303 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

The reapers don't stand a chance, even if Shepard were still dead.

Why? Because Cerberus is on their side.

That is hilarious. I spilled some of my coffee on my lap because of this post.

[Someone With Mass]

So much good that stealth ship did Shepard at the start of ME2. I guess absorbing the heat emitting from a ship to hide it from enemy sensors is a concept no-one has ever thought of before.

By the way, if Cerberus really influsensed the designs of the Normandy that much, then one could say that Shepard's death was also their fault. 

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 juillet 2011 - 10:37 .

[Foolsfolly]

So much good that stealth ship did Shepard at the start of ME2. I guess absorbing the heat emitting from a ship to hide it from enemy sensors is a concept no-one has ever thought of before.

The lore for the stealth system says it doesn't work when they exit FLT into an area. They leave a great big wake behind them. The problem here is that Joker's actually surprised that a ship can see them after they just exited FTL.

Allow me to open a hole into a world you will not easily return from: TVtropes on Stealth in Space. Stealth in space is hard, if not completely impossible to do. It's simply a device used in fiction so you can have a surprise attack in space...when in reality anything powered in the cold vacuum of space would give off signs that something is there.

[Someone With Mass]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The lore for the stealth system says it doesn't work when they exit FLT into an area. They leave a great big wake behind them. The problem here is that Joker's actually surprised that a ship can see them after they just exited FTL.

Allow me to open a hole into a world you will not easily return from: TVtropes on Stealth in Space. Stealth in space is hard, if not completely impossible to do. It's simply a device used in fiction so you can have a surprise attack in space...when in reality anything powered in the cold vacuum of space would give off signs that something is there.

Not to mention the constantly active element zero core. That should show up as well. 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
The lengths you go to in order insult Cerberus are quite comical at times.

Have I ever mentioned that they're a very dried-out cliche that I don't find interesting, creative, or to be deep when it comes to characters in any way possible?

So yeah.

If they must constantly insist with their bullsh*t, then I will constantly insist to insult them for the sh*t stains they are.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 juillet 2011 - 10:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The lengths you go to in order insult Cerberus are quite comical at times.

Have I ever mentioned that they're a very dried-out cliche that I don't find interesting, creative, or to be deep when it comes to characters in any way possible?

So yeah.

If they must constantly insist with their bullsh*t, then I will constantly insist to insult them for the sh*t stains they are.

Hehe.funny this is that you come off as a comical and very dried-out cliche

But seriously, yes the writing on cerberus is bad.
It's clear Bio wanted Cerberus to appear menacing, efficient and advanced - all things you'd expect from a Black Ops group with a lot of resources. Yet they wee simply so un-inventiive with their side quests and writing that they kinda shot themselves in the foot.
Univnentive? Maybe lazy.. I mean really? Who the hell thought it was a good idea to shove failed Cerberus experiments everywhere. There are OTHER factions in the universe that could use some attention ya know.
ME1 has one alliance failed experiment IIRC, but that's about it.

[Bad King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The lengths you go to in order insult Cerberus are quite comical at times.

Have I ever mentioned that they're a very dried-out cliche that I don't find interesting, creative, or to be deep when it comes to characters in any way possible?

So yeah.

If they must constantly insist with their bullsh*t, then I will constantly insist to insult them for the sh*t stains they are.

Don't worry, we're all jealous of all the women that TIM gets.

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
The lengths you go to in order insult Cerberus are quite comical at times.

Have I ever mentioned that they're a very dried-out cliche that I don't find interesting, creative, or to be deep when it comes to characters in any way possible?

So yeah.

If they must constantly insist with their bullsh*t, then I will constantly insist to insult them for the sh*t stains they are.

Don't worry, we're all jealous of all the women that TIM gets.

Guys like Something With Mass are bitter that their Sheploo can't mack as hard as TIM.



and If I have my way in ME3 my femshep will be TIM's latest catch. :happy:

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Could someone explain how Cerberus is a dried out cliche?

[armass]

I think they are starting to run out on ideas...

[The Twilight God]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no lie. You misinterpreted/misquoted. Go back and read again slowly. You're advocating a point I never made.[/quote]

Here is what you said:



[quote]So military technology is a melting pot when it suits you, but not when it doesn't.[/quote]

This implies that I asserted at some point that every race's personal weapons & armor technology was not available to all. That I flip flop depending on the circumstances. I challenegd you to show me where I've flip flopped on the issue and of course, you couldn't. Because you made it up.

