1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Until we see how the decision affects us this argument is moot...

Not if we want to debate about which course of action is the most sensible given the available information at the time.

But in the end that just turns into paragon vs renegade which in turn becomes the unstopable force meets the immovable object.

Both choices are morally gray,both look for the greater good, Paragon is if we lose what makes us us then we may as well have already lost,renegade sees the base as an abomination and a tool,neither is irrational,neither is unsensible,it just comes down to what you personally beleive in.

The underlined part is bollocks. That's the problem.

Paragons think their petty idealism is going stop a race of machines that have been exterminating species for millions of years. That sure takes a lot of arrogance to say with a straight face.

[DJRackham]

It's a game, and a single player game at that. The fate of the galaxy is not really on the line. Does it really matter if you save the base or not? Do you only play through once? Do you not try different combinations to see what will result? Honestly, I think some people have way too much time on their hands and take things like this game much too seriously.

For the record, others not sharing your world view does not invalidate their world view.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJRackham wrote...

It's a game, and a single player game at that. The fate of the galaxy is not really on the line. Does it really matter if you save the base or not? Do you only play through once? Do you not try different combinations to see what will result? Honestly, I think some people have way too much time on their hands and take things like this game much too seriously.

For the record, others not sharing your world view does not invalidate their world view.

It's irrelevant if it's a game or not.

This not about player decision.

It's about what is a sensible decision for someone in Sheps shoes.

[jedierick]

And there we have it. It has nothing to do with reason or logic, simply your mistrust of Cerberus. Which, given what is at stake, is silly.
Trusting Cerberus is irrelevant. TIM doesn't want humanity destroyed by the reapers. Whatever he finds, he will use it agaisnt the reapers.

Are you as idiatoic as your posts woudl lead me to believe, I have always said I do not trust Cerberus, my stance has not changed. My mistrust of Cerberus is enough to make me second guess any choice that involves the.  In addition to me not trusting them, I dont think they will be able top ull it off, based on their history with screwing up this type of situation.


Shepard was the first on the scene. TIM could have sent someone else...a entire detachment of cerberus elite troopers. So you cna't really say it's a instant-faliure wihout Sheppard.

TIm coud have but didnt, TIM coudl have been bette rprepared but he wasnt, TIM could have spent the money he used to ressurect Shepard on researching the reapers, TIM coudl have don a lot but he didnt, another point on his inability to deal with this situation


Bollocks. The risk factor is the same. Indoctrination doesn't care if you're turian or Cerberus.
And what Cerberus history? The only thing you have to go on is the Derelict Reaper - which ended up yielding critical results! 


Get up to speed, I already said indoctrination was the wrong example, stop avoiding my answer.Cerberus history shows screw ups with the derelict reaper, theorean creepers, rachni, etc, their list is long. Nothing in the game tells me not to trust the turians. Cerberus has given me reasons not to trust or think they can get the job done, turians as of yet have not. The derelict reaper got the IFF yes, no denying that, but it was a failure in that TIM didnt keep his team under control. What makes you think he will with a collector base?


It's just unreasonable to the max, to deny the galaxy the collector base, simply because you don't trust Cerberus. Trust is irrelevant. Survival is the only thing that matters.
And with you at the helm, the galaxy would persih a hunderd times over

Trust is very releivant, if I dont trust someone, how do I know they will do the job they say they will? Answer is, you dont know what TIM wil do with the base tech, he has lied several times to shepard, so why think he will followi through with his word to use the base for good? Answer is you dont know, you have no way of knowing.


and heere we see an interesting patters. As a broken theory/redicolous assunmptions is dissected and torn down, oyu come up wiht a new one, ignore it, or switch track. Rinse and repeat.

Funny how their thread went from "all repaer tech is EEEBIL" to "the base is immoral in itself" to "giving it Cerberus is more dangerous" to "well I just dont' like them!"
My initial assesment of base-destroyers being self-absorbed is proving correct.


You have not torn down anything, you keep talking about ignoring things when you youreelf break your own rules. Get over yourself, just becasue you dont understand something or agree with it doesnt invalidate it. The stance has stayed the same, base keepers just dont like to admit they could be wrong. Your logic has points for sure, but I dont agree with them. Your line of thinking risks more by giving the base to Cerberus, mine does not. I a m more comfrtable finding a different way to beat the reapers. Tell you what, in the future, if not having the base ends up being bad, then I will agree with your POV, otherwise I will be happy in the future, knowing I was right. Also I never said Reaper tech was evil, I just said I dont trust Cerberus to get the job done, for reasons I have already given.

Modifié par jedierick, 26 juillet 2011 - 02:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...


And there we have it. It has nothing to do with reason or logic, simply your mistrust of Cerberus. Which, given what is at stake, is silly.
Trusting Cerberus is irrelevant. TIM doesn't want humanity destroyed by the reapers. Whatever he finds, he will use it agaisnt the reapers.

Are you as idiatoic as your posts woudl lead me to believe, I have always said I do not trust Cerberus, my stance has not changed. My mistrust of Cerberus is enough to make me second guess any choice that involves the.  In addition to me not trusting them, I dont think they will be able top ull it off, based on their history with screwing up this type of situation.

So the fate of the galaxy, the survival of every sentient race...takes second seat to Sheppars Ego? That every has to earn HIS trust? That that is the msot important thing in the equation?
It is precisely the mistrust of Cerberus that completely taints your perspective.
You dont' have to trust TIM or Cerberus..what you should trust is that TIM wants to save humanity as much as Shepaprd does.

Shepard was the first on the scene. TIM could have sent someone else...a entire detachment of cerberus elite troopers. So you cna't really say it's a instant-faliure wihout Sheppard.

TIm coud have but didnt, TIM coudl have been bette rprepared but he wasnt, TIM could have spent the money he used to ressurect Shepard on researching the reapers, TIM coudl have don a lot but he didnt, another point on his inability to deal with this situation

What a moronic way of thinking.

Money spent on Sheppard was money well spent (evidently).
You want TIM to spend money research the repars!? Then why did you blow up the base? You need to have something to research and study! What should TIM have done? Tell me, oh great genius?

Sheppard could have been better prepared (and not beign blow up by hte collectors) The alliance could have been better prepared. The alien races chould have been better prepared. As Admiral Hackett said - Cerberus is the only one trying to really do something about the reapers (excluding Sheppard).
Could have, should have is irrelevant.

Get up to speed, I already said indoctrination was the wrong example, stop avoiding my answer.Cerberus history shows screw ups with the derelict reaper, theorean creepers, rachni, etc, their list is long. Nothing in the game tells me not to trust the turians. Cerberus has given me reasons not to trust or think they can get the job done, turians as of yet have not. The derelict reaper got the IFF yes, no denying that, but it was a failure in that TIM didnt keep his team under control. What makes you think he will with a collector base?

