1939 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

To the OP: The novelty of a Paragon choice going wrong?

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And why is giving the technology to someone that can benefit from it ten times more than Cerberus, like, say, the Alliance, is so harmeful, when the alternative is to give it to Dr. Illusive Claw? 

Don't change the goal posts. That wasn't an option with the collector base which is why we're not discussing it.

And as I've said. TIM has no control over his cells when it matters, so why should I give them weapons to do even more damage with?

I've already said plenty of times before that I think our chances against the reapers are ****ty enough to risk it.

Hellbound555 wrote...

Im just trying to look at the bigger picture. Reapers are a problem, yes. But so is mutually assured destruction.

The reapers dwarf any threat from Cerberus. You can't be certain what will happen after the reapers are dealt with no matter what you think about Cerberus or the other organizations in the galaxy. What you can be sure of is that the reapers will kill everyone then most likely continue doing it for millions of years.

Are you going to risk allowing that cycle to continue because you're worried about what might happen if the reapers are defeated?

[Homebound]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I thought that too, but then thats putting a lot of faith in TiM. I dont trust TiM.

I trust that TIM intends to fight the reapers, that is about it.

But even in your case, you don't have a lot of options available. You have no idea how many reapers there are or when they'll arrive (as far as Shepard is concerned at the end of ME2 of course). They could arrive in a week or in ten years. Do you think you can afford to play it safe until another opportunity presents itself? (Assuming one even exists).

I don't. Sometimes you just have to take risks. Giving the base to TIM is a necessary risk in my opinion because the reapers are just that bad.

I thought so too, but then I realized the future this might bring. Remember, Cerberus is all about human/cerberus dominance. They want to keep all the other races out of the tree-house metaphorically speaking.

TiM is going to try to get the other races killed is what Im saying.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
I don't understand why you think verbal communication has to do with anything in Overlord.

Addendum. Being a mathematical genius does not automatically teach you a verbal language.

Like they tried to bang inside our heads with David Archer.

So, yeah. Excuse me if I ignore that totally pathetic project, as it's only trying to insult my intelligence.

I'm still confused. Overlord was about creating a hybrid human/VI that could interface with the geth and control them. What does this have to do with verbal language?

[nhsk]

Inverness Moon wrote...

The reapers dwarf any threat from Cerberus. You can't be certain what will happen after the reapers are dealt with no matter what you think about Cerberus or the other organizations in the galaxy. What you can be sure of is that the reapers will kill everyone then most likely continue doing it for millions of years.

Are you going to risk allowing that cycle to continue because you're worried about what might happen if the reapers are defeated?

Out from my statement on the first page I would yes. I would rather lose than become what we just fought, and not explicitely saying we all will become Reapers but just something equally dicky.

[Homebound]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And why is giving the technology to someone that can benefit from it ten times more than Cerberus, like, say, the Alliance, is so harmeful, when the alternative is to give it to Dr. Illusive Claw? 

Don't change the goal posts. That wasn't an option with the collector base which is why we're not discussing it.

And as I've said. TIM has no control over his cells when it matters, so why should I give them weapons to do even more damage with?

I've already said plenty of times before that I think our chances against the reapers are ****ty enough to risk it.

Hellbound555 wrote...

Im just trying to look at the bigger picture. Reapers are a problem, yes. But so is mutually assured destruction.

The reapers dwarf any threat from Cerberus. You can't be certain what will happen after the reapers are dealt with no matter what you think about Cerberus or the other organizations in the galaxy. What you can be sure of is that the reapers will kill everyone then most likely continue doing it for millions of years.

Are you going to risk allowing that cycle to continue because you're worried about what might happen if the reapers are defeated?

i feel that cerberus' human-centric agenda is a destabilizing element in the galactic community of mass effect. Given too much power, this will cause a great divide with the other races. Division in the face of the Reaper threat is a weakness that will cost us greatly.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I've already said plenty of times before that I think our chances against the reapers are ****ty enough to risk it.

They are? Then there's really no point in risking it, if we're so royally screwed, is there?

[Inverness Moon]

Hellbound555 wrote...

I thought so too, but then I realized the future this might bring. Remember, Cerberus is all about human/cerberus dominance. They want to keep all the other races out of the tree-house metaphorically speaking.

TiM is going to try to get the other races killed is what Im saying.

Human dominance does not mean commiting genocide on other races. That is cliche villain thinking. What it means is being the biggest kid on the block, because TIM believes military strength among other things will help protect humanity. (This is supported in part by the events in Revelation)

Gaining allies is another way of protecting humanity and I doubt TIM doesn't see that.

Either way, I don't think TIM is going to start anything if the reapers are dealt with, and that is assuming he is even alive or in a position to do so afterwards.

