1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Bah, I don't like the prospect of me becoming a full-on Cerbie. I know I've always flirted with the idea, but... well, I honestly don't know. Over the course of only 10 days, I've gone from:

"The Illusive Man is a schemer and a manipulator, and those are never to be trusted."

to 

"Your logic is undeniable, it seems so heartless."

And now, I might finally decide to actually keep the base, believing my actions to be justified. I think I might actually - dare I say - metagame this one once Mass 3 out, based on there being an option for Shepard to outscheme TIM and take over Cerberus or not.

That is really something I miss in recent BioWare games: an intelligent protagonist who is allowed to plot his/her own advancement. Origins did this in a decent way, depending on your origin, but aside from that... nothing. Obsidian's Alpha Protocol really shone in this department, even allowing you to play a magnificent bastard. And I hear New Vegas manages to somewhat pull this off as well.

I kept the base in my first playthrough even though my Shepard wasn't 100% pro-Cerberus (she agreed with their human dominance stance but wasn't found of their methods and didn't fully trust them) and after keeping the Rawlings data for herself and taking David out of Project Overlord. She kept it because she thought it would be vital against the Reapers and she trusted Cerberus/TIM enough due to them providing great support for that end thus far. It wasn't about being pro-Cerberus or about wanting human dominance(altough the latter is a nice bonus).

It might surprise some on here that my canon Shep is actually the least pro-Cerberus of my three Shepards.

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

 I think I might actually - dare I say - metagame this one once Mass 3 out, based on there being an option for Shepard to outscheme TIM and take over Cerberus or not.

That is really something I miss in recent BioWare games: an intelligent protagonist...

Shepard is not an intelligent protagonist. Not in the way you are describing. He's clever, but not intellectually gifted. I wouldn't bet money on Shepard taking over Cerberus because s/he just doesn't have the right mindset or skills to manage an organization like that. I'm not even sure Shepard would be a good general. Commander is probably right at the level Shepard should be.

You might be able to put someone other than Shepard into power though, like Miranda maybe.

However I wouldn't be that surprised if TIM survives ME3 no matter what and continues running Cerberus.

Yeah and I personally prefer the idea of my Shepard acting as a field agent getting her hands dirty over being stuck behind a desk job.

[ODST 5723]

HomelessGal wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Legion initially endorses keeping the Collector base before the writers make it do a complete 180 out of nowhere back on the Normandy.

"Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Yeah; Legion's flip-flop there bothers me almost as much as Mordin's.

Legion didn't flip-flop.  It made a statement of fact, followed by a hypothesis.  I can do that as well, without believing in the hypothesis that I pose.  But I'm not a networked AI that forms its opnions based on consensus, so you can have to try to figure out how many layers of grey exist in my decision making model.

People read too much into Legion's statement there, IMO.  To me it looks as if Legion's playing the devil's advocate by providing some context for the decision and highlighting a logical expected value.  When it follows up with Shepard afterwards you're getting its actual opinion.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

ODST 5723 wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Legion initially endorses keeping the Collector base before the writers make it do a complete 180 out of nowhere back on the Normandy.

"Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others."

Yeah; Legion's flip-flop there bothers me almost as much as Mordin's.

Legion didn't flip-flop.  It made a statement of fact, followed by a hypothesis.  I can do that as well, without believing in the hypothesis that I pose.  But I'm not a networked AI that forms its opnions based on consensus, so you can have to try to figure out how many layers of grey exist in my decision making model.

People read too much into Legion's statement there, IMO.  To me it looks as if Legion's playing the devil's advocate by providing some context for the decision and highlighting a logical expected value.  When it follows up with Shepard afterwards you're getting its actual opinion.

He makes a similar statement on Heretic Station "We do not endorse the idea,we have just proposed it." something like that

[Kaiser Shepard]

I guess I'll just go with destroying the Star Forge, then. That is, unless ME3 ultimately proves Shep to not be such an idiot after all.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Well heroic Shepard isn't a hero he's a self righteous Spectre on a quest of self gratification.
sarcasm/

[Savber100]

Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That's different...Shepards goal is to win,

Not if you play Paragon. Then his goal is to feel good about himself.

If you support blowing up the relay in Arrival you should support sacrificing the Council in ME1 and saving the base in ME2.

Dumbest post I've seen in this thread.

I support blowing up the relay. I can even find reason and logic in sacrificing the Council. But saving the base and giving it to TIM is just plain dumb.

When you save the base, you're dumb and your whole squad will tell you how dumb you are. I recently finished my all-Renegade playthrough and kept the base. My entire squad on the Normandy told my Shepard how dumb he was. The worst thing is that I as the player agreed with the crew. ;

Hehe.. won't it be awesome if Bioware then sucker punches us by making the decision to save the Collector's Base becoming crucial for victory? 

Either way, Shepard would take down Cerberus. We've killed a Reaper, got to Illos, escaped a nuclear explosion, defeated the Shadow Broker, and crossed the Omega 4 Relay so TIM should be no problem.

