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[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's a matter of facts, not oppinions.

Actually its not, you think the usefulness of what may be on the base is outweighed by any potential harmful results you get by handing over to someone as ruthless as TIM.

But you have no facts that its is, just your opinion that it is.

I have logic on my side, you have garbage.

I asked you several times to explain to me exactly how the harmfull results could be worse than exctinction. You failed to reply. Because you don't you don't have a replay to that.

The fact of the matter is, that even with the worst-possible Cerberus senario, the risk is STILL worth taking a hunderd times over.

And Asari are in the dominant position forh te benefit of every other species? Dont' be daft. Someone will ALWAYS be in the dominant position. It might as well be humans. After all, WHY NOT?
Answer me that. Why is the galaxy with humans in dominant position worse than a galaxy with Turian, or Salari, or Asari in a dominant position?

I'm sorry where did i say having any race in a dominant position was a good thing?

Cerberus are not humanity, they are not humanities representives, they are an extremist group with extremist views who answer to no one but themselves, so when they acheive the goal of human dominance who's dominance is it really.

Humanity or Cerberus?

Pray tell, how do you plan on stoping anyone to be dominant? You can't. SOMEONE will always be dominant.

And to answer that quastion - humanity.
Cerberus is a former Black Ops gorup. It does not lead the Alliance. It feeds it tech and data to make it stronger. Cerbers does not lead humantiy and never will. It does not make political and military decisions.

Again, fantasy scenario.
The repaer base can give enhanced tech and info usefu  lagaint the repaers (for example, info to increase the shielding and firepower of allied ships), but really nothing that Cerberus can use to take over the world alone.

Cerberus is simply too small.
It's like saying...Luxemburg will take over the world if you give them alien guns. Just no way.

Cerberus is black ops. They do small-scale stuff. They do research. They feed new tech and info to the Alliance. (to strengthen humanity)
Cerberus alone can do sqat, even with repaer tech.

Its not fantasy scenario its the nightmare one, if one organisation has vastly superior tech then the numbers of that organisation are multiplied inherent to how advanced that tech is over everyone elses.

You use luxembourg as an example, what if luxembourg were the only country in the world to possess nuclear weapons and the ability to deploy those weapons wherever they wish, would they not suddenly be more powerful than countries with vast numerical advantages but conventional weapons?

Technology is a multiplayer only to a point.
The nuke analogyisn't correct, since nothing in the base can yield that huge a leap in such a short time-frame. Even if it were, the other nations combined could STILL take out Luxemburg. Nukes would be useless to it if hte fight erupts on it's own soil, and use of such weapons prevents holding the area. Not to mention that Luxemburg doesn't have hte manpower to keep the rest of hte world - heck not even a single country - occupied and under control.
Luxemburgs rain of terror would end in a record time frame.

The council though is made up of the equivelent of governmental representatives, representatives that have to answer to their own goverments or equivelents. Any actions taken that fall under council jurisdiction are subject to council law and the members of the council themselves. But because of the makeup of the council each species under its jurisdiction has a voice to air grievances and the council itself decides how these grievances are handled.

Its a collective government where yes the more powerful members have a larger say than the least powerful but still must abide by the decisions that the council makes. No one race has complete dominance over every other race, sure there is economical, military and political disparaties between the races but no one race is in a completely dominant position.

Cerberus act outside of the council and because of that are considered terrorists, they care nothing about council law, goverment law only they're own agenda and goals, which is human dominance (or cerberus).

If you can't see why this is different or why this may not be a good thing, then i can't make you see it.

You seem to be of the opinion that all TIM wants is to feed tech and info to the alliance in order to see human dominance of the galaxy with other people calling the shots, that he doesn't see himself or cerberus as the ones who call the shots.

That all of this time TIM's goal has been completely altruistic?

If you do then so be it, your entitled to your opinion, i am also entitled to disagree.

Thank you for agreeing here. Dominance exists. Just like EU, it goes deeper that it might appear at first. Under-the-table deals and threats are a constant. Council or no.
What, you don't think smaller nations are not bullied into signing something by the larger ones, even in the EU?
Yes, dominance. Not total-out-in-the-open dominance, but dominance none the less.

You view of the ME universe and Cerberus is so narrow and laughable. Cerberus calling the shots? Please, explain to me how that should happen? Altouhg it's irrelevant to the point of the thread, but these fantasies amuse me.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:05 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Hey lotion where did you buy your advanced copy of ME3?

[Someone With Mass]

I'm basing my decision to destroy the base on TIM's funny habit of betraying people alone.

Enemy technology be damned. I can find something similar somewhere else without having to give it up to Clownrush Cerberus.

Not to mention that the galactic core is riddled with ancient warships. Can salvage some tech there.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm basing my decision to destroy the base on TIM's funny habit of betraying people alone.

Enemy technology be damned. I can find something similar somewhere else without having to give it up to Clownrush Cerberus.

Not to mention that the galactic core is riddled with ancient warships. Can salvage some tech there.

This is a sound decision,using your own experience and logic and forming your own opinion,the problem is lotion seems to think his opinion is fact.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm basing my decision to destroy the base on TIM's funny habit of betraying people alone.

Enemy technology be damned. I can find something similar somewhere else without having to give it up to Clownrush Cerberus.

Not to mention that the galactic core is riddled with ancient warships. Can salvage some tech there.

Betray? When did TIM betray you?

Form start to finsih, he remaind consistent in fighting the Reapers - he ressurected Spehhard, gave him a ship, assmebled a crew for him, gave him intel. He did lie to Shep once - but that was a calculated risk to get the IFF - a risk that payed off b.t.w.


You can find something similar? You base that one what? Where will you find it?
All those ship wrecks have been DESTROYED...meaning they were not the match for the Collectors or he black hole. Any technology gained from them is less than what you'd get from the base. Heck, the Normandy is most surely more advanced than any of those wrecks.

So again..no backup plan, no better alternative...