Your statement was disengenous and amounted to a strawman. I called you out on it and you spewed childish remarks and tried to pretend like you didn't post what you clearly posted. You can argue that you meant to say something else, but that was what you did post.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus is interwowen with the Alliance. Cerberus wants the domininance of humanity. Hence, Alliance having better tech = stronger humanity. We know that Cerberus has a lot of connections and pull within the Alliance.
They have been heavily influencing the construction of hte Normady. Why assuke it's the only thing they influenced?[/quote]

They didn't "heavily influence" anything. They encouraged them. The point being to study turian technology. The Alliance was going to make the Normady stealth system and tantalus with or without the turians. I'm not even sure what the turians brought to the table or what they got out of it as it seems they don't have tantalus drives or stealth ships themselves. I could be wrong.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again, Cerberus is portrayed as advanced * everything, from the tech they have , to their design and resources points at this.[/quote]

"Portrayed" is the key word here. That's your perception. They don't seem to be portayed as any more advanced than anyone else to me. I've seen nothing whatsoever that shows that they are more advanced. Notice I said MORE adavanced becuase simply saying they are advanced is meaningless. EVERYONE in Mass Effect is advanced.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I've yet to see you add anything pertinent ot back up your claims.[/quote]
[/quote]

That's something we both have in common.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]

Nice try trying to avoid the questions, but you failed. I didn't ask you how long it took to simply construct it. Let me make it easier for you.

1. Did Cerberus  recreate the Normandy by using the Normandy SR-1 design schematics? Yes or No?
 
2. Did Cerberus design and develope their own stealth system from stratch? Yes or No?
 
3. Did Cerberus design and develope their own tantalus drive core from stratch? Yes or No?
 
4. Are you saying that Cerberus went through the entire development and manufacturing process from concept to reality in a 2 year timeframe? Yes or No?

Answer the questions.  Yes or No answers. Real simple. Even for a so-called educated man such as yourself. [/quote]

1. Yes, using the schematics as a base to work from
2. Don't know. Probably not.
3. Don't know. Probably not.
4. Yes. A few months in the design phase, the rest to build. Can be done.
[/quote]

1. So we agree that Cerberus did not design the Normandy themselves from stratch.

2. I'll take that as a "no", since you can't follow instructions. Interesting.

3. Yes, very interesting. That'll be a "no".

4. Most interesting. You just said in answer #1 that they did NOT design the SR-2 from stratch. In #2 and #3 you state they didn't develope the tantalus drice or stealth systems. But here in #4 you state they create it all from stratch in 2 years. You do realize you've contradicted yourself here, right.?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But we do know.
Wihout Cerberus to push it, it wouldn't have been completed as fast...or not at all. And rember that Shepard got command of it right after it was done. Simply put, if it was finshed a month later, it would have already been too late.[/quote]

You don't know anything.

EDI says Cerberus encouraged the Alliance to co-develope the Normandy with the turians. It's very possible they were going to make it with or without the turians. That's how it sounds to me. All we know is that it borrows from turian ship design practices. The really big technological innovations seem to be all Alliance This would explain why the turians don't have tantalus drives or stealth systems.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By that time Sovereign would have already won.
By ensuring the right critical equipment was avilalbe just when it was needed, they effectively turned the tide of the battle.[/quote]

You're stretching it.

Yeah, and that butterfly whose butterfly effect that diverted a hurricane from cuba and saved Shepard's great great great grandfather effectively made it possible for Shepard to be born and hence turned the tide of the battle. Sorry, but Cerberus does not get credit for work they did not do.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Normady is hte only stealth ship. A frigate perfect for infiltration and black-ops. Which is exactly what Sheppard needed. Simply put, other ships couldn't have filled it's role.[/quote]

A fleet could have. And such a fleet would have gotten their earlier before Saren found that passageway. It would have ended at Ilos if not for the Council. Besides, it's not like Cerberus wanted the Alliance to co-develop the Normandy so that it could get Shepard past a geth fleet to land on Ilos. They wanted to observe turian construction practices. Again, they don't get credit for work they did not do.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you recall, the baby-reaper was already active. They didn't need the whole Earth.
They just needed to make sure other reapers arrive. And having an active reaper could only help in that regard.
[/quote]

Wow, did you seriously just say that?

A bunch of guys with small arms shot it to death. Um, sorry, but that thing wasn't complete. EDI's scans told us that much and well the fact that 3 people on foot killed it with small arms. It would have faired even worst against a starship. It was a "fetus". They hadn't even started on the super structure much less completed the organic parts. I think you get the point, right?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no lie. You misinterpreted/misquoted. Go back and read again slowly. You're advocating a point I never made.[/quote]

Here is what you said:



[quote]So military technology is a melting pot when it suits you, but not when it doesn't.[/quote]

This implies that I asserted at some point that every race's personal weapons & armor technology was not available to all. That I flip flop depending on the circumstances. I challenegd you to show me where I've flip flopped on the issue and of course, you couldn't. Because you made it up.

Your statement was disengenous and amounted to a strawman. I called you out on it and you spewed childish remarks and tried to pretend like you didn't post what you clearly posted. You can argue that you meant to say something else, but that was what you did post.[/quote]

You're full of it...and clearly not rewading properly. Do I really have to explain this?

If you claim that the personal armor and weaposn are a melting pot, and is avilable to all; and hten you claim that other miltiary tech is not a melting pot, then you're making a huge leap and lapse in logic.

