303 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

REgentleman wrote...

Again, the redundant generator was IIRC something so many people were working on figuring out, and, well, Cerberus finally did it. It may have been "common sense," but supposedly it was a pretty hard idea to enable with "common sense" alone.

Mass Effect 2 simply did a ****** poor job of psuedo-retconning Mass Effect 1. Nearly every upgrade you get in ME2 is a skill in ME1. Shield Boost is Redundant Field Generator. The technology existed 2 years prior. So what is the significance of Cerberus's "breakthrough"?  They made it automatic? Whoopty-do.

REgentleman wrote...

May have to agree on the smart targeting thing, given smart targeting itself is not their invention, but had anybody else applied it to light firearms?

Yes, in ME1 it was standard software on every weapon. It is what accounts for the "target assist" option under settings. There is a codex entry and everything.

REgentleman wrote...

I think our points may be mismatched, and regardless I'm not exactly sure what you're asking of Cerberus.

I'm asking nothing of them. You are the one claiming weapons R&D is their saving grace. I merely disagree.

REgentleman wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, any upgrade has the potential to change the way things play out simply by being one more variable, even if only by the slimmest of margins. Simply the fact that Cerberus is the one to make these upgrades seems that it should demonstrate some level of competence, but you seem to think that's not enough because they didn't reinvent everything they touch at every step.

Given the unethical things they do you would expect positive practical results. Otherwise, what is the point? They cause all this suffering and have nothing to show for it. Are they just a group of sadists? When you fail that hard and such failure is the rule, not the exception, how should a rational person perceive you? The incompetence displayed by Cerberus is cartoonish at this point. How can they never learn from their many many mistakes?

People like to bring up the Normandy SR-2 as a Cerberus success. This is incorrect. The Alliance and the Heirarchy developed the Normandy class frigates. Cerberus took that design and modified it.

The only success they have had is Lazarus, but that had to succeed for the plot to continue. And even that could be seen as a failure in terms of Cerberus's long term goals (depending on the player). It's not even a practical technology. I got those ME comics for free so I'll see it reveals exactly where they got the tech from. I assume it's from Dragon's Teeth.

REgentleman wrote...

Are you looking for a specific kind of practical outcome from their research, or what? Because given my sub-adequate knowledge of the workings of the ME universe outside what Shepard does, I might find that rather difficult to respond to.

Yes, very difficult indeed.

1. 1st study into biotic = lots of dead kids. No practical benefit gained.
2. Study rachni = blew up in their faces. Rachni are now out there in the galaxy. No benefit gained.
3. 1st attempt to study huskification process = colony wiped out and turned into husks. No benefit gained.
4. Study Thorian creepers = Science team all dead. No benefit gained.
5. 2nd Study into biotics = lots of folks died. No practical benefit gained.
6. 2nd attempt to study huskification process using tech from Collector bodies = Lots of people died. No benefit gained.
7. Study geth AI = lots of people dead. Would have caused galaxy wide technological apocalypse if not for Shepard. No benefits gained to date.
8. Doing something beyond Omega 4 relay = Alot of people are going to die. Expecting no benefits.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:09 .

[didymos1120]

The Twilight God wrote...

4. Study Thorian creepers = Science team all dead. No benefit gained.

This is a quite persistent myth. That colony was not a Cerberus project.  It was run by ExoGeni, the same people who owned the Feros colony.  Cerberus only bought a handful of creepers.  You see them, safely penned up, in a single base when trying to find Kahoku.  Also, they went nuts because of Shep killing the Thorian, not anything the researchers did.

[Someone With Mass]

It's pretty pointless to try and create and develop this vast universe if it all is going to be about Cerberus.

[The Twilight God]

Sorry, I missed your post earlier.

Arijharn wrote...

But you know, the geth shield technology wasn't actually on Legion when you got him, you had to 'research' it.. which would mean that eventually Cerberus got that info if they didn't already have it.

You pick that up from missions involving geth. One during Tali's mission and the other during legions mission. Likewise you get the krogan vitality on Grunts recruitment and mordin's loyalty mission. The "research" is merely providing the resources to realize it.

Arijharn wrote...

True, and yet no one else has done this 'simple concept' as far as we know (and there is no point arguing otherwise because you just don't know. The Alliance hasn't got it, the Turian's haven't either. It's Shephard, which Cerberus provided (after a 'fee')

Incorrect. ME1's Shield Boost = Redundant Field Generator. The tech has been around for at least 2 years. The only difference is that it's automatic in ME2. Big whoop.