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm basing my decision to destroy the base on TIM's funny habit of betraying people alone.

Enemy technology be damned. I can find something similar somewhere else without having to give it up to Clownrush Cerberus.

Not to mention that the galactic core is riddled with ancient warships. Can salvage some tech there.

Betray? When did TIM betray you?

Form start to finsih, he remaind consistent in fighting the Reapers - he ressurected Spehhard, gave him a ship, assmebled a crew for him, gave him intel. He did lie to Shep once - but that was a calculated risk to get the IFF - a risk that payed off b.t.w.


You can find something similar? You base that one what? Where will you find it?
All those ship wrecks have been DESTROYED...meaning they were not the match for the Collectors or he black hole. Any technology gained from them is less than what you'd get from the base. Heck, the Normandy is most surely more advanced than any of those wrecks.

So again..no backup plan, no better alternative...that I know of because I haven't played ME3 yet.

Fixed.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Betray? When did TIM betray you?

Form start to finsih, he remaind consistent in fighting the Reapers - he ressurected Spehhard, gave him a ship, assmebled a crew for him, gave him intel. He did lie to Shep once - but that was a calculated risk to get the IFF - a risk that payed off b.t.w.


You can find something similar? You base that one what? Where will you find it?
All those ship wrecks have been DESTROYED...meaning they were not the match for the Collectors or he black hole. Any technology gained from them is less than what you'd get from the base. Heck, the Normandy is most surely more advanced than any of those wrecks.

So again..no backup plan, no better alternative...

Horizon. He used the colonists as bait just confirm a hunch he had. The Collector ship. He made the false turian distress call.

And most of the ships in the core were destroyed because of the common occurring drift of several thousand kilometers that happens when you're going through a relay (read: Why the Normandy needs a Reaper IFF to go through the Omega 4 Relay). That doesn't say anything about their technological level.

And if you can assume that there's nothing good among those wrecks, then I can just as easy assume that there's no good technology in the Collector base. And even if there was, I certainly wouldn't give it to some organization that's built up on torture and brutal experiments.

[ODST 5723]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm basing my decision to destroy the base on TIM's funny habit of betraying people alone.

Enemy technology be damned. I can find something similar somewhere else without having to give it up to Clownrush Cerberus.

Not to mention that the galactic core is riddled with ancient warships. Can salvage some tech there.

Betray? When did TIM betray you?

Form start to finsih, he remaind consistent in fighting the Reapers - he ressurected Spehhard, gave him a ship, assmebled a crew for him, gave him intel. He did lie to Shep once - but that was a calculated risk to get the IFF - a risk that payed off b.t.w.


You can find something similar? You base that one what? Where will you find it?
All those ship wrecks have been DESTROYED...meaning they were not the match for the Collectors or he black hole. Any technology gained from them is less than what you'd get from the base. Heck, the Normandy is most surely more advanced than any of those wrecks.

So again..no backup plan, no better alternative...

TIM betrayed me several times, by using me or my friends as bait to lure out the Collectors.  By sending me into situations w/out giving me needed intel in why I could be killed.  By witholding information about a Reaper from me until it was convenient.  By sending me on a mission to stop the Collectors when his real goal appeared to have been capturing their technology.

From start to finish, he made sure to pretend to give me good intel and lead me into ambush scenarios.  To hide his real agenda for a mission.

And he didn't assemble a team for me.  I gathered my own team, and gained thier loyalty on my own.  All he did was give me some intel on who the best specialists were.  I did all the dirty work.

As for the ships in the area, there's no evidence whatsoever that there's nothing useful there.  Those ships could date back to previous extinction cycles and contain tech that's either further long on the curve than I already have or provide an alternate path that could spark innovation and ways to escape the curve entirely,  While i'd expect that the Collectors and Reapers stripped most of the useful tech from them already, that doesn't mean that they did,

I don't see how you can be so confident that there's nothing of value in the ships but so much value in the base when you've got little to no evidence to go on.  That debris field could be a treasure trove of lost ancient technology.  It could also be a waste of time.

With the ease in which the Collectors and Reapers were able to plant viruses into the Normandy, I don't even know that I'd want to risk using it for fear of my own tech being turned against me or the base being ceded to me as a trap to lure me into a false sene of hope and security.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

TIM does everything short of pulling a gun on you himself to try and kill you.

[jedierick]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Betray? When did TIM betray you?

Form start to finsih, he remaind consistent in fighting the Reapers - he ressurected Spehhard, gave him a ship, assmebled a crew for him, gave him intel. He did lie to Shep once - but that was a calculated risk to get the IFF - a risk that payed off b.t.w.

Saren was consistant in his support of the council and carrying out their orders, right up until he BETRAYED them and tried to help the reapers take over the universe. Had Shepard not been lucky enough and defeated him, the reapers woudl already be here. You saying that TIM, based on the type of person he is doesnt have it in him to betray everyone? And if he did betray everyone, what effect that would have?  You dont know, you have assumptions, as usual. 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

opinion=/=fact

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Disagree all you want. I happen to be right.
You might as well by saying that fire is made out of water.
I would deny the logic of you claim, and you could again claim that it proves your point.

The risks and rewards can be deduced/calculated. The best/worst case can be logicly deduced. Period.

Once again not only showing your own biased view but trying to make it sound like there can be no logically view to disagree with your own biased logic.

I cannot parse your first sentance, sorry. It makes no sense to me.. typo?

As I said again - trust is irreleveant, surival is. Trust is not a problem if you're dead. And you will be once the reapers come.

Hope they find something? Tehy will. How much and how usefull it will be (given the short time-frame) is to be seen, but researching highly advanced tech is bound to yield SOMETHING.

Hope they give me that something? They will. It's in their own interest. Survival of humanity is TIM's goal. A stroing humanity is TIM's goal. Hence why he urged the Alliance to co-develop the Normady wiht turians. Hence why he leaks ingo and tech to haumanity. To make it stronger.
Neither of his goals are served if the keep everything just to himself.
I do not have to trust TIM's morals...I trust his goal - as you said yourself, Cerberus will do anything to achoive their goal. And now you're saying that strengthening humanity - what they have been doing all this time - is not something theey would do?

