1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Matteo493 wrote...

IMO the best decision is to save the base.Infact if I save the C-base there are two alternatives. The first is that we can study it and have some benefit from all the collected information while the second is that the Cerberus members will be indoctrinated but even if it happens the Reaper's threat is so large that the new enemy in prospective isn't influential. On the other hand if we destroy the base there will be no advantages and also TIM for sure will become an enemy.

TY for saying IMO instead of trying to enforce your opinion as fact .
Don't you end ME2 telling TIM to shove it regardless of the base decision?(I only saved the base once I dont remember)

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Matteo493 wrote...

IMO the best decision is to save the base.Infact if I save the C-base there are two alternatives. The first is that we can study it and have some benefit from all the collected information while the second is that the Cerberus members will be indoctrinated but even if it happens the Reaper's threat is so large that the new enemy in prospective isn't influential. On the other hand if we destroy the base there will be no advantages and also TIM for sure will become an enemy.

TY for saying IMO instead of trying to enforce your opinion as fact .
Don't you end ME2 telling TIM to shove it regardless of the base decision?(I only saved the base once I dont remember)

I picked the "we need each other" dialogue option, so my femshep is on good terms with her future husband.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Matteo493 wrote...

IMO the best decision is to save the base.Infact if I save the C-base there are two alternatives. The first is that we can study it and have some benefit from all the collected information while the second is that the Cerberus members will be indoctrinated but even if it happens the Reaper's threat is so large that the new enemy in prospective isn't influential. On the other hand if we destroy the base there will be no advantages and also TIM for sure will become an enemy.

TY for saying IMO instead of trying to enforce your opinion as fact .
Don't you end ME2 telling TIM to shove it regardless of the base decision?(I only saved the base once I dont remember)

I picked the "we need each other" dialogue option, so my femshep is on good terms with her future husband.

Hmm..perhaps some good may come of it,perhaps not...only time will tell.

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Matteo493 wrote...

IMO the best decision is to save the base.Infact if I save the C-base there are two alternatives. The first is that we can study it and have some benefit from all the collected information while the second is that the Cerberus members will be indoctrinated but even if it happens the Reaper's threat is so large that the new enemy in prospective isn't influential. On the other hand if we destroy the base there will be no advantages and also TIM for sure will become an enemy.

TY for saying IMO instead of trying to enforce your opinion as fact .
Don't you end ME2 telling TIM to shove it regardless of the base decision?(I only saved the base once I dont remember)

I picked the "we need each other" dialogue option, so my femshep is on good terms with her future husband.

Hmm..perhaps some good may come of it,perhaps not...only time will tell.

Hopefully they have their wedding inside the Collector base.

[Swimming Ferret]

VolusvsReaper wrote...

It was so I could pick the "Shut Up" option while talking to the illusive man

I did that in everyone of my playthroughs, even when I was playing Renegade since I hate him so much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]alperez wrote...

Still harping on about a mistake i made, kudos apparently in the perfect world you live in mistakes are never made.[/quote]

I'm harping still be cause you still haven't explained what it was you actually said back there.

You know when someone doesn't understand you and asks for clarification, you really should clarify it...instead of going "quit bugging me"



[quote]
Firstly your evidence is flawed because you base logic is skewed. Your entire rationale is based on the best possible outcome with no thoughts or regards to the worst one.

Secondly i've explained it countless times but you refuse to accept any explanation that doesn't conform to your view.[/quote]

You faield countless times.
I asked you a dozen times how a small orgnaization like Cerberus could take over the universe. You faield to respond to that or formulate any reasonable answer.



[quote][quote]
So what is nevcessary to defeat the reapers? Let's hear your plan. Your better alternative.

[/quote]

I don't have a plan, none of us do, isn't that the point of me3?

You However seem to have covered everything with your not keeping the base dooms the galaxy plan, that somehow what's in the base is a so ultra important that anyone who destroys it, is making a fatal error.
[/quote]

You have just proven my point here.

That you lack any plan to defeat the reapers, yet destroy a possibly vital resource, runnign jsut one hope you'll find something else.




[quote][quote]
That's called gameplay and story segragation. You should look it up.
Cerberus has troops. But not nearly enough to even take over a single planet and hold it..let alone the whole galaxy.

And your honestly comparing a few specilized mecha with military warships?
You didn't even bother to reply to this properly.
Where will Cerberus get THE FLEET necessary for this? And Logistic support. And funding? And recruits. And everything else?
[/quote]

The whole point was that you have no bloody idea just what resources cerberus has or what tech they possess, your basing your argument on what EDI says, something which now looks like incorrect info.

