1939 réponses à ce sujet

[nicksmi56]

So, you're the one who says we can't beat the reapers. Tell me, if we do help them save the galaxy, why would they immediately devote themselves to killing us off?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Someone With Mass wrote...

EDI? Normandy 2? Lazarus? And technicly, the Reaper IFF and overlord are a success.

I would hardly call having the whole research team killed as a "success", since you're going to run out of scientists if you keep that up, and they don't grow on trees. And don't get me started on how much of an intellectual insult Overlord is.[/quote]

The goal is what matters. Goal was to find a way to influence Geth and to get the reaper IFF. Both goes were reached.
Hence, sucess.


[quote]
3. Everyone's like "Oh i need all the allies i can get." What I don't need is allies who stab me in the back at the first chance. Don't forget he's almost killed you numerous times.

He sent you into danger. Becasue you're a soldier. Soldiers get sent to danger. He didn't backstab you - he took a calculater risk. He witheld information from you to increase the chances of mission sucess...to save humanity. You really think that's unreasonable?

I really fail to see what lying about the origin of the distress call and the trap would accomplish in any way, so yes. It was stupid. And I won't accept: "Oh, but TIM said---", because I have no reason to trust that twerp.[/quote]

What? You didn't bother to read the dialogue?

And there is a reason. It has to be believable. The Collectors might pull out if they suspect you're on to them. Sheppard and his team are awesome eonugh that they can fight their way out of that trap.
No one argues here that it was a douchy move, and possibly even unecessary. But it's not betrayl, sice TIM was constatnly working for the benefit of humanity, not the Collectors.

and if you have no reason to trust TIM. What reason you haveto trust anyone else then? Hacket? Anderson? Garrus? Tali? etc.. I can easily dismiss anything TEHY say on the account that"I don't trust them".
so thats not really an argument, more a blanket slate for ignoring info that you don't like, cause you don't like the source.


[quote]
4. IT'S THE REAPERS' TECH. They've been using it forever which means they're probably better at it than Y-O-U. If I made a weapon and you got a replica and tried to use it on me, I would still win. Why? Cause it's MY weapon. I know how to use it and i ALSO know what weaknesses it has.

Yes, they're better than you. But their guns are better than yours. And pack a bigger punch. You think having a higher caliber gun is useless, because the enemy has even higher caliber one? That makes no sense whatsoever.
You want to close that gap between you. The better your weapons, the better your chances of survival. 
[/quote]

That is, if there isn't a faction that's keeping the weapon for themselves.[/quote]

Which would be kinda counter-productive to the whole strengthening of mankind, and counter to what they have been doing so far. Cerberus was leaking tech to the Alliance and working for the benefit of humanity since day 1.


[quote]
5. I see giving up the base at a "**** we can't win any other way!" thing. Which i don't believe

There may be other ways to win. But do you know what they are? If there are clear alternatives or better ways, the ndestroying the base would make more sense. But since you lack those alternatives...
And one must also consider the price of wining in another way.

There's no clear way to know that you're going win, even with the base intact.
[/quote]

Nope, but it does up your chances considerably. It is a way, a plan.
What's the alternative?


[quote]
6. The LAST thing we need is to alienate the rest of the galaxy because we put too much faith in TIM.

The last thing you need is extinction. The Council already knows you're working with cerberus anyway, and you're working to save the galaxy.

I really doubt the base has some information that can turn the tide of a interstellar war. There's no logical reason why Harbinger would store something like a schematic over the Reapers' designs on a terminal inside the base.[/quote]

There's a almsot intact reaper corpse in there. And the base was used to contrust a reaper. Yeah, you're gonna find something usefull in there. Probably not in a terminal, but by examining hte equipment used to construct it and hte corpse.


[quote]
And 7. When you have a fire in your home, do you solve the problem by starting another fire in another part of your home? No. Cause that makes it WORSE. Why do you all assume cerberus will wait til AFTER the reaper threat to stab us in the back? If they're not so generous, not only do you have another enemy, you have another MORE POWERFUL enemy.