Hope they won't use the tech against hte others. Cerberus won't go to war with other races. That isn't TIM's goal.
Whatever fallout happen....IF any fallout happens - that's something to deal with AFTER the Repaers are defeated.

My first sentence was typed badly basically it was supposed to be, you know exactly what kind of an organisation cerberus are and what lengths they will go to, when your deciding to hand them over the base and that too should be a factor in your choice.

Your understanding of what cerberus will do and what they won't do, is the greatest piece of foresight since nostradamus, you have no idea that they will actually do everything you say they will, only your opinion that they might.

You think trust is such an irrelevant concept in the choice you make regarding the base and yet your trusting that Cerberus will only do the things you want them to, once they have control of the base, its a leap of faith and its not one i'm willing to make.

As for whether or not TIM would go to war with other races once he's got a superior technological advantage, the fact that you think you shouldn't be concerned for what may happen after the reapers are defeated or not, is short sighted at best and foolhardy at worst.

No, you are the one missing the point and avoiding to answer the question.

You have no plan to beating  the Reapers. You got no ace up your sleeve. You ADMIT that. And yet you destroy the newely found "ace". That is the very definition of stupid. The price of faliur is extinction.

Explain to me how can anything Cerberus could POSSIBLY do be worse than extinction? Pease, go ahead. I'm listening.


And yes, the base is a potential weapon. Basic common sense woul tell you that much. If just a few pieces of Sovereign yielded EDI and the thanix cannon, just think of what the base + reaper corpse could.
It might bea enhancements to starship, or it might just be tactical information - I really doubt the base would yield a doomsday weapon of doom - but anything taht enhances your fleets or underrstanding of reapers increases your chances of survival dramaticly.


Your priorities are seriously mesed up.

Once again your premise is based on an assumption that the base is somehow in your own words an "ace up your sleeve" something you cannot know and can only speculate and hope for.

You've convinced yourself that keeping the base is the only way to defeat the reapers therefore destroying it means you cannot which is not something you know either way when you make the choice.

So you then have to weigh up potential positives against potential negatives, this is where Cerberus and TIM come into the equation big time in my choice. While there have been technolgical advances made from studying and incorporating reaper tech, there have also been some disastrous consequences from studying that same tech.

Cerberus have a shoddy track record in their handling of both experiments and reaper tech, they have shown a willingness to use whatever means they have to in order to acheive the results they desire. For example say the only real benefit of the collector base was to be able to either indoctrinate or create a different version of the human reaper (using not humans but some other races).

Would Cerberus use that indoctrination or create that reaper if they felt that was the only way to win?

Is that a price your willing to pay?

For me the answer is a resounding no and considering my options are destroy the base or hand it over to Cerberus i then must take the only option available to me, destroy it.

You ask what could Cerberus do worse than extinction, subjugation is just as bad imo and that is something i have to concern myself with when making my choice.

There is no point in defeating the reapers only to then find in the process you've created just as big a monster and while with your crystal ball and newly found prediction skills you may think this isn't something Cerberus will turn into, my experiences with them have shown me that they may already be there.

Modifié par alperez, 27 juillet 2011 - 07:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So again..no backup plan, no better alternative...that I know of because I haven't played ME3 yet.

Fixed.

Broken. What happens in Me3 is irrelevant to this discussion, since the decision is amde in ME2, with only information avilable to Sheppard.

I ask you  - did Sheppard have any backup plan, any anti-reaper weapon or strategy when the "destroy the bese" moment came?
Yes or no?

[Someone With Mass]

If it has nothing to do with ME3, then it's really on the wrong board.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Betray? When did TIM betray you?

Horizon. He used the colonists as bait just confirm a hunch he had. The Collector ship. He made the false turian distress call.

And most of the ships in the core were destroyed because of the common occurring drift of several thousand kilometers that happens when you're going through a relay (read: Why the Normandy needs a Reaper IFF to go through the Omega 4 Relay). That doesn't say anything about their technological level.

And if you can assume that there's nothing good among those wrecks, then I can just as easy assume that there's no good technology in the Collector base. And even if there was, I certainly wouldn't give it to some organization that's built up on torture and brutal experiments.

Horzon? He didn't betray you. OR anyone else for that matter. The collectors would stike, one way or another.
By leaking info on the colony, he increased chances they would strike ther, at a known location, thus giving you the opportunity to stop them. Again, action aimed at stoppign hte collectors, not aiding them.

The collector ship? As I said again - calculated risk. He didn't betray you to the Reapers or Collectors, his goal was to stop them all the time.

And wrecks - they were destroyed. Normandy was not. That tells you enough. Those ships weren't powerfull enough.
And it's a safe bet you wont' find better tech in them then in the reaper base - because reapers exterminated all races before, including those who owned those wrecks, hence reapers are technologicly superior to them.

So no, you don't have a better alternative.

And your ego again blinds you to the needs of hte galaxy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ODST 5723 wrote...
TIM betrayed me several times, by using me or my friends as bait to lure out the Collectors.  By sending me into situations w/out giving me needed intel in why I could be killed.  By witholding information about a Reaper from me until it was convenient.  By sending me on a mission to stop the Collectors when his real goal appeared to have been capturing their technology.

From start to finish, he made sure to pretend to give me good intel and lead me into ambush scenarios.  To hide his real agenda for a mission.

Bollocks.
Everything TIM did was a calculated risk. His goal was to stop the collectors.
The base was revealed later. The connection of the Reapers with the Collectors was also revelaed later.

How could it have been his plan from the start?

And he didn't assemble a team for me.  I gathered my own team, and gained thier loyalty on my own.  All he did was give me some intel on who the best specialists were.  I did all the dirty work.