If your wrong on that then your wrong on everything else.[/quote]

Not just on EDI, but on genreal knowledge on Cerberus. As a former Black Ops organization, ti simply cannot be large - by any reasonable logic. To take over the galaxy, Cerberus should practicly be as large as huamnity..and at that point it would be humanity, so hte point is moot.

To take and hold territory you need boots on the ground. All those troopers need to be trained. Supplied. Ferried there. The orbit of the planet has to be secured. With a naval fleet.
Cerberus has none of that. The Normandy 2 was a huge investment on their part, and it "just" a heavy frigate.



[quote]
In overlord we saw them trying to basically create something to control the geth, if this worked wouldn't that have given them access to the ships and manpower they may need.
[/quote]


Ahh.. Finally a good point you make.
Of course, it has to be seen if they could really control them and how many. The geth themselves are split and there seems to be a limit on Davids part (he did snap because he was overtasked).
Either way, that would be a problem - but the allied races proved strong enough for the geth before.



[quote][quote]
Because it has reaper tech in it that can be reverse-engineered. And knowledge. If a few bits of Soveregin can give us EDI and Thanix, then the base + reper corpse, by any sensible logic, should give us more.
[/quote]

By definition then with these greater rewards that may be available the risk would also inherently increase.

Something again which you convieniantly ignore in your sensible logic.[/quote]

There MAY be greater risk. That is not directly proportinal as reward is, given the situation. F'cours,e what I mean by that is the better tech you get from the base, the better tech Cerberus gets and thus the risk of them doing something bad with it increasees, but agian, cerberus small size limits tthat rather nicely.



[quote][quote]
It's not an auto-repear defeat bottun. Nor did I ever say it was. but it is a way to close the technological gap between us and possibly find weakneses. If those arne't good ways to resist the reapers, what is?

[/quote]

Really so the enitre thust of you argument thus far hasn't been not keeping the base dooms the galaxy.[/quote]

Probably dooms hte galaxy. The Collector base IS the best shot at defeating the reapers.
If you got a better option or plan, I'd love to hear it. I asked tthis question a million times before, but it was never answered.



[quote]
Once again your accusing me of leaps of fantasy and not basing anything in logic while at the same time ignoring every ounce of logic that shows your own view to be incorrect.

You say you rely on logic and probability and your keeping in mind all possible outcomes and yet the biggest single facet of you whole decision, is that you trust cerberus to do what's right. That any potential negative consequence will you hope be nullified by the postives, i'm the one taking a leap of fantasy, really?[/quote]

Yes. You are the one taking a leap of fantasy. And imagining things apparenlty.
As I said before, I do not trust cerberus fully. And I don't have to.

I do keep in mind the negatives and they are inconsequential compared to the positives.

You do not trust Cerberus? What about the Krogan? The Rachni? The Geth?
What guarantee you have THEY won't turn on you?
Did you kill the Rachni queen? Destroyed the genophage cure? Sold Legion? Because if you didn't, you're a massive hypocrite.
A rachnii invasion or a geth invasion are a bigger negative than Cerberus rampage.





[quote][quote]
No. Sovereign + Geth took on the Citadel fleet. Which was comprised of cruisers + DA. The combined force of the citadel races is FAR greater than what was present at the Citadel.
But assuming you are right here, if sovereign can indeed take out everyone alone, doesn't that make the base even MORE worth keeping? Since that makes the repers even more impossible to stop?
[/quote]

Ok well considering that right up until you fight Saren it's sovereign and not the geth ships that's causing the majority of the damage, not to mention the arrival of hackett and the fleet does nothing to slow this down, i'd say one reaper could be extremely dangerous.[/quote]


Sovereign didn't even fire it's weapon before the Alliance fleet arrived.



[quote]
Lastly, again your using your own logic to try and make it fit the circumstances, Lotion saves base therefore every scenario = needed the base for that one.

If your original logic regarding the base is flawed or proves to be incorrect then your whole argument falters, everything i've suggested has been in the circumstances of that being the case.[/quote]

Eh?
I'm only using your own arguments against you... You're the one who said Sovereign can take out everyone alone, wihout thinking trough the implication of what you said.

And your statment here makes little sense.
If my original logics proves to be false...well, it hasn't been so far, despite numerous attempt, it's still rock solid.



[quote][quote]
Correct. Which means the probablity of repars raping the galaxy is 100%. And that is the probablity you should be concering yourself with.
[/quote]

Which is what i am doing by not opening a potential second front at my back and by not risking my potential allies to an organisation that may not have thier best interests at heart.[/quote]

Humanity aren't your allies?
Second front? With what army? Again, Cerberus is a small organization, It cannot match any single other race, let alone their cobined forces.