The Derelict reaper was a unique situation. First contact wiht indoctrination device. Are ypou telling me somoene else could have done a better job? If so, prove it.

And yes, we have severl Cerberus experiments gone wrong - but you fail to ask yourself why. First of all, Cerberus is in a hurry to get ready for hte reapers. You can't always take hte safe path - not when you don't have the luxury of time.
Second is just bad writing by Bio. They needed more side mission and they didn't have any good ideas.
Third, prove to me that the scre-up wouldnt' have been contained without Sheppard. The Rachni queen for example was still in captivity. A strike team could have killed her just as easily as Sheppard. And if paragon Shep lets her go..the nthe screw-up isn't a Cerberus one, now is it?

It's just unreasonable to the max, to deny the galaxy the collector base, simply because you don't trust Cerberus. Trust is irrelevant. Survival is the only thing that matters.
And with you at the helm, the galaxy would persih a hunderd times over

Trust is very releivant, if I dont trust someone, how do I know they will do the job they say they will? Answer is, you dont know what TIM wil do with the base tech, he has lied several times to shepard, so why think he will followi through with his word to use the base for good? Answer is you dont know, you have no way of knowing.

What else would he use it for?
TIM lied, but all the time it was a calculated risk - that paid off. TIM's goals are known - strong humanity. He helps you fight agaisnt the reapers. And you know the Cerberus personell with you are dedicated to fighting the reapers too.
Do you really think people will just let themselves get killed wihout fighting back? Do you think TIM wants to die?

TIM WILL reseaarch reper tech, because there's not much else he cna do with it. If you dont' trust his use of it, steal ti from him later.
But no..destroy everything. Deny the galaxy a destinct advantage.....that is SMART!<_<

You have not torn down anything, you keep talking about ignoring things when you youreelf break your own rules. Get over yourself, just becasue you dont understand something or agree with it doesnt invalidate it. The stance has stayed the same, base keepers just dont like to admit they could be wrong. Your logic has points for sure, but I dont agree with them. Your line of thinking risks more by giving the base to Cerberus, mine does not. I a m more comfrtable finding a different way to beat the reapers. Tell you what, in the future, if not having the base ends up being bad, then I will agree with your POV, otherwise I will be happy in the future, knowing I was right. Also I never said Reaper tech was evil, I just said I dont trust Cerberus to get the job done, for reasons I have already given.

I don't understand stupidity.
Your points have been invalidated, one after another. You got nothing, had nothing and will have nothing.
You take massive risks for nothing but your own (Sheps) ego.

Again, it doesn't matter how it turns out. Resonable deduction and facts at the time of decision making is what matters.TtI's that what make a decision reasonable or not.

[jedierick]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...


And there we have it. It has nothing to do with reason or logic, simply your mistrust of Cerberus. Which, given what is at stake, is silly.
Trusting Cerberus is irrelevant. TIM doesn't want humanity destroyed by the reapers. Whatever he finds, he will use it agaisnt the reapers.

Are you as idiatoic as your posts woudl lead me to believe, I have always said I do not trust Cerberus, my stance has not changed. My mistrust of Cerberus is enough to make me second guess any choice that involves the.  In addition to me not trusting them, I dont think they will be able top ull it off, based on their history with screwing up this type of situation.

So the fate of the galaxy, the survival of every sentient race...takes second seat to Sheppars Ego? That every has to earn HIS trust? That that is the msot important thing in the equation?
It is precisely the mistrust of Cerberus that completely taints your perspective.
You dont' have to trust TIM or Cerberus..what you should trust is that TIM wants to save humanity as much as Shepaprd does.

Shepard was the first on the scene. TIM could have sent someone else...a entire detachment of cerberus elite troopers. So you cna't really say it's a instant-faliure wihout Sheppard.

TIm coud have but didnt, TIM coudl have been bette rprepared but he wasnt, TIM could have spent the money he used to ressurect Shepard on researching the reapers, TIM coudl have don a lot but he didnt, another point on his inability to deal with this situation

What a moronic way of thinking.

Money spent on Sheppard was money well spent (evidently).
You want TIM to spend money research the repars!? Then why did you blow up the base? You need to have something to research and study! What should TIM have done? Tell me, oh great genius?

Sheppard could have been better prepared (and not beign blow up by hte collectors) The alliance could have been better prepared. The alien races chould have been better prepared. As Admiral Hackett said - Cerberus is the only one trying to really do something about the reapers (excluding Sheppard).
Could have, should have is irrelevant.

Get up to speed, I already said indoctrination was the wrong example, stop avoiding my answer.Cerberus history shows screw ups with the derelict reaper, theorean creepers, rachni, etc, their list is long. Nothing in the game tells me not to trust the turians. Cerberus has given me reasons not to trust or think they can get the job done, turians as of yet have not. The derelict reaper got the IFF yes, no denying that, but it was a failure in that TIM didnt keep his team under control. What makes you think he will with a collector base?

The Derelict reaper was a unique situation. First contact wiht indoctrination device. Are ypou telling me somoene else could have done a better job? If so, prove it.

And yes, we have severl Cerberus experiments gone wrong - but you fail to ask yourself why. First of all, Cerberus is in a hurry to get ready for hte reapers. You can't always take hte safe path - not when you don't have the luxury of time.
Second is just bad writing by Bio. They needed more side mission and they didn't have any good ideas.
Third, prove to me that the scre-up wouldnt' have been contained without Sheppard. The Rachni queen for example was still in captivity. A strike team could have killed her just as easily as Sheppard. And if paragon Shep lets her go..the nthe screw-up isn't a Cerberus one, now is it?

It's just unreasonable to the max, to deny the galaxy the collector base, simply because you don't trust Cerberus. Trust is irrelevant. Survival is the only thing that matters.
And with you at the helm, the galaxy would persih a hunderd times over

Trust is very releivant, if I dont trust someone, how do I know they will do the job they say they will? Answer is, you dont know what TIM wil do with the base tech, he has lied several times to shepard, so why think he will followi through with his word to use the base for good? Answer is you dont know, you have no way of knowing.

What else would he use it for?
TIM lied, but all the time it was a calculated risk - that paid off. TIM's goals are known - strong humanity. He helps you fight agaisnt the reapers. And you know the Cerberus personell with you are dedicated to fighting the reapers too.
Do you really think people will just let themselves get killed wihout fighting back? Do you think TIM wants to die?