Compelte melting pot of X, but not Y?
Why would hte races even share their top-of-the-line stuff of anything on the open market? If ever?

Now stop your redicolous Ad Hominems kid.






[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus is interwowen with the Alliance. Cerberus wants the domininance of humanity. Hence, Alliance having better tech = stronger humanity. We know that Cerberus has a lot of connections and pull within the Alliance.
They have been heavily influencing the construction of hte Normady. Why assuke it's the only thing they influenced?[/quote]

They didn't "heavily influence" anything. They encouraged them. The point being to study turian technology. The Alliance was going to make the Normady stealth system and tantalus with or without the turians. I'm not even sure what the turians brought to the table or what they got out of it as it seems they don't have tantalus drives or stealth ships themselves. I could be wrong.[/quote]

You denying Cerberus has influence, agents and pul lwihin the alliance?

Not that chaneing the word for a milder variant changes nothing. You yourself admit that you don't even know if Normady would have been made AT ALL without Cerberus..But certanly it wouldn't have been made as fast....cause that's what encourage/push kinda means. To move delopment FASTER.






[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I've yet to see you add anything pertinent ot back up your claims.[/quote]

That's something we both have in common.[/quote]

In your dreasm.. And I noticed you still haven't added anything pertinent.
Do you have anything or not?




[quote]
[quote]
[quote]
Nice try trying to avoid the questions, but you failed. I didn't ask you how long it took to simply construct it. Let me make it easier for you.

1. Did Cerberus  recreate the Normandy by using the Normandy SR-1 design schematics? Yes or No?
 
2. Did Cerberus design and develope their own stealth system from stratch? Yes or No?
 
3. Did Cerberus design and develope their own tantalus drive core from stratch? Yes or No?
 
4. Are you saying that Cerberus went through the entire development and manufacturing process from concept to reality in a 2 year timeframe? Yes or No?

Answer the questions.  Yes or No answers. Real simple. Even for a so-called educated man such as yourself. [/quote]

1. Yes, using the schematics as a base to work from
2. Don't know. Probably not.
3. Don't know. Probably not.
4. Yes. A few months in the design phase, the rest to build. Can be done.
[/quote]

1. So we agree that Cerberus did not design the Normandy themselves from stratch.

2. I'll take that as a "no", since you can't follow instructions. Interesting.

3. Yes, very interesting. That'll be a "no".

4. Most interesting. You just said in answer #1 that they did NOT design the SR-2 from stratch. In #2 and #3 you state they didn't develope the tantalus drice or stealth systems. But here in #4 you state they create it all from stratch in 2 years. You do realize you've contradicted yourself here, right.?[/quote]

No, we don't agree on anything. And I'll take that post of yours as a "you are correct Lotion". Because clearly, trying to shoehorn me into saying what you want me to say by these "instructions" is a masterfull debating strategy. Guess what - yes and no are not always sufficient answers. Don't take anyting I say as anything other than what I say.

And no, I'm not really contradicting myself. You're applying wordplay here to try and make it so.
One can make a ship from concept to reality in 2 years. And you said CONCEPT, not SCRATCH to boot. So no points for you on any on the points. Too bad.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But we do know.
Wihout Cerberus to push it, it wouldn't have been completed as fast...or not at all. And rember that Shepard got command of it right after it was done. Simply put, if it was finshed a month later, it would have already been too late.[/quote]

You don't know anything.

EDI says Cerberus encouraged the Alliance to co-develope the Normandy with the turians. It's very possible they were going to make it with or without the turians. That's how it sounds to me. All we know is that it borrows from turian ship design practices. The really big technological innovations seem to be all Alliance This would explain why the turians don't have tantalus drives or stealth systems. [/quote]

You do know what "push" means? What encouraing means. If you truly believe that the Normandy would have been finished just as fast wihout a Black Ops organization with influence pushing for hte entire project...then you're naive. Exceptionally naive.
You don't even know if hte normady would have built AT ALL wihout Cerberus.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By that time Sovereign would have already won.
By ensuring the right critical equipment was avilalbe just when it was needed, they effectively turned the tide of the battle.[/quote]

You're stretching it.

Yeah, and that butterfly whose butterfly effect that diverted a hurricane from cuba and saved Shepard's great great great grandfather effectively made it possible for Shepard to be born and hence turned the tide of the battle. Sorry, but Cerberus does not get credit for work they did not do. [/quote]

Redicolous example and you know it.
There's such a thing as critical an credible factors, and there's such thing as BS. But I assume you'd know all about the latter.
Weather you want to accept it or not, the fact is that Cerberus was a critical factor in Sheppards sucess.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Normady is hte only stealth ship. A frigate perfect for infiltration and black-ops. Which is exactly what Sheppard needed. Simply put, other ships couldn't have filled it's role.[/quote]

A fleet could have. And such a fleet would have gotten their earlier before Saren found that passageway. It would have ended at Ilos if not for the Council. Besides, it's not like Cerberus wanted the Alliance to co-develop the Normandy so that it could get Shepard past a geth fleet to land on Ilos. They wanted to observe turian construction practices. Again, they don't get credit for work they did not do.[/quote]

What fleet? In non-council space? Yeah, right - act of war, here we come.
That's ignoring the whole stealth thing, where you can't sneak up undetected on a planet or a repaer..and ignoring the fast Soverign would rape a common fleet.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you recall, the baby-reaper was already active. They didn't need the whole Earth.
They just needed to make sure other reapers arrive. And having an active reaper could only help in that regard.
[/quote]

Wow, did you seriously just say that?