Arijharn wrote...

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but it's an advancement that no one else has, which pretty makes it an improvement by all standard measurement.

Overclocking a CPU and replacing the stock heatsink with an aftermarket is an improvement. That hardly makes me a CPU engineer nor constitutes a technological advancement. And everyone, at least in Council Space, has smart targeting. It's a standard feature on all guns in ME1. To say that no one else has it is disingenous.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cerberus has very advanced tech This is indesputable. Weather many smaller modifications or improvements or large breaktroughs - that is irrelevant.

It is a fact that Cerberus steal and innovates wherever they can and that they are at the forefront of all new tech.

[The Twilight God]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus has very advanced tech

Compared to what? 21st century tech?

If not, what do you define as "very advanced"? Lazarus is very advanced. Is that one technology the basis of your comment?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Twilight God wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus has very advanced tech

Compared to what? 21st century tech?

If not, what do you define as "very advanced"?

Compared to the rest of the factions in the universe.
Top-of-the line weaponry and armor. Normandy Mk2 is top of the line too. The Lazarus project. All the other advanced projects it was working on.
The FTL communicator - the ONLY such device in existance.

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The FTL communicator - the ONLY such device in existance.

Um, no.  In LotSB, one of the assistant drone's lines mentions that multiple QECs are being installed at various locations.  And note the different acronym.  A QEC is not the only means of FTL comms.  The galaxy has had that for ages. How else do you think you had all those chats with the Council in ME1, or got all those calls from Hackett? Also: the Reapers use QECs extensively.  See Retribution.  

In any case, what the QEC provides is largely security: it cannot be tapped as it bypasses standard methods and networks entirely. You basically have to be in the same room as the sender or receiver to eavesdrop.  Secondarily, it's  immune to transmission problems like network outages or whatever. Only problems with the equipment on either end of the channel will affect the transmission.  Of course, that's also the source of its huge drawback: it's as point-to-point as it gets.  You can only contact whoever has the entangled twin to your particle.

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:48 .

[Someone With Mass]

Cerberus blatantly stole the designs for the Normandy, so I wouldn't call that something they came up with.

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cerberus blatantly stole the designs for the Normandy, so I wouldn't call that something they came up with.

But....leather seats!

[The Twilight God]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Compared to the rest of the factions in the universe.

You don't know what the other factions have so that is a baseless assertion. We're told the asari are the most advanced. Other than that we have nothing more to go on.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Top-of-the line weaponry and armor. Normandy Mk2 is top of the line too. The Lazarus project. All the other advanced projects it was working on.

Top-of-the line weaponry and armor compared to what exactly? And let me remind you that Cerberus did not develop the Normandy class frigate. The Alliance and Heirarchy, with Citadel oversight, developed it.

And what "other projects" are you referring to? As far as we know Cerberus has not made any substantial gains. Nearly everything they touch results in alot of dead people and no practical benefit.

Lazarus is the only known Cerberus endevor to succeed, as I mentioned. Sadly, it isn't economically practical.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The FTL communicator - the ONLY such device in existance.

Quantum entanglement devices are not Cerberus technology. It already existed long before ME1. It is simply too expension for mass production.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 17 juillet 2011 - 02:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Twilight God wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Compared to the rest of the factions in the universe.

You don't know what the other factions have so that is a baseless assertion. We're told the asari are the most advanced. Other than that we have nothing more to go on.

Nope. Not baseless. We know Cerberous sport highly advanced tech, as they spy and steal from everyone.
In fact, it's why they urged the Alliance to develop the Normandy - so they could obsereve turian tech.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Top-of-the line weaponry and armor. Normandy Mk2 is top of the line too. The Lazarus project. All the other advanced projects it was working on.

Top-of-the line weaponry and armor compared to what exactly? And let me remind you that Cerberus did not develop the Normandy class frigate. The Alliance and Heirarchy, with Citadel oversight, developed it.

And what "other projects" are you referring to? As far as we know Cerberus has not made any substantial gains. Nearly everything they touch results in alot of dead people and no practical benefit.

Lazarus is the only known Cerberus endevor to succeed, as I mentioned. Sadly, it isn't economically practical.

