303 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

The quarians underestimated the geth's networking ability. Cerberus can't even fail at that, because they're not even close to that point.

And for every human biotic, there's at least a dozen dead humans that didn't survive the exposure.

Not to mention that I've never seen the point in human biotics. If you want super soldiers, there are much better and safer ways to do that.

Like Shepard.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 16 juillet 2011 - 12:43 .

[Ianamus]

Phaedon wrote...

Cerberus Failures:

SSV Geneva - Team killed, last survivor points out to Cerberus.
Pragia - Cell goes rogue, all personnel killed. Subject escapes.
Rachni experiments - Failed, rachni unleashed accidentally.
Lazarus Project - Most staff die, as well as security resources.
Ascension Project - Operative abandons Cerberus with intel, failed.
Attack on Quarian Fleet - Failed. Quarians kick their asses.
Overlord - Failed. Almost all personnel killed because some one with a medical degree didn't realize that no brain functions correctly after being forced to be awake for hours.
Reaper IFF - Indoctrinated, all personnel killed.
Retribution - Personnel on the Retribution base die or are detained, several operatives detained, bases raided, subject escapes, several front companies uncovered.
Invasion - Massive failure
ME1 - Potential failure of protecting bases

I'm not a big fan of Cerberus, as a plot device or in-universe, but you cannot just go listing all of these as failures when many were not.

The Reaper IFF team did manage to obtain a Reaper IFF, which allowed Shepard to travel through the Omega relay

The Lazarus Project's goal was to rebuild Shepard, and that was a success.

The attack on the Migrant fleet was a means to give TIM access to intel on it. It may look like he failed, but look closer at the Shadow Broker dossier on Cerberus:

"Messages sent today to:
-Citadel
-Illium
-Omega
-Earth
-Horizon
-Eden Prime
-Thessia
-Palaven
-Tuchanka
-Migrant Fleet "


Overall many of these were successes.

Modifié par EJ107, 16 juillet 2011 - 12:50 .

[Sylvianus]

Mesina2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And how many projects does Cerberus run at a time?

Half a dozen?



And since when is CIA incompetent @Sylvianus?

Since the CIA failed to kill Castro. Watergate and other matters. When they failed to rescue the hostages in Iran.

It is well known that people make fun of the CIA. When in fact she did a good job in the shadow.

As has been said, the operations when they fail, are those best known.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 16 juillet 2011 - 12:50 .

[Nizzemancer]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The quarians underestimated the geth's networking ability. Cerberus can't even fail at that, because they're not even close to that point.

And for every human biotic, there's at least a dozen dead humans that didn't survive the exposure.

Not to mention that I've never seen the point in human biotics. If you want super soldiers, there are much better and safer ways to do that.

Like Shepard.

You mean like...Overlord DLC?

what does the deaths have to do with the success of the operation? Cerberus is not interested in casualty-rates if they can get some new gadget or freaky jedi-like powers out of it.

[The Twilight God]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Actually you can use the research terminal without Mordin.

I'm glad you could. I couldn't. The room is off limits until he is recruited.

[Arijharn]

Phaedon wrote...
Cerberus Failures:

SSV Geneva - Team killed, last survivor points out to Cerberus.

Not quite: The actual mission, i.e., the theft of antimatter, was successful. So it wasn't a 'failure' in the sense that Cerberus got what they were after. It was a failure in the sense however that Cerberus was fingerpointed by the survivor but for all we know that was for 'street cred.'

Phaedon wrote...
Pragia - Cell goes rogue, all personnel killed. Subject escapes.

Yes and no. Yes the cell did go rogue and the subject escapes, but at the end of the day Cerberus proved that a human super-biotic is not only possible, but highly capable. As far as high level concept goes Cerberus succeeded.

Phaedon wrote...
Rachni experiments - Failed, rachni unleashed accidentally.

Failed only because some Spectre involved themselves in the situation. 

Phaedon wrote...
Lazarus Project - Most staff die, as well as security resources.