A bunch of guys with small arms shot it to death. Um, sorry, but that thing wasn't complete. EDI's scans told us that much and well the fact that 3 people on foot killed it with small arms. It would have faired even worst against a starship. It was a "fetus". They hadn't even started on the super structure much less completed the organic parts. I think you get the point, right?
[/quote]


And without Sheppard to stop them, they would have completed it. Got you that?
and let's not forget indoctrination. This new reaper doesn't have to be as powerfull as Sovereign at all. It can indoctrinate, get Geth or others on it's side...
wihout Cerberus, nobody would even know it's there...nobody could ven reach it to destroy it before it grows more powerfull.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:30 .

[The Twilight God]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're full of it...and clearly not rewading properly. Do I really have to explain this?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you claim that the personal armor and weaposn are a melting pot, and is avilable to all; and hten you claim that other miltiary tech is not a melting pot, then you're making a huge leap and lapse in logic.[/quote]

So that FACTS are a leap of logic?

Are you sitting here and honestly going to tell me that the Armalite can't sell M-4 carbine while the Norhrop Grumman keep their B-2 stealth technology under lock and key? Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that it's all or nothing?

The manufactuers who supply the militaries own the rights to their products. They can sell to whoever they want. The M-4 is like the Avenger assault rifle. Some corporation in the Mass Effect universe developed it has a contract with the Alliance to supply their troops. Most militaries don't make their own weapons.  An American corporation designed the M-4, but you can't say the United States designed it. Likewise, a human coporation designed the Avenger, but you can't say the Alliance developed it. Those corporations aren't restricted in who they can sell to. They are in a business to make money, not just supply the Alliance.

The B-2 is akin to the Normandy's stealth systems. It was developed under a defense contract and paid for by the Department of Defense. Northrop Grumman cannot sell it commercially because it is DOD property. Those who work on the B-2 are DoD personnel at that point. People go to jail for decades or life for trying to sell that technology. 

The United States is one of the most militarily advanced countries on earth, if not THE most advanced. I guarantee you you can find any small arms and armor. Probably on ebay no less. Anybody with a license can buy a M16A2, night vision googles, the kevlar plates the army rangers wear, etc. I think you can even buy older fighter jets. Try to find a modern nuclear sub, F-22,  B-2, aircraft carrier, etc. on the open market. Likewise, I don't see the Asari or Salarians selling their most advanced cruisers to to highest bidder either.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You denying Cerberus has influence, agents and pul lwihin the alliance?[/quote]

No, I deny that it is some kind of undeniable fact that without their nudge to co-develope with the turians the Normandy SR-2 would not exist. It would be different? Yes, as we know the interior is based on turian design. But I have seen no evidence that the Normandy project plan didn't come first, then the nudge to include the turians came afterward as a reaction to the planned project. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In your dreasm.. And I noticed you still haven't added anything pertinent.
Do you have anything or not?[/quote]

You haven't added anything pertinent. Do you have anything or not?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, we don't agree on anything. And I'll take that post of yours as a "you are correct Lotion". Because clearly, trying to shoehorn me into saying what you want me to say by these "instructions" is a masterfull debating strategy. Guess what - yes and no are not always sufficient answers. Don't take anyting I say as anything other than what I say.[/quote]

"Yes" and "No" are sufficent in this case. You either think Cerberus invented a tantalus drive from stratch or you don't. If you "don't know" then you can't claim to think they do. Ergo, the answer is "No". There is no grey. Just black and white and you are trying to weasle out of it because you know you are wrong. Deal with it. I don't have time to deal with your injured pride. You got beaten in a forum debate. So what. Get over it. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And no, I'm not really contradicting myself. You're applying wordplay here to try and make it so.
One can make a ship from concept to reality in 2 years. And you said CONCEPT, not SCRATCH to boot. [/quote]

Concept to reality is building from stratch. I went out of my way to clarify this. Don't play stupid. You're embarrassing yourself. Concept is the first step after nothing. Are you going to play the "English is my not my first language defense" now? 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You do know what "push" means? What encouraing means. If you truly believe that the Normandy would have been finished just as fast wihout a Black Ops organization with influence pushing for hte entire project...then you're naive. Exceptionally naive.[/quote]

What? Now all projects require a black ops organization cheerleading from the sidelines to be done ina timely fashion?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Redicolous example and you know it.[/quote]

