1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Ultai]

Personally I went with my gut and kept it first time around, given what Legion said about it not having inherent ethical value, won't return those lost and may save others. It's basically a tool to be used, like a gun. Better to have one and not need it than need it and not have it, same reasoning for me keeping the genophage cure...possible leverage, even though I don't particularly want to use it.

[jedierick]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...

Saren was consistant in his support of the council and carrying out their orders, right up until he BETRAYED them and tried to help the reapers take over the universe.

So is Sheppard. and Anderson..and Hackett.

Why don't we go kiil everyone?

Had Shepard not been lucky enough and defeated him, the reapers woudl already be here. You saying that TIM, based on the type of person he is doesnt have it in him to betray everyone? And if he did betray everyone, what effect that would have?  You dont know, you have assumptions, as usual.

Who is this "everyone"?
And whom can you trust? Trust is a fickle thing.
Teh survival of hte entire GALAXY is at stake. And you base your decisions on the egoistical need for other people to appease you and your moral sensibilties.

No, I don't think he's betray humanity. Even if he did, the situation can't get much worse, while it could get a lot better. I've yet to see anyone debunk that or offer any reasonable counter-argument.

I dont understand what you mean by why dont we kill everyone, your rebuttle there does not make sense.

And um, everyone, usually means all people invovled, or everyone relating to the situation, it is an all encompassing word. I base my decisions off of the fact that I cannot depend on certain people like TIM to work with me, they manipulate and work behind my back, and the end justifies their means. If TIM had to choose between himself and the whole entire human race, he would choose himself. He has proven this, based on his actions. He thinks he is above all.

Yes he has betrayed humanity, albeit to try and further their purpose in the galalxy, to make them dominate, but he has betrayed them. The situation CAN get worse, you refuse to see that. Right now, I am only worried about the reapers, when TIM betrays me, I have him AND the reapers to worry about.  Allowing me to focus on the reapers gives me a better fighting chance than having to worry about cerberus and the reapers. Or if the betrayal comes in the form of me being dead, then that is that, its done. How can you say having the reapers and Cerberus to worry about is not worse than worrying about just the reapers, your logic is flawed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...
And um, everyone, usually means all people invovled, or everyone relating to the situation, it is an all encompassing word. I base my decisions off of the fact that I cannot depend on certain people like TIM to work with me, they manipulate and work behind my back, and the end justifies their means. If TIM had to choose between himself and the whole entire human race, he would choose himself. He has proven this, based on his actions. He thinks he is above all.

Yes he has betrayed humanity, albeit to try and further their purpose in the galalxy, to make them dominate, but he has betrayed them. The situation CAN get worse, you refuse to see that. Right now, I am only worried about the reapers, when TIM betrays me, I have him AND the reapers to worry about.  Allowing me to focus on the reapers gives me a better fighting chance than having to worry about cerberus and the reapers. Or if the betrayal comes in the form of me being dead, then that is that, its done. How can you say having the reapers and Cerberus to worry about is not worse than worrying about just the reapers, your logic is flawed.

Exactly on what are oyu basing all of this?
Because I can't find anything anywhere to back that up.

TIM betrayed humainty? When?
He'd betray humanity to save himself? When?



And you are right whne you say fighting Repers + Cerberus is more difficult than fihgitng jsut the reapers. But Cerberus is small fry. 150 operative, rememebr?

A few extra troopers on the Reaper side means squat. Even moreso since hte decisive battles will be fought in space. Repaers ARE spaceships after all.

Now compare that to fighting agaisnt the reapers with improved guns. Or knowledge of their weakneses. Or defense agaisnt indoctrination.

Benefits outstrip the negatives by lighyears.

[Someone With Mass]

The line "Cerberus IS humanity!" is a pretty dead giveaway.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar-"My logic is flawless,and my truth is the only truth and I'm always right,and Shepard has never shown himself to be resourceful,saving the base is THE ABSOLUTE ONLY CHOICE."

[Someone With Mass]

Why should I even trust him if he spits out such nonsense? Oh, yeah. I don't. I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that he will do whatever he can to benefit mankind with the Collector technology based on what I've seen in the game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]alperez wrote...
Eh? why would you deliberatly write down sentances so people can't read them? Grammar. Punctuation. You know...Lord knows typos happen to me too, but at least my sentances can be read and understood.

[/quote]

You've already shown a lack of understanding that grammar or punctuation really wouldn't help, rather than argue the point, instead now your relying on pointing out my typos or bad grammar, which coming from someone whose SENTANCES can be understood, is pretty childish.[/quote]

I cannot argue your point WHEN I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

Is this a comedy act? Write a coherent sentance, so that I cna parse it. Then I can reply properly.