TIM WILL reseaarch reper tech, because there's not much else he cna do with it. If you dont' trust his use of it, steal ti from him later.
But no..destroy everything. Deny the galaxy a destinct advantage.....that is SMART!<_<

You have not torn down anything, you keep talking about ignoring things when you youreelf break your own rules. Get over yourself, just becasue you dont understand something or agree with it doesnt invalidate it. The stance has stayed the same, base keepers just dont like to admit they could be wrong. Your logic has points for sure, but I dont agree with them. Your line of thinking risks more by giving the base to Cerberus, mine does not. I a m more comfrtable finding a different way to beat the reapers. Tell you what, in the future, if not having the base ends up being bad, then I will agree with your POV, otherwise I will be happy in the future, knowing I was right. Also I never said Reaper tech was evil, I just said I dont trust Cerberus to get the job done, for reasons I have already given.

I don't understand stupidity.
Your points have been invalidated, one after another. You got nothing, had nothing and will have nothing.
You take massive risks for nothing but your own (Sheps) ego.

Again, it doesn't matter how it turns out. Resonable deduction and facts at the time of decision making is what matters.TtI's that what make a decision reasonable or not.

There is not much else TIM can do with the tech? WOW, pretty blind statement there, there is a definition of stupidity right there, trusting that TIM wont do anything but help with the tech he might or might not get from the base. Moronic way of thinking.

Shepards ego goes both ways, if he thinks he can find another way without the base = ego, if he thinks he can control Cerberus and scare them into doing the right thing = ego. Either way ego plays a roll, your point here is meaninless unless apllied to your line of thinking as well.

I am done debating with you, you are as set in your ways as I am, your way of thinking is just as moronic to me as mine is to yours. You contradict your so called facts time and time over, one minute we should not trust Sheps "ego" the next minute it was money well spent on brining him back, along with his ego. One minute it is the success of the mission is all that matters, the next minute it only matters if  shepards ego doesnt get in the way. You avoid answers to my questions and fail to admit when your line of thinking coudl be just as wrong as mine. Your problem is that you dont think you coud be wrong, I am perfectly fin admitting that any choice is made off an assumption, yours, just as well as mine could easily be wrong. Seeing as thogh Shepard has found a way, to defeat reapers before, FACT, and Cerberus has had more probljms with the reapers than success, FACT, I am comfortable in my decision. Moving on, enjoy your fruit.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...
There is not much else TIM can do with the tech? WOW, pretty blind statement there, there is a definition of stupidity right there, trusting that TIM wont do anything but help with the tech he might or might not get from the base. Moronic way of thinking.

TIM will research the tech because that's what you do with new alien tech. You reasearch it. No matter what, new knowledge and data will come of it. It will end up in Cerberus hands. From there it will probably go the alliance.
If not, you can take it from Cerberus by force.

What is moronic is thinking TIM wants to ensalve everyone else and that he will do nothing as repers destroy humanity.

Shepards ego goes both ways, if he thinks he can find another way without the base = ego, if he thinks he can control Cerberus and scare them into doing the right thing = ego. Either way ego plays a roll, your point here is meaninless unless apllied to your line of thinking as well.

Nope. You see I don't think Shep can control Cerberus. He doesn't have to. Shaep can't control the Allaince either. That is irrelevant.
I know what TIM wants and what the Galaxy needs. These goals are compatible..for now.
Dealing with Cerberus, even if it goes completly hostile, is far easier than dealing with Repears. Getting reper tech from cerberus is easier than getting repaer tech from the repars.

I am done debating with you, you are as set in your ways as I am, your way of thinking is just as moronic to me as mine is to yours. You contradict your so called facts time and time over, one minute we should not trust Sheps "ego" the next minute it was money well spent on brining him back, along with his ego. One minute it is the success of the mission is all that matters, the next minute it only matters if  shepards ego doesnt get in the way. You avoid answers to my questions and fail to admit when your line of thinking coudl be just as wrong as mine. Your problem is that you dont think you coud be wrong, I am perfectly fin admitting that any choice is made off an assumption, yours, just as well as mine could easily be wrong. Seeing as thogh Shepard has found a way, to defeat reapers before, FACT, and Cerberus has had more probljms with the reapers than success, FACT, I am comfortable in my decision. Moving on, enjoy your fruit.

The contradiuctions are yours and yours alone. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together cna see that you have been changing argument and your tune during this whole thread. this pitifuly attmpt to now blame me is laughable...as is your inabiltiy ot read and parse sentances.
First of all, I never  said the things you claim I did. Your'e mis-interpreting and reding into it....on purpose I wager.

Where are the so-called contradiction?
Sheps ego? Waht does bringing Shep back have to do with that? Sheppard is a capable commander and an icon. He did his job and defeated Sovereign and the Collectors. His ego in this case is not part of the equation, since it's only a problem if the palyer selects it to be.

Your assumptions are ludicorous and based on wisfull thinking, not reason. Hence why I can't agree with you.

Sheppard found a way to defeat soveregin..by pure luck as it so happens. The Prothean Conduit, their modification of hte Keepers - wihout those humanity and Sheppard would have been dead. Shep was lucky enough to stumble upon it. The destruction of Sovereign was not planned. It was again luck on Shpes side - he didn't know what effect destroying Saren-husk would have.
So how is that a plan? How is that a guarantee that Shepe will find another way? Based on what?

Cerberus has more faliure than sucess? Again, based onwhat? The few experiemnts you know? whihc, despite damage to labs and death of personall are technicly a sucess? What about al lthe experiments you DON'T know about?
How do you determine ratio of sucess without it?

You don't have facts. You have assumptions that are shaky at best. Again, you got nothing. If you had a single credible argument or piece of evidence, I'd agree wiht you. Alas, you presented nothing.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 juillet 2011 - 05:07 .

[frostajulie]

My paragons destroyed the base but every fiber of my being screamed at me to save the base and figure out a way to use it to destroy the reapers. Shep says at the end of ME1 she's looking for a way to stop the reapers, here it is practically handed to her on a silver platter and she blows it up? This is the edge she was looking for. No way I would destroy that base. I have a renegade that saved it and a shep as me that saved it but all my paragons and paragades destroy it.

But that is not what I would do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't get why people even define their "Sheppards" as Paragon/Renegade.
That is sorta an extremist view and way to play, going max on one or the other.

I'm pretty much a player of paladin-like characters (Lawful-smart, not lawful-stupid), so my Shep is mostly paragon.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

alperez wrote...
You say morality takes second place to survival and for some thats surely true, for others its not. If you lose your morality then what's the point of surviving?

If you'd care to explain to me how I'd exactly loose my morality?

I don't actually know what your morality is, but if your willing to do whatever it takes irresepective of the cost to anyone else then you would imo be in danger of being immoral.

Handing over a base to an organisation whose goals and ideals are to place one race in a dominant postion over other races, an organisation which has been shown to do whatever they believe is right irrespective of the dangers or cost to others in order to acheive their goals would imo be immoral.