No, this didn't outright 'fail.' Shephard was brought back to life and the SR-2 was successfully constructed. To quote Kael'thalas... the staff and material asset destruction were 'momentary setbacks.' 

Phaedon wrote...
Ascension Project - Operative abandons Cerberus with intel, failed.
Attack on Quarian Fleet - Failed. Quarians kick their asses.

I haven't read the books so I can't really comment on at least these other than from what I remember Zulu saying in the past (I think) that it wasn't an 'attack on the Quarian Fleet' in so much as an operation to get back Gillian. I think there's a difference between say sending ships in to attack fleet assets and something that reads more like a black ops team with a specific goal. Regardless though; that failed because Gillian got away and Cerberus was made.

Phaedon wrote...
Overlord - Failed. Almost all personnel killed because some one with a medical degree didn't realize that no brain functions correctly after being forced to be awake for hours.

Maybe in your game saves. From what I remember though; the Overlord project succeeded in the sense that the concept was proven and the Geth had their messianic figure to follow. I will agree though that Dr. Archer's enthusiasm for success over-rode his good sense though.

Phaedon wrote...
Reaper IFF - Indoctrinated, all personnel killed.

No, whatever the team behind the Reaper IFF's original mission was probably failed. Regardless though; the Reaper IFF was not only positively identified from within the needle-in-the-haystack that the Reaper carcass was, but successfully extracted.
Obviously the attack came quickly though if the IFF was left literally on a nearby worktable though.

Phaedon wrote...
Retribution - Personnel on the Retribution base die or are detained, several operatives detained, bases raided, subject escapes, several front companies uncovered.
Invasion - Massive failure

Haven't read, don't know but going to give you largely the benefit of a doubt.

Phaedon wrote...
ME1 - Potential failure of protecting bases

I agree and I don't. I think it's obvious that their prime defense was invisibility that was largely successful until you got information that those bases were there... mainly because you can't actually go into those bases otherwise (iirc, I must admit it's been years since I played ME1 ) The Cerberus bases were revealed from reading datalogs etc from somewhere else, which had a snowball effect.

I don't think you can get away though with saying they fail because they 'failed to protect their bases' because we're talking about Shephard here, the PC. If someone killed you you just quickloaded the auto-save and tried again.


I think your biggest problem is that you equate 'employee'  death as auto mission failure, which makes sense for day to day life, but we're talking about essentially military or scientific endeavour here from a group with either exceptional morality or little morality (depending on where you stand).

Let me try and illustrate by example. Say you're in the military and you have orders to destroy a communications tower. You do so but you die in the attempt. Now, is that a mission 'failure' or not? Maybe for you it is since you know, you're dead... but in terms of the 'big picture' I'd say otherwise since you've been successful because you still took out the enemy's communications tower and your side has gained all the benefits from your actions. I think if you don't understand this difference though; you probably never will in which case I apologise for wasting your time.

[The Twilight God]

REgentleman wrote...

Again, the breakthrough on geth shielding, the redundant shield generator and smart targeting go a bit beyond routine improvement. They really are things one could call a technological advancement in the field.

You say this, yet you do not give any explaination as to how these things represent a technological advancement. Is it because you can't? 

Let's take a look at this stuff.

Geth shielding is geth shielding. The geth developed it. It's Legion's shields. No one else on the team benefits from it.

Redundant Field Generator is a software that seemlessly transitions from one shield generator to another. In essence, it's just two shield arrays on one set of armor. One goes down and the other kicks in. Hardly mind blowing advancement. It's a common sense improvement. They took what already existed and "made it bigger".

Smart targeting is not an improvement at all. Recalibrating existing tech or using it for a different purpose than intended is not technological adavancement. Technological advantance entails making newer better technologies. Not simply overclocking the CPU from stock setting.

[Someone With Mass]

Nizzemancer wrote...

You mean like...Overlord DLC?

what does the deaths have to do with the success of the operation? Cerberus is not interested in casualty-rates if they can get some new gadget or freaky jedi-like powers out of it.