Improvement of existing designs is advancement. Note that Normandy and Normady 2 are two different beasts. You can't just scale something up 30%. Mk2 is a whole new ship that is based on Mk1, but it's not just a copy.
Cerberus is constantly researching something.
They are anti-repaer, pro-human, so it's not surprising.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cerberus blatantly stole the designs for the Normandy, so I wouldn't call that something they came up with.

But....leather seats!

Shame about the super-AI, though.

[The Twilight God]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. Not baseless. We know Cerberous sport highly advanced tech, as they spy and steal from everyone.
In fact, it's why they urged the Alliance to develop the Normandy - so they could obsereve turian tech.

And yet we had to get guns from the turians, armor from the asari and shields from the quarians. Not to mention aftermarket thrusters and scanners. And that's just for the Normandy. As far as squadmate weapons and armor are concerned, nearly everything is either found or purchased. So Cerberus doesn't seem to be on top of the technological pyramid. They are, however, at the forefront of failure.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Improvement of existing designs is advancement.

Not substantial. As I have frequently said. Overclocking a CPU and installing a better heatksink will provide an advancement in performance.  Replacing CPU components with gold would advance the performance. So what? That is not something to write home about. I can't sell such a design to Intel because there is nothing new. It's just a common sense, albeit economically impractical, improvement. Whoopty-do.

Note that Normandy and Normady 2 are two different beasts. You can't just scale something up 30%. Mk2 is a whole new ship that is based on Mk1, but it's not just a copy.

Yes, actually, you can just scale something up 30%.  That's pretty much what the SR-2 is compared to the SR-1.

Here's a .44 Special. Here's is a .44 magnum. I can assure you that no one had to reinvent the wheel to produce the .44 magnum. Same goes for the SR-2.

Cerberus is constantly researching something.

And constantly failing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Twilight God wrote...

And yet we had to get guns from the turians, armor from the asari and shields from the quarians. Not to mention aftermarket thrusters and scanners. And that's just for the Normandy. As far as squadmate weapons and armor are concerned, nearly everything is either found or purchased. So Cerberus doesn't seem to be on top of the technological pyramid. They are, however, at the forefront of failure.

If you recall ME1, you could find armors and weapons from other races.
And they were pretty comparable to human ones.
Not to mention al lthe alines you fight don't seem to be any morte advanced  than you.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Improvement of existing designs is advancement.

Not substantial. As I have frequently said. Overclocking a CPU and installing a better heatksink will provide an advancement in performance.  Replacing CPU components with gold would advance the performance. So what? That is not something to write home about. I can't sell such a design to Intel because there is nothing new. It's just a common sense, albeit economically impractical, improvement. Whoopty-do.

It doesn't have to be substantial. One can move forward in giant leaps or small steps..or both.
Even such small steps can prove to be cruical to survival.

You have failed to impress me. Whoopty-do.

Note that Normandy and Normady 2 are two different beasts. You can't just scale something up 30%. Mk2 is a whole new ship that is based on Mk1, but it's not just a copy.

Yes, actually, you can just scale something up 30%.  That's pretty much what the SR-2 is compared to the SR-1.

Here's a .44 Special. Here's is a .44 magnum. I can assure you that no one had to reinvent the wheel to produce the .44 magnum. Same goes for the SR-2.

Engineers all over the world are just having a facepalm moment. Seriously. Dont' ever say something liek that in public, lest you embarras yourself.
You really think you can easily just take a starship and enlarge it, just like that? It requires many, many structural changes and a complete re-design. It's not re-inventing the wheel, but it's FAR more involved than just copy-paste.
Not to mention that SR-2 is technologicly superior to SR-1, in terms of performance and installed equipment.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Engineers all over the world are just having a facepalm moment. Seriously. Dont' ever say something liek that in public, lest you embarras yourself.
You really think you can easily just take a starship and enlarge it, just like that? It requires many, many structural changes and a complete re-design. It's not re-inventing the wheel, but it's FAR more involved than just copy-paste.
Not to mention that SR-2 is technologicly superior to SR-1, in terms of performance and installed equipment.

So? It's still not something Cerberus invented. And so much for technological superiority when I can find better parts on Omega.

[Lotion Soronarr]

gameplay and story segragation.

SR-2 is pretty much one of the most advanced ship in the universe.

again, you don't even have to invent everything yourself. You have to have the tech. How you get to it is pretty much irrelevant. It's a good bet Cerberus stole a lot of stuff.

