1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

CuseGirl wrote...

Lotion--

look, I usually blow up the base, I kept it in one of my playthrus. But the one thing I'm sure of is Shep will have a way to "win" whether he kept it or not. You contest that the only way to win is to keep the base and I totally disagree. Find, keep the base, its cool. The risk of indoctrination or even the base being taken BACK by the Reapers is no big deal.

But see, that's the thing. You're sure Sheppard will find a way. That's ok. You're making that decision as a player.

Now make that decision as a random marine in shepaprds shoes. He's got no plot/character shield. No destinty. No save/loads. He's not in a game, the reapers are real. There's no morality wheel, no bonuses and no guaranteed rewards/penalties.
Would you then really realy on "eh, something will come up even if I blow the base up"?


As for the uinderlined. I agree.
If the Reapers come, the base will not be an issue, as you'll have a thousand sentient super-warshups to worry about. A stationary base who's location you know and can blow up before the reapers arrive is of no concern.
Indoctrination? Limited scope, range and utility. Again, if Cerberus starts acting up, blow the base up. Not a big deal.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So you'll start studying the reapers AFTER they arrive? Because you'd have to kill one to study it.

If only we already had a mostly in-tact reaper corpse...like in the base. Oh..and a brand new one at that!

And one that wasn't blown to pieces by capital-grade mass drivers and who's part are mostly gone?

What part of INCOMPLETE are you unable to comprehend? 
[/b][b]
It didn't even have a shell yet. Hell, Shepard could defeat it on foot with small arms fire.

And? Its still has technology in it.
Unless of course, your uncapable of recognizing anything that isn't a shooty thingy or armor as technology.

What? Is improved conduit technology not a technology? Super-batteries? Transistors? superconductors? You know...all those little thing in the background that make shiny shooty thing possible in the first place?


That's all without taking into consideration that it was being built inside that base.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

But Shepard knows there are more Prothean ruins to be found(from firewalker,SB,Liara,and exploration),and that spending the resources and manpower on that could be a better decision then risking lives on the CB.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And? Its still has technology in it.
Unless of course, your uncapable of recognizing anything that isn't a shooty thingy or armor as technology.

What? Is improved conduit technology not a technology? Super-batteries? Transistors? superconductors? You know...all those little thing in the background that make shiny shooty thing possible in the first place?


That's all without taking into consideration that it was being built inside that base.

Whatever it is, it exploded.

And I don't think it's that much of a stretch of the mind to understand that a full-grown Reaper is better any day than some Reaper fetus.

And assuming that they have the schematics on a screen in the base that says with big, bright letters: "HOW TO BUILD A REAPER" is just stupid.

Not to mention that EDI already made a thorough scan of the place.

Also, if the destroyed fetus is so easily salvageable, then the base is that too, by that logic.

[pmac_tk421]

It was to prevent the illusive man from getting more reaper tech.

[alperez]

1. We have evidence that exploring reaper tech, artifacts, derelict ships etc. that this can lead to really bad consequences.

2. We have an organisation Cerberus that have been shown to disregard the negative consequences because the potential benefit far outweighs any consequences in their opinion.

We're then faced with the choice to either completely remove any potential negative consequence by destroying the base or aim for the potential postive consequences and hand it over to cerberus.

If what we're dealing with was just normal tech and had no potential to completely bite us in the ass or if we had an option to control the access to that tech ourselves, then most people's decision could have been different.

But faced with a black and white choice, a choice where if you know the first 2 things to be true or believe them to be, then that informs your choice and is why you decide to destroy the base.

Lotion disregards both of these in his choice and instead creates option 3.


3. danger of working with reaper tech is less than potential gain and danger of cerberus misusing or fouling it up is a price worth paying.

Both of these arguments are equally logical, however Lotion rather than accept this, instead believes only in his own argument and refuses any suggestion whatsoever that he could be wrong.

When anyone attempts to point out why he could be or how he could be, instead of accepting a different viewpoint he turns into Charlie Sheen and believes he is winning.