Claiming Cerberus saved the day in ME1 is ridiculous. And yes I know it.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There's such a thing as critical an credible factors, and there's such thing as BS. But I assume you'd know all about the latter. Weather you want to accept it or not, the fact is that Cerberus was a critical factor in Sheppards sucess.[/quote]

Cerberus did not save the Citadel. Shepard and crew did along with the 5th Fleet. Shepard did it without Cerberus's help. Period.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What fleet? In non-council space? Yeah, right - act of war, here we come.[/quote]

Flying around in unclaimed space is not an act of war. The geth had no trouble flying around. No terminus army showed up at Ilos to evict them. The Council uses that as an excuse for inaction. They are inept cowards. Udina/Anderson sent an Alliance fleet into Batarian space and destroyed their space mirrors. Now THAT is an act of war. And nothing came of it.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That's ignoring the whole stealth thing, where you can't sneak up undetected on a planet or a repaer..and ignoring the fast Soverign would rape a common fleet.[/quote]

Sovereign would detect and rape the Normandy. If the collectors can detect it a reaper sure as hell can.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And without Sheppard to stop them, they would have completed it. Got you that?[/quote]

No, they would have needed to cull Earth or Terra Nova. It says this in the game. Were you even paying attention?

They only had one cruiser. They are not taking a major planet with a single cruiser. Why do you think they only attacked little backwater terminus colonies?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

and let's not forget indoctrination. This new reaper doesn't have to be as powerfull as Sovereign at all. It can indoctrinate, get Geth or others on it's side...[/quote]

To other forumites: Is this guy really still talking about that reaper fetus doing what a full on reaper could not??? The same thing 3 people killed on foot with hand guns? Does anyone else feel themselves getting dumber by reading this guy's posts? The things people will say in stubborn defense of their wounded pride. Why can't people just admit when they are wrong?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
wihout Cerberus, nobody would even know it's there...nobody could ven reach it to destroy it before it grows more powerfull.

[/quote]

If Cerberus keeps it to themselves like the idiots they are, sure. No one else would have known. No disagreement there. Cerberus are idiots. They had a damned derelict reaper that has been dated 37 or so million years old and instead of convincing the galaxy that it wasn't a geth construct and getting people to take this reaper stuff more seriously they just sit on it. Oh, and get a bunch a scientists killed of course. IT's just not a Cerberus project unless all the scientist envolved die violent deaths.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:27 .

[Arijharn]

The Twilight God wrote...
No, I deny that it is some kind of undeniable fact that without their nudge to co-develope with the turians the Normandy SR-2 would not exist. It would be different? Yes, as we know the interior is based on turian design. But I have seen no evidence that the Normandy project plan didn't come first, then the nudge to include the turians came afterward as a reaction to the planned project. 

You don't really have a reason to doubt the narrative though, at least, a reason within the game to doubt the narrative. There is no evidence against something mainly because you can't prove a negative. You either have evidence to support a positive or you don't, the fact of the matter is that if the design of the Normandy is based on Turian philosophies, then it would seem to me that the Turian design philosophies were inducted quite a bit earlier into the specifications (read; at the beginning) which I think makes your argument moot.

Otherwise you may as well argue your point of view for everything that is 'under the sun' that has been invented (reasoning, well, the M-4 would have eventually been invented if Armalite didn't... because how on Earth are you going to support your argument?), which makes your argument... well, honestly a bit stupid (read: pointless, as in 'why-are-you-wasting-everyone's-time-with-this') if I'm reading you right (and I admit, this may be wrong because I'm so utterly brain frazzled at the moment I'm amazed I can type as coherently as I am -- wait am I?).

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you claim that the personal armor and weaposn are a melting pot, and is avilable to all; and hten you claim that other miltiary tech is not a melting pot, then you're making a huge leap and lapse in logic.[/quote]

So that FACTS are a leap of logic?

Are you sitting here and honestly going to tell me that the Armalite can't sell M-4 carbine while the Norhrop Grumman keep their B-2 stealth technology under lock and key? Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that it's all or nothing? [/quote]

What facts? Youre making generalized conclusions wihout anything solid to back them up.
M4? M4 is hardly a top-of-the-line, high-tech rifle. It's a mass-produced, general purpose rifle.

Your'e the one going on that technology is tandardized, and then base the tech level on that. And no, one cna't buy everything on the market, not even today. I can gaurtantee you that a blakc ops special forces operative is going ot have better equipment than your regular soldier. Tehy will have acess to stuff that still hasn't hit the market, and expensive equipment that your regular soldier jsut can't afford.
Or do you really belive that you can buy the Future Force Warrior equipment on e-bay?




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In your dreasm.. And I noticed you still haven't added anything pertinent.
Do you have anything or not?[/quote]

You haven't added anything pertinent. Do you have anything or not?[/quote]

Avoiding the question again. I ask again - what are your crednitial? On what do you base your engineering claims? Your sources? Your experiteese in that area?