Playing counselor is dirty work? Without TIM you wouldn't even HAVE a team. If you think ti's taht easy to locate suitable personell...lol
He gave you everything you needed on a silver platter.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

Saren was consistant in his support of the council and carrying out their orders, right up until he BETRAYED them and tried to help the reapers take over the universe.

So is Sheppard. and Anderson..and Hackett.

Why don't we go kiil everyone?

Had Shepard not been lucky enough and defeated him, the reapers woudl already be here. You saying that TIM, based on the type of person he is doesnt have it in him to betray everyone? And if he did betray everyone, what effect that would have?  You dont know, you have assumptions, as usual.

Who is this "everyone"?
And whom can you trust? Trust is a fickle thing.
Teh survival of hte entire GALAXY is at stake. And you base your decisions on the egoistical need for other people to appease you and your moral sensibilties.

No, I don't think he's betray humanity. Even if he did, the situation can't get much worse, while it could get a lot better. I've yet to see anyone debunk that or offer any reasonable counter-argument.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have logic on my side, you have garbage.

I asked you several times to explain to me exactly how the harmfull results could be worse than exctinction. You failed to reply. Because you don't you don't have a replay to that.

The fact of the matter is, that even with the worst-possible Cerberus senario, the risk is STILL worth taking a hunderd times over.

Fair enough, subjugation is imo as bad as extinction, people will fight not only for their lives but for their freedom and some people would rather die than give up that freedom. To me there is no point in beating the reapers if in the methods i've used to beat them then dooms the galaxy to an equal or worse faith.

You believe that the worst possible cerberus sceanrio is still a risk worth taking whearas i don't, but thats because in your own logic you've convinced yourself that the only way to win, is to take whatever risks you can take even if those risks end up biting you in the ass.

Pray tell, how do you plan on stoping anyone to be dominant? You can't. SOMEONE will always be dominant.

And to answer that quastion - humanity.
Cerberus is a former Black Ops gorup. It does not lead the Alliance. It feeds it tech and data to make it stronger. Cerbers does not lead humantiy and never will. It does not make political and military decisions.

While i may not be able to stop one species domination over everyone elses, that doesn't mean i have to help it either and if in not helping i acheive a brief respite, then i have done everything i can to stop it.

What cerberus is has yet to be completely defined, what we have is what they were, not what they actually are. You say cerberus doesn't lead humanity and it never will, then why do everything they do other than to increase their power and influence?

Why do they take steps to stop or kill anyone who's agenda is different than their own and use every means in their power to influence events into the outcome they desire?

You say they don't make political and military decisions and yet that's not even true in your own posts or did they not lobby,cajole or browbeat the alliance into creating the Normandy.

Have they not in your own words killed a pope in order to ensure a war didn't break out.

If those are not examples of an organisation making military or political decisions then i don't know what is.

Cerberus have an agenda, they want to force that agenda to the point of that being the only agenda so whether or not they would nominally or not be in leading humanity in reality it really is.

Technology is a multiplayer only to a point.
The nuke analogyisn't correct, since nothing in the base can yield that huge a leap in such a short time-frame. Even if it were, the other nations combined could STILL take out Luxemburg. Nukes would be useless to it if hte fight erupts on it's own soil, and use of such weapons prevents holding the area. Not to mention that Luxemburg doesn't have hte manpower to keep the rest of hte world - heck not even a single country - occupied and under control.
Luxemburgs rain of terror would end in a record time frame.

Your now backtracking on your the base is so important in defeating the reapers, because apparently now the tech and info wouldn't yeild something, that would make such a technological leap possible.

If thats the case then what is the real point of keeping the base, since according to your analysis the only real benefit technolgically would be something that could stop the all powerful reapers, but be useless against all the nations that your so worried the reapers could easily destroy.

As for you idea that the only country in the world with nuclear capibilities and the means to use those capibilities could suddenly be occupied in a record time frame, by countries with vastly inferior weaponry but more manpower, well history has obviously taught you nothing.

Thank you for agreeing here. Dominance exists. Just like EU, it goes deeper that it might appear at first. Under-the-table deals and threats are a constant. Council or no.
What, you don't think smaller nations are not bullied into signing something by the larger ones, even in the EU?
Yes, dominance. Not total-out-in-the-open dominance, but dominance none the less.

You view of the ME universe and Cerberus is so narrow and laughable. Cerberus calling the shots? Please, explain to me how that should happen? Altouhg it's irrelevant to the point of the thread, but these fantasies amuse me.

Dominance does exist but there is also safeguards against complete and total domination, countries and their elected officials all have to follow certain codes of conduct. While not all do and not all or punished because of it, it would be unacceptable for countries to do certain things and if they did them then they would have to face certain consequences.

Cerberus are not a country and don't fall under the jurisdiction of any of the codes of conduct that countries do, they are also not a democracy or elected representatives of any particular goverment.

They do as they wish and have no fear or worry about the consequences of their actions, in that way they are akin to a terrorist organisation, one that uses whatever measures it deems fit, irrespective of anyone else.

While my view on Cerberus may be narrow and laugable in your opinion it is nevertheless my view, i've giving examples above of cerberus calling the shots as you put it and an example of how it could conceivably be that they would be in a position to call all the shots.

Superior weaponry is what dictates your strength, its why the reapers are such a big threat and why if Cerberus got hold of vastly superior weaponry they could be in a position of dominance.

History shows many times armies with superior weaponry destroying those without, even if those armies are at a numerical disadvantage, if an organisation with a particular goal in mind suddenly possesed weapons that were vastly superior to everyone elses, then that organisation's threat would increase in line with how big an advantage they have technologically.

2. examples.

A terrorist group with a nuclear weapon is more of a threat than one with conventional weapons.

A terrorist group possessing nuclear weapons while everyone else does not is an even bigger threat.

Modifié par alperez, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Once again not only showing your own biased view but trying to make it sound like there can be no logically view to disagree with your own biased logic.

aand according to you, a bana is a animal. Yes, I see. Flawless logic.