That's what makes it so unbelievably stupid. They're sacrificing people that could've been of good use to them beyond that project.

And eventually, they're going to run out of people, and their efficiency when it comes to studies and technological developments will drop like a rock.

At which point, they'll become a liability.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:32 .

[The Twilight God]

Adanu wrote...

When you actually read the lore, the books, read between the lines,

"read between the lines" = I don't have a counter argument or any idea how I'm going to defend my possition so... U gotta no teh hidden cipher!!! U R stupidz!! LOLZ!!!

[DCarter]

It does seem at this point that we spent the entirety of me2 learning that Cerberus wasn't all bad just have bioware flick the switch and turn Cerberus back into evil badguys in ME3 through the magical qucikfix of a little old reaper magic.

[The Twilight God]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

What bugs me is that since after Mass Effect 2, ALL STORIES have been about Cerberus/or have Cerberus involved. Seriously, enough of these guys. The galaxy is/should been bigger than them.

Correction. After Mass Effect 1 all stories have been about Cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Just for the record, the rachni experiments were doomed to fail either way, since they didn't have a queen to control them.

Cerberus planted a bomb on the quarian ship for absolutely no good reason, which would've killed hundreds if the captain hadn't disabled it. Just because they couldn't retrieve Gillian. Idiots got what they deserved.

A biotic is useless if you can't control it.

I rather doubt the crew aboard the Reaper had only the goal to bring the IFF back, as they clearly spent days aboard the thing. Not to mention that it wouldn't require hundreds of people. So that's a a fail.

And Overlord was just made out of stupidity in so many ways, so it was a failure the second it started.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 16 juillet 2011 - 01:44 .

[Arijharn]

I don't think Overlord was 'stupid' as a concept. Despite Archer's actual methods he did bring up a good point. If you can prevent a war from even happening, why shouldn't you take the step? Preventing a million mothers from mourning a million sons is actually pretty noble.

Hell, even giving the Geth a religious figure to follow was pretty ingenious really. It doesn't 'brainwash' them like Legion's own re-write 'cure' because it takes advantage of a need they already have. The Geth are free to act independently from Overlord if they want (at least, that's how I took it) it's just that Overlord's pretty 'persuasive.'

Overlord 'failed' in two cases imo:
a) The lack of care given to David
A lack of a suitable 'failsafe.'

David could be sorted out by enforced breaks etc and a more suitable failsafe wouldn't be just to isolate the command bunker with 3 locks, but to physically isolate David from connectivity with the 'wifi' network more than anything else.

As for the 'biotic is useless if you can't control it' I would agree if I thought that the express purpose of the experiment was solely focused on Jack as the 'end product.' As it is; the proof of concept of a super-biotic was more important than the actual super-biotic. At least, that's how I interpreted the experiment. In other words, the means of making Jack the way she was is more useful to the experiment and Cerberus than Jack herself, because the process could always be 'improved' later on. In fact, I thought it was implied that this was the case, at least if your Shephard was a Biotic with his/her new dangfangled Cerberus implants.

Modifié par Arijharn, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:10 .

[-Skorpious-]

Cerberus is the most disappointing element introduced in the entire series. Think about it -

• ME2's entire plot is centered around Cerberus and not the reaper threat
• Cerberus is a large player in the events of Redemption
• Ascension's entire plot is centered around a Cerberus project
• ME2's first DLC, Overlord, decided to be original and have Shepard investigate a Cerberus experiment
• Retribution is yet another plot which deals with Cerberus and their experiments
• Invasion details the rise of Cerberus and the Illusive Man
• Upcoming novel Deception goes above and beyond expectations by placing Cerberus in the spotlight...again.
• Hell, in ME3 Cerberus makes up 40% of the enemies Shepard fights in-game which, if dev tweets, comments and interviews were not enough, essentially confirms that Cerberus will once again unnecessarily hog the spotlight.