[quote]

"Yes" and "No" are sufficent in this case. You either think Cerberus invented a tantalus drive from stratch or you don't. If you "don't know" then you can't claim to think they do. Ergo, the answer is "No". There is no grey. Just black and white and you are trying to weasle out of it because you know you are wrong. Deal with it. I don't have time to deal with your injured pride. You got beaten in a forum debate. So what. Get over it. [/quote]

No, they are not.
And it's actually irrelevant. Your point is totalyl irrelevant ot begin with. It doens't even matter if Cerberus invented the Tantalus drive or not.
It's like claiming that ship designers don't engineer ships because an anchor or nuclear reactor is already known technology/design. Which is utter stupidity.

What yo udont' want to admit is htat you never had a proper case to begin with. Look yourself in the mirror and you'll see the looser in this debate.




[quote]
Concept to reality is building from stratch. I went out of my way to clarify this. Don't play stupid. You're embarrassing yourself. Concept is the first step after nothing. Are you going to play the "English is my not my first language defense" now? [/quote]

No, I'm playing the "you have no idea what your'e talking about" card.
You're quite simply wrong. All creative work ALWAYS builds upoing pre-existing work. Nothing springs out from vacuum fully formed. And never will.
Your whole point of argument is completely and utterly irrelevant and sensless to begin with.

If I were to design the worlds longest-ranged sniper rifle, and it turns out that you have to make a critical sniper shot to save hte world, and only that sniper rifle has the range and power needed...are you saying that my contribution in building that sniper rifle is irrelevant, because poeple before me have been building sniper rifles?
It's just daft.
Wether you like it or not, Cerberus contribution to stopping hte Reapers and Collectors has been CRITICAL.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You do know what "push" means? What encouraing means. If you truly believe that the Normandy would have been finished just as fast wihout a Black Ops organization with influence pushing for hte entire project...then you're naive. Exceptionally naive.[/quote]

What? Now all projects require a black ops organization cheerleading from the sidelines to be done ina timely fashion? [/quote]

No, but what does timely mean in the context?
If Cerberus has been hurrying things along, that means the project is finished sooner. And sometimes having something avilable today, and not tomorrow, is cruicial in  war effort. History thought us that much.
ME1 took place in a very short time span. If the Normandy was finished just a few weeks later, it might have well been game over for humanity, as by that time Sheppard wouldnt' have got it and Sovereign would have already conquered the Citadel.
So yes.. A project being pushed bysomoene and a project wihout such pressure do have a tendancy to not be completed as fast.




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There's such a thing as critical an credible factors, and there's such thing as BS. But I assume you'd know all about the latter. Weather you want to accept it or not, the fact is that Cerberus was a critical factor in Sheppards sucess.[/quote]

Cerberus did not save the Citadel. Shepard and crew did along with the 5th Fleet. Shepard did it without Cerberus's help. Period.[/quote]

Sheppard would be in no position to help without the Normady. Neither would he have the intel necessary wihout it.
Without a stelath frigate, he couldn't have sneaked upon all the locations where he did. He woudln't have caught his enemies by surprise. He wouldn't have gathered the intel or surive the escape.

This is a rather obvious fact.



[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What fleet? In non-council space? Yeah, right - act of war, here we come.[/quote]

Flying around in unclaimed space is not an act of war. The geth had no trouble flying around. No terminus army showed up at Ilos to evict them. The Council uses that as an excuse for inaction. They are inept cowards. Udina/Anderson sent an Alliance fleet into Batarian space and destroyed their space mirrors. Now THAT is an act of war. And nothing came of it.




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That's ignoring the whole stealth thing, where you can't sneak up undetected on a planet or a repaer..and ignoring the fast Soverign would rape a common fleet.[/quote]

Sovereign would detect and rape the Normandy. If the collectors can detect it a reaper sure as hell can.[/quote]

Speculation. We dont' know how hte collectors did it.
We know Sovereign didn't detect the Normandy when it arrived on Eden Prime. Saren was completley surprised. Not to mention that Soverign isn't the only enemy one has to avoid (Geth).
shepard use Normandy stealth advantage in more htan one situation.[/quote]






[quote]

To other forumites: Is this guy really still talking about that reaper fetus doing what a full on reaper could not??? The same thing 3 people killed on foot with hand guns? Does anyone else feel themselves getting dumber by reading this guy's posts? The things people will say in stubborn defense of their wounded pride. Why can't people just admit when they are wrong?[/quote]

Appeal to Audience. Antoehr classic debating tactic of fail.
but to anshwer your question - yes. I do feel dumber reading your posts- In fact, I'm getting a migrene-

[The Twilight God]

Arijharn wrote...

You don't really have a reason to doubt the narrative though, at least, a reason within the game to doubt the narrative.

First, the narrative does not state what you claim it does. In no words does it ever explicitely state that there was an ambigious co-developement request without any direction or set goal that came first and then the Normandy concept was born out of that co-development after the fact.
 