[quote][quote]

Yes. Not only will Cerberus also fight (on one side or antoher) - so it wil lbe weaker too, but Cerberus doesn't have an armada of warships nor millions of troops. It CAN'T take over the universe.

[/quote]

What cerberus may have in terms of resources is based on one piece of knowledge that you receive from EDI, a piece of knowledge that may very well be misinformation or incorrect.

What they will do once the reapers attack is something you need to be worried about, just because you believe they are with you it may not turn out that way and if it doesn't then you have strengthened a potential enemy.

Through Indoctrination, Experimental tech that we don't know about or whatever they gain from the base itself, they could have come up with an alternative to not having millions of troops or warships.
[/quote]

Oh brother...you're not thinking this trough.

So you're afraid some "magic tech" will suddenly make Cerberus be ableto take over the galaxy? yet you have absolutely no idea how.

Here's the deal. It's space. There is no substitue for having an armada.
He who wohld space, hold the planet. Cerberus doesn't have an armada. It CANNOT have it, since mantaining it requires a ludicorous amounts of funds and resources.. Heck, the alliance - which has all the resources and manpower of humanity - struggles with the navy it has, and you think that Cerberus, a small black ops organization, can somehow top that?

Furthermore, to hold something you need ot have your pople on the scene. If Cerberus wants to take over..let's say Tuchanak, it would have to occupy it. With what troops? Where' the millions who's loyally follwo Cerberus and enlist in their army? The millions needed back home to produce good and supply that army? Now multiply that by the number of populated planets in the universe.
The only way Cerberus could possibly take over the galaxy is if all of humanity stands behind them (even then is unlikely)...but at that point Cerberus really would be humanity, so the point is moot.

Indoctrination? Sovereign had indoctrination. Didn't help him much. What we do know about indoctrination is that it has limited range and it takes time. This alone greatly reduces it's effectiveness. Not to mention that if indoctrination was really that powerfull, why didn't Sovereign just indoctrinate the world leaders, have them disband their navies nd be done with it?
Indoctrination isn't the "I win" card.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
At least you recognize how you've behaved when it comes to the subject.

I don't respect flat out lies that are based on the opposite side's hard-on for the character in question and things that aren't even mentioned in the game, and are completely made up for the sake of convenience, I admit that.

You're full of BS and you prove it right here. I don't even like TIM.
But that thought betrays your own mental process. You're driven by hate of TIM, not reason.

Again, if you got real arguments, post them. You ran out of arguments, and that is why you ar reduced to jsut trolling.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Alrighty then..Let me go over this then.

nicksmi56 wrote...

Lives* stupid phone. Except the lazarus project which was only saved by SHEPARD.
1. I really hate The Illusive Man.

No comment on that one.

2. Cerberus can't pull off a decent experiment to save their lives


EDI? Normandy 2? Lazarus? And technicly, the Reaper IFF and overlord are a success.

3. Everyone's like "Oh i need all the allies i can get." What I don't need is allies who stab me in the back at the first chance. Don't forget he's almost killed you numerous times.

He sent you into danger. Becasue you're a soldier. Soldiers get sent to danger. He didn't backstab you - he took a calculater risk. He witheld information from you to increase the chances of mission sucess...to save humanity. You really think that's unreasonable?

4. IT'S THE REAPERS' TECH. They've been using it forever which means they're probably better at it than Y-O-U. If I made a weapon and you got a replica and tried to use it on me, I would still win. Why? Cause it's MY weapon. I know how to use it and i ALSO know what weaknesses it has.

Yes, they're better than you. But their guns are better than yours. And pack a bigger punch. You think having a higher caliber gun is useless, because the enemy has even higher caliber one? That makes no sense whatsoever.
You want to close that gap between you. The better your weapons, the better your chances of survival.

5. I see giving up the base at a "**** we can't win any other way!" thing. Which i don't believe

There may be other ways to win. But do you know what they are? If there are clear alternatives or better ways, the ndestroying the base would make more sense. But since you lack those alternatives...
And one must also consider the price of wining in another way.

6. The LAST thing we need is to alienate the rest of the galaxy because we put too much faith in TIM.

The last thing you need is extinction. The Council already knows you're working with cerberus anyway, and you're working to save the galaxy.

And 7. When you have a fire in your home, do you solve the problem by starting another fire in another part of your home? No. Cause that makes it WORSE. Why do you all assume cerberus will wait til AFTER the reaper threat to stab us in the back? If they're not so generous, not only do you have another enemy, you have another MORE POWERFUL enemy.