What happened to exploring the final frontier ala Mass Effect? What happened to dealing with and discovering alien races besides the pro-human terrorist cell with a strict 'humans only!' policy? In short, Cerberus functioned best when they were an enigmatic splinter cell group with ties to the Alliance, yet were major behind-the-scenes players in past and present events.

I watch ME's triumphant ending scenes, sit through the amazing credit sequence, become enthralled listening to Vigil play on the main menu...then I weep for the potential the series could have had, yet blew by repeatedly beating a dead horse.

Mass Effect deserved better than Cerberus.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:15 .

[Arijharn]

The Twilight God wrote...
Geth shielding is geth shielding. The geth developed it. It's Legion's shields. No one else on the team benefits from it.

'In the lore' I think it's been said that Geth technology and the Alliance/human technology has been remarkably concurrent... specifically in regards to stealth technology.

But you know, the geth shield technology wasn't actually on Legion when you got him, you had to 'research' it.. which would mean that eventually Cerberus got that info if they didn't already have it.

TTG wrote...
Redundant Field Generator is a software that seemlessly transitions from one shield generator to another. In essence, it's just two shield arrays on one set of armor. One goes down and the other kicks in. Hardly mind blowing advancement. It's a common sense improvement. They took what already existed and "made it bigger".

True, and yet no one else has done this 'simple concept' as far as we know (and there is no point arguing otherwise because you just don't know. The Alliance hasn't got it, the Turian's haven't either. It's Shephard, which Cerberus provided (after a 'fee')

TTG wrote...
Smart targeting is not an improvement at all. Recalibrating existing tech or using it for a different purpose than intended is not technological adavancement. Technological advantance entails making newer better technologies. Not simply overclocking the CPU from stock setting.

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but it's an advancement that no one else has, which pretty makes it an improvement by all standard measurement.

[FRANCESCO84Inn]

This is a page of comics Incursion, look at the data pad that holds Aria, there are scitte entire population of the human outposts in the galaxy, it is logical to think the aliens comisc Invansion is moved by the Reepers, and finding that Omega systems terminus is the ideal place for the first assault

Modifié par FRANCESCO84Inn, 16 juillet 2011 - 02:24 .

[DCarter]

-Skorpious- wrote...


Cerberus is the most disappointing element introduced in the entire series. Think about it -

• ME2's entire plot is centered around Cerberus and not the reaper threat
• Cerberus is a large player in the events of Redemption
• Ascension's entire plot is centered around a Cerberus project
• ME2's first DLC, Overlord, decided to be original and have Shepard investigate a Cerberus experiment
• Retribution is yet another plot which deals with Cerberus and their experiments
• Invasion details the rise of Cerberus and the Illusive Man
• Upcoming novel Deception goes above and beyond expectations by placing Cerberus in the spotlight...again.
• Hell, in ME3 Cerberus makes up 40% of the enemies Shepard fights in-game which, if dev tweets, comments and interviews were not enough, essentially confirms that Cerberus will once again unnecessarily hog the spotlight.

What happened to exploring the final frontier ala Mass Effect? What happened to dealing with and discovering alien races besides the pro-human terrorist cell with a strict 'humans only!' policy? In short, Cerberus functioned best when they were an enigmatic splinter cell group with ties to the Alliance, yet were major behind-the-scenes players in past and present events.

I watch ME's triumphant ending scenes, sit through the amazing credit sequence, become enthralled listening to Vigil play on the main menu...then I weep for the potential the series could have had, yet blew by repeatedly beating a dead horse.

Mass Effect deserved better than Cerberus.

Where's the 40% quote from?

[-Skorpious-]

Read the dev comment -

http://social.biowar...81354/2#7682958

[Someone With Mass]

Overlord is stupid in the sense that it based the VI on some ability David Archer shouldn't even have, since it has nothing to do with math, and Legion said that verbal communications are much more inefficient than the way geth are communicating. When David opens his mouth, the geth have had at least ten conversations between themselves before he utters a word.

It's an insult at best.

[esalor]

-Skorpious- wrote...