Cerberus, even with reaper tech, it not a serious threat, as they are simply too small. The Rachni are a bigger threat. Or the Krogan. Or the Geth. After all, you have no guarante THEY wott' backstab you.
The blazing inferno that is the reaper is a certnaty. The small flame that is Cerberus is a possibility. But that small flame can possibly stop the inferno.

If they're not a threat to us, then why would they be a threat to the Reapers?[/quote]

Because of what they can give to us.
super ship shielding, enhanced capital ship weapons - those are ofg little use ot Cerberus, as it doesn't have it's own armada. If Cerb gives it to the other races, they can use that knowledge to enhance their ship, thus standing better chances agaisnt the reapers.

The value of Cerberus is NOT as a direct fighting unit agaisnt the repears (it's too small for that) - it is as a research/info/technology supplier.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:07 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What? You didn't bother to read the dialogue?

And there is a reason. It has to be believable. The Collectors might pull out if they suspect you're on to them. Sheppard and his team are awesome eonugh that they can fight their way out of that trap.
No one argues here that it was a douchy move, and possibly even unecessary. But it's not betrayl, sice TIM was constatnly working for the benefit of humanity, not the Collectors.

and if you have no reason to trust TIM. What reason you haveto trust anyone else then? Hacket? Anderson? Garrus? Tali? etc.. I can easily dismiss anything TEHY say on the account that"I don't trust them".
so thats not really an argument, more a blanket slate for ignoring info that you don't like, cause you don't like the source.

I don't care about what you think about other characters. We're not talking about them, and they don't have the same organization that TIM has.

And how can the Collectors know that you're onto them? Are they telephatic or something? Just keep a low profile and your mouth shut, and it'll be fine.

4. IT'S THE REAPERS' TECH. They've been using it forever which means they're probably better at it than Y-O-U. If I made a weapon and you got a replica and tried to use it on me, I would still win. Why? Cause it's MY weapon. I know how to use it and i ALSO know what weaknesses it has.

Yes, they're better than you. But their guns are better than yours. And pack a bigger punch. You think having a higher caliber gun is useless, because the enemy has even higher caliber one? That makes no sense whatsoever.
You want to close that gap between you. The better your weapons, the better your chances of survival. 


That is, if there isn't a faction that's keeping the weapon for themselves.

Which would be kinda counter-productive to the whole strengthening of mankind, and counter to what they have been doing so far. Cerberus was leaking tech to the Alliance and working for the benefit of humanity since day 1.

Shepard doesn't know that.

And considering that Cerberus thinks the Alliance is just a liability, I wouldn't count on them trying their best to benefit mankind.

5. I see giving up the base at a "**** we can't win any other way!" thing. Which i don't believe

There may be other ways to win. But do you know what they are? If there are clear alternatives or better ways, the ndestroying the base would make more sense. But since you lack those alternatives...
And one must also consider the price of wining in another way.

There's no clear way to know that you're going win, even with the base intact.

Nope, but it does up your chances considerably. It is a way, a plan.
What's the alternative?

Again. You don't know that it will. 

6. The LAST thing we need is to alienate the rest of the galaxy because we put too much faith in TIM.

The last thing you need is extinction. The Council already knows you're working with cerberus anyway, and you're working to save the galaxy.

I really doubt the base has some information that can turn the tide of a interstellar war. There's no logical reason why Harbinger would store something like a schematic over the Reapers' designs on a terminal inside the base.

There's a almsot intact reaper corpse in there. And the base was used to contrust a reaper. Yeah, you're gonna find something usefull in there. Probably not in a terminal, but by examining hte equipment used to construct it and hte corpse.

A incomplete Reaper that was far from completion, yes.

