1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Subferro]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

What's the alternative? Let him go so you don't hurt his feelings, then find out you've turned a criminal loose? Yeah that's a much better outcome.

How about if we gather evidence and then determine if he's guilty or not?

We did, or is that not what "later evidence proves he is indeed guilty" means?

Modifié par Subferro, 25 juillet 2011 - 01:42 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Subferro wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Subferro wrote...

So making the wrong decision based on the right reasons makes it the right choice?

Yes.

If I assume a suspect is guilty just because he's a quarian and later evidence proves he is indeed guilty was I justified for presuming his guilt, even though I was right in the end?

What's the alternative? Let him go so you don't hurt his feelings, then find out you've turned a criminal loose? Yeah that's a much better outcome.

But that isn't much different then giving a potential superweapon to Cerberus I'm not going to use certain buzzwords but I will say they are criminal in nature.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Aw, crap. I'm starting to notice how prolonged exposure to this here thread is making me doubt my previous decisions. And not just the Collector Base one; I'm starting to have second thoughts about Overlord as well...

in what way?

I've gone from a "honour before reason" stance to a somewhat more practical one, where blowing up the base just to stick it to the Man would almost be unthinkable. Almost.

I've never had doubts about any other ME choice before, bar the Genophage one.

[alperez]

wiggles89

We're forced to use the relays, not just the omega relay but all of them which gives me no option whatsoever in the matter. They are quite simply a gameplay mechanic thats forced on us and that we don't get the chance to question.

The base however is completely different in the simple fact that we're given a choice in the outcome of an event, for my part i use my interpretation of events so far and my own understanding of risks vs. rewards to come to a choice that i can live with.

As for TIM we'll again its my own interpretation of what kind of a person he is and what kind of an organisation Cerberus are that defines the choice i make.

I find him untrustworthy, someone willing to do whatever it takes regardless of the cost of his actions or who those actions may damage, so for me giving him the base (which is my only other choice) is not something i feel i can live with the consequences of, so i don't.

[alperez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

[
You do realize that they never intended for us to use the tech found in that base, right?

Who?

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Aw, crap. I'm starting to notice how prolonged exposure to this here thread is making me doubt my previous decisions. And not just the Collector Base one; I'm starting to have second thoughts about Overlord as well...

in what way?

I've gone from a "honour before reason" stance to a somewhat more practical one, where blowing up the base just to stick it to the Man would almost be unthinkable. Almost.

I've never had doubts about any other ME choice before, bar the Genophage one.

Thanks to guys like Dean the Young and Saphra here I've come to terms with some outcomes that I would have thought unthinkable before like killing the Rachni queen, killing Shiala,killing the Feros colonists, keeping David in Overlord,etc.

Still, there's three major choices that I'm still conflicted over due to having both equally valid outcomes (Heretic Geth fate,Rachni Queen fate and what to do with David) but thankfully I have two femsheps to deal with that.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I couldn't run the risk that if overlord succeeded Legion would be angry.

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I couldn't run the risk that if overlord succeeded Legion would be angry.

Legion doesn't have to know now does he?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I couldn't run the risk that if overlord succeeded Legion would be angry.

Legion doesn't have emotions so I don't think you need to be worried about that.

Figuratively angry. "We must inform our people of the Shepard threat." then it shoots me in the face with the nice widow I bought for it.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:03 .

[Subferro]

wiggles89 wrote...

No. The type of scenario Saphra was referring to was one where the suspect was considered guilty only on the basis of their race. No investigation or anything that would lead you to believe the suspect was guilty for any other reason than their race was performed.

Then I did misread it, I thought that we assumed that the suspect was guilty based on race, but evidence later confirmed our assumption.

When you put it the way you did, it's a completely different scenario, and there's no way of knowing if we made the right call.

Modifié par Subferro, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:06 .

[Subferro]

For someone generally taking a 'renegade' approach you seem awfully worried about the ends not justifying the means.

Was assuming the quarian was guilty on the basis of race the "morally right" thing to do? No. Did it get the job done? Absolutely.

[Seboist]

HomelessGal wrote...

