaper artifacts and tech, that anyone trying to study, or use it, would be indoctorinated. So at that point, they send more people in and they get indoctroninated, and the cycle continues until Shepard comes back, and destroys the base. 

Also based on the derelict reaper, we know that communications were severed soon after they got there, so TIM didnt know if there was success there or not. It is safe to assume that the same thing would happen on the collectors base, and the more they sent in the more would die or become husks, until Shepard came in and destroyed the base.

Assumptions. Not all experiments with reaper tech result in indoctrination. Case in point - Reaper IFF, Thanix cannon.
Secondly, Sheppard is not the only one capable of dealing with a few husks.
TIM could send down a whole battalion of elite cerberus troopers there to secure the base.

Dude, this whole post is pretty much made up of assumptions, nobody knows if the base will or will not generate anything usefull. You assume that the base has more on it, but you dont know, I assume that the base is worthless but I dont know for sure. You cannot base anything on fact other than there was a reaper that shepard destroyed, you assume there is more to the base than just the one reaper but you dont know, for all you know the collectors eat the human paste and pooped it into the reaper, there is nothing in the game that tells us how they built the reaper other than using humans to do so. Dont talk to me about assumptions.


And um the Reaper IFF team DID get indoctroinated, and turned into husks, have you played this game?  And name a team or expiriment, outside of shepards team, that did not result in indoctoirnation, or being turned into husks.

And your metagaming a little there arent you, you dont know if TIM has a whole battalion available to send to the base, notrhing in the game says he does, unless your assuming.

First: Once again, the indoctrination/death of the team is not relevant. The success of the project is. The project has statistically higher chance of success than failure based on previous Cerberus projects (see my previous post). To go for something, that has low probability of happening (choosing to destroy the base for the fear of project failure) is in this case equal to a man wanting to jump out of the window, because he wants to get into space and thinks that though all previous observations (the probability) suggests that gravity pulls people to earth and not to sky, there is a bigger chance of him being pulled by the gravity up.

And yes, that example is valid, because as long as we dont know EXACTLY how the universe works, there is still a possibility, that under some unknown conditions we can't yet predict the gravity will pull us up.


Second: Not only that the base has for sure the machinery that can create the reaper, which if we will study will allow us to understand the process of creating the Reaper. In other words we will be allowed to see the exact Reaper composition. The base itself is also capable to orbit a black hole and survive. By studying how, we can get a tremendous boost in our understanding of the mass effect physics.

There is also a possibility of a few oculi and/or seeker swarms and/or husks hanging around, but I won't include that in my list because there is a possibility of them not being there. The Reaper creating machinery and technology able to counter forces created by a black hole is, however, definitely in the base. So yes, I am pretty much sure that we will find something if we keep it intact.

Modifié par John Renegade, 23 juillet 2011 - 05:42 .

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Metagaming.

Also, I'd say that Evolution is actually an argument as to why you should give him the base, seeing how it indicates that Cerberus was founded mainly for adressing the Reaper threat.

And then there's Retribution, which is a reason why you shouldn't give him the base.

[jedierick]

[quote]John Renegade wrote...

[/quote]
First: Once again, the indoctrination/death of the team is not relevant. The success of the project is. The project has statistically higher chance of success than failure based on previous Cerberus projects (see my previous post). To go for something, that has low probability of happening (choosing to destroy the base for the fear of project failure) is in this case equal to a man wanting to jump out of the window, because he wants to get into space and thinks that though all previous observations (the probability) suggests that gravity pulls people to earth and not to sky, there is a bigger chance of him being pulled by the gravity up.

And yes, that example is valid, because as long as we dont know EXACTLY how the universe works, there is still a possibility, that under some unknown conditions we can't yet predict the gravity will pull us up.


Second: Not only that the base has for sure the machinery that can create the reaper, which if we will study will allow us to understand the process of creating the Reaper. In other words we will be allowed to see the exact Reaper composition. The base itself is also capable to orbit a black hole and survive. By studying how, we can get a tremendous boost in our understanding of the mass effect physics.

There is also a possibility of a few oculi and/or seeker swarms and/or husks hanging around, but I won't include that in my list because there is a possibility of them not being there. The Reaper creating machinery and technology able to counter forces created by a black hole is, however, definitely in the base. So yes, I am pretty much sure that we will find something if we keep it intact.[/quote]



The death\\indoctorinatrion of the team is very relevent, especialy if you think that TIM is going to handle other missions like that. With the knowledge he had, he should have been better prepared. Sure the success of the mission is worth the risk, but he didnt prepare for anything, which says a lot.

Second, you are assuming that the base has data and machinery that could creat a reaper, we saw one hanging there, but we saw no machinary building it, again for all you know the collectros destroy every tool they use to make every part of the reaper, YOU DONT KNOW, it is an assumption. You have no way around that, logic says that there shoud be something, but you dont know for sure.

You dont know for sure what is in the base, if you do, tell me where, give me proof. Cause all I saw walking through the base was collecotrs, human blender tank things,, doors, husks, collectors, the human reaper, floating platforms, the communication device used to control the collectrs etc. Nothing that said on it, Acme reaper making machine.

So again, I say, no matter which side you choose, you are making assumptions,  for or agaisnt blowing the base, we are all making assumptions of what it could give us. TIm doesnt know everything on there, he is assuming there is stuff on there that can help him.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Metagaming.

Also, I'd say that Evolution is actually an argument as to why you should give him the base, seeing how it indicates that Cerberus was founded mainly for adressing the Reaper threat.

And then there's Retribution, which is a reason why you shouldn't give him the base.

Well, at the very least he's trying to figure out how a Reaper avatar works exactly. I'm not for 'bruteforcing' Reaper tech the way Cerberus does, pretty much injecting/attaching Reaper part A to conventional item B, but hey, it seems to at least get some results.

Also, as much as it pains me to say, Zulu was right about Anderson and Sanders effectively setting the events of Retribution in motion.

It's a shame we didn't get Cerberus to develop the Thanix cannon, though: I would've loved to see them attach one of old Sovvy's legs to the SR-2.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 24 juillet 2011 - 08:42 .