30 réponses à ce sujet

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

I had been replaying ME1 recently, and forgot how much I enjoyed the "core" missions (core to the story that is.)  Noveria has great characters, a pretty seamless 'level' that goes on for miles, and it's FUN.  Feros is very atmospheric, has the great intro before the main story begins (clearing out the tunnels), more great characters to interact with - yes, even Ethan Jeong.  Then there's Ilos, beautifully set up, with the emotional climax of meeting Vigil.  And finally the amazing backdrop of Sovereign during the Siege of the Citadel.  I look forward to all of these.  One thing in common - there is a lot more to these levels than just a boss fight at the end.  Whether it's Benezia, the Thorian, or Saren (twice!) you get to role-play and learn more about the story, it's not just a battle.

I could easily play a "just core mission" ME game.

And then there is ME2.

You know what, I hate the damn Collector Ship.  What's the climax?  Collectors are just Protheans?  Realizing It's A Trap?  I guess maybe it is the trap and the fight on the platform, but that's just bloody annoying, and even if it is just a fight, I've never enjoyed it.

Derelict Reaper?  Does anyone say "oh boy, husk rushes, yaay!"  You learn a bit about what happened on the ship by activating consoles but it's basically a slugfest between you and husks/scions. 

Horizon?  I fear when this gets triggered.  It isn't that Horizon is hard - it's that it isn't very enjoyable.  Outside of a mechanic and the VS who is just pissed at you, there's no story.

All of these, in ME2, are things you have to do to complete the game.  They aren't things I want to do, because those levels are fun or interesting or whatever.  

My mind has changed a lot about ME2 since giving ME1 more plays.

[Iakus]

ME 2 struck me as just a dozen DLC packs bundled around a very very thin story.

LOTSB and Arrival played more like sequels to ME1

[celuloid]

Yeah, ME2 core story sucks, it is all shooting and no roleplaying. Let's move on.

[Babli]

But characters are the story!!1!

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Babli wrote...

But characters are the story!!1!

It's too bad there isn't any characterization during the core missions for anyone...

[Sajuro]

feel you are being unfair towards ME2 since the first recruitment missions could be considered 'core' since they are required to the story, and they offer opportunities for roleplaying that are so lacking on alien space ships and such.
That said, I think that Mass Effect 2 is more micro missions, but I wouldn't call it a 'series of DLC packs' since I think it did have a strong narrative to hold it together.

[Commander_Adept]

Eh, I disagree. I liked Mass 2's story more than Mass 1's, not that the first game's was bad (Story was pretty much the only good thing about Mass 1). The characters really are a story. Shepard's mounting an assault against a mysterious race of things that are abducting entire goddamned colonies of humans and nobody cares except for a terrorist group that Shepard has had bad experiences with in the past and is forced to work with? Pretty damn good story...

Shepard being against a rogue spectre who controls a bunch of robots we already know most things about? Noveria, the worst mission in the series? Feros, a mission that seems completely irrelevent to the rest of the game? Therum, the place where Shepard seals off most non-favoritism towards a character in the game? Virmire was amazing, don't get me wrong. The situation with Wrex, trying to help Kirrahe, Ashley or Kaidan... Damn good writing, but Feros, Noveria and Therum were just stupid in general. Two of those should be optional, anyway. It's not like you need Liara to go get Benezia, and she becomes such a forefront in EVERYTHING in the game that it just seems crappy. I'm not a fan of Liara... Or Ashley or Kaidan for that matter. Tali, Wrex and Garrus (The actually interesting characters) get shunted aside for the VS and Liara just because of dev favoritism. Don't get me wrong, I'm very aware of favoritism in Mass 2 as well... Miranda's amount of face time makes me sick, since she's like the worst in that game.

When it comes down to it for me, I'll take Horizon, the Derelict Reaper, Collector Ship & Base over Husky Saren, Noveria, Therum and Feros any day.

[elitecom]

First I must say, yes ME1's core missions are awesome. They got great atmosphere, story, and are executed flawlessly. 
Now regarding ME2, what you must take into account is that ME2 is structured differently. In ME2 you got this big mission you've to prepare yourself for. So instead of having the core missions as we see in ME1, we instead have these recruitment missions and loyalty missions which are supposed to fill the role of core missions in ME2.
Now they're not necessarily equal in length to what we have in ME1, but on the other hand there's a lot more missions to do. So it adds up in that regard.  