And 7. When you have a fire in your home, do you solve the problem by starting another fire in another part of your home? No. Cause that makes it WORSE. Why do you all assume cerberus will wait til AFTER the reaper threat to stab us in the back? If they're not so generous, not only do you have another enemy, you have another MORE POWERFUL enemy.

Cerberus, even with reaper tech, it not a serious threat, as they are simply too small. The Rachni are a bigger threat. Or the Krogan. Or the Geth. After all, you have no guarante THEY wott' backstab you.
The blazing inferno that is the reaper is a certnaty. The small flame that is Cerberus is a possibility. But that small flame can possibly stop the inferno.

If they're not a threat to us, then why would they be a threat to the Reapers?

Because of what they can give to us.
super ship shielding, enhanced capital ship weapons - those are ofg little use ot Cerberus, as it doesn't have it's own armada. If Cerb gives it to the other races, they can use that knowledge to enhance their ship, thus standing better chances agaisnt the reapers.

The value of Cerberus is NOT as a direct fighting unit agaisnt the repears (it's too small for that) - it is as a research/info/technology supplier.

They won't give other races technology that gives them an edge over Cerberus. That, goes against what they're doing.

They won't share technology that's currently giving them the upper hand against everything out there. Sure, they might give something to the Alliance, but they will keep the good stuff for themselves. As they've always done.

So then there's really no point.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:47 .

[nicksmi56]

Seems like some people put a LOT of faith in Cerberus helping out with the tech, which will most likely NOT happen. And don't toss out the "betterment of mankind". We all know that's not what's really going through TIM's head

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Someone With Mass wrote...
I don't care about what you think about other characters. We're not talking about them, and they don't have the same organization that TIM has.[/quote]

You don't care, but it's the same argument.
They can turn against you as well. Everyone can stab you in the back...some even worse than Cerberus.
Like Example, the Rachnii queen. All you have is her word.


[quote][quote]
That is, if there isn't a faction that's keeping the weapon for themselves.

Which would be kinda counter-productive to the whole strengthening of mankind, and counter to what they have been doing so far. Cerberus was leaking tech to the Alliance and working for the benefit of humanity since day 1.
[/quote]
Shepard doesn't know that.

And considering that Cerberus thinks the Alliance is just a liability, I wouldn't count on them trying their best to benefit mankind.[/quote]

He does. He knows that Cerberus stands for, what they have been doing.
And no, Cerberus doesn't consider the Alliance a liability, but even if it did, how does that prevent them for acting in the interest of humanity?


[quote][quote]
There's no clear way to know that you're going win, even with the base intact.


Nope, but it does up your chances considerably. It is a way, a plan.
What's the alternative?
[/quote]

Again. You don't know that it will.[/quote]

Technology evens up the playing board. Getting better tech increses odds of survial. That is a given.
There's no 100% guarantee that usefull tech witll come out of that base in time, but it wil come.


[quote]
I really doubt the base has some information that can turn the tide of a interstellar war. There's no logical reason why Harbinger would store something like a schematic over the Reapers' designs on a terminal inside the base.

There's a almsot intact reaper corpse in there. And the base was used to contrust a reaper. Yeah, you're gonna find something usefull in there. Probably not in a terminal, but by examining the equipment used to construct it and hte corpse.
[/quote]

A incomplete Reaper that was far from completion, yes.[/quote]

But still a repaer with advanced technology in it. Still a base with equipemnt used to build it.



[quote][quote]

Cerberus, even with reaper tech, it not a serious threat, as they are simply too small. The Rachni are a bigger threat. Or the Krogan. Or the Geth. After all, you have no guarante THEY wott' backstab you.
The blazing inferno that is the reaper is a certnaty. The small flame that is Cerberus is a possibility. But that small flame can possibly stop the inferno.


If they're not a threat to us, then why would they be a threat to the Reapers?


Because of what they can give to us.
super ship shielding, enhanced capital ship weapons - those are ofg little use ot Cerberus, as it doesn't have it's own armada. If Cerb gives it to the other races, they can use that knowledge to enhance their ship, thus standing better chances agaisnt the reapers.