I cannot parse your first sentance, sorry. It makes no sense to me.. typo?

My first sentence was typed badly basically it was supposed to be, you
know exactly what kind of an organisation cerberus are and what lengths
they will go to, when your deciding to hand them over the base and that
too should be a factor in your choice.

Eh? why would you deliberatly write down sentances so people can't read them? Grammar. Punctuation. You know...Lord knows typos happen to me too, but at least my sentances can be read and understood.

Your understanding of what cerberus will do and what they won't do, is the greatest piece of foresight since nostradamus, you have no idea that they will actually do everything you say they will, only your opinion that they might.

CAN. Not will. Cerberus cna't do anything immaginable. They are limited by their size, funding and time.
Hence, why what they COULD possibly do (for better or worse) is what's important.

You think trust is such an irrelevant concept in the choice you make regarding the base and yet your trusting that Cerberus will only do the things you want them to, once they have control of the base, its a leap of faith and its not one i'm willing to make.

I'm hopeing they will keep hteir end of hte bargain. If not, the s*** has already hit the fan and I gave it my all.
No regrets.
If on other hand I blew the base up..and it ended up with mass extinction....

In other words, better for me to wrong than for you.

As for whether or not TIM would go to war with other races once he's got a superior technological advantage, the fact that you think you shouldn't be concerned for what may happen after the reapers are defeated or not, is short sighted at best and foolhardy at worst.

And your idea that TIM can magicly poop ships and money out of thin air is even more ammusing.
Quite the contrary, what may happen after is very much on my mind.

Which is exactly why I'm so willing to save the base. Becasue Cerberus simply isn't big enough to go to war, even with repaer tech. Even unde rthe best circumstances. EDI said it had like ...150 operatives in several cells.
You can't take over the universe with that..Even with a million you couldn't!
Assuming you wanted to take over the universe.

But since half of you don't even understand what Cerberus is about, I can't really blamce you for coming up with stupid BS like this.

No, you are the one missing the point and avoiding to answer the question.

You have no plan to beating  the Reapers. You got no ace up your sleeve. You ADMIT that. And yet you destroy the newely found "ace". That is the very definition of stupid. The price of faliur is extinction.

Explain to me how can anything Cerberus could POSSIBLY do be worse than extinction? Pease, go ahead. I'm listening.


And yes, the base is a potential weapon. Basic common sense woul tell you that much. If just a few pieces of Sovereign yielded EDI and the thanix cannon, just think of what the base + reaper corpse could.
It might bea enhancements to starship, or it might just be tactical information - I really doubt the base would yield a doomsday weapon of doom - but anything taht enhances your fleets or underrstanding of reapers increases your chances of survival dramaticly.


Your priorities are seriously mesed up.

Once again your premise is based on an assumption that the base is somehow in your own words an "ace up your sleeve" something you cannot know and can only speculate and hope for.

You've convinced yourself that keeping the base is the only way to defeat the reapers therefore destroying it means you cannot which is not something you know either way when you make the choice.

So you then have to weigh up potential positives against potential negatives, this is where Cerberus and TIM come into the equation big time in my choice. While there have been technolgical advances made from studying and incorporating reaper tech, there have also been some disastrous consequences from studying that same tech.

Cerberus have a shoddy track record in their handling of both experiments and reaper tech, they have shown a willingness to use whatever means they have to in order to acheive the results they desire. For example say the only real benefit of the collector base was to be able to either indoctrinate or create a different version of the human reaper (using not humans but some other races).

Would Cerberus use that indoctrination or create that reaper if they felt that was the only way to win?

Is that a price your willing to pay?

For me the answer is a resounding no and considering my options are destroy the base or hand it over to Cerberus i then must take the only option available to me, destroy it.

You ask what could Cerberus do worse than extinction, subjugation is just as bad imo and that is something i have to concern myself with when making my choice.

There is no point in defeating the reapers only to then find in the process you've created just as big a monster and while with your crystal ball and newly found prediction skills you may think this isn't something Cerberus will turn into, my experiences with them have shown me that they may already be there.

It's called Reasonable Deduction. Look it up.

Yes, it is a ace up my sleeve because it was used to CONSTRUCT A REPAER an has a NEW REPAER CORPSE in it. Only a utter idiot would think nothing will come from that.

No, I didn't say the base is the ONLY way to defaet the reapers. BUT it is the only KNOWN way. The BEST bet at defeating them.
In the absence of other options, it is the best one.


And no, your silly hypothetic fantasy scenarios don't interest me. The only thing that comes out of hte base is indoctriantion or knowledge to construct a reaper? You're contradicting yourself here.
If you know how to build a repeaer, then you have knowledge of it's weakneses too. You also jknow how to buiild it's weapons and shields. If you know how to indoctrinate, then you also know how to interfere with it.
Knowledge doesn't exist in a vacuum.

But, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume Cerberus really make a reaper of it own or misbihaves in another way. Shep knows where the collector base is and has the IFF. Wha'ts stoping him from charing in with the Alliance fleet and torch the place? A single reaper is not a problem for the galaxy.

bottom point - anything negative Cerbers does is something the alliance and other races can deal wiht FAR more easily than the Repaer invasion.
Anything positive can change the tide of war.

You CAN'T create a bigger monster out of Cerberus than the repaers are. That is literally impossible. Cerberus CAN'T subjugate the galaxy. Also impossible.

The fact you are even making this redicolous scenarios shows your lack of good overview of the situation.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]alperez wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have logic on my side, you have garbage.

I asked you several times to explain to me exactly how the harmfull results could be worse than exctinction. You failed to reply. Because you don't you don't have a replay to that.

The fact of the matter is, that even with the worst-possible Cerberus senario, the risk is STILL worth taking a hunderd times over.

[/quote]

Fair enough, subjugation is imo as bad as extinction, people will fight not only for their lives but for their freedom and some people would rather die than give up that freedom. To me there is no point in beating the reapers if in the methods i've used to beat them then dooms the galaxy to an equal or worse faith.