Now of course if you agree with their goals and you believe that you must do whatever it takes to succeed irrespective of the cost to others then of course it wouldn't be against your morality.

[Inverness Moon]

Lotion Soronnar, you've been saying prettymuch exactly what I would have said (though less eloquently it seems like ). I completely agree with you.

frostajulie wrote...

My paragons destroyed the base but every fiber of my being screamed at me to save the base and figure out a way to use it to destroy the reapers. Shep says at the end of ME1 she's looking for a way to stop the reapers, here it is practically handed to her on a silver platter and she blows it up? This is the edge she was looking for. No way I would destroy that base. I have a renegade that saved it and a shep as me that saved it but all my paragons and paragades destroy it.

But that is not what I would do.

And that is basically the whole point. The people who believe in the reapers are trying to find a way to stop them. Blowing the base up is entirely counterproductive. I'm glad you realized that.

alperez wrote...

I don't actually know what your morality is, but if your willing to do whatever it takes irresepective of the cost to anyone else then you would imo be in danger of being immoral.

Handing over a base to an organisation whose goals and ideals are to place one race in a dominant postion over other races, an organisation which has been shown to do whatever they believe is right irrespective of the dangers or cost to others in order to acheive their goals would imo be immoral.

Now of course if you agree with their goals and you believe that you must do whatever it takes to succeed irrespective of the cost to others then of course it wouldn't be against your morality.

If your morals prevent you from doing what it takes to save the galaxy then your morals are wrong.

If saving the base and giving to Cerberus is the only option available to possibly increase our chances of defeating the reapers (chances that are near zero at this point in time), and you don't do it because it offends your morals, then you're a disgustingly selfish person.

As I mentioned previously, paragons are often quite selfish because they place their morals or their "soul" above other people's lives.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 26 juillet 2011 - 07:54 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

This thread is stupid and pointless.

NERDRAGE:I sabed teh base cuz we needs tek
CounterNERDRAGE:I disagree.

Make your own choice for your own reasons and don't try and persuade someone else that they are wrong for picking THE ONLY OTHER OPTION.Neither option is wrong,one is idealistic,the other is optimistic,both are blind faith.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

alperez wrote...
You say morality takes second place to survival and for some thats surely true, for others its not. If you lose your morality then what's the point of surviving?

If you'd care to explain to me how I'd exactly loose my morality?

I don't actually know what your morality is, but if your willing to do whatever it takes irresepective of the cost to anyone else then you would imo be in danger of being immoral.

Handing over a base to an organisation whose goals and ideals are to place one race in a dominant postion over other races, an organisation which has been shown to do whatever they believe is right irrespective of the dangers or cost to others in order to acheive their goals would imo be immoral.

Now of course if you agree with their goals and you believe that you must do whatever it takes to succeed irrespective of the cost to others then of course it wouldn't be against your morality.

Whatever it takes to survive? That is not evil.
TIM isnt' doing the experiments for s*** and giggles - he knows the Reaprs are coming and we are not ready.

Irrespective to the cost? Not really. I'm well aware of the cost. I'm also even more aware of the COST OF FALIURE to defeat the Reapers. And that cost is infinitely worse than whatever other cost I have to pay.
If repaers aren't defeated, then I won't have to worrry about regret - I'll be too dead.  Along with everyone else.
I'd sell my soul to the devil for the power to stop the Reapers (if they were real f'course). My soul would be a small price to pay for the salvation of the galaxy.
Yes, I'd put puppies and kids in a blender and hit the "puree" bottun if it would stop the reapers. I'd kill myself afterwards, but I'd do it. Because otherwise ALL the kids and puppised would end up in a blender of a different kind.


Wanting for your race to be in a dominant position? That is also not evil. Unless you consider the USA evil for being a dominant force. Do you consider everyone who wants to keep it that way evil? Do you consider people who'd like to see their nations stronger than the USA evil and immoral?
Becasue that's what a dominant force is...

But I guess you interpret that word as some sort of slaver with a whip over the poor, opressed aliens?

[alperez]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Common sense man. Try using it.
The base was used to construct reapers and has a reaper corpse in it. OF COURSE we'll find someonthing usefull.
It's like saying that you can't learn anything about human aatomy by examining a cropse. It's just silly.
[/quote]

I actually misquoted myself, i meant to say cost vs. reward. While there is tech and info in the collector base its the cost of this tech and info that is actually the problem. The potential for things going wrong is as big as the potential for things going right.


[quote]

Nope. The goal is most definately not the same, not the slightest. Cerberus wants a strong humanity- one that is a major player in the galaxy and can resist any possible negative influence from the Council or other races.TIM doesn't want to enslave other races. You might want to look up the term dominance. TI's basicly what the super-powers of hte world are doing.

And he can't do it even if he wanted to AND had reaper tech. Cerberus simply doesn't have the resources and manpower to enslave the galaxy. What he can do is feed researched repaer tech to the Alliance, to make it the most powerfull faction.

And no. With the reapers, all sentient life in the galaxy would be gone.
Even assuming the worst-case fantasy Cerberus scenario, in which the now-mighy humanity somehow enslaves all other races - life continues and thrives. In time, enslaved races would free themselves again. Life ramians. Hope remains.
[/quote]

Your views on cerberus goals and mine are obviously different, you seem to think all he wants is to place humanity at the same level of everyone else when in his own words he says "human dominance against the reapers and beyond"
if that doesn't suggest what his ultimate goal is then i don't know what does.

As for not having enough resources to do this if that is indeed his goal, the fact is that giving him the base gives him access potentially to those resources.

People fight as much for their freedom as they do for their lives, you really think all the other races in the galaxy would prefer to be enslaved rather than dead?
[/quote]

[quote]

TIM is the enemy of what friends?
Cerberus works for the benefit of humanity. If you talk to the Cerberus personall abord hte SR-2, you'll find that they don't hate aliens. Other races are not the enemy of Cerberus.
So who exactly is this "friend" you're reffering to?
[/quote]

Like i said TIM's goal is human dominance, for humans to be dominant everyone else would need to be subservient, irrespective of seperate single perspectives of particular cereberus personell,TIM's own words confirm this.

So someone who wants to put humanity above every other species in the galaxy is a friend to these species in your opinion?

[alperez]

Inverness Moon wrote...


If your morals prevent you from doing what it takes to save the galaxy then your morals are wrong.

If saving the base and giving to Cerberus is the only option available to possibly increase our chances of defeating the reapers (chances that are near zero at this point in time), and you don't do it because it offends your morals, then you're a disgustingly selfish person.

As I mentioned previously, paragons are often quite selfish because they place their morals or their "soul" above other people's lives.