He tears down arguments in a single bound while drinking Tigers Blood and woe betide the person who argues with the Warlock.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion-"I am Truth, voice of the base keepers!"
Alperez-"And so...you must be silenced!"

[alperez]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion-"I am Truth, voice of the base keepers!"
Alperez-"And so...you must be silenced!"

See thats the whole point, i have no issue whatsoever with why people may have kept the base, it makes sense and i can understand and accept their reasoning for doing so.

So why is it so difficult for certain basekeepers to accept any view that disagrees with their own.

Rather than just argue that they made the choice because they felt it was right and this is the reasoning behind that choice, instead they argue that anyone who didn't make the same choice as them is wrong and they are right.

They can't accept there may be moral reasons, they can't accept logical reasons or even reasons that are based on the type of Shepard that your trying to portray, instead its i'm right, i'm right and i'm tearing down your arguments by my logistcal superiority (ok so that last bit was just a dig at lotion lol).

Modifié par alperez, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:55 .

[alperez]

HomelessGal wrote...

I dunno, broadly characterizing the entire opposing side of the argument doesn't seem much different than what Lotion does.

Your right and i apologise, i actually missed out the word "certain" in my post which i've amended, thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

But Shepard knows there are more Prothean ruins to be found(from firewalker,SB,Liara,and exploration),and that spending the resources and manpower on that could be a better decision then risking lives on the CB.

Reaper tech >>>> Protean tech. After all, protheans were reaped.
Not to say that protean ruins wouldn't be usefull to. Going after every advantage and lead is the smart thig to do.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And? Its still has technology in it.
Unless of course, your uncapable of recognizing anything that isn't a shooty thingy or armor as technology.

What?
Is improved conduit technology not a technology? Super-batteries?
Transistors? superconductors? You know...all those little thing in the
background that make shiny shooty thing possible in the first place?


That's all without taking into consideration that it was being built inside that base.

Whatever it is, it exploded.

And
I don't think it's that much of a stretch of the mind to understand
that a full-grown Reaper is better any day than some Reaper fetus.

And
assuming that they have the schematics on a screen in the base that
says with big, bright letters: "HOW TO BUILD A REAPER" is just stupid.

Not to mention that EDI already made a thorough scan of the place.

Also, if the destroyed fetus is so easily salvageable, then the base is that too, by that logic.

1) Nope.. It fell to the bottom of the base in pretty much one piece. Sheppard hit it in the eye. Sovereign was the one blown to pieces.

2) It possibly is, but there aren't any full-grown reapres available at the time. And the human-reaper is stil reaper tech.
Size is not everything mind you. A battleship is bigger than a B2 bomber. Does them mean the battleship holds more modern tech in it?

3) Who sez anything about schematics? But the machinery to build it? Spare parts? Other parts that are to be tacked on alter?

4) Ahh yes.. The land of "magic scans" that somehow give you all the info in the world.
Scans are good and usefull, but having tech that oyu cna take aprt and study is better.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Here's the thing about Prothean ruins,they have pretty much been universally beneficial,all nthe collectors and TIM have done for me is get me shot.

Also   Scans in good hands>tech in bad hands

Also give up on the whole "My opinion is fact" thing

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 28 juillet 2011 - 10:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

1. We have evidence that exploring reaper tech, artifacts, derelict ships etc. that this can lead to really bad consequences.

2. We have an organisation Cerberus that have been shown to disregard the negative consequences because the potential benefit far outweighs any consequences in their opinion.

We're then faced with the choice to either completely remove any potential negative consequence by destroying the base or aim for the potential postive consequences and hand it over to cerberus.

If what we're dealing with was just normal tech and had no potential to completely bite us in the ass or if we had an option to control the access to that tech ourselves, then most people's decision could have been different.

But faced with a black and white choice, a choice where if you know the first 2 things to be true or believe them to be, then that informs your choice and is why you decide to destroy the base.

1) CAN lead to bad consequences. But thing is - you know it. You know where the base is. Cerberus screwup can tehrefore be predicted and contained/solved rahter easily.

