1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You sure like your buzz words, don't you?

Just as much as you like trying to justify all their actions, no matter how sadistic and nonsensical they are.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And you know this, how...?

I'll type it slowly.

It's a factory.
Filled with Collector Tech.
Run by Collectors.
To build Reapers.
Using Reaper tech.

You know, I didn't think I had to spell it out for you. You keep surprising me.

Oh, wait. You don't. You're just pulling that out of your ass to try and justify giving Cerberus more doomsday devices.

Please sir, calm down. It appears you're making an ass out of yourself. You sure you're not a Renegade?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .

[Inverness Moon]

EsterCloat wrote...

I'd really like to know what this magical awesome tech the pro-keeping the base crowd thinks the base holds. From what I saw, the thing just floated there with no defensive systems at all(aside from the Oculus, which were just flying AI lasers). We have the Collector beam tech, we have the thanix cannon off of Sovereign's corpse, we have the Reaper IFF. I don't see what that base offers if you keep it aside from liquifying people tech, paralyzing bug corpses, collector corpses, and I guess organic-metal base construction. None that I see are that useful against an armada of advanced living spaceships.

It was being used to build a reaper. That is really all that needs to be said.

If they were expecting to complete a full sized reaper in that base, and not just its core, then that means they'll be capable of building something like Sovereign. That means offensive and defensive technologies for the reapers, including indoctrination. That is all information that will be vital to the war effort.

Of course, don't forget that the collectors have a history of trading advanced technology to other species. Where do you think that comes from?

Anyhow, of course, us base-savers don't know for certain. But I'd rather save it and find out it is entirely full of coffee machines than to destroy it and possibly our salvation along with it without even bothering to investigate.

Here's how I see it: everytime I've come up to whole Reaper tech it's tried to kill me directly and/or indirectly. Thus, I've adopted a very simple precept: do not deal with Reaper tech until it's been blown up completely and/or shot at sufficiently.

The derelict reaper was shot with a powerfule enough weapon to carve a canyon into a planet visible from space. You really don't know what causes indoctrination, so you can't know at what point it stops working without testing. 

By the way, don't forget EDI is made from reaper tech. You'd better fry her AI core before she goes all "vanguard of your destruction" on your ass.

On that note, it would be interesting if EDI was effectively Sovereign's reincarnation. 

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because Collector technology is so much like Reaper technology, right?

Are you being sarcastic? Everyone is always clammouring about how the collector base must be a reaper indoctrination trap and all that.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Just as much as you like trying to justify all their actions, no matter how sadistic and nonsensical they are.

As far as Cerberus's actions are concerned, if it makes the difference between winning or losing against the reapers, then that is justification enough for me.

But more specifically, I don't agree with or like everything they do. The bit was Kahoku lacked class entirely.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'll type it slowly.

It's a factory.
Filled with Collector Tech.
Run by Collectors.
To build Reapers.
Using Reaper tech.

You know, I didn't think I had to spell it out for you. You keep surprising me.

Because, Harbinger can't store valuable data somewhere else and access it only when needed, just like Legion, right?

And if you're talking about this thing, in case you didn't notice, we blew that thing up.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because, Harbinger can't store valuable data somewhere else and access it only when needed, just like Legion, right?

Because E.D.I already accessed the Collector Base's data when we landed? She got the schematics for the base itself from the Collector Base? She even sent those schematics to TIM? And if you wish to bring metagame up, you also see Reaper plans in the ending?

And if you're talking about this thing, in case you didn't notice, we blew that thing up.

We also blew up Sovereign and got a lot of knowledge from it's remains, a Reaper-in-building can also provide a lot of knowledge if you ignore everything else about the Base.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The big kicker is that Shepard's been working with Cerberus throughout all of Mass Effect 2. He used his equipment, used his crew, and used his technologies (some of which are the results of his studying of the Reapers).

I think that it's possible for enemies to put their differences aside to stop a common enemy, even if you need to stay on guard in the process.