Second, if it was completely co-developed, why does only the Alliance have stealth systems and tantalus drives?
 
You don't have to agree with me. You can choose to believe whatever you want, but don't pretend like you know anything. You made some assumptions, came to a conclusion and have been treating that conclusion as fact for so long that you are incapable of thinking outside the box you've made for yourself.

Arijharn wrote...

There is no evidence against something mainly because you can't prove a negative. You either have evidence to support a positive or you don't, the fact of the matter is that if the design of the Normandy is based on Turian philosophies, then it would seem to me that the Turian design philosophies were inducted quite a bit earlier into the specifications (read; at the beginning) which I think makes your argument moot.

Incorrect. You're making the assertion that they would have to have started constructing the physical ship and then included the turians. There is quite a bit of research, design and planning before construction. The Normandy's stealth system make it fundamentally different from other vessels. You can't just up and make a flying heat capacitor on a whelm.

What I am saying is that the Alliance engineers decided to make a new class of reconnaissance frigate. At this point it's just a concept on paper. The Alliance could have very well been doing their own research, designing and planning for some time. Once Cerberus got word of this pre-existing project they encouraged the Alliance to co-develop the ship with the turians so that they could observe turian technolopgies and ship building practices. The design and construction phase then continued with the turians.

The tantalus and stealth systems are Alliance technology. If the turians developed it then they have just as much right to it. But it seems to me that only the Alliance has it. This, to me, imples the turians didn't co-develop those technologies. Ergo, things were already underway before TIM saw an opportunity to get intel on turian tech and warship construction techniques.

Arijharn wrote...

Otherwise you may as well argue your point of view for everything that is 'under the sun' that has been invented (reasoning, well, the M-4 would have eventually been invented if Armalite didn't...

Armalite designed the M-4. Cerberus did not design the Normandy. So your point is moot.

[Someone With Mass]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could someone explain how Cerberus is a dried out cliche?

Look up any kind of fictional paramilitary group that goes against the government because according to them, the government is wrong, and they believe they can do the government's job better.
 
There are plenty of them. Cerberus isn't original in any way.

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...

Guys like Something With Mass are bitter that their Sheploo can't mack as hard as TIM.

and If I have my way in ME3 my femshep will be TIM's latest catch. :happy:

Yeah, because I'm jelous of a fictional character...a fictional character that's so incompetent, everything he touches dies.

And let's not forget about the group he has little to no control over.

I think I can live without being as pathetic as him.

[Undertone]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could someone explain how Cerberus is a dried out cliche?

Look up any kind of fictional paramilitary group that goes against the government because according to them, the government is wrong, and they believe they can do the government's job better.
 
There are plenty of them. Cerberus isn't original in any way.

Something with Mass is one of those type of people on this forum that can't comprehend other type of opinion or thought on a matter. Ignoring him just works best.

No **** Sherlock. ME has tons of stuff inspired or influenced from elsewhere.

Seriously I get you hate Cerberus, but man enough crying is enough. You don't have to worry anyway. I'm sure Bioware will reward your stupid self-righteousness by allowing to kill TIM etc. and Paragon will equal everything right and sunshine and bunnies.

Modifié par Undertone, 20 juillet 2011 - 01:44 .

[Stormrider 15]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Both

I agree with this guy. BioWare may have had the main plot/story mapped out, but when it comes to certain things and details they are making it up as they go along.

i remember reading about me2 after me1 came out,and it was before the release of me2, and game informer had an article on how the vorcha were still being integrated into te story, and how bw was planning on making them a super advanced race then thought wth they can't be because they are just carniverous scavengers... so they had a storyline, but they make up parts of it as they go along.

[Someone With Mass]

Undertone wrote...

Seriously I get you hate Cerberus, but man enough crying is enough. You don't have to worry anyway. I'm sure Bioware will reward your stupid self-righteousness by allowing to kill TIM etc. and Paragon will equal everything right and sunshine and bunnies.

With the amount of Renegade puss-fests I've seen on BSN, I hope they do.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could someone explain how Cerberus is a dried out cliche?

Look up any kind of fictional paramilitary group that goes against the government because according to them, the government is wrong, and they believe they can do the government's job better.
 
There are plenty of them. Cerberus isn't original in any way.

I don't like Cerberus. I'm gonna take a stand and say they're not good.

[The Twilight God]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What facts? Youre making generalized conclusions wihout anything solid to back them up.
M4? M4 is hardly a top-of-the-line, high-tech rifle. It's a mass-produced, general purpose rifle.[/quote]

Yes, a mass-produced general purpose rifle that is a U.S. Military standard issue weapon just like the avenger is a mass-produced general purpose rifle that is an Alliance standard issue weapon.