2) They don't disregard negative consequences as much as push forward despite them.

Also,everything has the potential to bite you in the ass.

Lotion disregards both of these in his choice and instead creates option 3.


3. danger of working with reaper tech is less than potential gain and danger of cerberus misusing or fouling it up is a price worth paying.

I don't disregard anything.
Unless you missed it yourself, they are BOTH covered in choice 3, by your own words.

In fact, it is you who disregard everything but the two points above.

I alredy explained before why the danger isn't as great. Several time. I proven it in fact, that the potential benefits outstrip the potential negatives.
Practiciality and reason go out the window. Mistrust of Cerberus is the prime motivator here. Not logic.

Both of these arguments are equally logical, however Lotion rather than accept this, instead believes only in his own argument and refuses any suggestion whatsoever that he could be wrong.

When anyone attempts to point out why he could be or how he could be, instead of accepting a different viewpoint he turns into Charlie Sheen and believes he is winning.

He tears down arguments in a single bound while drinking Tigers Blood and woe betide the person who argues with the Warlock.

Insults will get you nowhere. Good arguments will.

Arguments you don't have b.t.w. Which is why you turn to insults. A demonstration of your impotencein this debate and frustration.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

The way lotion keeps putting it.

Is TIM Lex Luthor?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

lotion,can I get a source to how you can immediately clean up Cerberus' mess? who's to say Shep is too busy to respond to a Cerberus screw up?Oh thats right,BW,not you,not me,not alp,not someone with mass,but BW.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 28 juillet 2011 - 10:48 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) Nope.. It fell to the bottom of the base in pretty much one piece. Sheppard hit it in the eye. Sovereign was the one blown to pieces.

2) It possibly is, but there aren't any full-grown reapres available at the time. And the human-reaper is stil reaper tech.
Size is not everything mind you. A battleship is bigger than a B2 bomber. Does them mean the battleship holds more modern tech in it?

3) Who sez anything about schematics? But the machinery to build it? Spare parts? Other parts that are to be tacked on alter?

4) Ahh yes.. The land of "magic scans" that somehow give you all the info in the world.
Scans are good and usefull, but having tech that oyu cna take aprt and study is better.

1. YES. IT. DID.

2. Stupid comparison is stupid. If it's not fully grown yet, guess what, it more than likely doesn't contain all the tech Sovereign had. If it did, it would have blasted me away in a super-hot stream of molten metal alloys.

3. Spare parts? Really? And the machine that builds it melts down people and transports the goo via giant tubes directly into the fetus.

4. If it works with weapon upgrades, (and it does) it should work to some capacity with the base.

And as I mentioned before, if the fetus can be salvaged after it EXPLODED, then so can the base.

Deal with it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...
So why is it so difficult for certain basekeepers to accept any view that disagrees with their own.

Who sez I don't accept your view?
I just don't accept it as truly logical, as it relies on filtered and incorrect data.

They can't accept there may be moral reasons, they can't accept logical reasons or even reasons that are based on the type of Shepard that your trying to portray, instead its i'm right, i'm right and i'm tearing down your arguments by my logistcal superiority (ok so that last bit was just a dig at lotion lol).

I can accept moral reason..altough ti must be some unconventional morals. If trying to save peoepl is immoriall..I don't know what IS moral then. Really... I like SOMEONE to explain to me why is keepign the base immoral?

I can accept solid logical arguments, but I've seen far too few of those.

I can accept roleplaying arguments..But those are outside of the scope of this discussion. Remember, I'm only talking about if the decission is logical/rational. Not if it fits "My Sheppard #4 who hates cerberus with a passion"
Shepard, depending on how you RP him, an make any decision you see fit or that suits him.

But that still has little impact on the logic of that decision.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 juillet 2011 - 10:58 .

[nicksmi56]

Lotion would make an EXCELLENT Cerberus operative. Heck, if he works at it he can replace TIM. XD

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

The problem is lotion,you only accept logic that furthers only your own point of view.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) Nope.. It fell to the bottom of the base in pretty much one piece. Sheppard hit it in the eye. Sovereign was the one blown to pieces.

