1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...]Well,if they couldn't salvage that op why would you have any faith they could with the base?

Maybe they could have if we hadn't completely destroyed it? Nevertheless, that's not what I was arguing. I was just responding to Jedierick's implication that Cerberus saw nothing else of value in the derelict but the IFF, which hardly seems plausible.

B)Aye,perhaps it was implied sarcasm.

[rwilli80]

I just finished another play through and did not destroy the Collector base, I went into this round with that intention but the more I thought about it and ME3 I came to a conclusion.. what if keeping the collector base keeps Cerberus from becoming indoctrinated in the next game. Hear me out, so far the general consensus is that Cerberus is indoctrinated in the next game, but what if they are only under reaper control because you destroyed the base, what if TIM used the base to figure out a way to get around indoctrination? That would be a rather unique twist to give renegades a brake and give paragons a hard time. What do you people think?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

rwilli80 wrote...

I just finished another play through and did not destroy the Collector base, I went into this round with that intention but the more I thought about it and ME3 I came to a conclusion.. what if keeping the collector base keeps Cerberus from becoming indoctrinated in the next game. Hear me out, so far the general consensus is that Cerberus is indoctrinated in the next game, but what if they are only under reaper control because you destroyed the base, what if TIM used the base to figure out a way to get around indoctrination? That would be a rather unique twist to give renegades a brake and give paragons a hard time. What do you people think?

I never thought that the whole of Cerberus was indoctrinated base on a rough*emphasis on rough demo.

However you make an interesting point.If this were the case it would make cerberus even more dangerous because they can resist indoctrination.If they didn't share this tech it would be catastrophic.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 29 juillet 2011 - 02:38 .

[redneckwonderland]

^^^ like your theory.
perhaps tim is indocrtinating his agents to have them be "fearless" as they have been described.

[jedierick]

HomelessGal wrote...

Kinda confused where you're going with the derelict Reaper thing. Cerberus lost contact with the team they sent to investigate it, and circumstances forced you to destroy the Reaper after acquiring the IFF. Its not like Cerberus' actual plan was to grab the IFF and dump the rest of the Reaper into the star.

Your right but, they didnt just find the derelict reaper right when they figured out that they needed an IFF. And even if they did, any science team is not going to just walk right in and find it hanging on the wall. If you notice the team had setup walkways, doors etc, so they were there long enough to do that, and figure out how to obtain the IFF, because of this there shoudl have been some data there for them to study.

Still, if TIM gets a Reaper, and then just goes to get an IFF, then he is dumb, he shoudl have put a lot more resources into other aspects as well.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

It has been awhile, but I believe that the "This ship is important" dialogue choice after EDI tells you to go blow up the Core even prompts Miranda to suggest trying to find the research team's data before leaving. Just because Team Shepard opts to grab the IFF and run doesn't mean there wasn't any else from the research team they could've taken.

That mission would have sucked if you were the Master Chief(other then being vastly more capabale then Shep sorry) you would be there all fricken day killing the combat forms husks and collect ALL of the data.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

In a billion identical corridors, no less.

WIth EDI arguing with Cortana about who is prettier,and more blue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pointing holes in your logic here..

You keep insisting that the base and reaper corpse are useless - which is obviously not true.
For one TIM wouldn't be interested in it if that was true. For other, we know there's reaper tech in it.

It's as simple as taht.

Eh, no?

I'm simply pointing out that they can still be salvaged, even if they blow up. That's how we got like 90% of all the Reaper tech we used to get to the base.

Both the fetus and the base can be salvaged, depending on the scenario.

Of course something can be salvaged. I never contested that.
But the greater the damage, the less you can salvage.

If you have any point wiht this, I don't see it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why would you wait AFTER the reapers arrive to check on Cerberus?
That makes no sense. You keep tabs on them.

They should produce something to use agaisnt the reapers before the reapers arrive. Since, you know..any technology or upgrade will need tiem to be mass-produced and incorporated into the fleet.

Heck, have a ship stationed near to blow them away at first sign of trouble.