The value of Cerberus is NOT as a direct fighting unit agaisnt the repears (it's too small for that) - it is as a research/info/technology supplier.
[/quote]

They won't give other races technology that gives them an edge over Cerberus. That, goes against what they're doing.

They won't share technology that's currently giving them the upper hand against everything out there. Sure, they might give something to the Alliance, but they will keep the good stuff for themselves. As they've always done.

So then there's really no point.
[/quote]


The survival of the human race is at stake here... you reallly think they won't give anything that might be usefull agaisnt the reapers to the Alliance?
Even if TIM would want to keep some stuff for Cerberus (illogical), you think everyone in Cerberus will agree?
People who work at Cerberus generally join because they want to help humanity.
And lastly, if Cerberus doesn't want to share, Shep can take it by force. But for there to be something to share/take, it has to be researched first!

I'd also like to see some proof oh him keeping the best stuff from himself.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

nicksmi56 wrote...

Seems like some people put a LOT of faith in Cerberus helping out with the tech, which will most likely NOT happen. And don't toss out the "betterment of mankind". We all know that's not what's really going through TIM's head.

We do?
How? And from where?

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'd also like to see some proof oh him keeping the best stuff from himself.

Anything that involves Reaper technology.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'd also like to see some proof oh him keeping the best stuff from himself.

Anything that involves Reaper technology.

What? The un-finished experiments?
How do you know he didnt leak stuff to the Aliance? Those things cerrtanly wouldn't be public.

[Someone With Mass]

And I don't think they'll share their oh, so remarkable discoveries with an alien race.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What? The un-finished experiments?
How do you know he didnt leak stuff to the Aliance? Those things cerrtanly wouldn't be public.

How about the technology he used to revive Shepard from the dead? That would be some extremely helpful technology in the hands of the public.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:28 .

[CroGamer002]

Question.

How many Paragons feel cheated?

[Someone With Mass]

Mesina2 wrote...

Question.

How many Paragons feel cheated?

Knowing that I didn't give a potential WMD to a bunch of suicidal idiots?

Not much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What? The un-finished experiments?
How do you know he didnt leak stuff to the Aliance? Those things cerrtanly wouldn't be public.

How about the technology he used to revive Shepard from the dead? That would be extremely helpful technology in the hands of the public.

How do you know he didn't share it?

I mean, the experiment ended with a bang right at the begining of the game. One of the chief scientists is dead, Mirana is with you on a mission.
I odnt' see her having time to document andwrite an essay atm. But who knows, maybe she did.

Do note the cost of rebuilding Sheppard. That technology would be usefull, but hardly to the public.
It would probably be used on alliance brass and peopel with lots of $$$ only.

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I don't think they'll share their oh, so remarkable discoveries with an alien race.

Who? TIM? Maybe not. Hard to tell.
Keeping that tech is useless if you and humanity end up dead.

What we do know is that there are people in Cerberus who would share.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Do note the cost of rebuilding Sheppard. That technology would be usefull, but hardly to the public.
It would probably be used on alliance brass and peopel with ltos of $$$ only.

Yeah. Sure. Never mind that it can also be used in other cases (like when it restores dead tissue) and cost less.

[jedierick]

whoops

Modifié par jedierick, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:44 .

[Someone With Mass]

By the way, why should I believe his word about benefiting mankind when he constantly spits out lies? If they wanted to give such huge amounts of technology and information to the Alliance, then just do it, and let them do the research. Cut out the annoying middleman.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

"lalalala cant hear you."