2) It possibly is, but there aren't any full-grown reapres available at the time. And the human-reaper is stil reaper tech.
Size is not everything mind you. A battleship is bigger than a B2 bomber. Does them mean the battleship holds more modern tech in it?

3) Who sez anything about schematics? But the machinery to build it? Spare parts? Other parts that are to be tacked on alter?

4) Ahh yes.. The land of "magic scans" that somehow give you all the info in the world.
Scans are good and usefull, but having tech that oyu cna take aprt and study is better.

1. YES. IT. DID.

2. Stupid comparison is stupid. If it's not fully grown yet, guess what, it more than likely doesn't contain all the tech Sovereign had. If it did, it would have blasted me away in a super-hot stream of molten metal alloys.

3. Spare parts? Really? And the machine that builds it melts down people and transports the goo via giant tubes directly into the fetus.

4. If it works with weapon upgrades, (and it does) it should work to some capacity with the base.

And as I mentioned before, if the fetus can be salvaged after it EXPLODED, then so can the base.

Deal with it.

1. Good point. we do see an exposion, but now how big it is. Looks to me like hte head exploded.
Hard to say. Unlikely it could have blown up any worse than sovereign. He WAS hit with nuclear yields after all.

2. Untrue. It wasn't complete, so it probably didn't have the big guns installed yet. Not all technology is guns. Why do I have to repeat this so many times?

3.That's hte biilogical/organic part of it. What about the mechanical/metal bits? Those are built. So yes.

4. Wut? No, it doesn't. Magic scans are a HORRIBLE part of bad sci-fi fluff.. Tehy dont' exist in ME.
If magic scans exist, then the Alliance and the Citadel races wouldnt' have to research Sovereign remains, a single scan of hte sovereign duing hte battle would have been enough to start mass producingthe suckers!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

The problem is lotion,you only accept logic that furthers only your own point of view.

nope. Your'e the one doing it.

I accept all logic.

Me shooting your arguments full of holes is not the same as ignoring them.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

The problem is lotion,you only accept logic that furthers only your own point of view.

nope. Your'e the one doing it.

I accept all logic.

Me shooting your arguments full of holes is not the same as ignoring them.

You haven't shot holes in anyones arguments you simply disregard them because you don't agree

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

lotion,can I get a source to how you can immediately clean up Cerberus' mess? who's to say Shep is too busy to respond to a Cerberus screw up?Oh thats right,BW,not you,not me,not alp,not someone with mass,but BW.

Why don't you read. I reapted this a zillion times before.

Shep knows the location of the base. He has the IFF.  Cerberus is small and doesn't have a navy.

If Cerberus screws up, all Shep has to do is place a call to the Council or Hackett, and you'll have a fleet to blow up the Cerberus base and all the mess on it.

Why do you assume Shep has to do everything himself?

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, I'm not going to answer against such poor arguments. Especially when the answer is pretty much there already.

Assuming that a Reaper fetus has all the technological advancements as a full-grown Reaper is like saying that a newborn baby can walk and run just as good as an adult simply because they both have legs. Catching my drift yet?

And if you want to study the metal alloys, go study Sovereign's remains or the samples from the derelict Reaper I hope and assume that at least one scientist was smart enough to take.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

lotion,can I get a source to how you can immediately clean up Cerberus' mess? who's to say Shep is too busy to respond to a Cerberus screw up?Oh thats right,BW,not you,not me,not alp,not someone with mass,but BW.

Why don't you read. I reapted this a zillion times before.

Shep knows the location of the base. He has the IFF.  Cerberus is small and doesn't have a navy.

If Cerberus screws up, all Shep has to do is place a call to the Council or Hackett, and you'll have a fleet to blow up the Cerberus base and all the mess on it.

Why do you assume Shep has to do everything himself?

Source that they aren't busy as well? There is a reaper war going on after all,and the council and alliance are going to realize "they dun goofed"