What you need to be doing is focusing on the here and how, which means the reapers, which are a far greater threat than Cerberus will ever be.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I'm still confused. Overlord was about creating a hybrid human/VI that could interface with the geth and control them. What does this have to do with verbal language?

http://masseffect.wi...ki/David_Archer

[Homebound]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I thought so too, but then I realized the future this might bring. Remember, Cerberus is all about human/cerberus dominance. They want to keep all the other races out of the tree-house metaphorically speaking.

TiM is going to try to get the other races killed is what Im saying.

Human dominance does not mean commiting genocide on other races. That is cliche villain thinking. What it means is being the biggest kid on the block, because TIM believes military strength among other things will help protect humanity. (This is supported in part by the events in Revelation)

Gaining allies is another way of protecting humanity and I doubt TIM doesn't see that.

Either way, I don't think TIM is going to start anything if the reapers are dealt with, and that is assuming he is even alive or in a position to do so afterwards.

What you need to be doing is focusing on the here and how, which means the reapers, which are a far greater threat than Cerberus will ever be.

TiM has this thing where he hurts the most amount of people to accomplish something. This will carry over if you give him the base.

[Inverness Moon]

nhsk wrote...

Out from my statement on the first page I would yes. I would rather lose than become what we just fought, and not explicitely saying we all will become Reapers but just something equally dicky.

I simply don't get arguments like yours.

You think suddenly after defeating the reapers everyone will get the idea of liquidating themselves into giant sentient ships and perpetuating a cycle of genocide for tens of millions of years?

No.

Someone With Mass wrote...

They are? Then there's really no point in risking it, if we're so royally screwed, is there?

Fortunately, both my Shepard and TIM are not as ready to give up as Saren was.

Hellbound555 wrote...

i feel that cerberus' human-centric agenda is a destabilizing element in the galactic community of mass effect. Given too much power, this will cause a great divide with the other races. Division in the face of the Reaper threat is a weakness that will cost us greatly.

Except nothing has happened to suggest Cerberus is doing that.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Fortunately, both my Shepard and TIM are not as ready to give up as Saren was.

Except that I think there's a vast difference between giving up and being a complete ass-clown.

[Homebound]

I dont trust TiM enough to hand him what could be the most powerful weapon in the mass effect universe.

[Inverness Moon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
I'm still confused. Overlord was about creating a hybrid human/VI that could interface with the geth and control them. What does this have to do with verbal language?

http://masseffect.wi...ki/David_Archer

So? Yes David is an autistic savant, etc. I still don't get what you're trying to say. Do you honestly think he was meant to control geth by talking to them or something?

Hellbound555 wrote...

TiM has this thing where he hurts the most amount of people to accomplish something. This will carry over if you give him the base.

There is a chance of that, but defeating the reapers is still top priority. TIM might hurt some or a lot of people in the process, but the reapers will just kill everyone.

[Taesuun]

Well I'd say the biggest risk is the indoctrination if the base is kept. There's also the fact that Shephard fought hard to get to his goal, then all the sudden TIM comes up with a great plan to neutralize the base instead.. Who's to say that will even work, better to blow it up with a good ol' fashion chain reaction to guarantee you don't have to come back : p

Granted, there's a good opportunity to learn from the station, but with big risk. Shephards decision might very well be affected by how well he managed to pull that suicide mission off. If he didn't lose a single crew member he might get confident that the base isn't that important, where as if he lost half his team he might get shaky and deem the risk of keeping the base necessary to learn more. This in turn might be affected by Shephards earlier history, if he's already used to losing a lot of people under his command or not.

So it's all about how you rp your Shephard, really. There are risks in both keeping the base and destroying it. The fact that Cerberus is the enemy in ME3 shouldn't really factor in, if you don't like to metagame.

[upsettingshorts]

Hellbound555 wrote...

TiM has this thing where he hurts the most amount of people to accomplish something. This will carry over if you give him the base.

Hellbound555 has this thing where he runs with a fabricated premise and speculates.  This will carry over if you respond to his posts.

The Illusive Man is a prescriptive political realist and a jingoist.  That doesn't make him an always-chaotic-evil or a moron. 

That said, and this is a general observation, metagame knowledge of Cerberus' indoctrination, or the way BioWare may or may not handle Renegade decisions can only detract from a thoughtful discussions over the relative merits of keeping or destroying the base. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 10:14 .

[Homebound]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
I'm still confused. Overlord was about creating a hybrid human/VI that could interface with the geth and control them. What does this have to do with verbal language?

http://masseffect.wi...ki/David_Archer

So? Yes David is an autistic savant, etc. I still don't get what you're trying to say. Do you honestly think he was meant to control geth by talking to them or something?