Firstly you say if saving the base and giving it to cerberus is the only option available, it isn't.

Its the option you take, you believe the base has its intrinsic value and this value outweighs whatever potential dangers it also possesses, you then hand the base over to an organisation that has shown a willingness to do whatever it takes to acheive its goal irrespective of the cost of those goals.

Your willing to allow something you believe is so important to winning or losing be in the hands of people who you believe will only then use the potential of that base for the same goal that you originally have.

If your right you get whatever benefit you get, the cost doesen't matter and cerberus only use the base and whatever the gain from it to stop the reapers and nothing else.

If your wrong, you either get no real advantage from the tech, or an advantage and then cerberus use that advantage for their own goals once the reapers have been dealt with.

Your arming someone who may use those arms against you later on, hasn't history shown this to be a bad thing?

If the only way to defeat the reapers was the base and you had no choice other than to use it irrespective of the cost then this becomes a completely different debate, But thats not what happens, instead people think the base is more important than it may be so completely negate the negatives in order to support that view.

Morality forces you to decide just how far your willing to go in order to acheive what it is your willing to acheive, if you completely ignore any negative consequences from the actions your willing to take then i believe that makes you immoral.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...
Firstly you say if saving the base and giving it to cerberus is the only option available, it isn't.

Its the option you take, you believe the base has its intrinsic value and this value outweighs whatever potential dangers it also possesses, you then hand the base over to an organisation that has shown a willingness to do whatever it takes to acheive its goal irrespective of the cost of those goals.

Your willing to allow something you believe is so important to winning or losing be in the hands of people who you believe will only then use the potential of that base for the same goal that you originally have.

If your right you get whatever benefit you get, the cost doesen't matter and cerberus only use the base and whatever the gain from it to stop the reapers and nothing else.

If your wrong, you either get no real advantage from the tech, or an advantage and then cerberus use that advantage for their own goals once the reapers have been dealt with.

Your arming someone who may use those arms against you later on, hasn't history shown this to be a bad thing?

If the only way to defeat the reapers was the base and you had no choice other than to use it irrespective of the cost then this becomes a completely different debate, But thats not what happens, instead people think the base is more important than it may be so completely negate the negatives in order to support that view.

May.
Better to live and see that future then to not live at all. Hast history shown that extinction is a even worse thing?

And defeating the repars? How do you know the bease isn't the only way? Or at least the best way?
I aks for you to show me alternatives, besides wishfull thinking.
I migth be gambling by giving the base to Cerberus, but your gamble, to jsut hope a miracle solution will pop up - is far, far worse.

The base may end up being less important. From a gameplay perspective, that will most probably be so, since Bio doesn't have the halls to punish the players for truly bad decisions.
But looking at this realistisly, it would be a horrible move, since logic dictates that a LOT of usefull info and tech should be inside that base.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Common sense man. Try using it.
The base was used to construct reapers and has a reaper corpse in it. OF COURSE we'll find someonthing usefull.
It's like saying that you can't learn anything about human aatomy by examining a cropse. It's just silly.

I actually misquoted myself, i meant to say cost vs. reward. While there is tech and info in the collector base its the cost of this tech and info that is actually the problem. The potential for things going wrong is as big as the potential for things going right.

But the potential benefits far outstrip potential negatives.

Your views on cerberus goals and mine are obviously different, you seem to think all he wants is to place humanity at the same level of everyone else when in his own words he says "human dominance against the reapers and beyond"
if that doesn't suggest what his ultimate goal is then i don't know what does.

Look up dominance in the dictionary.
Then come back and try to explain to me why that is evil...

As for not having enough resources to do this if that is indeed his goal, the fact is that giving him the base gives him access potentially to those resources.

Nope. Cerberus simply cannot match the other races, even with the base. It simply has too little manpower and no navy to speak of. Not to mention that Cerberus doesn't have the time necessary to build a warship armada.

xyou have some fantasy of Cerberus taking over the universe. You might want to specify exactly how do you think they will do it. How do you think Cerberus will defeat the combined navies of other races?

Why do you think Cerberus would even want war? Cerberus assasinated the Pope to avoid war with Turians!

Like i said TIM's goal is human dominance, for humans to be dominant everyone else would need to be subservient, irrespective of seperate single perspectives of particular cereberus personell,TIM's own words confirm this.

So someone who wants to put humanity above every other species in the galaxy is a friend to these species in your opinion?

In that case, go to war with 99% of the galaxy. And humantiy.
Cause every nation, every race wants to be on top. Because being on top is the ONLY way to ensure you won't be pushed around by those that are on top.

Being dominant is just that. The US is a dominant force. A major power. Show me how big a slaves they made the other nations on Earth. Also show me a nation that DOESN'T want to take their place at hte top.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...




May.
Better to live and see that future then to not live at all. Hast history shown that extinction is a even worse thing?

And defeating the repars? How do you know the bease isn't the only way? Or at least the best way?
I aks for you to show me alternatives, besides wishfull thinking.
I migth be gambling by giving the base to Cerberus, but your gamble, to jsut hope a miracle solution will pop up - is far, far worse.

The base may end up being less important. From a gameplay perspective, that will most probably be so, since Bio doesn't have the halls to punish the players for truly bad decisions.
But looking at this realistisly, it would be a horrible move, since logic dictates that a LOT of usefull info and tech should be inside that base.

The fact that it may is what you have to take into account when making your choice, thats basically the point i'm trying to make.

You can take into account that even if it does turn out badly that its a risk worth taking or that its a risk too far, basically depending on your viewpoint on Cerberus and your view on whether or not the risk is dwarfed by the potential reward is what informs your choice, in my case i feel the potential reward is dwarfed by the risk, in your case you don't, hence difference of opinions based on different viewpoints.

I don't know the base isn't the key to destroying the reapers, i don't know when i make the choice i make if i am in fact dooming the galaxy completely, what i do know is that imo handing the base over to an organisation i distrust is a bad and potentially disastrous choice so instead i make the only other choice available to me.

If there had been another option give the base to the council or alliance then i'm faced with an alternative that i may be able to live with which creates a completely different scenario for me, but i didn't have that option, instead it was cerberus or destroy so i choose to destroy.

An extreme example is this, if you were being attacked would you give a loaded gun to a psycho and hope that psycho only used the gun on the people attacking you?

I'm not saying TIM is a psycho rather just trying to use an analogy.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But the potential benefits far outstrip potential negatives.

In your opinion yes they do, in mine they don't.

Look up dominance in the dictionary.
Then come back and try to explain to me why that is evil...

You think TIM's goal is what, just put humans in a dominant position for the benefit of every other species?

Once he gains dominance then what, the only choices he makes are beneficial to the other species or will he use that dominance at the expense of other species, thats where the key lies imo.