You believe that the worst possible cerberus sceanrio is still a risk worth taking whearas i don't, but thats because in your own logic you've convinced yourself that the only way to win, is to take whatever risks you can take even if those risks end up biting you in the ass.[/quote]

The worst possible Cerberus scenario you are imagining is impossible.

And FYI - subjugation is better than extinction, because a subjugated man can free himself and rise again. There is hope. Not that Cerberus could ever, in a million years subjugate the galaxy.....






[quote][quote]

Pray tell, how do you plan on stoping anyone to be dominant? You can't. SOMEONE will always be dominant.

And to answer that quastion - humanity.
Cerberus is a former Black Ops gorup. It does not lead the Alliance. It feeds it tech and data to make it stronger. Cerbers does not lead humantiy and never will. It does not make political and military decisions.

[/quote]

While i may not be able to stop one species domination over everyone elses, that doesn't mean i have to help it either and if im not helping i acheive a brief respite, then i have done everything i can to stop it.[/quote]

Nope, no you don't. It doesn't work that way.
Right now, you're not doing anything to help US domination. I've yet to see any respite.



[quote]
What cerberus is has yet to be completely defined, what we have is what they were, not what they actually are. You say cerberus doesn't lead humanity and it never will, then why do everything they do other than to increase their power and influence?[/quote]

To make humanity stronger. To prepare it for the coming of the repaers and the challenges beyond.


[quote]
Why do they take steps to stop or kill anyone who's agenda is different than their own and use every means in their power to influence events into the outcome they desire?[/quote]

Becasue that's what Black Ops groups do.
Try to steer events towards a goal. Political goal, economical, miltiary.


[quote]
You say they don't make political and military decisions and yet that's not even true in your own posts or did they not lobby,cajole or browbeat the alliance into creating the Normandy.[/quote]

They don't make the decision and they don't control the military or the administration, but they do have some influence. Does a larage military manufacturar/developer control the US government?

[quote]
Have they not in your own words killed a pope in order to ensure a war didn't break out. [/quote]

Would you rahter they didn't and millions died in a war?


[quote]
If those are not examples of an organisation making military or political decisions then i don't know what is.[/quote]

So if I shoot someone because I don't like his policy, I'm making a political decisions?

I don't know why I even bother with you, since oyu cleary have no idea even how our own world functions, let alone the Me one.
Governments and rouge organizations are not one and the same. A rouge organization doing something doesn't mean it controls hte government and makes decisions for it.


[quote]
Cerberus have an agenda, they want to force that agenda to the point of that being the only agenda so whether or not they would nominally or not be in leading humanity in reality it really is.[/quote]

Nope. That's not how it works.

The agenda is strong humanity. If humanity is strongand dominant, then that agenda is fulfilled.
But that doesn't mean they control or lead humanity. Cerberus can't go and say "let's wage war on turians" and humanity jumps and wages war.


[quote]
Your now backtracking on your the base is so important in defeating the reapers, because apparently now the tech and info wouldn't yeild something, that would make such a technological leap possible.

If thats the case then what is the real point of keeping the base, since according to your analysis the only real benefit technolgically would be something that could stop the all powerful reapers, but be useless against all the nations that your so worried the reapers could easily destroy.[/quote]



Again, your ignorance is staggering.

I'm not backtracking aynthing. Your'e expecting a doomsday weapon. Yet that is silly to expect. Enhanced tech - such as imporved guns, shield or information on repear weakneses - could be critical to the survival fo the galaxy.
Having guns that are twice is as pwoerfull is a huge boost in firepower - a boost that will be sorely needed against the reapers. Yes, it can be used agaisnt other races - but again, Cerberus can't make effective use of it.

I seriously ask you - how???
Where will Cerberus get a navy and army powerfull enough to defeat the other races? From where? Who will feed it and equipp it? How will it take and hold the galaxy? Logistics? Economics? Practical concerns? Did you ever bother to ask those questions?
Apparently not....


[quote]
As for you idea that the only country in the world with nuclear
capibilities and the means to use those capibilities could suddenly be
occupied in a record time frame, by countries with vastly inferior
weaponry but more manpower, well history has obviously taught you
nothing.[/quote]

You might want to read up on history then. Quantity has a quality of it's own - which  has been proven trought history numerous times.
And ME takes place in space. Read upon space warfare and holding planets....





[quote]
Dominance does exist but there is also safeguards against complete and total domination, countries and their elected officials all have to follow certain codes of conduct. While not all do and not all or punished because of it, it would be unacceptable for countries to do certain things and if they did them then they would have to face certain consequences.

Cerberus are not a country and don't fall under the jurisdiction of any of the codes of conduct that countries do, they are also not a democracy or elected representatives of any particular goverment.

They do as they wish and have no fear or worry about the consequences of their actions, in that way they are akin to a terrorist organisation, one that uses whatever measures it deems fit, irrespective of anyone else.[/quote]

And humanity too will follow a certain code of conduct - that set by the galactic community and the populace that elects those officials. How does strong humantiy change that?
If humantiy is top dog at the council, how does that change anything?

You're spouting nonsese as usual.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:00 .

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


aand according to you, a bana is a animal. Yes, I see. Flawless logic.

Yes thats exactly what i said, your maturity is something you should be as proud of as your humour.

Eh? why would you deliberatly write down sentances so people can't read them? Grammar. Punctuation. You know...Lord knows typos happen to me too, but at least my sentances can be read and understood.

You've already shown a lack of understanding that grammar or punctuation really wouldn't help, rather than argue the point, instead now your relying on pointing out my typos or bad grammar, which coming from someone whose SENTANCES can be understood, is pretty childish.

CAN. Not will. Cerberus cna't do anything immaginable. They are limited by their size, funding and time.
Hence, why what they COULD possibly do (for better or worse) is what's important.