And for those who view Cerberus as such a terrible group... how do you explain Shepard working with them to save just humans (not even all humans... just 'the lost') but not willing to work with them to save the entire galaxy... (humans too)

Cerberus is on the 'X' list already by the Council, so it's not like you need a reason or evidence to hunt them down at any time.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:11 .

[Homebound]

ok guys lets try looking at it this way.

lets pretend the collector base was instead a nuclear bomb.

would you give a nuclear bomb to a terrorist group?

[Kaiser Shepard]

EsterCloat wrote...

I'd really like to know what this magical awesome tech the pro-keeping the base crowd thinks the base holds.

One of the better case scenarios would be seeker swarms rapidly sweeping clean entire cities or even planets of anything that even remotely resembles a husk, saving the lives of many a soldier. Now, whether that would be worth the prize of the weapon in question probably getting used against other non-humans down the line is up to you.

[Pepper4]

We must build our own future.

[Fredvdp]

I destroyed it because Sovereign made it quite clear that the Reapers want you to use their technology. I understand that the collector base probably doesn't fit in that plan and that Sovereign was just talking about mass relays, the Citadel and Mass Effect technology. Still, you're giving it to Cerberus and they replaced the collectors as pawns of the Reapers. So keeping the base is like throwing the collectors out to replace them with new baddies. I think that by keeping the base you've accomplished nothing in the end.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Hellbound555 wrote...

ok guys lets try looking at it this way.

lets pretend the collector base was instead a nuclear bomb.

would you give a nuclear bomb to a terrorist group?

The Collector Base made what we're fighting against... Reapers.

If we're fighting against nuclear bombs... yeah I'd pick a different analogy.

[Homebound]

Pepper4 wrote...

We must build our own future.

thats another thing. the reapers left the relays so the mass effect galaxy's tech would evolve in a specific way that they can counter. using the reaper tech on the collector base would only further their plan to have us rely on their tech.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Pepper4 wrote...

We must build our own future.

Says the species that use the Citadel and Mass Relays.

[Inverness Moon]

Hellbound555 wrote...

ok guys lets try looking at it this way.

lets pretend the collector base was instead a nuclear bomb.

would you give a nuclear bomb to a terrorist group?

Pretending the collector base is something else isn't a way to make a credible argument.

[Inverness Moon]

Pepper4 wrote...

We must build our own future.

You say that, yet I doubt you'd be advocating people give up mass effect technology if you lived in that universe.

Anyhow, the galaxy doesn't have the luxury of trying to build its own technology entirely seperate from the reapers', they're already here.

Hellbound555 wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

We must build our own future.

thats another thing. the reapers left the relays so the mass effect galaxy's tech would evolve in a specific way that they can counter. using the reaper tech on the collector base would only further their plan to have us rely on their tech.

Except that is completely wrong for reasons I explained several times already.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:16 .

[Homebound]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

ok guys lets try looking at it this way.

lets pretend the collector base was instead a nuclear bomb.

would you give a nuclear bomb to a terrorist group?

Pretending the collector base is something else isn't a way to make a credible argument.

what im trying to get at is, the collector base DOES have advanced technology on it. why would you give all that leverage to a terrorist group? besides the part where reapers want us using their tech, this is another reason not to give cerberus that base.

another analogy would be giving someone a gun during medieval europe. do u see how technology changes battlefields so drastically?

Modifié par Hellbound555, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:18 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...
We also blew up Sovereign and got a lot of knowledge from it's remains, a Reaper-in-building can also provide a lot of knowledge if you ignore everything else about the Base.

The difference is that Sovereign was a full-grown Reaper. That guy was far from completion.

And even if we know how they're made doesn't mean we automatically have a means of countering them. We don't know their battle strategies and we certainly can't just pull a anti-Reaper weapon out of nowhere.

Because that'd be anticlimactic.

[Dave of Canada]

EsterCloat wrote...

I'd really like to know what this magical awesome tech the pro-keeping the base crowd thinks the base holds.

• Reaper blueprints.
• Remains of the Human Reaper.
• Seeker swarms.
• More tech on particle weaponry.
• More tech on regenerative plating.
• A plague that can be built to target specific species / targets.
• Research into indocrination.
• Research into Husks / Praetorians / Scions.
• Something to track down targets.
• Something to shut down the power / communications of entire colonies (possibly more large scale?)
• .. and more.