[Iakus]

Sajuro wrote...

feel you are being unfair towards ME2 since the first recruitment missions could be considered 'core' since they are required to the story, and they offer opportunities for roleplaying that are so lacking on alien space ships and such.
That said, I think that Mass Effect 2 is more micro missions, but I wouldn't call it a 'series of DLC packs' since I think it did have a strong narrative to hold it together.

The problem her is we're supposed to be building a team, but the teammates don't interact..  We do missions, Shepard's confronted with a choice, and no one speaks up.  Who thinks saving the genophage data is a good idea?  Who wants to abandon Ronald Taylor to his fate?  Who comforts Tali?  Which squadmates think Sidonis should die, and who thinks he should be spared?  The game is supposed to be "about the characters"  but it isn't. It's not about building a team, it's about Commander Shepard wandering the galaxy righting wrongs.  With interesting characters tagging along.

Which brings us to the main plot, the Suicide Mission.

Ostensibly, Shepard is supposed to be preparing for it.  He's supposed to recruit a team and get them ready. Only, that's not really what happens.  Only two three squadmates is Shepard given a reason to recruit:

Mordin:  Brilliant scientist who is being recruited to find a way to defeat the seeker swarm technology
Okeer:  krogan warlord who h as had dealings with the Collectors and may have valuable information
Tali:  Shepard can recommend her as she was on the old team.  TIM says he will take it under advisement.

All the others are recruited for little more reason than "They are different types of bad****es"  Even Danny Ocean had an idea what the plan was and what he was up against before recruiting his team!

It's not until the Collector ship mission that Shepard and TIM even know what's on the other side of the Omega IV Relay.  All this time Shep's been recruiting people for a mission he doesn't even know the parameters of!

Shepard doesn't  even "prepare" in the literal sense.  He does little to go out of his way to get better equipment.  Sure you can ask teammates about ways to upgrade the Normandy but that's about it.  New weapons are gained mainly by tripping over them on missions.  Same with most weapon and shield upgrades.  

This is why I refer to the game as a bunch of DLC packs.  Except fro Mordin's recruitment mission, they have no bearing on the actual mission of the game.  Almost every single mission stands alone, neither referring to nor being referred to at any other point in the game.  Nothing builds on each other.  Nothing connects.

In preparing for a suicide mission, I expected to play a game where you research the enemy, find strengths and weaknesses, recruit a team based on these discoveries, and trick out your ship and weapons to give yourself the best odds you can for that mission.  While the personal  missions told good stories, they overwhelmed the main story, which is supposed to be "Shepard's story"

[InkognitoY]

@Iakus, that pretty much sums up my feelings towards ME2.

I also want to add that every loyalty mission is the same (with the exception of Thanes and Samara's, but even then the basic parameters are the same): you have to find somebody, shoot some people, and then stand there as you're squadmates get their helping of revenge. By the time I was halfway through all the loyalty missions I just wanted to stop doing them because they were getting so repetitive.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having to find squadmates, and then make sure they trust you, but at the same time, that shouldn't be the entire game, epescially when you don't really know why you need to get most of your squadmates.

I hope ME3 requires you to find squadmates, and then make them loyal to you, but I hope you that throughout the game, as you complete main story missions.

For example, after you go through Noveria, you find out some new information that requires you to go recruit X

Then again, I think most of ME3 will just be spent fighting Reapers :/

[Iakus]

little_sargon wrote...

I think it ties into the ineptness of Cerberus. I felt like the Illusive Man just wanted all the "coolest" people in the galaxy on his team, which included reviving Shepherd and using his reputation to get them. Then he sends them into traps to see what happens. Sounds exactly like what Cerberus was doing in the first game - recruit a bunch of top scientists then have them mess around with husks, rachni, etc. on dangerous planets and ignore them when the Spectre comes knocking. You weren't with the Council or Alliance - legitimate organizations with actual plans. You were forced to work for a megalomaniac who had brought you back to life and gave you resources, a ship, and intel.

What I tell myself (my "head canon") is that TIM never meant for them to survive the Suicide Mission.  He gave them just enough resources to succeed and have as many of them die as possible.  As they all in some way represented a threat to Cerberus' long term plans.

That's what keeps me from going mad, anyway... 

Modifié par iakus, 15 juillet 2011 - 08:17 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

iakus wrote...