I'm not making any conclusions. I'm just stating facts.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Your'e the one going on that technology is tandardized, and then base the tech level on that. And no, one cna't buy everything on the market, not even today. I can gaurtantee you that a blakc ops special forces operative is going ot have better equipment than your regular soldier. Tehy will have acess to stuff that still hasn't hit the market, and expensive equipment that your regular soldier jsut can't afford.[/quote]

I agree. However, how many Black Ops special forces equivalent enemies do you encounter in Mass Effect 2? Only one, and even then only in a DLC. As was mentioned earlier, Tela Vasir was better equip then all the other mooks you encounter. Her armor is top of the line. You could consider the Shadow Broker himself "elite". His equipment was definitely beyond Shepards.

Considering that we do not fight against the asari, turian or salarian special forces we cannot ascertain what weapons and armor their militaries have delevoped that are property of their DoD equivalent. We never see it. Therefore, you can't say Cerberus is more advanced then anyone else seeing as you are comparing Cerberus R&D to commercially available goods. I would hope that Cerberus R&D produces better equipment than commercial goods; otherwise, why have an R&D department if everything on the open market is better than the stuff they develop. Your problem is you act as if only Cerberus has an R&D department capable of producing superior items compared to the open market. If ME3 I assume we'll be getting stuff from the Alliance R&D and maybe even stuff from other races given the circumstances. I doubt all the new weapons and armor will be subpar compared to Cerberus stuff. I'm willing to bet it'll be better.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Avoiding the question again. I ask again - what are your crednitial? On what do you base your engineering claims? Your sources? Your experiteese in that area?[/quote]

I guess we're both avoiding the question. You don't have any credentials and neither do I. I can say I've spoken to engineers working for NGNN, but like your claims it means nothing. It doesn't prove anything.

But seriously to answer your question. I have as much expertise in the area of eezo-based extrasolar engineering as you do.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And it's actually irrelevant. Your point is totalyl irrelevant ot begin with. It doens't even matter if Cerberus invented the Tantalus drive or not.[/quote]

It matters if you're claiming Cerberus created the SR-2 from stratch, which you did in question #4. Too bad for you, you contradicted yourself in question #2 and #3. You admit they did not develop the very things that make it what it is: Tantalus drive core and stealth systems. Without those it's just another frigate. Whoopty-do. Cerberus can build a normal frigate. The fact that they fattened it up and added some extra rooms does not involve a complete redesign on a functional level. If Cerberus made it from stratch they wouldn't need the SR-1 schematics.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If I were to design the worlds longest-ranged sniper rifle, and it turns out that you have to make a critical sniper shot to save hte world, and only that sniper rifle has the range and power needed...are you saying that my contribution in building that sniper rifle is irrelevant, because poeple before me have been building sniper rifles?
[/quote]

You're contribution isn't worthless, but I'm not going to give you credit for inventing the sniper rifle because you made the firing pin with alloy X instead of metal Y. Or because yours has a 1.1 meter barrel vs the original 1 meter barrel. You give Cerberus WAY too much credit for making a bigger version of something that already exists. Or in the case of the SR-1, you give them full credit for saving the galaxy because they wanted to study turian tech. You have no evidence whatsoever that Cerberus had anything to do with the Normandy stealth systems. If they did then the turians would also have stealth capability.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, but what does timely mean in the context?
If Cerberus has been hurrying things along, that means the project is finished sooner. And sometimes having something avilable today, and not tomorrow, is cruicial in  war effort. History thought us that much.[/quote]

Encouraged does not mean "rushed" or "speed up".

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ME1 took place in a very short time span. If the Normandy was finished just a few weeks later, it might have well been game over for humanity, as by that time Sheppard wouldnt' have got it and Sovereign would have already conquered the Citadel.
So yes.. A project being pushed bysomoene and a project wihout such pressure do have a tendancy to not be completed as fast.[/quote]

ME1 took place over the course of several months. 

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sheppard would be in no position to help without the Normady. Neither would he have the intel necessary wihout it.
Without a stelath frigate, he couldn't have sneaked upon all the locations where he did. He woudln't have caught his enemies by surprise. He wouldn't have gathered the intel or surive the escape.

This is a rather obvious fact.[/quote]

The stealth systems are human tech, not turian. Therefore, your point is moot. The turian involvement did not produce the very features you claim saved the galaxy.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Speculation. We dont' know how hte collectors did it.[/quote]

They did. It doesn't matter how.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We know Sovereign didn't detect the Normandy when it arrived on Eden Prime.[/quote]
 
Whay we know is that he didn't destroy the Normandy. Benezia and Saren knew there was an Alliance ship there  once they got back onboard so Sovereign must have detected it.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Saren was completley surprised. [/quote]

Saren was angry that a human used the beacon. He was never surprised. He didn't even know Shepard was on the planet as he left before you could reach him. It was not till he was back on the reaper that he found out about the Normandy. If the Normandy was undetectable all they would know is that a force on the planet stopped the bombs from going off.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
yes. I do feel dumber[/quote]
 
I'm not surprise.  I take you you've put the idiotic thought that the reaper fetus was going to do what Soveriegn could not behind you?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:16 .