Reverse-engineer or become knowledgable about any number of these things and we're capable of applying them for many uses in the coming Reaper invasion.

For a few applications of the tech (not the research) if we're successfully capable of reverse engineering it:

• Seeker swarms to shut down entire indocrinated colonies / cities.
• Shutting down the power / communications of indocrinated colonies / cities.
• Turning the dead from the Reaper invasion into husks / praetorians / scions fighting the Reapers.
• Using the plague to wipe out indocrinated colonies / cities.

[Homebound]

^And when the reapers r gone, we'll end up killing each other with it. Especially since cerberus is pro-human..and the citadel races would be beat up after the invasion...and humans have a tendency to kill things..

[Someone With Mass]

If the human-Reaper can't withstand small arms fire, I really doubt anything of use will be left of it if it explodes.

[Inverness Moon]

Hellbound555 wrote...

what im trying to get at is, the collector base DOES have advanced technology on it. why would you give all that leverage to a terrorist group? besides the part where reapers want us using their tech, this is another reason not to give cerberus that base.

I already explained why "the part where reapers want us using their tech" is a silly defense. (In short: they don't want us to be as powerful as them).

You call Cerberus a terrorist group, and I call them the only group (other than Shepard and his crew) doing **** to fight the reapers. Giving it to them and hoping some valuable technology or intelligence is gained for use against the reapers is better than blowing it up and hoping it didn't contain the key to winning the war.

TIM is interested in stopping the reapers, and I need all of the allies I can get.

Someone With Mass wrote...

The difference is that Sovereign was a full-grown Reaper. That guy was far from completion.

And even if we know how they're made doesn't mean we automatically have a means of countering them. We don't know their battle strategies and we certainly can't just pull a anti-Reaper weapon out of nowhere.

Because that'd be anticlimactic.

You're correct that we don't automatically have a means of countering them. Except no one was suggesting that. Saving the base leaves open the possibility of discovering a means of countering them from whatever might be left on it, which is the the entire point. Blowing it up just removes any possibility of that. It is short-sighted.

As for reaper battle strategies, if you listened to what Vigil said in ME1, you know that reapers indoctrinate people then send them out as refugees who later betray those groups in hiding to the reapers. The collector base is pretty damn good place to start trying to find a counter to indoctrinate before the reapers start using the same tactic on us.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
We also blew up Sovereign and got a lot of knowledge from it's remains, a Reaper-in-building can also provide a lot of knowledge if you ignore everything else about the Base.

The difference is that Sovereign was a full-grown Reaper. That guy was far from completion.

And even if we know how they're made doesn't mean we automatically have a means of countering them. We don't know their battle strategies and we certainly can't just pull a anti-Reaper weapon out of nowhere.

Because that'd be anticlimactic.

What, you're not counting on possibly having a handful of dei ex machina in Mass 3's finale?

[Amratis]

To the OP - Sticking it to TIM was a good enough reason for me to blow it up in most of my playthroughs

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

• Reaper blueprints.
• Remains of the Human Reaper.
• Seeker swarms.
• More tech on particle weaponry.
• More tech on regenerative plating.
• A plague that can be built to target specific species / targets.
• Research into indocrination.
• Research into Husks / Praetorians / Scions.
• Something to track down targets.
• Something to shut down the power / communications of entire colonies (possibly more large scale?)
• .. and more.

Reverse-engineer or become knowledgable about any number of these things and we're capable of applying them for many uses in the coming Reaper invasion.

For a few applications of the tech (not the research) if we're successfully capable of reverse engineering it:

• Seeker swarms to shut down entire indocrinated colonies / cities.
• Shutting down the power / communications of indocrinated colonies / cities.
• Turning the dead from the Reaper invasion into husks / praetorians / scions fighting the Reapers.
• Using the plague to wipe out indocrinated colonies / cities.

You know, you're making very good points to why people shouldn't give this technology to Cerberus.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:25 .