WTF is this supposed to even mean?
[quote]
Cerberus are willing to do whatever it takes irrespective of the cost in
order to acheive their goal you know this when making the choice to
hand the base over to them, while the alternative is that there could be
something extremely useful on the base that could help you defeat the
reapers could not will. [/quote]

???






[quote]
Exactly what they could possibly do for better or worse is important, however your argument is that the better far exceeds the worse, even though you have no evidence to back your argument up.
[/quote]

I have all the evidence for that. Plus basic logic.
You keep taking about a tiny criminal organization taking over the whole universe. Never bothering not even for a second to think if it's even feasable and HOW.



[quote]
I hope that in not giving the base to people i don't expect to keep up their end of the bargain, people i believe will do things that aren't actually neccessary to defeat the reapers, I'm not in fact dooming the galaxy to extinction.[/quote]

So what is nevcessary to defeat the reapers? Let's hear your plan. Your better alternative.



[quote][quote]
And your idea that TIM can magicly poop ships and money out of thin air is even more ammusing.
Quite the contrary, what may happen after is very much on my mind.

Which is exactly why I'm so willing to save the base. Becasue Cerberus simply isn't big enough to go to war, even with repaer tech. Even unde rthe best circumstances. EDI said it had like ...150 operatives in several cells.
You can't take over the universe with that..Even with a million you couldn't!
Assuming you wanted to take over the universe.

But since half of you don't even understand what Cerberus is about, I can't really blamce you for coming up with stupid BS like this.

[/quote]

Considering that apparently Cerbeurs make up 40% of the enemies we face in me3, have you considered the possibilty that Edi was wrong in her calculations?

As for what Cerberus or TIM can magically poop, well that damn Atlas must have came from somewhere.[/quote]

That's called gameplay and story segragation. You should look it up.
Cerberus has troops. But not nearly enough to even take over a single planet and hold it..let alone the whole galaxy.

And your honestly comparing a few specilized mecha with military warships?
You didn't even bother to reply to this properly.
Where will Cerberus get THE FLEET necessary for this? And Logistic support. And funding? And recruits. And everything else?


[quote]
[quote]
It's called Reasonable Deduction. Look it up.

Yes, it is a ace up my sleeve because it was used to CONSTRUCT A REPAER an has a NEW REPAER CORPSE in it. Only a utter idiot would think nothing will come from that.

No, I didn't say the base is the ONLY way to defaet the reapers. BUT it is the only KNOWN way. The BEST bet at defeating them.
In the absence of other options, it is the best one.


And no, your silly hypothetic fantasy scenarios don't interest me. The only thing that comes out of hte base is indoctriantion or knowledge to construct a reaper? You're contradicting yourself here.
If you know how to build a repeaer, then you have knowledge of it's weakneses too. You also jknow how to buiild it's weapons and shields. If you know how to indoctrinate, then you also know how to interfere with it.
Knowledge doesn't exist in a vacuum.

But, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume Cerberus really make a reaper of it own or misbihaves in another way. Shep knows where the collector base is and has the IFF. Wha'ts stoping him from charing in with the Alliance fleet and torch the place? A single reaper is not a problem for the galaxy.

bottom point - anything negative Cerbers does is something the alliance and other races can deal wiht FAR more easily than the Repaer invasion.
Anything positive can change the tide of war.

You CAN'T create a bigger monster out of Cerberus than the repaers are. That is literally impossible. Cerberus CAN'T subjugate the galaxy. Also impossible.

The fact you are even making this redicolous scenarios shows your lack of good overview of the situation.
[/quote]

You've reasonably deduced that the base is a known way of beating the reapers, How exactly?

Because it has reaper tech in it that can be reverse-engineered. And knowledge. If a few bits of Soveregin can give us EDI and Thanix, then the base + reper corpse, by any sensible logic, should give us more.

Was there a button somewhere in the base that said "key to defeating the reapers here, please press".

It's not an auto-repear defeat bottun. Nor did I ever say it was. but it is a way to close the technological gap between us and possibly find weakneses. If those arne't good ways to resist the reapers, what is?

The mere fact that you don't consider any of the potential negatives i've pointed out as important shows the quality of your decision making to be in serious default, rather than concern yourself with negative consequences you've instead relyed on hope and faith that your preferred outcome will be the right one.

The mere fact that the potential negatives you mention are fantasy and have no basis in logic or facts is what I'm worried about.
I relay on logic and probablity, keeping in mind all possible outcomes. You..well I don't know what you're basing your decisions om, other than ignorance.

You say that if the worst case sceanrio happens, well we'll just get the council or alliance to stop them, that a single reaper is not a problem for the galaxy.

Didn't sovereign almost take out everyone on his own?