The problem her is we're supposed to be building a team, but the teammates don't interact..  We do missions, Shepard's confronted with a choice, and no one speaks up.  Who thinks saving the genophage data is a good idea?  Who wants to abandon Ronald Taylor to his fate?  Who comforts Tali?  Which squadmates think Sidonis should die, and who thinks he should be spared?  The game is supposed to be "about the characters"  but it isn't. It's not about building a team, it's about Commander Shepard wandering the galaxy righting wrongs.  With interesting characters tagging along.

Right.  Nobody seems to think keeping the base is a good idea - even Morinth!  Most characters get no lines during another loyalty mission.  Garrus never says anything to Tali for instance, even though they served under Shepard together in ME1.  They're combat partners only. 

This is why I refer to the game as a bunch of DLC packs.  Except fro Mordin's recruitment mission, they have no bearing on the actual mission of the game.  Almost every single mission stands alone, neither referring to nor being referred to at any other point in the game.  Nothing builds on each other.  Nothing connects.

In preparing for a suicide mission, I expected to play a game where you research the enemy, find strengths and weaknesses, recruit a team based on these discoveries, and trick out your ship and weapons to give yourself the best odds you can for that mission.  While the personal  missions told good stories, they overwhelmed the main story, which is supposed to be "Shepard's story"

Well, we do have a chance to "fight the collectors" - twice, really.  Once with a barebones crew, the other with a more complete set of crewmembers but - for instance - you probably don't have Samara with Reave unlocked yet.  Or Warp Ammo.  I realize that is combat related but the pacing of the story is off.  It's like someone designed the core missions and someone else designed the characters and they never talked. 

[sbvera13]

Sections of Good Story in ME2: The Suicide Mission. Time: About 20 minutes.

Sections of Good Story in ME1: The entire game. Time: about 20 hours.

Nuff said.

[celuloid]

Commander_Adept wrote...
Eh, I disagree. I liked Mass 2's story more than Mass 1's, not that the first game's was bad (Story was pretty much the only good thing about Mass 1). The characters really are a story. Shepard's mounting an assault against a mysterious race of things that are abducting entire goddamned colonies of humans and nobody cares except for a terrorist group that Shepard has had bad experiences with in the past and is forced to work with? Pretty damn good story...

That's not a story, but a wiki article stub. Sadly, this stub does not get developed any further during the game. Okay, there is EDI one-liner where she says those mysterious things are repurposed Protheans, but that is about it. And of course, Arnold awaits you at the end of long series of inter-disconnected missions.

The characters really are a story.

I had to pick this one separately. This notion may very well be the concept behind ME2 story. However, characters in ME2 functioned only as a more detailed peek at ME universe. Nothing connected them together. Thus, they don't make a story, they are just an excuse for a bunch of short levels.

Noveria, the worst mission in the series?

Huh? This makes me want to scream insults, so instead I will try to write down my impressions of Noveria and some core mission from ME2.
Contestants: Noveria versus Some ME2 mid-game mission that had at least one NPC you could talk to (hint: the only one was Horizon).