I always found Legion's idealism somewhat naive, especially considering that the developers made it so that to get the best result in the Suicide Misison you have to alter the Normandy with technology from multiple alien races.

Legion initially endorses keeping the Collector base before the writers make it do a complete 180 out of nowhere back on the Normandy.

"Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

[Kaiser Shepard]

Bah, I don't like the prospect of me becoming a full-on Cerbie. I know I've always flirted with the idea, but... well, I honestly don't know. Over the course of only 10 days, I've gone from:

"The Illusive Man is a schemer and a manipulator, and those are never to be trusted."

to 

"Your logic is undeniable, it seems so heartless."

And now, I might finally decide to actually keep the base, believing my actions to be justified. I think I might actually - dare I say - metagame this one once Mass 3 out, based on there being an option for Shepard to outscheme TIM and take over Cerberus or not.

That is really something I miss in recent BioWare games: an intelligent protagonist who is allowed to plot his/her own advancement. Origins did this in a decent way, depending on your origin, but aside from that... nothing. Obsidian's Alpha Protocol really shone in this department, even allowing you to play a magnificent bastard. And I hear New Vegas manages to somewhat pull this off as well.

[Chrismm]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Let it never be said I can't be offended on the behalf of Paragons everywhere. If there's one choice which seems to be a non-choice for the Paragons, a significant choice which makes no apparent difference... the Collector Base may well be that choice. Given all the post-ME2 side material, it's increasingly hard to justify destroying the base as anything but a petty 'stick it to TIM' gesture... and believe it or not, I want people to have other reasons avaiable for taking actions.



Was it to destroy the corrupt knowledge and secrets, to 'preserve the soul of our species'? 

Even the Shadow Broker intended to cross the relay and learn as much as possible... and the Reapers arrival will mean Reaper tech for everyone (if we survive). Paragon Shepard wasn't keeping the technology from people, just delaying it.



Was it to deny Cerberus any Reaper technology? 

Regardless of the decision, enough Reaper and Collector technology exists for Cerberus to craft its own Reaper-technology experiment: the effects of Retribution, and the Grayson experiments.



Was it to stop Cerberus from hurting other species with and for the technology inside? 

The upcoming comic Invasion features Cerberus unleashing a new creation from beyond the Omega 4 relay into the streets of Omega, a creation that may wipe out Aria herself.



Was it to stop Cerberus from indoctrinating itself?

Well, Mass Effect 3's E3 demos rather addressed how well that worked.



Was it because blown up Reaper technology is safe Reaper technology?

Well, given all of the above...



I'm annoyed, and I didn't even make this choice. You may be annoyed as well. And together, we'll be pair annoyed.

If the best justifications for destroying the Collector Base were to protect people from what was inside, and destroying it does not do that... was there still good reason to do so?

Ok i havnt read any replies to this (somthing i dont usually do unless i have no plans to reply myself) So if someone else has said this then sorry for the repeat.

When it came to this point in the game were the choice came to destroy or clear out the collector base i choose to destroy it for one reason that i noticed popped up a few times in both games. And that reason was that when the races of the galaxy follow the path of technology that the reapears laid out for them(the mass relays and such) the reapers used it against them to the fullest extent and wiped all life in the galaxy out( we learn that this was how the protheans died out and all the other races that came before) so when a choice came to give reaper technology to TIM for study or destroy it and force him to research other means i decided to force him to make technology through other means. You could say i decided to learn from history and prevent it repeating itself

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I always hated that,all the characters that do a 180 on the ship, I understand the potential for reward,I also understand that TIM can go to hell.  that the potential for failure is there.You need every resource you can get,and not using the base wastes all those lives,but if Cerberus finds anything will they even be able to use it? how will they use it? it has been said that we only go to clean up their messes and we haven't seen their successes,which is exactly why it can be argued that blowing up the base was the right decision.It isn't metagaming to think Cerberus is going to royally fail,Shep has seen plenty of Cerberus failure,admitedly not total failure but the point is still valid.

And this is all semantics until ME3 comes out and one side gets to neenerneener the other,or figure out it didn't make the slightest difference.