Nope. Cerberus simply cannot match the other races, even with the base. It simply has too little manpower and no navy to speak of. Not to mention that Cerberus doesn't have the time necessary to build a warship armada.

xyou have some fantasy of Cerberus taking over the universe. You might want to specify exactly how do you think they will do it. How do you think Cerberus will defeat the combined navies of other races?

Why do you think Cerberus would even want war? Cerberus assasinated the Pope to avoid war with Turians!

Firstly its a post reaper world i'm speaking off, considering how powerful they are it stands to reason that whatever is left afterward would be drastically reduced in its effectiveness.

Secondly, base keepers expect to find tech or info that will help defeat the reapers on the base and in keeping the base they've handed it over to cerberus, who would then be in control of whatever info and tech is found.

Once the war is over whats to stop Cerberus then using the tech and info they found that stopped the reapers on the remnants of the galaxy and because of the superior nature of whatever tech or info they found and the fact that the remaining forces are weaker then being able to completely takeover.

As for whether or not they want a war or what they did in regards to the example you give, well at that stage they couldn't beat the turians, post reapers with the best tech available maybe they could.

In that case, go to war with 99% of the galaxy. And humantiy.
Cause every nation, every race wants to be on top. Because being on top is the ONLY way to ensure you won't be pushed around by those that are on top.

Being dominant is just that. The US is a dominant force. A major power. Show me how big a slaves they made the other nations on Earth. Also show me a nation that DOESN'T want to take their place at hte top.

The other species in the galaxy mainly fall under council oversight, when one trys to be too strong the council step in, there is an oversight and they have to answer to that oversight.

Cerberus don't, they follow their own agenda without regard to either humanity or the councils feeling on the goals they have or the methods used to acheive those goals,  they do as they wish and screw anyone who trys to get in their way.

Without getting dragged into a debate about the US and how it uses its dominant position what i'll say is this.

The US admin is democratically elected by the people the goals and methods they us are accepted or rejected by the people every election so the analogy your using is kinda false.

More apt would be the CIA being in a position with no oversight doing whatever they wish for whatever reasons they decide, something that even the US wouldn't accept.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...
The fact that it may is what you have to take into account when making your choice, thats basically the point i'm trying to make.

You can take into account that even if it does turn out badly that its a risk worth taking or that its a risk too far, basically depending on your viewpoint on Cerberus and your view on whether or not the risk is dwarfed by the potential reward is what informs your choice, in my case i feel the potential reward is dwarfed by the risk, in your case you don't, hence difference of opinions based on different viewpoints.

I am taking the "may" into account.

And the risk and reward can be gauged. There's really not much ambiguity about it.
The risk is pitifuly compared to the reward. Period. Tehgre is no other logical conclusion. None.

Reward - possibly save the galaxy
Risk - Cerberus against you. Big deal. they've been agaisnt Shep in ME1 and it got them nowhere.

I don't know the base isn't the key to destroying the reapers, i don't know when i make the choice i make if i am in fact dooming the galaxy completely, what i do know is that imo handing the base over to an organisation i distrust is a bad and potentially disastrous choice so instead i make the only other choice available to me.

If there had been another option give the base to the council or alliance then i'm faced with an alternative that i may be able to live with which creates a completely different scenario for me, but i didn't have that option, instead it was cerberus or destroy so i choose to destroy.

Which is a bad choice. As you don't really have a sensible alternative.

Question: What is stoping you for telling the Alliance about the base AFTER giving it to Cerberus? nothing..
What other weapon you have againt the reapers? What other ace up the sleeve? None.


So yes, you are risking the entire galaxy to appease your morals and prejudices. There is nothing smart OR moral about the choice to destroy the base. It's an entirely self-serving, self-centered choice based on nothing but distrust for Cerberus - Sheps' ego being the guiding point.

So the entire Galaxy is doomed because Shep doesn't trust someone...because YOU specificly trusting TIM is hte most important factor of all. What other people think is irrelvant. What is necessary is irrelevant.

An extreme example is this, if you were being attacked would you give a loaded gun to a psycho and hope that psycho only used the gun on the people attacking you?

I'm not saying TIM is a psycho rather just trying to use an analogy.

It's a rather flawed analogy.

It's more like trying to fight off a detachment of armored knights with just a club. There's one guy who wants to research swoirds and shield, but you dont' trust him, so you torch his bluprints for them.
This is also a somewhat flowed analgy, which is why I tend to avoid analogies altogether.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But the potential benefits far outstrip potential negatives.

In your opinion yes they do, in mine they don't.

It's a matter of facts, not oppinions.

Look up dominance in the dictionary.
Then come back and try to explain to me why that is evil...

You think TIM's goal is what, just put humans in a dominant position for the benefit of every other species?

Once he gains dominance then what, the only choices he makes are beneficial to the other species or will he use that dominance at the expense of other species, thats where the key lies imo.

And Asari are in the dominant position forh te benefit of every other species? Dont' be daft. Someone will ALWAYS be in the dominant position. It might as well be humans. After all, WHY NOT?
Answer me that. Why is the galaxy with humans in dominant position worse than a galaxy with Turian, or Salari, or Asari in a dominant position?

Nope. Cerberus simply cannot match the other races, even with the base. It simply has too little manpower and no navy to speak of. Not to mention that Cerberus doesn't have the time necessary to build a warship armada.

xyou have some fantasy of Cerberus taking over the universe. You might want to specify exactly how do you think they will do it. How do you think Cerberus will defeat the combined navies of other races?

Why do you think Cerberus would even want war? Cerberus assasinated the Pope to avoid war with Turians!

Firstly its a post reaper world i'm speaking off, considering how powerful they are it stands to reason that whatever is left afterward would be drastically reduced in its effectiveness.

Secondly, base keepers expect to find tech or info that will help defeat the reapers on the base and in keeping the base they've handed it over to cerberus, who would then be in control of whatever info and tech is found.

Once the war is over whats to stop Cerberus then using the tech and info they found that stopped the reapers on the remnants of the galaxy and because of the superior nature of whatever tech or info they found and the fact that the remaining forces are weaker then being able to completely takeover.

As for whether or not they want a war or what they did in regards to the example you give, well at that stage they couldn't beat the turians, post reapers with the best tech available maybe they could.

Again, fantasy scenario.
The repaer base can give enhanced tech and info usefu  lagaint the repaers (for example, info to increase the shielding and firepower of allied ships), but really nothing that Cerberus can use to take over the world alone.

Cerberus is simply too small.
It's like saying...Luxemburg will take over the world if you give them alien guns. Just no way.

Cerberus is black ops. They do small-scale stuff. They do research. They feed new tech and info to the Alliance. (to strengthen humanity)
Cerberus alone can do sqat, even with repaer tech.