Now, in saving the base, we should be able to get the Collector tech and somehow use it against the Reapers. From recent previews (I think it was from SDCC) TIM has already created something out of the base whether you destroyed it or not. What if that THING would be crucial for the war except in the Paragon path the device is half-made because of Base's destruction while if you defeat TIM in ME3, you'll get this interesting device? 


Either way, it could be a good twist and also deepens the game beyond good and evil.

[Sepewrath]

Why blow up the base, well besides the fact that it has a dead Reaper in the basement and every time people play with things like that, it blows up in their face. I would think that is reason enough. I think the last thing people need is that base, flanked by a Reaper coming through the Omega relay shooting holes in the Normandy because we decided this is the one time, intact Reaper tech, would not bite us in the ass.

[Kane Corr]

Bottom line:


Choices: Blow up base
Save base


Outcome: If you blow up the base, then Cerberus has a MUCH harder time salvaging the resources. Also, most of the Collecter research is lost. Greatly diminishing Cerberus' abilities to create technology based upon Reaper design. So, you semi-thwart their plans for ME3. Making your chances of success in defeating the Reapers and overall "winning," go up. Congrats!


If you saved the base...then, well, your screwed. Cerberus now has the technology to create many advanced items: weaponry, cyborg like creatures, etc. You HAD to expect something like this to go wrong. But, then again, maybe in that final moment, you know, when your facing that last Reaper wave...Cerberus pops in with reverse engineered Reaper tech to sort of battle the Reapers back, giving you time to escape a world, or even defeat the Reapers yourself. Either way, saving the base will lead to worse consequences for you and your team it seems. That's what you get for trusting the man with the glowing eyes.



There...the end.

[DaringMoosejaw]

wiggles89 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

That's different...Shepards goal is to win,

Not if you play Paragon. Then his goal is to feel good about himself.

If you support blowing up the relay in Arrival you should support sacrificing the Council in ME1 and saving the base in ME2.

Dumbest post I've seen in this thread.


I support blowing up the relay. I can even find reason and logic in sacrificing the Council. But saving the base and giving it to TIM is just plain dumb.

When you save the base, you're dumb and your whole squad will tell you how dumb you are. I recently finished my all-Renegade playthrough and kept the base. My entire squad on the Normandy told my Shepard how dumb he was. The worst thing is that I (as the player) agreed with the squad. ;

Renegade Shepard is pretty cool until he decides to be TIM's little b!tch.

If Saphra's post was the dumbest post in this thread, then you topped it easily.

And people think the Renegades on this board are douchebags.

Woo! Jingoism!

[Seboist]

Sepewrath wrote...

Why blow up the base, well besides the fact that it has a dead Reaper in the basement and every time people play with things like that, it blows up in their face. I would think that is reason enough. I think the last thing people need is that base, flanked by a Reaper coming through the Omega relay shooting holes in the Normandy because we decided this is the one time, intact Reaper tech, would not bite us in the ass.

Yeah, the thanix canon and EDI which were derived from Sovereign's remains really blew up in people's faces.......... oh wait.

[Ja5ck]

l DryIce l wrote...

 Destroying it does do "that". Honestly, we still don't know how big of an impact the Collector base is going to have in ME3. Saying, "well, look, Cerberus is indoctrinated anyway", is a very extreme way of looking at things. You don't know how more or less powerful Cerberus may be in ME3 depending on the status of the base. 

I didn't give TIM the base because I didn't trust him with using it. Does this mean that this will stop Cerberus from being powerful, or even using Reaper tech. No, but it does keep them from using the Reaper tech from the base. Again, we don't know how important the base is. We just have to wait. 

This

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reaper at the collector base is far from completely destroyed... It's "dead" but ther'es more then enough remains. It wasn't hit with capital-grade mass accelerators..Shep shot him in the head.

And again - how do you know what we would or would not get? What one gets depends on which parts are damaged and which are salagable, and hte "baby-reaper"  was left in a better shape than the other two. Not to mention it's a brand new reaper.

The baby repaer is made of human goo AND mechanical parts. This much is obvious.
Your assumptions are so far-fetched they border on fairy tales! And I see you avoid answering my other questions.

If you don't kow how much is in the base - why destroy it?
Save what little dignity you have left and capitulate.

Do you know what happend to the reaper after shep destroyed it? Nope didnt think so.

It fell down. Or what? Do you think it desintegrated?

And again, you do not know what we woudl or would not get, as I keep saying, any decsions after the fact is made on assumptions.  You kep avoiding this all together, you have no idea for sure what if anything woudl come of the base, you dont period, becasue you assume that it would doesnt mean it will.

Some assumption are far-fetched. Some are not. Some assumptions are based on reasonable expectations, common sense and probablility. Yours are not.

Again, you go to the fairy tale thing, this whole thing is a work of fiction, you treat it like it is real, the ideas I have presented are far fetched, but so are those presented int he game, so I think I am safe, my ideas being fairy tales, fit right in with the open possibilities of a fictional story. Go on keep saying the fairy tale thing, but dont forget this game is fiction.

HAhahaha...what uterly broken logic and reasoning. "ME is fictional, so making decisions that make 0 sense whatsoever is perfectly fine, since it's all fiction and fantasy anyway"
Dear Lord man... I could have a more intellectualy stimulating debate with a banana.