Hellbound555 wrote...

TiM has this thing where he hurts the most amount of people to accomplish something. This will carry over if you give him the base.

There is a chance of that, but defeating the reapers is still top priority. TIM might hurt some or a lot of people in the process, but the reapers will just kill everyone.

there are bigger factions in the galaxy than cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Inverness Moon wrote...
So? Yes David is an autistic savant, etc. I still don't get what you're trying to say. Do you honestly think he was meant to control geth by talking to them or something?

Present on Aite during Cerberus' Project Overlord, it was discovered that David was able to communicate with the geth on a fundamental level by reproducing their patterns of speech.

And I stopped giving a **** at that point, because the game certainly didn't.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Fortunately, both my Shepard and TIM are not as ready to give up as Saren was.

Except that I think there's a vast difference between giving up and being a complete ass-clown.

Then you will die, and your companions. Everyone you know and love, everyone you've ever met. Don't you understand? You will all die!

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

TiM has this thing where he hurts the most amount of people to accomplish something. This will carry over if you give him the base.

Hellbound555 has this thing where he runs with a fabricated premise and speculates.  This will carry over if you respond to his posts.

The Illusive Man is a prescriptive political realist and a jingoist.  That doesn't make him an always-chaotic-evil or a moron. 

That said, and this is a general observation, metagame knowledge of Cerberus' indoctrination, or the way BioWare may or may not handle Renegade decisions can only detract from a thoughtful discussions over the relative merits of keeping or destroying the base. 

I dont agree with his methods.

He fed my Shepard's team to Thresher Maws on Akuze.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 15 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .

[Inverness Moon]

Hellbound555 wrote...

there are bigger factions in the galaxy than cerberus.

Factions that are too big to worry about Shepard's crazy-talk about these reapers it seems.

Someone With Mass wrote...

Present on Aite during Cerberus' Project Overlord, it was discovered that David was able to communicate with the geth on a fundamental level by reproducing their patterns of speech.

And I stopped giving a **** at that point, because the game certainly didn't.

Thank you for getting to the point. 

I assume it's talking about the clicking noises and stuff that geth make all the time. I doubt they make those noises for no reason, and even if using sound waves it would certainly be more efficient than normal spoken English.

That does seem kind of silly though, and I would blame BioWare's writers. That doesn't mean the motivation behind Overlord was unsound or the direct connection form the mind like what happened in the game is nonsensical.

[upsettingshorts]

Hellbound555 wrote...

I dont agree with his methods.

And that is Paragon Shepard's perogative.  In his or her world, the ends never justify the means.  The way BioWare writes the outcomes for things, this is often proven to be a risk-free ethical position in Mass Effect 1-2. 

However, there are two issues I can see with this:

1) It assumes knowledge of consequences as written in the ME1-2 universe, that things do turn out okay all the time ought not to be part of any discussion of the universe that purports to be either in character, or even describe self-insert decisionmaking.  As if we were indeed there making the decision that made us feel better, we couldn't know that we had BioWare writers to make sure what we did would work out in the end.

2) It assumes that Mass Effect 3 will follow the same formula of essentially letting Paragons take the riskier looking road and still have an easy path to the objective.  This is not assured.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 juillet 2011 - 10:22 .

[Inverness Moon]

Hellbound555 wrote...

I dont agree with his methods.

He fed my Shepard's team to Thresher Maws on Akuze.

You don't have to agree with TIM's methods to see the need for coopeation in the face of an immensely greater threat like the reapers.

Working against each other will only harm your efforts, so will throwing away possible advantages like the collector base.

Anyhow, I need to go to sleep, this has been a good discussion. Good night. 

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I dont agree with his methods.

And that is Paragon Shepard's perogative.  In his or her world, the ends never justify the means.  The way BioWare writes the outcomes for things, this is often proven to be a risk-free ethical position in Mass Effect 1-2. 

However, there are two issues with this:

1) It assumes knowledge of consequences as written in the ME1-2 universe, that things do turn out okay all the time ought not to be part of any discussion of the universe that purports to be either in character, or even describe self-insert decisionmaking.  As if we were indeed there making that decision, we couldn't know that we had BioWare writers to make sure what we did worked out.

2) It assumes that Mass Effect 3 will follow the same formula of essentially letting Paragons take the riskier looking road and still have an easy path to the objective.  This is not assured.  

There are more than 1 solution to solve a problem. unless if its a math problem.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

marshalleck wrote...

Unless Bioware are trying to make the Reapers pull off an incredibly cheap Xanatos gambit.

That's possible, but I think that technology is technology... if you adapt it correctly, you can use it without negative consequences.

Otherwise we wouldn't get anywhere technologically... we thrive on sharing and collectively advancing technology.