In that case, go to war with 99% of the galaxy. And humantiy.
Cause every nation, every race wants to be on top. Because being on top is the ONLY way to ensure you won't be pushed around by those that are on top.

Being dominant is just that. The US is a dominant force. A major power. Show me how big a slaves they made the other nations on Earth. Also show me a nation that DOESN'T want to take their place at hte top.

The other species in the galaxy mainly fall under council oversight, when one trys to be too strong the council step in, there is an oversight and they have to answer to that oversight.

Cerberus don't, they follow their own agenda without regard to either humanity or the councils feeling on the goals they have or the methods used to acheive those goals,  they do as they wish and screw anyone who trys to get in their way.

Without getting dragged into a debate about the US and how it uses its dominant position what i'll say is this.

The US admin is democratically elected by the people the goals and methods they us are accepted or rejected by the people every election so the analogy your using is kinda false.

More apt would be the CIA being in a position with no oversight doing whatever they wish for whatever reasons they decide, something that even the US wouldn't accept.

Wrong.
What is the Council other than a dominant force? Well, the council is more Like EU or NATO....and the most powerfull member nations are the most dominant..
Again power = influence.
It's the rule of the universe. Economical, military, political. It all counts.


You don't seem to understand politics or the political landscape of the world, if you do not understand what I'm talking about. And by your reply I gather you dont' understand what I was aiming at.

How the US administration is selected is irrelevant. Do you think someone in a tiny country cares? And yet the US has influence in it. US dominates it.

If humanity were to become a domanant force, it would be by Cerberus feeding it info and tech. Cerbeurs wouldn't be the administration.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 juillet 2011 - 12:29 .

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I am taking the "may" into account.

And the risk and reward can be gauged. There's really not much ambiguity about it.
The risk is pitifuly compared to the reward. Period. Tehgre is no other logical conclusion. None.

Reward - possibly save the galaxy
Risk - Cerberus against you. Big deal. they've been agaisnt Shep in ME1 and it got them nowhere.

See thats the whole problem with the base keeper argument, they see no other viewpoint as valid or right other than their own, basically you say that the risk is nothing (which i disagree with) and the reward is everything (which again i disagree with) but rather than accept that you could be wrong you instead say that the only logical conclussion is yours which proves my point.

Cerberus are willing to do whatever it takes irrespective of the cost in order to acheive their goal you know this when making the choice to hand the base over to them, while the alternative is that there could be something extremely useful on the base that could help you defeat the reapers could not will.

Thats where the choice gets more difficult, do you just give the base to people you don't trust, hope they find something that helps you beat the reapers, hope they give you that something, hope they don't use what they've found to hurt anyone else and hope that whatever risks you took in handing the base over to them are outweighed by the potential you go in keeping it.

As for being worried that Cerberus would come after Shepard, that doesn't even come into the equation, i'm not worried about Shepard when i make the choice, i'm worried about everyone else they may go after.

Which is a bad choice. As you don't really have a sensible alternative.

Question: What is stoping you for telling the Alliance about the base AFTER giving it to Cerberus? nothing..
What other weapon you have againt the reapers? What other ace up the sleeve? None.


So yes, you are risking the entire galaxy to appease your morals and prejudices. There is nothing smart OR moral about the choice to destroy the base. It's an entirely self-serving, self-centered choice based on nothing but distrust for Cerberus - Sheps' ego being the guiding point.

So the entire Galaxy is doomed because Shep doesn't trust someone...because YOU specificly trusting TIM is hte most important factor of all. What other people think is irrelvant. What is necessary is irrelevant.

Again your missing the point, its the fact i have only 2 choices hand it to cerberus or don't, thats it.

You say what other weapon do i have against the reapers and again this shows that you've convinced yourself that the base is a weapon that can be used against the reapers, something you can't be sure of when you make the choice. Sure you can hope it is, you can hope the info or tech on board is but you have to weigh that up against the potential harm Cerberus having the base could do also.

Moral choice, give a potentiall weapon (as you put it) to people who have no qualms about using that weapon in any fashion irregardless of who they may hurt in the process or hand that weapon over to those very same people and hope they won't use it against anyone other than the people you want them to.

As for the whole galaxy being doomed because my Shepard not trusting TIM, again your exposing you own belief that what's on the base is something extremely important or vital to defeating the reapers, something you don't know but only hope when your supposed to be making the choice in the first place.

I'm supposed to hand over a base that could have info or tech that's key to beating the reapers over to a ruthless man who no matter what the cost or how many people get hurt in order to get that tech or info would have no qualms whatsoever in doing whatever it takes, then hope that once he gets his hands on the tech/info he will gladly share it and only use it for the same goal i have, stopping the reapers and you don't think trust should be part of my choice?

It's a rather flawed analogy.

It's more like trying to fight off a detachment of armored knights with just a club. There's one guy who wants to research swoirds and shield, but you dont' trust him, so you torch his bluprints for them.
This is also a somewhat flowed analgy, which is why I tend to avoid analogies altogether.

Which was why i said an extreme example.

Modifié par alperez, 27 juillet 2011 - 01:33 .

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's a matter of facts, not oppinions.

Actually its not, you think the usefulness of what may be on the base is outweighed by any potential harmful results you get by handing over to someone as ruthless as TIM.

But you have no facts that its is, just your opinion that it is.

And Asari are in the dominant position forh te benefit of every other species? Dont' be daft. Someone will ALWAYS be in the dominant position. It might as well be humans. After all, WHY NOT?
Answer me that. Why is the galaxy with humans in dominant position worse than a galaxy with Turian, or Salari, or Asari in a dominant position?

I'm sorry where did i say having any race in a dominant position was a good thing?

Cerberus are not humanity, they are not humanities representives, they are an extremist group with extremist views who answer to no one but themselves, so when they acheive the goal of human dominance who's dominance is it really.

Humanity or Cerberus?

Again, fantasy scenario.
The repaer base can give enhanced tech and info usefu  lagaint the repaers (for example, info to increase the shielding and firepower of allied ships), but really nothing that Cerberus can use to take over the world alone.

Cerberus is simply too small.
It's like saying...Luxemburg will take over the world if you give them alien guns. Just no way.

Cerberus is black ops. They do small-scale stuff. They do research. They feed new tech and info to the Alliance. (to strengthen humanity)
Cerberus alone can do sqat, even with repaer tech.

Its not fantasy scenario its the nightmare one, if one organisation has vastly superior tech then the numbers of that organisation are multiplied inherent to how advanced that tech is over everyone elses.

You use luxembourg as an example, what if luxembourg were the only country in the world to possess nuclear weapons and the ability to deploy those weapons wherever they wish, would they not suddenly be more powerful than countries with vast numerical advantages but conventional weapons?