No. Sovereign + Geth took on the Citadel fleet. Which was comprised of cruisers + DA. The combined force of the citadel races is FAR greater than what was present at the Citadel.
But assuming you are right here, if sovereign can indeed take out everyone alone, doesn't that make the base even MORE worth keeping? Since that makes the repers even more impossible to stop?

Aren't the reapers themselves going to attack irrespective of what cerberus does or doesn't do?

Correct. Which means the probablity of repars raping the galaxy is 100%. And that is the probablity you should be concering yourself with.

My nightmare scenario is what happens once we beat the reapers, there will be casulities and the survivors whoever they are will be in a much weaker position. Do you really think that then they could so easily overwhelm a Cerberus attack?

Yes. Not only will Cerberus also fight (on one side or antoher) - so it wil lbe weaker too, but Cerberus doesn't have an armada of warships nor millions of troops. It CAN'T take over the universe.

[/quote]

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:07 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
He's speaking figuratively.

Or I guess you think that mechanic on Tuchanka litterally is the military might of clan Urdnot!

No, really?

I thought he meant that humanity was the three-headed dog monster, guarding the gates of hell.

Just shut up with those "remarks". I'm not in the mood for your BS.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar-"My logic is flawless,and my truth is the only truth and I'm always right,and Shepard has never shown himself to be resourceful,saving the base is THE ABSOLUTE ONLY CHOICE."

Cry me a river.

But given that you have no arguments of any kind, I guess that's the best you cna do!

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

My arguments have been stated,your only argument is if you disagree it must not be true.

[jedierick]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jedierick wrote...
And um, everyone, usually means all people invovled, or everyone relating to the situation, it is an all encompassing word. I base my decisions off of the fact that I cannot depend on certain people like TIM to work with me, they manipulate and work behind my back, and the end justifies their means. If TIM had to choose between himself and the whole entire human race, he would choose himself. He has proven this, based on his actions. He thinks he is above all.

Yes he has betrayed humanity, albeit to try and further their purpose in the galalxy, to make them dominate, but he has betrayed them. The situation CAN get worse, you refuse to see that. Right now, I am only worried about the reapers, when TIM betrays me, I have him AND the reapers to worry about.  Allowing me to focus on the reapers gives me a better fighting chance than having to worry about cerberus and the reapers. Or if the betrayal comes in the form of me being dead, then that is that, its done. How can you say having the reapers and Cerberus to worry about is not worse than worrying about just the reapers, your logic is flawed.

Exactly on what are oyu basing all of this?
Because I can't find anything anywhere to back that up.

TIM betrayed humainty? When?
He'd betray humanity to save himself? When?



And you are right whne you say fighting Repers + Cerberus is more difficult than fihgitng jsut the reapers. But Cerberus is small fry. 150 operative, rememebr?

A few extra troopers on the Reaper side means squat. Even moreso since hte decisive battles will be fought in space. Repaers ARE spaceships after all.

Now compare that to fighting agaisnt the reapers with improved guns. Or knowledge of their weakneses. Or defense agaisnt indoctrination.

Benefits outstrip the negatives by lighyears.

TIM betrayed humanity the moment he said he was for humans being the dominant species, converting follwers to his casue, then expirimenting on humans, leaving them to die on various research missions, etc.

And I said TIM woudl choose himself over humanity, he has proven that this is the course of action he woudl take, by his actions thus far. 

How do you know Cerberus is small fry, accoriding to Miranda and the game itself, nobody but TIM knows how big or small they are. Still size doesnt matter in this case, the knowledge they  already have is what is important. Using that knowledge against Shepard, is what woud be worse.

I addressed weapons in another post, but to summarize, we already have teh tech to destroy reapers, we lack the unity. Soverign was destroyed, and the collectrs ship was essentially reaper tech, was destroyed by the Normandy. So the weapons are there, the unity is not. Additionally the human reaper on the base was incomplete, based off of the visual we had and the scans that EDI did, we took out the human reaper with hand held weapons, what use would information on a half built reaper that was destroyed with hand held weapons be? 

[Lotion Soronarr]

You arguments have been torn down..brutally I might add.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Alocormin wrote...

A most excellent Star Trek quote, one that I find repeatedly applicable to people who think the only thing that should ever be done is the logical thing.

"Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. "

Logic can create good math equations, good, symmetrical models of basic understandings. It is frequently not what is behind our ideals, our art, or ultimately our survival against all odds. Logic cannot produce understanding.

If you try to build a model of something you have limited understanding of, you will only continue to have limited understanding of it. Thus logic tends to not work in situations of unusual proportion and sophistication.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You arguments have been torn down..brutally I might add.