[nicksmi56]

@ Soronnar His actions. Killing off millions of humans isn't really the best way to help humanity. Plus, project overlord. And the novels. Also, he kinda reminds me of bertrand from infamous 2. And he spits out lies constantly. It's extremely obvious he has an ulterior motive. Seriously? You BELIEVE him? Cause that could be the problem right there

[Aumata]

I kept the base for the advantage's. If Cerberus betrays me, I keep the base, if they don't I have an ally, either way I keep the base and it's tech. How can you not keep the base, what an ally is pissed that I sided with Cerberus, that tech is a bargaining chip right there. I see it as a win-win situation for me anyway. Though lucky me I have multiple playthroughs so I have saves that destroy the base.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Do note the cost of rebuilding Sheppard. That technology would be usefull, but hardly to the public.
It would probably be used on alliance brass and peopel with ltos of $$$ only.

Yeah. Sure. Never mind that it can also be used in other cases (like when it restores dead tissue) and cost less.

Reviving Shep cost 4 billion or more.
You thing any regular Joe could afford that?

By the way, why should I believe his word about benefiting mankind when
he constantly spits out lies? If they wanted to give such huge amounts
of technology and information to the Alliance, then just do it, and let
them do the research. Cut out the annoying middleman.

TIM doesn't belive the Alliance will research hard enough. Didn't you see how he pushes forward?

Not to say he doesn't give some info/tech to the Alliance directly. You have no way of knowing he doesn't.

What we do know is what Cerberus goals are, and roughly the size of the organization. And that is has many rich people, and even poeple in the military backing them.
Which is quite interesting when you think about it. It is possible the Alliance knows much more then it lets on, but doesn't do anything about Cerberus because it's so usefull. I again refer you to Admiral Hackett  and his thought on Cerberus in Arrival.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Spies,lots of spies.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TIM doesn't belive the Alliance will research hard enough. Didn't you see how he pushes forward?

Not to say he doesn't give some info/tech to the Alliance directly. You have no way of knowing he doesn't.

What we do know is what Cerberus goals are, and roughly the size of the organization. And that is has many rich people, and even poeple in the military backing them.
Which is quite interesting when you think about it. It is possible the Alliance knows much more then it lets on, but doesn't do anything about Cerberus because it's so usefull. I again refer you to Admiral Hackett and his thought on Cerberus in Arrival.

Exactly! Which is why I think his little charade game is stupid!

And when will people get it through their thick skulls that Hackett isn't the Alliance as a whole?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TIM doesn't belive the Alliance will research hard enough. Didn't you see how he pushes forward?

Not to say he doesn't give some info/tech to the Alliance directly. You have no way of knowing he doesn't.

What we do know is what Cerberus goals are, and roughly the size of the organization. And that is has many rich people, and even poeple in the military backing them.
Which is quite interesting when you think about it. It is possible the Alliance knows much more then it lets on, but doesn't do anything about Cerberus because it's so usefull. I again refer you to Admiral Hackett and his thought on Cerberus in Arrival.

Exactly! Which is why I think his little charade game is stupid!

And when will people get it through their thick skulls that Hackett isn't the Alliance as a whole?

Is TIM Cerberus as a whole?
Is Wrex a krogan as a whole? Legion Geth as a whole?

My point about Hackett, is that he, as a Alliance admiral loyal to the Alliance, confirms Cerberus is doing something (for the galaxy).

And my poitn about TIM is that we do not how much much tech Cerberus gives directly to the alliance, and how much indirectly.

Not that it matters much - you can always take it from him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

nicksmi56 wrote...

@ Soronnar His actions. Killing off millions of humans isn't really the best way to help humanity. Plus, project overlord. And the novels. Also, he kinda reminds me of bertrand from infamous 2. And he spits out lies constantly. It's extremely obvious he has an ulterior motive. Seriously? You BELIEVE him? Cause that could be the problem right there

Which millions did he kill pls?

And agian - what proof? You got no proof he has alterior motives whatsoever, you got only your own hunch.
If anything, TIM is consistent.
He'd do anything to ensure the survival of humanity - lie, cheat, steal, kill. Trought whole of ME2 he has consistently worked against the repaers and collectors.