I watch ME's triumphant ending scenes, sit through the amazing credit sequence, become enthralled listening to Vigil play on the main menu...then I weep for the potential the series could have had, yet blew by repeatedly beating a dead horse.

Mass Effect deserved better than Cerberus.

This.

My favorite moments in ME2 were Mordin's loyalty mission and the LotSB. Both made so much more appealing and interesing by having nothing to do with humanity in general or Cerberus in particular.

Modifié par esalor, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:04 .

[REgentleman]

The Twilight God wrote...

REgentleman wrote...

Again, the breakthrough on geth shielding, the redundant shield generator and smart targeting go a bit beyond routine improvement. They really are things one could call a technological advancement in the field.

You say this, yet you do not give any explaination as to how these things represent a technological advancement. Is it because you can't? 

Let's take a look at this stuff.

Geth shielding is geth shielding. The geth developed it. It's Legion's shields. No one else on the team benefits from it.

Redundant Field Generator is a software that seemlessly transitions from one shield generator to another. In essence, it's just two shield arrays on one set of armor. One goes down and the other kicks in. Hardly mind blowing advancement. It's a common sense improvement. They took what already existed and "made it bigger".

Smart targeting is not an improvement at all. Recalibrating existing tech or using it for a different purpose than intended is not technological adavancement. Technological advantance entails making newer better technologies. Not simply overclocking the CPU from stock setting.

I thought there was also a general shield upgrade that applied to everybody else on the team, gotten from co-opting the geth shields. IIRC the lore stated the whole rest of the galaxy had been working on cracking the geth's shields and tech in general. It may not be that big a deal, but on some level it does count in their favor as far as their "Cerberus does what _____ don't" mantra goes.

Again, the redundant generator was IIRC something so many people were working on figuring out, and, well, Cerberus finally did it. It may have been "common sense," but supposedly it was a pretty hard idea to enable with "common sense" alone. What I'm wondering is if they could go beyond a single redundant generator and have multiple levels of shielding that would spring up one after the other. Would that not change the dynamics of infantry combat? What if they could do the same thing for (space) naval battles?

May have to agree on the smart targeting thing, given smart targeting itself is not their invention, but had anybody else applied it to light firearms?The gun taking into account recoil and the user's grip's stability when trying to calculate what it has to do to place a shot best seems like, in turn, it would cause less to be demanded of the soldiers, and they could win fights in part more off the strength of their tech. If that's not a technological advancement, then, uh, help me out here, what is?

I think our points may be mismatched, and regardless I'm not exactly sure what you're asking of Cerberus. As far as I'm concerned, any upgrade has the potential to change the way things play out simply by being one more variable, even if only by the slimmest of margins. Simply the fact that Cerberus is the one to make these upgrades seems that it should demonstrate some level of competence, but you seem to think that's not enough because they didn't reinvent everything they touch at every step. Are you looking for a specific kind of practical outcome from their research, or what? Because given my sub-adequate knowledge of the workings of the ME universe outside what Shepard does, I might find that rather difficult to respond to.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

The Twilight God wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

What bugs me is that since after Mass Effect 2, ALL STORIES have been about Cerberus/or have Cerberus involved. Seriously, enough of these guys. The galaxy is/should been bigger than them.

Correction. After Mass Effect 1 all stories have been about Cerberus.

Thing is, I liked Cerberus involvement in ME2. I mean the major plot of the Collectors. But for subsequent stories I wanted something else.

[Nashiktal]

Correct, while not directly taken from the geth tech, Cerberus uses some of the geth methods of shield use that you can use as an upgrade for squad shields.

I can't remember the name though, it wasn't the redundant one...

[DCarter]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Read the dev comment -

http://social.biowar...81354/2#7682958

Damn that's a dissapointment. Reapers invaded and we spend almosth alf the game fighting cerberus. I can put up with that if the story behind cerberus attacking shepard is explained in a way that doesn't take a massive **** on the events in mass effect 2. Still with this being the final game i was hoping for it to be largely focused on the reapers.

[The Spamming Troll]

bioware only know how to make one kind of story.

havent you played their games?