You just said I didn't have any,your idea of them being torn down is you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala cant hear you lalalala cant hear you",you keep pushing forth your opinion as fact.None of my arguments have been "torn down" you simply disagree and therefore it must be false.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

TIM betrayed humanity the moment he said he was for humans being the dominant species, converting follwers to his casue, then expirimenting on humans, leaving them to die on various research missions, etc.

???:blink:
So by wanting humanity to be dominant...he betrayed humanity?

Waaaat?

And I said TIM woudl choose himself over humanity, he has proven that this is the course of action he woudl take, by his actions thus far.

How and when? When was this proven?
Point me to something canon that proves this pls.

How do you know Cerberus is small fry, accoriding to Miranda and the game itself, nobody but TIM knows how big or small they are. Still size doesnt matter in this case, the knowledge they  already have is what is important. Using that knowledge against Shepard, is what woud be worse.

EDI states 150 operatives. Regardless, as a Black Ops organization is simply cannot be large. It's obvious it has large funding. But again, Cerberus can't take over the galaxy..

Usign that knowledge against Sheppard? Erm..speaking from a in-universe perspective, nobody really think that hte universe is doomed wihout Sheppard. Shep is the main protagonist and he's there to save the day, but .."he" doesn't know it. nor does anyone else. In universe, Cerberus using  collector knowledge against Sheppard isn't a big deal. Nor a large price to pay.

I addressed weapons in another post, but to summarize, we already have teh tech to destroy reapers, we lack the unity. Soverign was destroyed, and the collectrs ship was essentially reaper tech, was destroyed by the Normandy. So the weapons are there, the unity is not. Additionally the human reaper on the base was incomplete, based off of the visual we had and the scans that EDI did, we took out the human reaper with hand held weapons, what use would information on a half built reaper that was destroyed with hand held weapons be? 

2 fleets..for 1 reaper. Yea, you can take it out, but at what cost? Is that ratio sustinable when 1000 reapers show up? Nope.


The baby-reper was destroyed by targeting weak points. Yes, it was taken out by hand-held weapons (terrible plot, but hey...). It's a still a new reaper. It still has advanced tech. There's tons one could learn or get from it.
Not all tech is in the form of a big gun or think shield - those rely on a lot of less visible tech. Better capacitors. Super-conductors. Flexible materials. Etc, etc... That tech makes other tech possible.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You arguments have been torn down..brutally I might add.

You just said I didn't have any,your idea of them being torn down is you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala cant hear you lalalala cant hear you",you keep pushing forth your opinion as fact.None of my arguments have been "torn down" you simply disagree and therefore it must be false.

No, they have been torn down.
You got no proper arguments. What are they? Lets hear them if you got something.

I spent this entire thread tering down redicolous arguments. A few more won't hurt.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You arguments have been torn down..brutally I might add.

You just said I didn't have any,your idea of them being torn down is you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala cant hear you lalalala cant hear you",you keep pushing forth your opinion as fact.None of my arguments have been "torn down" you simply disagree and therefore it must be false.

No, they have been torn down.
You got no proper arguments. What are they? Lets hear them if you got something.

I spent this entire thread tering down redicolous arguments. A few more won't hurt.

You seem to be a hardworking individual,scroll back a few pages.

[alperez]

Apparently Lotion thinks he drinks Tigers Blood and he's Winning.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

alperez wrote...

Apparently Lotion thinks he drinks Tigers Blood and he's Winning.

Lotion-"lalalala cant hear you!"

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You arguments have been torn down..brutally I might add.

You just said I didn't have any,your idea of them being torn down is you putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala cant hear you lalalala cant hear you",you keep pushing forth your opinion as fact.None of my arguments have been "torn down" you simply disagree and therefore it must be false.

No, they have been torn down.
You got no proper arguments. What are they? Lets hear them if you got something.

I spent this entire thread tering down redicolous arguments. A few more won't hurt.

You seem to be a hardworking individual,scroll back a few pages.

I'm quite sure I adressed your points...but I'll amuse you.

Care to be more specifc here? Page number? Roughly?

EDIT:

Looking back a few pages I see nothing that's actually an argument. More or less just you repeating "I play the game how I want"
If some of what you said is relevant to the topic, it must be further back. I'm not gonna sift trough 60+ pages to go lookiing for it, especially not since you know better than me where it should be, so it should be easier for you to find htem than me.
Find them, quote them. I'll reply.

Othrewise, don't bother me.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 juillet 2011 - 11:55 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

59-64....On second thought I've been contributing most of this thread.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Apparently Lotion thinks he drinks Tigers Blood and he's Winning.

Apparently you think you're capable of participating in a resonable discussion.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Apparently you think you're capable of participating in a resonable discussion.

I've seen this "discussion", and "reasonable" is the last word I'd use to describe it.

It is more "I am always right, and you are always wrong".