Exactly what they could possibly do for better or worse is important, however your argument is that the better far exceeds the worse, even though you have no evidence to back your argument up.

I'm hopeing they will keep hteir end of hte bargain. If not, the s*** has already hit the fan and I gave it my all.
No regrets.
If on other hand I blew the base up..and it ended up with mass extinction....

In other words, better for me to wrong than for you.

Hope, which is exactly the point i've made on numerous occasions, you hope they keep their end of the bargain and hope the info or tech inside is something important.

I hope that in not giving the base to people i don't expect to keep up their end of the bargain, people i believe will do things that aren't actually neccessary to defeat the reapers, I'm not in fact dooming the galaxy to extinction.

Actually its better for either of us to be right, the only difference is that in my version i haven't taken a great risk and in yours the risk was worth taking.

And your idea that TIM can magicly poop ships and money out of thin air is even more ammusing.
Quite the contrary, what may happen after is very much on my mind.

Which is exactly why I'm so willing to save the base. Becasue Cerberus simply isn't big enough to go to war, even with repaer tech. Even unde rthe best circumstances. EDI said it had like ...150 operatives in several cells.
You can't take over the universe with that..Even with a million you couldn't!
Assuming you wanted to take over the universe.

But since half of you don't even understand what Cerberus is about, I can't really blamce you for coming up with stupid BS like this.

Considering that apparently Cerbeurs make up 40% of the enemies we face in me3, have you considered the possibilty that Edi was wrong in her calculations?

As for what Cerberus or TIM can magically poop, well that damn Atlas must have came from somewhere.

It's called Reasonable Deduction. Look it up.

Yes, it is a ace up my sleeve because it was used to CONSTRUCT A REPAER an has a NEW REPAER CORPSE in it. Only a utter idiot would think nothing will come from that.

No, I didn't say the base is the ONLY way to defaet the reapers. BUT it is the only KNOWN way. The BEST bet at defeating them.
In the absence of other options, it is the best one.


And no, your silly hypothetic fantasy scenarios don't interest me. The only thing that comes out of hte base is indoctriantion or knowledge to construct a reaper? You're contradicting yourself here.
If you know how to build a repeaer, then you have knowledge of it's weakneses too. You also jknow how to buiild it's weapons and shields. If you know how to indoctrinate, then you also know how to interfere with it.
Knowledge doesn't exist in a vacuum.

But, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume Cerberus really make a reaper of it own or misbihaves in another way. Shep knows where the collector base is and has the IFF. Wha'ts stoping him from charing in with the Alliance fleet and torch the place? A single reaper is not a problem for the galaxy.

bottom point - anything negative Cerbers does is something the alliance and other races can deal wiht FAR more easily than the Repaer invasion.
Anything positive can change the tide of war.

You CAN'T create a bigger monster out of Cerberus than the repaers are. That is literally impossible. Cerberus CAN'T subjugate the galaxy. Also impossible.

The fact you are even making this redicolous scenarios shows your lack of good overview of the situation.

You've reasonably deduced that the base is a known way of beating the reapers, How exactly?

Was there a button somewhere in the base that said "key to defeating the reapers here, please press".

Your using what you think may be the outcome of whatever is gained on the base to fit your argument, something you don't know at the time but can in your own words HOPE FOR.

Whether or not you find my scenarios silly or not means about as much to me as your concern with my grammar.

The mere fact that you don't consider any of the potential negatives i've pointed out as important shows the quality of your decision making to be in serious default, rather than concern yourself with negative consequences you've instead relyed on hope and faith that your preferred outcome will be the right one.

You say that if the worst case sceanrio happens, well we'll just get the council or alliance to stop them, that a single reaper is not a problem for the galaxy.

Didn't sovereign almost take out everyone on his own?

Aren't the reapers themselves going to attack irrespective of what cerberus does or doesn't do?

My nightmare scenario is what happens once we beat the reapers, there will be casulities and the survivors whoever they are will be in a much weaker position.

Do you really think that then they could so easily overwhelm a Cerberus attack?

Modifié par alperez, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:09 .

[jedierick]

Broken. What happens in Me3 is irrelevant to this discussion, since the decision is amde in ME2, with only information avilable to Sheppard.

I ask you  - did Sheppard have any backup plan, any anti-reaper weapon or strategy when the "destroy the bese" moment came?
Yes or no?

Then I woudl have to say yes, given what information I have in ME1 and ME2, I think Shepard, as well as other species has the weapons capable of beating the reapers. I dont think the goal at this point would be to find something to beat them, rather make everyone aware of their coming and prepare them for it, a united front.

Soverigns attack and defeat on the citidel shows that the tech to beat the reapers is already there. Did it take a lot to defeat one reaper, yes, but they did it. Shepard already beat the collectors ship with Normandy, being that the collecotrs are the reapers creation, and most likely oversaw the creation of everything on the collector base, it is safe to assume that collectors ship is all reaper tech, since shepard destroyed that, we know that the tech to beat reapers is there.

Also, I beat the game again, blew up the base, and caught something that I had not remembered this time. Based onthe scans that EDI did (So we know she did in fact scan the human reaper and get data on it) the human reaper was incomplete, and if the base did have anything, it woudl be incompete data on the human reaper. Seeing as though we beat it with small wepaons, and not a ship, why would anything off of the base be usefull in relation to the incomplete human reaper? 

[Inverness Moon]

It feels nice being on the sidelines of the argument.

Arguments like these always reinforce why saving the base is the better choice.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


And wrecks - they were destroyed. Normandy was not. That tells you enough. Those ships weren't powerfull enough.
And it's a safe bet you wont' find better tech in them then in the reaper base - because reapers exterminated all races before, including those who owned those wrecks, hence reapers are technologicly superior to them.

So no, you don't have a better alternative.

And your ego again blinds you to the needs of hte galaxy.