Cerberus, even with reaper tech, it not a serious threat, as they are simply too small. The Rachni are a bigger threat. Or the Krogan. Or the Geth. After all, you have no guarante THEY wott' backstab you.
The blazing inferno that is the reaper is a certnaty. The small flame that is Cerberus is a possibility. But that small flame can possibly stop the inferno.


Oh and 8. Using the base is like spitting on the graves of the humans that died which i find to be morally wrong.

Why? I don't undersant why it's moraly wrong. For what reason? Becasue they died there?
So you want their deths to be for nothing? You can't bring them back, you can't help them. But the data in the base could help save others.
It would be immoral NOT to use that data.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dthao31r wrote...

And yes, destroying the base is the right thing to do.  Just look at all the facts.  The reapers themselves want us to use their technology so we'd be dependant upon them.  This idea is found in other Sci-Fi stories as well.  Look at the TV-series V(Visitors).  The Visitors appear and act like friends sharing their technology with the humans.  But in reality they want the humans to be dependant on their technology, so they can be controlled later.  The reapers want the same thing.

My Shepard knows this.  Not because she's riding on a high horse but because she was exposed to the knowledge of the Protheans via the beacons.  She knows for a fact that relying on Reaper technology will be their downfall. 

Not exactly true. Youre taking that statement too literaly and too broad.

They wants us to be dependant on the Mass Relays and the Citadel. Without our own way of FTL travel, they can shut down the relay network and isolate us - like they did to the protheans.

That does not apply to the tech gained directly from a reaper corpse, since that is the best tech reapers have and tech of a different kind. Knowledge is power. Knowing how the reaper technolgoy works is cruical - even if you don't end up using that tech.

Take a look at EDI and thanix cannons - the repers certanly didn't plan for us to have those. Yet they came from repear research.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're full of BS and you prove it right here. I don't even like TIM.
But that thought betrays your own mental process. You're driven by hate of TIM, not reason.

Again, if you got real arguments, post them. You ran out of arguments, and that is why you ar reduced to jsut trolling.

No, I'm just not arguing, because I see nothing good to argue against.

P.S. Assumptions and personal opinions aren't such great arguments.

And I've already said what I've wanted to say. The way everyone else's arguing, is like the unmovable wall against the unstoppable force. It gets absolutely nowhere.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 28 juillet 2011 - 11:14 .

[WidowMaker9394]

It was a symbolic gesture for me, humiliating the Reapers by annihilating their only known stronghold in the Milky Way.

And nothing good ever comes from the Reapers.

[nicksmi56]

@Soronnar oh sorry. Didnt read every page of the thread. How exactly were these arguements destroyed?

[Lotion Soronarr]

nicksmi56 wrote...

@Soronnar oh sorry. Didnt read every page of the thread. How exactly were these arguements destroyed?

Something is wonky wiht these forums..please look a few posts up.

[nicksmi56]

@Soronnar Meh I've got a busy day so I can't waste time looking through a bunch of pages. Anyway, I just put out what i was thinking at the moment when I chose to destroy the base. Whether everyone agrees or not doesn't matter to me. I didn't come to start yet another arguement. Just putting my opinions out there. Good day to you, sir

[Lotion Soronarr]

Literaly 6-7 posts above. no need to sift trough 60 pages. It's on this page.....

[Comsky159]

Explosions are awesome, the reapers intrinsically represent the traditional evil (love my binaries), it constitutes a kind of burial ritual for all the people who suffered there, the illusive man is an arrogant, ruthless (and most dangerously of all intelligent) fool and explosions are awesome. More than enough for me.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have all the evidence for that. Plus basic logic.

An interesting thing about logic is that everyone seems to believe they're behaving logically regardless of whether they are or not.

As a general guideline, if you're unable to concede that there are rational and intelligent reasons to see the situation differently than you do your logic is faulty.

Also, that you don't seem to have convinced anyone suggests your methods of debate aren't particularly competent either.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alrighty then..Let me go over this then.

nicksmi56 wrote...

Lives* stupid phone. Except the lazarus project which was only saved by SHEPARD.
1. I really hate The Illusive Man.

No comment on that one.

2. Cerberus can't pull off a decent experiment to save their lives


EDI? Normandy 2? Lazarus? And technicly, the Reaper IFF and overlord are a success.

I would hardly call having the whole research team killed as a "success", since you're going to run out of scientists if you keep that up, and they don't grow on trees. And don't get me started on how much of an intellectual insult Overlord is.