But you never told the council or the alliance about the base,that wasn't in the game.No one but Shepard knows that Cerberus has the base,and there isn't any indication that TIM is going to give away his new toys.

The game ends right after you make that base choice, so the game doesn't give you the choice to call the Alliance. But that is irrelevant.

Again, we're talking about reasonable options and knowledge available to Sheppard.
The option to tell them is therefore there, as a posibility.

Don't start metagaming arguments again.

Ah I see,so when I talk about what happens in the future it's an impossibility,but when you do it it is certainty according to your omnipotent and impeccible "logicz"

Now you're just being stupid.

Anything that can reasonably happen in the future is a possiblity.
Evne in gameplay terms, you don't know ME3 won't give you an option to tell the Alliance the location of the Cerberus base.

However, you can't use things from ME3 as an argument agaisnt the logic/validity of the decisions made in ME2, because those things didn't happen yet, and at the time of decision making, they are nto fact, but a possiblity.

Dont' blame me for your lack of forthougth and reasoning skills...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why not? Reapers are ships, not humans. Size matters little.
There's nothing stopping the reapers from installing a new and improved power conduit or EZ core or something on the human-reaper.
Also, anything that was to be a part of a fully-grown reaper, would have to construccted on that base.

you fail...yet again.

Oh, I fail because you can't see my point just because it doesn't fit nicely with your argument, so you're making stuff up as you go and are blatantly ignoring the rest?

That's nice.

Pointing holes in your logic here..

You keep insisting that the base and reaper corpse are useless - which is obviously not true.
For one TIM wouldn't be interested in it if that was true. For other, we know there's reaper tech in it.

It's as simple as taht.

Where is the source that the corpse and base aren't useless? link please.

The source is called TEH GAME. And also common sense. You might have heard of it..or not.

Where in the game do they confirm that it isn't useless? I didn't see the vid or read the email tim sends saying "You'll never believe what happened,I GOT THE DATA,dont ask how,just..call it a gift"

You don't get to use the common sense argument if no one else does.

Everything in the game poitns that is is very usefull. Your'e trying to confirm a negative, for which there is nothing to back it up in the game.
In other words, you're crusading for a exceptionally unliekly and far fetched event, with nothing to back it up except for your desirte for that event.

And yes, I get to use the common sense argument. Even moreso if others don't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) CAN lead to bad consequences. But thing is - you know it. You know where the base is. Cerberus screwup can tehrefore be predicted and contained/solved rahter easily.

2) They don't disregard negative consequences as much as push forward despite them.

Also,everything has the potential to bite you in the ass.

So in the immediate aftermath of the reaper invasion or during the invasion itself, you in one case may not have the resources to deal with a problem and in the other may be somewhat busy, your assumption is dealing with a problem represents no problem.

Off course it does, something you don't seem to take into account because it may somewhat negate your base is key to victory argument.

I adressed this before..and again..you people coudlnt' read to save your sorry life.

I explained why dealding with Cerberus is as insignificant problem compared ot Cerberus trheat. I also explained how to deal with it.
Of course, I assume Sheppard and the Alliance have a bit of brainpower, so they won't wait for the reapers to start invading before they check up on the base!

Really...what are the Chances for Cerberus to screw up something EXACTLY at the same time ther reapers arrive? If they screw up, it bound ot be before or after.
If it's before, you can easy deal with just them. And you don't allow it to be an after.
Park a cruiser at that relay, and blow hte base at the first sign of trouble.

I don't disregard anything.
Unless you missed it yourself, they are BOTH covered in choice 3, by your own words.

In fact, it is you who disregard everything but the two points above.

I alredy explained before why the danger isn't as great. Several time. I proven it in fact, that the potential benefits outstrip the potential negatives.
Practiciality and reason go out the window. Mistrust of Cerberus is the prime motivator here. Not logic.

 
While accepting that there is potential negative consequences you continually portray what could be the worst of those consequences as inconsequential, so your tacitly accepting but downplaying and disregarding them.