Without making assumptions you cannot say that the base wouldl provide anything  worth while at all, just like I cant  say it wont. Anything we both say is based off of an assumption. Thats a fact. You can say there are spare parts or plans, and I coudl say there is not. Outside of what the game prevents, there is assumptions.

And again avoiding the issue. You know the base could (and there's a HIGH probabiltiy it has) technology and data that can be used agaisnt them. You know the reapers are coming, and that the galaxy as it is just isn't ready for them. And yet you decide to blow up the base...and then call it smart???

Move on with your life and accept the fact that ideasof what could or could not come from the base are all assumptions. Guess what, no matter what you say, I blow up the base, I think it is the right decsion, I dont trust the illusive man to get the job done, I dont think the base ir worth saving no matter what you say, youll never convince me. Keep trying, but I will always blow up the base. My opinion, based off of my character, based off of my assumptions of what the base does or does not have, I am happy with my decision. I can live with it, I can live with you blowing up the base as well. Oh and my Shepard has always found a way to get the job done, so I feel confident he will find a way without the base.

I cna very well live perfectly fine wiht the idea that you blow up the base. I can also live perfectly fine with the idea that you shot yourself in the foot or decided to have a lobotomy. I don't mind that at all.
What I do mind is calling those two actions smart.
On second thought, since it's you..the latter one might be smart.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...
The base however is completely different in the simple fact that we're given a choice in the outcome of an event, for my part i use my interpretation of events so far and my own understanding of risks vs. rewards to come to a choice that i can live with.

As for TIM we'll again its my own interpretation of what kind of a person he is and what kind of an organisation Cerberus are that defines the choice i make.

I find him untrustworthy, someone willing to do whatever it takes regardless of the cost of his actions or who those actions may damage, so for me giving him the base (which is my only other choice) is not something i feel i can live with the consequences of, so i don't.

The problem is that your calculation is wrong.


Faliure to stop the reapers = end of life in the galaxy. Could you live with that?

Pelase tell me what can Cerberus do that is worse than that? I'd really love to hear it.

When it comes down to survival, morality takes a second seat. We're not talking about petty criminals or a some gang scuffle - it's global survival. Basic survival of the fittest. And humanity, and the other races, arne't fit!
We all saw the power of Sovereign. A single reaper. You saw how many more are coming. You really think Sheppard can stop them with his assault rifle?

And TIM certanly isn't a paragon, but he's no embodyment of evil either. His goal is to save humanity..to stop the reapers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chrismm wrote...

When it came to this point in the game were the choice came to destroy or clear out the collector base i choose to destroy it for one reason that i noticed popped up a few times in both games. And that reason was that when the races of the galaxy follow the path of technology that the reapears laid out for them(the mass relays and such) the reapers used it against them to the fullest extent and wiped all life in the galaxy out( we learn that this was how the protheans died out and all the other races that came before) so when a choice came to give reaper technology to TIM for study or destroy it and force him to research other means i decided to force him to make technology through other means. You could say i decided to learn from history and prevent it repeating itself

IIRC, the "develop along the path we desire" can be taken in several ways. It could mean that it makes the reaces dependant on mass relays - they do not develop their own way of interstellar travel. This is of course, a huge tactical advantage when the repaers shut down the relays (whih they failed to do).

Would researching reaper tech be bad? Not at all, especially when we know about the reapers. After all...know thy enemy. If you want ot develop a weapon effective agasnt the reapers, you fiirt have to know how the reapers themselves work. Their armor..their shielding..their internals.
Which means...researching their tech. And we saw the power of the Thanix cannon. If you want to go conventional tech, IMHO the best bet would be high-powered lasers...LOTS of them. And there's nothing preventing anyone from researching those.
Of course there is another problem - time. The reapers are coming. You don't have 20 years to research new weaponry and develop in a new direction completely. You got months. Just enough time that you may get something out of the collector base.


So you see, you're not really doing the galaxy a favor by blowing the base up.

[Lunatic LK47]

Seboist wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

Why blow up the base, well besides the fact that it has a dead Reaper in the basement and every time people play with things like that, it blows up in their face. I would think that is reason enough. I think the last thing people need is that base, flanked by a Reaper coming through the Omega relay shooting holes in the Normandy because we decided this is the one time, intact Reaper tech, would not bite us in the ass.

Yeah, the thanix canon and EDI which were derived from Sovereign's remains really blew up in people's faces.......... oh wait.

Except the main difference is Sovereign was blown up to pieces.

[Sundance31us]

Isn't everyone overlooking the fact that a large portion of Cerberus (TIM included) is indoctrinated?

[Sundance31us]

wiggles89 wrote...

Isn't everyone overlooking the fact that a large portion of Cerberus (TIM included) is indoctrinated?

What do you mean?

From "10 Things Mass Effect Fans MUST Know From Tie-ins" on newsarama.com
http://www.newsarama...t-3-110707.html

It's also mentioned in the demo. Not the part where Shepard and Anderson are trying to escape Earth; the part where he/she is trying to save a female Krogan, those are Cerberus operatives he's fighting.