Noveria:
Noveria ticket is handed to you by Anderson+Udina when you get your ship. You can get some superficial information from Volus trader in Wards about research and goods coming from there. You can choose to go to Noveria any time you want.
Roleplaying time!
A) Go get Benezia's daughter first to acquire leverage against her mother.
Go straight to Noveria.
As we see, initial exposition to Noveria is decent.
You arrive at space port and are immediately confronted with local security who do not believe you are a Spectre.
Roleplaying time!
A) Let your weapons down, potentially risking being shot afterwards.
Keep your weapons aimed at security, potentially risking casualties on both sides and diplomatic incident.
Either way, tension is interrupted by Gianni Parasini who greets you to Noveria. Unfortunately, Benezia left for some research facility and you need to get there, but weather is bad and you need a garage pass from administrator Anoleis.
Roleplaying time!
A) Investigate further, learn that Anoleis is corrupt, find evidence against him and exchange it for the pass.
Investigate further, learn that Parasini was sent to find evidence against Anoleis and rat her out. Parasini and Anoleis kill each other.
C) Investigate further, give evidence to Parasini and have Anoleis arrested.
D) Investigate further, learn that local Hanar shopkeeper smuggles weapons, rat him out to Anoleis and risk a confrontation with Krogan mercenary who wanted those weapons.
Anyway, you get the garage pass, hop in Mako and set for Peak 15 Research facility.
Roleplaying time.
A) Take Liara with you, let her settle things with her mother, while risking possible trauma from such an encounter or risking Liara's betrayal.
Let Liara stay on the ship, risking she will hold a grudge against you for denying her to see her mother or for whatever action that might happen while meeting Benezia.
While on Peak 15, firstly you have to reconnect landrails and reactivate reactor to bring train system online. After that, you take a train to the main facility. You meet Captain Ventralis there, who will give you a pass to some labs, saying Benezia went there.
Roleplaying time.
A) Go to said labs, eliminate Rachnis there, go back, everyone turns on you and you have to kill them.
Recon the surroundings first.
So you try to recon surroundings. You learn that there are patients suffering from engineered virus and they need a cure.
Roleplaying time.
A) Just hack the door to maintenance area, but if you get back, everyone will turn on you and you will have to kill them.
Make the cure, everyone is grateful and you get access to maintenance area with minimum innocent victims.
After that you finally get to Benezia and confront her. You learn about indoctrination, Sovereign and Mu Relay (it leads to Ilos and Conduit, the main McGuffin of ME1). In the end you have to kill Benezia, since she is indoctrinated. When Liara is present, she is able to say goodbye, provide at least some comfort to her mother and get a closure.
And finally, you have to decide the fate of the Rachni queen, the last surviving member of supposedly extinct species who was interrogated for her knowledge of Mu Relay.
Roleplaying time.
A) Kill the queen. It eliminates potential threat to galactic peace, but destroys the whole alien culture.
Spare the queen. You might gain strong ally in the future, but it all could be just a bluff and the queen will start another Rachni war.
Mission summary: Your reasoning and morality were tested ample times during the mission. The decisions influence the sequels.

Horizon:
Horizon ticket is handed to you by TIM just before you are involuntarily sent there.
As we see, initial exposition to Horizon is non-existent.
You arrive at some field outside some non-descript place on Horizon. Those pesky mysterious things show up and you shoot them. Then you shoot them some more and get a laser. You talk to NPC and discover the site has tower defenses. You shoot, duck, shoot and then push a button so that the defense system can repair itself. You shoot some more bugs, zombies and floating thingie. Defense system repairs itself and bugs simply bug off. Congratulations!!! You have accomplished nothing! Then Virmire survivor shows up.
Roleplaying time!
A) I work for Cerberus, because they mean well. (Paragon)
I work for Cerberus. (Neutral)
C) I work for Cerberus, because that is the way of the gangsta. (Renegade)
Mission summary: You gained 54 experience, Collector particle beam and a big headache. You learned that Collectors sometimes transform into this annoying Übercollector who spouts nonsense 24/7.

--------------

I hope it is clear why ME1 core story is 1000x better.

Modifié par celuloid, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:57 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Excellent job, celuloid. Noveria is a rich world, Horizon is... bleh.

Though you did forget the maintenance guy on Horizon. "They took Lilith!" And depending on how you interact with him... wait, it makes no difference whatsoever, forget I said that.

[sbvera13]

Celuloid you are my hero for typing all that out. 100% true.

Modifié par sbvera13, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:35 .

[sbvera13]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

If someone asks me what the story of ME2 is, I can only say one sentence: "Collectors work for the Reapers and Shepard killed them." I honestly can't think of anything else.

"And you met a bunch of people along the way."

[eternalnightmare13]

Missions like Noveria had a lot of options to them. Just getting to Peak 15 you could:

Work excussively with Gina - get her the info and get the garage pass.
Go directly to Lorik, break-in Synthetic Insights, hand over the info - get his garage pass.
Go to Admin Anolais - tell him about Lorik - get the evidence - hand it over to Admin - get garage pass.
Go to Admin Anolais - tell him about Gina - let them kill each other - get garage pass.

Multiple ways to the same end, but helluva lot more fun and rp, and replay value then ME2 - go here - *token shot of Miranda's fat ass* - Collectors show up *pew pew and listen to big mouth Harbinger run his big mouth* - find out TIM is jerking you around ... again.

[Lapis Lazuli]

I think those (rare few?) who played ME2 before they played ME1 might have a tendency to prefer ME2 if only because it formed their concept of Mass Effect and the two games are radically different.