I don't disregard anything in fact if you read my entire post you'd have seen this, what i said was if you accept the first 2 parts as true, then because of the choice your forced to make, it informs that choice leading to destroying the base.

Which by definition would also mean the opposite.

Read the above.

Yes, you do disregard things. Namely that you have no real idea of how Cerberus could be such a big threat.
I'm not downplaying the consequences, you are overblowing them.

Other people have argued that "Cerbers + reaper tech will take over the galaxy!" and such silly theories have been dismissed easily.

Unless you have a clear example of how Cerberus could be such a massive danger to the galaxy that researching the base simply isn't worth it?

Your the one who came on here with his tearing down arguments line, that somehow you alone were the bastion of logic and reason and anyone who disagreed with your opinion should "cry you a river and in fact that is all they can do".

So if i'm insulting you its because your own actions have warranted it.

Your say i don't have any arguments which is why i turned to insults and this is somehow a demonstration of my impotence and frustration in this debate.

I've argued consistently and logically with someone who's response to my or any argument that disagrees with him is to write a response and then claim that this response proves he was right.

When contradicted his response is, you have no arguments, i've torn down your arguments, but i'm the one frustrated, really, thats the best you can come up with.

You have no acceptance that your argument could be wrong or flawed, revert to practically sticking your fingers in your ears when questioned on why that is and then claim its others that are frustrated.

I'm hardly the only one in this discussion (altouhg I appear to be the most vocal one). So no, I'm harldy alone out here.

And see...you are frustrated here. Again, with nothing but accisations aimed at me.

I am quite open to some of my arguments being wrong. When someone adds something of value, I accept it.
For example, SWM brought the point of the reaper corpse explosion.

I HAVE torn down your arguments. But you just cannot accept it. The one with fingers in his ears is you, not me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Who sez I don't accept your view?
I just don't accept it as truly logical, as it relies on filtered and incorrect data.

You don't accept destroying the base can be just as valid a choice as your own keeping the base, so because of this any argument for destroying the base is illogical and relies on filtered and incorrect data in your opinion.

So how exactly are you accepting my view?

Your basis for keeping the base is as illogical and relies on the same date the difference is you've come up with your reasoning why any other data is flawed and illogical and nothing will allow your view be challenged because of this.

Wrong...again.

I can accept destroying the base is a valid choice (from a RP perspective), but it's not a logical/smart choice. Those are two different thnigs.
And most of you in this thread cannot seem to grasp that difference. So fragile is your ego that you cannot accept the choice you made in-game to be anything but the best. Haven's forbid your Shepaprd did something that wasn't really smart!

Cold, caluculated logic is backing me up. You? Not so much.

You don't see the immorality in putting something potentially dangerous into the hands of people you already know are not entirely moral.

Considering I'm trying to save the universe? nope. Besides, theere's planty of decent people in Cerberus too.

Instead you create a scenario where keeping the base is the only way to ensure survival thereby overuling any other moral choice.

SMARTEST way. Not only way. Don't put words in my mouth.

As for accepting solid logical arguments, no matter who you argue with if they take a contrary position to you then your response is, your argument is illogical, so of course in your own mind you see far too few logical arguments, your own view on the choice blinds you to anything that disagrees with it and to defend your position, you claim its illogical to disagree with me.

An argument is illogical if I can use known game lore, logic and common sense to poke it full of holes. Which  Idid with the arguments presented to me so far.
I'm right because I've PROVEN to be right.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...
Everyone seems to be blowing your logic to heck and back. For instance, TIM woudlnt be interested in the base if there wasnt stuff on it of use, yet he didnt say a peep, when Sheprd blew an entire REAPER up. Yeah, I am sure there was nothing on the derelict reaper of use besides the IFF, TIM could not have got ANYTHING else usefull off of it. TIM wants the base casue he thinks it poses an advantage, which it might or might not, yet he has a REAPER, a FREAKING REAPER, and thinks the only thing there is usefull on it is the IFF?  What a maroon.