Is everyone on this godforsaken forum immune to common sense and logic?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW POWERFUL SHIPS ARE! IF YOU RAM A ROCK AT FTL SPEEDS, YOU WILL DIE! PEOPLE IN MASS EFFECT HAVE DIED BECAUSE THEIR SHIP HIT A SMALL METAL BOLT AT FTL SPEEDS AND THEIR SHIP WAS RIPPED APART BECAUSE OF IT! 

Goddamnit, people are stupid...

And just because TIM says it, doesn't make it true. As clearly shown aboard the Collector ship.

And the need of Cerberus =/= the need of the galaxy.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:35 .

[alperez]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The worst possible Cerberus scenario you are imagining is impossible.

And FYI - subjugation is better than extinction, because a subjugated man can free himself and rise again. There is hope. Not that Cerberus could ever, in a million years subjugate the galaxy.....

[/quote]

Of course its the worst possible scenario i'm imagining, just as it is the best possible one you are when you make your choice.

In your opinion its better to be subjugated than be extinct and while its true that at least you'd be alive so technically you'd have hope. It still misses the key point to some people its better to die free than live in chains, to those people the idea that they could save themselves only to be subjagated and then have to fight to free themselves may not seem like such a great plan.

Again its the worst possible scenario that Cerberus could do as i say just as it is the worst possible scenario that me destroying the base is in some way dooming the galaxy, which is the thrust of your argument.


[quote]


Nope, no you don't. It doesn't work that way.
Right now, you're not doing anything to help US domination. I've yet to see any respite.
[/quote]

You do realise mass effect is a game right? that we aren't in fact stopping the reapers in reality? I ask because yu seem to be trying to equate my actions in a game with my actions in real life.

Is the line that blurred to you really?

[quote]
To make humanity stronger. To prepare it for the coming of the repaers and the challenges beyond.
[/quote]

To boldly go where no man has gone before, lol.

Thats what you believe i believe differently.
[quote]


Becasue that's what Black Ops groups do.
Try to steer events towards a goal. Political goal, economical, miltiary.
[/quote]

Yes but who's agenda are they pushing forward, their own, not the case with standard black ops groups and even if it was it doesn't have to be an agenda i agree with.
[quote]

They don't make the decision and they don't control the military or the administration, but they do have some influence. Does a larage military manufacturar/developer control the US government?
[/quote]
[
While they may not make the decision they do in fact organise decisions to go the way they wish, what makes them different is not just the methods they use but the reasoning behind those methods.

Its to promote their idealogy not to make profits.
[/quote]

Would you rahter they didn't and millions died in a war?
[/quote]

Shuldn't have been their choice to make, they are unelected and unaccountable.

[quote]

So if I shoot someone because I don't like his policy, I'm making a political decisions?
I don't know why I even bother with you, since oyu cleary have no idea even how our own world functions, let alone the Me one.
Governments and rouge organizations are not one and the same. A rouge organization doing something doesn't mean it controls hte government and makes decisions for it.
[/quote]

Once again we're talking about a game not the real world.

But to answer your point, if shooting someone because you disagree with the policy they intend to enact suddenly forces a change in that policy, then how would this not be making a political decision?

[quote]

Nope. That's not how it works.

The agenda is strong humanity. If humanity is strongand dominant, then that agenda is fulfilled.
But that doesn't mean they control or lead humanity. Cerberus can't go and say "let's wage war on turians" and humanity jumps and wages war.
[/quote]

Your understanding is that all they want is a stronger dominant humanity and that's it, they go away, won't influence events or use that power in any other form whatsoever.

Maybe that's right, my question though is what if your wrong? something you obviously haven't even considered.

[quote]

Again, your ignorance is staggering.

I'm not backtracking aynthing. Your'e expecting a doomsday weapon. Yet that is silly to expect. Enhanced tech - such as imporved guns, shield or information on repear weakneses - could be critical to the survival fo the galaxy.
Having guns that are twice is as pwoerfull is a huge boost in firepower - a boost that will be sorely needed against the reapers. Yes, it can be used agaisnt other races - but again, Cerberus can't make effective use of it.

I seriously ask you - how???
Where will Cerberus get a navy and army powerfull enough to defeat the other races? From where? Who will feed it and equipp it? How will it take and hold the galaxy? Logistics? Economics? Practical concerns? Did you ever bother to ask those questions?
Apparently not....
[/quote]

Your the one who brought up destroying the base is dooming the galaxy not me, so your the one who's backtracking.

I never said there wouldn't be any benefit in keeping the base, what i've argued it that when weighing up the pro's and cons, you have to accept those cons as part of your choice.

If after doing that you choose to keep the base then so be it, but rather than just argue that the cost is worth the price like every single base keeper, you then argue that not keeping it is somehow akin to dooming the galaxy, something you can not know and only have an opinion on.

As for Cerberus and how they may accomplish the worst case scenario i've speculated on, i've answered that already.

Tech superiority makes it possible that numerical advantage is nullified.
[quote]

You might want to read up on history then. Quantity has a quality of it's own - which  has been proven trought history numerous times.
And ME takes place in space. Read upon space warfare and holding planets....

[/quote]

While quantity does have its advantages these advantage are dwarfed in relation of the technolgoical gap.

Does it always, no, but in the vast majority of cases it does.

I'm glad you seem to have remembered that ME takes place in space, maybe that will help in your difficulty remembering that this is a game.
[quote]

And humanity too will follow a certain code of conduct - that set by the galactic community and the populace that elects those officials. How does strong humantiy change that?
If humantiy is top dog at the council, how does that change anything?

You're spouting nonsese as usual.

[/quote]

It is how they use that dominant position thats the key question, you believe that humanity would just be happy with their lot, just gladly sit at the head of the table and then do nothing that benefits them at the expense of someone else.

What happens when the others start questioning the dominance of humanity?

What happens if because of superior technology, humanity can't be questioned.

More importantly Is it humanity or Cerbeurs calling the shots?

Modifié par alperez, 27 juillet 2011 - 09:47 .