[The Twilight God]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you recall ME1, you could find armors and weapons from other races.
And they were pretty comparable to human ones.
Not to mention al lthe alines you fight don't seem to be any morte advanced  than you.

Why would run-of-the-mill grunts have access to state-of-the-art equipment? For instance, the U.S. army has developed mechanized armor conveying the wearer superior strength, near invulnerability to conventional weaponry, target assitance and the ability to see through walls. They even have weapons that can fire around corners. 

Any force fighting the army infantry wouldn't know this. It's not economical to outfit every soldier in such gear (It's not economical to outfit one). To expect a bunch of mercs to be outfitted with the absolute best there is is unrealistic. Furthermore, to judge technological level solely on personal armor and weapons is foolish. Especially considering everyone can buy everyone's armor. 

Bioware writters say the asari are the most advanced. We have nothing more to go on. If you don't like it, take it up with them.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It doesn't have to be substantial. One can move forward in giant leaps or small steps..or both.
Even such small steps can prove to be cruical to survival.

Everybody is making small steps... and without the massive loss of human life. If you want to take the small steps route then Cerberus is actually below everyone else in that they have nothing to show over any other organization and their tiny gains don't come close to making up for their massive losses.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Engineers all over the world are just having a facepalm moment. Seriously. Dont' ever say something liek that in public, lest you embarras yourself.

Engineers all over the world are in agreement with me. You CAN simply make something bigger. Of course that is not always the case, depends on what it is. Are you saying it is physically impossible to take the Normandy and increase the size? Why not exactly? The very description in the game says they did.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You really think you can easily just take a starship and enlarge it, just like that?

Yes. Why not?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It requires many, many structural changes and a complete re-design.

No, it does not require a complete re-design. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's not re-inventing the wheel, but it's FAR more involved than just copy-paste.
Not to mention that SR-2 is technologicly superior to SR-1, in terms of performance and installed equipment.

Yes, it is not an identical clone. Nobody is saying that it is. In Star Trek, one starship is not indentical to another. But to say that each one is seperately designed from the ground up is ludicrous.

Question: Are you saying Cerberus did not recreate the Normandy by using the Normandy SR-1 design schematics? That Cerberus made their own stealth system and their own tantalus drive core from stratch? In essence saying that they went through the entire development and manufacturing process from concept to reality in a 2 year timeframe?

[Kekkis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Engineers all over the world are just having a facepalm moment. Seriously. Dont' ever say something liek that in public, lest you embarras yourself.
You really think you can easily just take a starship and enlarge it, just like that? It requires many, many structural changes and a complete re-design. It's not re-inventing the wheel, but it's FAR more involved than just copy-paste.
Not to mention that SR-2 is technologicly superior to SR-1, in terms of performance and installed equipment.

SR-2 is obsolete when you get it. Even random aliens can give you blueprints for upgrades. Good job again, Cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

gameplay and story segragation.

SR-2 is pretty much one of the most advanced ship in the universe.

again, you don't even have to invent everything yourself. You have to have the tech. How you get to it is pretty much irrelevant. It's a good bet Cerberus stole a lot of stuff.

Then they don't deserve the credit. It's like giving them a pat on the shoulder because Garrus installed the Thanix cannon, or when Jacob made sure we had better armor plating, or when Tali upgraded the shields, when in reality, Cerberus didn't do diddily dick to help on that front.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 17 juillet 2011 - 07:52 .

[GodWood]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Cerberus blatantly stole the designs for the Normandy, so I wouldn't call that something they came up with

The original Normandy that was built because of Cerberus.

EDIT: And the designs were not stolen.

Modifié par GodWood, 17 juillet 2011 - 08:04 .

[Someone With Mass]

GodWood wrote...
The original Normandy that was built because of Cerberus.

Did they design it? Did they build it?

Oh, I see. They just gave the right guy(s) a nudge. Big whoop.

[didymos1120]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You did not use a QEC device in ME1.

Who said you did?  Not me. Not anyone else either, that I can see.  I simply said other forms of FTL comms already existed in the ME-verse. Hence the "How do you think you spoke to the Council in ME1?" question.

[didymos1120]

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
The original Normandy that was built because of Cerberus.

Did they design it? Did they build it?

Oh, I see. They just gave the right guy(s) a nudge. Big whoop.

Also, a primary motive for doing so was so they could snag turian tech for their own uses.