Also, if he coudlnt get anything usefull from the derelict reaper besides the IFF, then why shoudl anyone think he woudl get something from a collector base with a incomplete human reaper that was taken down by hand weapons. Not very logical.

A) Sheppard had little choice in the matter of the derelict Reaper. As you recall, the reaper had them trapped. They would have died.

We don't know if hte IFF is the only usefull thing to come out of it. that in itself is highly unlikely, amlost impossible. The team was on the reaper for weeks and sending TIM reports.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I think lotion quietly ceded defeat and left.

Only in your dreams.

I might be gone for a week or so (vacation) soon, so you best not start celebrating.

To quote our dear Harbringer.

"confidence born of Ingnorance."

[Lotion Soronarr]

jedierick wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

Kinda confused where you're going with the derelict Reaper thing. Cerberus lost contact with the team they sent to investigate it, and circumstances forced you to destroy the Reaper after acquiring the IFF. Its not like Cerberus' actual plan was to grab the IFF and dump the rest of the Reaper into the star.

Your right but, they didnt just find the derelict reaper right when they figured out that they needed an IFF. And even if they did, any science team is not going to just walk right in and find it hanging on the wall. If you notice the team had setup walkways, doors etc, so they were there long enough to do that, and figure out how to obtain the IFF, because of this there shoudl have been some data there for them to study.

Still, if TIM gets a Reaper, and then just goes to get an IFF, then he is dumb, he shoudl have put a lot more resources into other aspects as well.

I don't recall the exyct time span, but I think the scientists where on the derelict reapers for a few weeks... don't quote me on that.

It's safe to assume they were looking int oeverything.
As for resources. Cerberus spent billions on Sheppard and Normady 2, and they aren't a huge organization.
There's also no solid data on the number of people sent to the derelict repaer.

[Lotion Soronarr]

rwilli80 wrote...

I just finished another play through and did not destroy the Collector base, I went into this round with that intention but the more I thought about it and ME3 I came to a conclusion.. what if keeping the collector base keeps Cerberus from becoming indoctrinated in the next game. Hear me out, so far the general consensus is that Cerberus is indoctrinated in the next game, but what if they are only under reaper control because you destroyed the base, what if TIM used the base to figure out a way to get around indoctrination? That would be a rather unique twist to give renegades a brake and give paragons a hard time. What do you people think?

An interesting idea.

And makes sense in way. We know TIM is not the kind to simply give up and we know he likes to push reasearch, come hell or high water.
If he only had salvaged base parts to work, that would make his experiments even more dangerous and prone to backfire.

[CRISIS1717]

There's a big assumption that the base is no longer a threat and gifting this technology to a guy that is seeking power is supposedly a logical and smart move? what can he do with the tech? would everyone be saved from the Reapers only to be enslaved by the Illusive Man?

There is no correct move in the situation presented imo and I'm sure that's what Bioware was probably gunning for.

[Lotion Soronarr]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

There's a big assumption that the base is no longer a threat and gifting this technology to a guy that is seeking power is supposedly a logical and smart move? what can he do with the tech? would everyone be saved from the Reapers only to be enslaved by the Illusive Man?

There is no correct move in the situation presented imo and I'm sure that's what Bioware was probably gunning for.

And how would the Illusive man enslave the galaxy?

People keep saying "with reaper teevh" like it's some magic wand that makes all wishes true.

TIM can't enslave the galaxy. Cerberus is too small - he lacks the troops, the ships, the logistical and popular support and prety muhc everything else. He might have reaper tech, but that alone is not enough...even moreso becasue after the reaper wars (assuming we win), everyone will have reaper tech...there will be no shoratage of reaper corpses to study.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course something can be salvaged. I never contested that.
But the greater the damage, the less you can salvage.

If you have any point wiht this, I don't see it.

Yeah, of course you don't...

I'm going to let you think on that one.

[CRISIS1717]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

There's a big assumption that the base is no longer a threat and gifting this technology to a guy that is seeking power is supposedly a logical and smart move? what can he do with the tech? would everyone be saved from the Reapers only to be enslaved by the Illusive Man?