3. Everyone's like "Oh i need all the allies i can get." What I don't need is allies who stab me in the back at the first chance. Don't forget he's almost killed you numerous times.

He sent you into danger. Becasue you're a soldier. Soldiers get sent to danger. He didn't backstab you - he took a calculater risk. He witheld information from you to increase the chances of mission sucess...to save humanity. You really think that's unreasonable?

I really fail to see what lying about the origin of the distress call and the trap would accomplish in any way, so yes. It was stupid. And I won't accept: "Oh, but TIM said---", because I have no reason to trust that twerp.

4. IT'S THE REAPERS' TECH. They've been using it forever which means they're probably better at it than Y-O-U. If I made a weapon and you got a replica and tried to use it on me, I would still win. Why? Cause it's MY weapon. I know how to use it and i ALSO know what weaknesses it has.

Yes, they're better than you. But their guns are better than yours. And pack a bigger punch. You think having a higher caliber gun is useless, because the enemy has even higher caliber one? That makes no sense whatsoever.
You want to close that gap between you. The better your weapons, the better your chances of survival. 

That is, if there isn't a faction that's keeping the weapon for themselves.

5. I see giving up the base at a "**** we can't win any other way!" thing. Which i don't believe

There may be other ways to win. But do you know what they are? If there are clear alternatives or better ways, the ndestroying the base would make more sense. But since you lack those alternatives...
And one must also consider the price of wining in another way.

There's no clear way to know that you're going win, even with the base intact.

6. The LAST thing we need is to alienate the rest of the galaxy because we put too much faith in TIM.

The last thing you need is extinction. The Council already knows you're working with cerberus anyway, and you're working to save the galaxy.

I really doubt the base has some information that can turn the tide of a interstellar war. There's no logical reason why Harbinger would store something like a schematic over the Reapers' designs on a terminal inside the base.

And 7. When you have a fire in your home, do you solve the problem by starting another fire in another part of your home? No. Cause that makes it WORSE. Why do you all assume cerberus will wait til AFTER the reaper threat to stab us in the back? If they're not so generous, not only do you have another enemy, you have another MORE POWERFUL enemy.

Cerberus, even with reaper tech, it not a serious threat, as they are simply too small. The Rachni are a bigger threat. Or the Krogan. Or the Geth. After all, you have no guarante THEY wott' backstab you.
The blazing inferno that is the reaper is a certnaty. The small flame that is Cerberus is a possibility. But that small flame can possibly stop the inferno.

If they're not a threat to us, then why would they be a threat to the Reapers?


Oh and 8. Using the base is like spitting on the graves of the humans that died which i find to be morally wrong.

Why? I don't undersant why it's moraly wrong. For what reason? Becasue they died there?
So you want their deths to be for nothing? You can't bring them back, you can't help them. But the data in the base could help save others.
It would be immoral NOT to use that data.

I don't really care who or how many died there, so no opinion. 

[nicksmi56]

Ehh both sides of the arguement are right in some respects. Soronnar is right in the respect that the collector base IS the best bet on beating the reapers. However the others are right that there's no GUARANTEE that it'll work. Soronnar just chose to grasp the only straw available at the time so I can understand why. The fact remains that we just know too little about the reapers and what they have up their sleeve to make a "logical" decision. Personally I believe the "fight fire with fire" philosopy almost never works. And I believe Shepard's speech. We may not be able to win without it. We may be doomed. But I'd rather die knowing we tried out best than live based on being afraid to do without it. All I know is in my ME3, whether I live or die, I'll fight til the end.

[nicksmi56]

And why is everyone against every other species?

[Someone With Mass]

nicksmi56 wrote...

And why is everyone against every other species?

Here's why.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have all the evidence for that. Plus basic logic.

An interesting thing about logic is that everyone seems to believe they're behaving logically regardless of whether they are or not.

As a general guideline, if you're unable to concede that there are rational and intelligent reasons to see the situation differently than you do your logic is faulty.

Also, that you don't seem to have convinced anyone suggests your methods of debate aren't particularly competent either.

So..if you fail to convince me, does that mean your methods of debate are faulty?

Meh..rubbish.
Sometimes you just can't convince people, not even with all the evidence in the world. They don't want to be convinced, and they don't want to listen. Either way, mroe than enough people agree wiht me, so I'm nto wirred at all.

And you are wrong - I do see other people have reasons for thinking differenlty. It's jut that the reasons are flawed.

[nicksmi56]

Well I don't share the same "the whole galaxy will turn on us" opinion. Allies like Garrus, Wrex, Liara, Mordin (R.I.P) and Thane have removed my once strong dislike for other species