Wrong.
What is the Council other than a dominant force? Well, the council is more Like EU or NATO....and the most powerfull member nations are the most dominant..
Again power = influence.
It's the rule of the universe. Economical, military, political. It all counts.


You don't seem to understand politics or the political landscape of the world, if you do not understand what I'm talking about. And by your reply I gather you dont' understand what I was aiming at.

How the US administration is selected is irrelevant. Do you think someone in a tiny country cares? And yet the US has influence in it. US dominates it.

If humanity were to become a domanant force, it would be by Cerberus feeding it info and tech. Cerbeurs wouldn't be the administration.

The council though is made up of the equivelent of governmental representatives, representatives that have to answer to their own goverments or equivelents. Any actions taken that fall under council jurisdiction are subject to council law and the members of the council themselves. But because of the makeup of the council each species under its jurisdiction has a voice to air grievances and the council itself decides how these grievances are handled.

Its a collective government where yes the more powerful members have a larger say than the least powerful but still must abide by the decisions that the council makes. No one race has complete dominance over every other race, sure there is economical, military and political disparaties between the races but no one race is in a completely dominant position.

Cerberus act outside of the council and because of that are considered terrorists, they care nothing about council law, goverment law only they're own agenda and goals, which is human dominance (or cerberus).

If you can't see why this is different or why this may not be a good thing, then i can't make you see it.

You seem to be of the opinion that all TIM wants is to feed tech and info to the alliance in order to see human dominance of the galaxy with other people calling the shots, that he doesn't see himself or cerberus as the ones who call the shots.

That all of this time TIM's goal has been completely altruistic?

If you do then so be it, your entitled to your opinion, i am also entitled to disagree.

Modifié par alperez, 27 juillet 2011 - 02:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I am taking the "may" into account.

And the risk and reward can be gauged. There's really not much ambiguity about it.
The risk is pitifuly compared to the reward. Period. Tehgre is no other logical conclusion. None.

Reward - possibly save the galaxy
Risk - Cerberus against you. Big deal. they've been agaisnt Shep in ME1 and it got them nowhere.

See thats the whole problem with the base keeper argument, they see no other viewpoint as valid or right other than their own, basically you say that the risk is nothing (which i disagree with) and the reward is everything (which again i disagree with) but rather than accept that you could be wrong you instead say that the only logical conclussion is yours which proves my point.

Disagree all you want. I happen to be right.
You might as well by saying that fire is made out of water.
I would deny the logic of you claim, and you could again claim that it proves your point.

The risks and rewards can be deduced/calculated. The best/worst case can be logicly deduced. Period.

Cerberus are willing to do whatever it takes irrespective of the cost in order to acheive their goal you know this when making the choice to hand the base over to them, while the alternative is that there could be something extremely useful on the base that could help you defeat the reapers could not will.

Thats where the choice gets more difficult, do you just give the base to people you don't trust, hope they find something that helps you beat the reapers, hope they give you that something, hope they don't use what they've found to hurt anyone else and hope that whatever risks you took in handing the base over to them are outweighed by the potential you go in keeping it.

I cannot parse your first sentance, sorry. It makes no sense to me.. typo?

As I said again - trust is irreleveant, surival is. Trust is not a problem if you're dead. And you will be once the reapers come.

Hope they find something? Tehy will. How much and how usefull it will be (given the short time-frame) is to be seen, but researching highly advanced tech is bound to yield SOMETHING.

Hope they give me that something? They will. It's in their own interest. Survival of humanity is TIM's goal. A stroing humanity is TIM's goal. Hence why he urged the Alliance to co-develop the Normady wiht turians. Hence why he leaks ingo and tech to haumanity. To make it stronger.
Neither of his goals are served if the keep everything just to himself.
I do not have to trust TIM's morals...I trust his goal - as you said yourself, Cerberus will do anything to achoive their goal. And now you're saying that strengthening humanity - what they have been doing all this time - is not something theey would do?

Hope they won't use the tech against hte others. Cerberus won't go to war with other races. That isn't TIM's goal.
Whatever fallout happen....IF any fallout happens - that's something to deal with AFTER the Repaers are defeated.

Which is a bad choice. As you don't really have a sensible alternative.

Question: What is stoping you for telling the Alliance about the base AFTER giving it to Cerberus? nothing..
What other weapon you have againt the reapers? What other ace up the sleeve? None.


So yes, you are risking the entire galaxy to appease your morals and prejudices. There is nothing smart OR moral about the choice to destroy the base. It's an entirely self-serving, self-centered choice based on nothing but distrust for Cerberus - Sheps' ego being the guiding point.

So the entire Galaxy is doomed because Shep doesn't trust someone...because YOU specificly trusting TIM is hte most important factor of all. What other people think is irrelvant. What is necessary is irrelevant.

Again your missing the point, its the fact i have only 2 choices hand it to cerberus or don't, thats it.

You say what other weapon do i have against the reapers and again this shows that you've convinced yourself that the base is a weapon that can be used against the reapers, something you can't be sure of when you make the choice. Sure you can hope it is, you can hope the info or tech on board is but you have to weigh that up against the potential harm Cerberus having the base could do also.

Moral choice, give a potentiall weapon (as you put it) to people who have no qualms about using that weapon in any fashion irregardless of who they may hurt in the process or hand that weapon over to those very same people and hope they won't use it against anyone other than the people you want them to.

As for the whole galaxy being doomed because my Shepard not trusting TIM, again your exposing you own belief that what's on the base is something extremely important or vital to defeating the reapers, something you don't know but only hope when your supposed to be making the choice in the first place.

I'm supposed to hand over a base that could have info or tech that's key to beating the reapers over to a ruthless man who no matter what the cost or how many people get hurt in order to get that tech or info would have no qualms whatsoever in doing whatever it takes, then hope that once he gets his hands on the tech/info he will gladly share it and only use it for the same goal i have, stopping the reapers and you don't think trust should be part of my choice?

No, you are the one missing the point and avoiding to answer the question.

You have no plan to beating  the Reapers. You got no ace up your sleeve. You ADMIT that. And yet you destroy the newely found "ace". That is the very definition of stupid. The price of faliur is extinction.

Explain to me how can anything Cerberus could POSSIBLY do be worse than extinction? Pease, go ahead. I'm listening.


And yes, the base is a potential weapon. Basic common sense woul tell you that much. If just a few pieces of Sovereign yielded EDI and the thanix cannon, just think of what the base + reaper corpse could.
It might bea enhancements to starship, or it might just be tactical information - I really doubt the base would yield a doomsday weapon of doom - but anything taht enhances your fleets or underrstanding of reapers increases your chances of survival dramaticly.


Your priorities are seriously mesed up.