There is no correct move in the situation presented imo and I'm sure that's what Bioware was probably gunning for.

And how would the Illusive man enslave the galaxy?

People keep saying "with reaper teevh" like it's some magic wand that makes all wishes true.

TIM can't enslave the galaxy. Cerberus is too small - he lacks the troops, the ships, the logistical and popular support and prety muhc everything else. He might have reaper tech, but that alone is not enough...even moreso becasue after the reaper wars (assuming we win), everyone will have reaper tech...there will be no shoratage of reaper corpses to study.

This is sci-fi stuff bro, everything is like a magic wand. Just because everyone has the tech doesn't mean they can utilise it, Cerberus's testing facilities and bringing back Shep is enough to show they are pretty advanced. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

There's a big assumption that the base is no longer a threat and gifting this technology to a guy that is seeking power is supposedly a logical and smart move? what can he do with the tech? would everyone be saved from the Reapers only to be enslaved by the Illusive Man?

There is no correct move in the situation presented imo and I'm sure that's what Bioware was probably gunning for.

And how would the Illusive man enslave the galaxy?

People keep saying "with reaper tech" like it's some magic wand that makes all wishes true.

TIM can't enslave the galaxy. Cerberus is too small - he lacks the troops, the ships, the logistical and popular support and prety much everything else. He might have reaper tech, but that alone is not enough...even moreso becasue after the reaper wars (assuming we win), everyone will have reaper tech...there will be no shoratage of reaper corpses to study.

This is sci-fi stuff bro, everything is like a magic wand. Just because everyone has the tech doesn't mean they can utilise it, Cerberus's testing facilities and bringing back Shep is enough to show they are pretty advanced. 

No, it's not like magic wand. For the most part ME science is rather good. It's far "harder" than most sci-fi's out there.

And the biggest problem with Cerberus is exactly that they can't utilise the tech effectively. They don't have the numbers or resources.

I ask again for a plausible scenario in which cerberus can take over the galaxy.
How will they overpower the many fleets of the other races? The millions of troops? How will they hold the planets and pacify the population?

[CRISIS1717]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

There's a big assumption that the base is no longer a threat and gifting this technology to a guy that is seeking power is supposedly a logical and smart move? what can he do with the tech? would everyone be saved from the Reapers only to be enslaved by the Illusive Man?

There is no correct move in the situation presented imo and I'm sure that's what Bioware was probably gunning for.

And how would the Illusive man enslave the galaxy?

People keep saying "with reaper tech" like it's some magic wand that makes all wishes true.

TIM can't enslave the galaxy. Cerberus is too small - he lacks the troops, the ships, the logistical and popular support and prety much everything else. He might have reaper tech, but that alone is not enough...even moreso becasue after the reaper wars (assuming we win), everyone will have reaper tech...there will be no shoratage of reaper corpses to study.

This is sci-fi stuff bro, everything is like a magic wand. Just because everyone has the tech doesn't mean they can utilise it, Cerberus's testing facilities and bringing back Shep is enough to show they are pretty advanced. 

No, it's not like magic wand. For the most part ME science is rather good. It's far "harder" than most sci-fi's out there.

And the biggest problem with Cerberus is exactly that they can't utilise the tech effectively. They don't have the numbers or resources.

I ask again for a plausible scenario in which cerberus can take over the galaxy.
How will they overpower the many fleets of the other races? The millions of troops? How will they hold the planets and pacify the population?

with Reaper tech 

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it's not like magic wand. For the most part ME science is rather good. It's far "harder" than most sci-fi's out there.

And the biggest problem with Cerberus is exactly that they can't utilise the tech effectively. They don't have the numbers or resources.

I ask again for a plausible scenario in which cerberus can take over the galaxy.
How will they overpower the many fleets of the other races? The millions of troops? How will they hold the planets and pacify the population?

Except...they do.


"Fearless, disciplined and unrelenting, Cerberus Assault Troopers are the backbone of the Illusive Man's army."