887 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

I apologize for my formatting, I'm still trying to get used to BSN.

Chun Hei wrote...

You are free to ask Bioware to give you all the options you want. I am a bit pagan myself but I would love for more games to make religious backgrounds important in role playing as the spacer, survivor or ruthless Shepard. Gays are unhappy because there has always been s/s in ME but it has been lesbian. Few believe that the HAWT lesbian options were pandering to gays as much to the stereotypical male gamer.

Mass Effect wasn't marketed with hawt lesbos. The only reason it was a big deal is because Fox News and others threw a riot, which then went on to prove There Is No Such Thing As Bad Publicity.

Bioware has done something that all entertainment companies say they want to do. They have a lot of women fans. They have a loyal gay following. Most women I know do not mind gay or bi options in RPGs and we are more than 50 percent of the population in the USA. Gays are not numerous but gay men especially have comparitively a lot of spending money the could put into the VG industry. Bioware is catering to their market. God forbid they make games people actually want.

I don't know what your trying to say here. Bioware has women and gay fans. You don't know many homophobic women. There are more women than men in the USA. There are not many gays. Gay men have lots of money (is that even confirmed?). Bioware markets to gays by having a few flirty conversations and a blacked-out love scene. A jab at somebody.

Is that about right?

There is a lot of yelling on this forum about it and I do hear many people in game stores who are not happy about s/s romance but they do not care enough to let that ruin a game for them. They do not whine for hours about their immersion being ruined. If Bioware makes a good story for their shooter they are happy.

Of course. Nobody who opposes S/S romances is threatening to not buy it come release. We just have gripes about it, some more logical than others.

Marketing games to conservative religious people would be problematic. Almost ALL renegade options would have to be removed. Jack gone. Miranda should not be looking for ways to get pregnant if she is not married. No premarital sex. No sex outside your species. Mass Effect and Dragon Age could not exist at even a basic level.

I don't get this. How is removing choices and options going to make somebody want to buy it? That's like saying Bioware is marketing ME to gays by removing all straight romances. My point was never "Put more Christian and Republican stuff in", but rather "Calm down, Bioware owes you nothing, gays don't deserve more content than any other group,"

This is a role playing game. There is NOTHING that the s/s fans want that will keep you from playing as a "straight" Shepard. Nothing that keeps him from being a racist or a murderer. There would be no real religious option introduced even if there were no gay male option so do not pretend that conservative Christians, Jews or Republicans cannot fully develop their Shepards because he can now be a gay male.

I quite agree. My only concern is to the story of this game, such as retconning characters into bisexuals just to appease the homosexuals. Hence the topic of this de-railed thread.

[Palidane]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I don’t want to be an ass or anything,  but,  I’m not seeing the similarity.  Perhaps,  if BioWare had decided to emphasize a choice in religious backgrounds as they have emphasized sexuality in Mass Effect it may be apt.  As is,  outside of one conversation with Ashley it isn’t brought up… and point in fact if they decided to throw in texts for every religious sect in existence the game would be huge and they’d probably go bankrupt thanks to the cost of voice actors.

This isn’t so with bisexual romance options.  The number of lines doesn’t jump dramatically,  point in fact,  the differences are fairly small.  See Leliana and Zevran’s romances for each sex,  sure,  there are differences but not enough where it becomes financially damning. 

I'm certainly not asking for every religion to be included in some meaningful way. Like I said, I'm fine with S/S romances, it's the entitlement complex that some supporters have that bugs me.

As I have said though, religion isn’t important in the mass effect universe.  Your character can of course still act like a good religious individual thanks to the choices you make.  Of course,  you can’t proselytize but,  is spreading the word as important as making the choices?  Besides,  when are you going to have time to convert random strangers when you’re attempting to save the galaxy.

There is much more to religion than spreading the word and witnessing. Why is religion unimportant in Mass Effect, though? The whole game is about making moral choices and dealing with the consequences. What fits in more wih that theme, wondering if there is a god, why he lets this bad stuff happen etc etc, or having sex with more/varied people?

As for republicans and democrats they probably don’t exist anymore what with the drastic change in the political landscapes of earth.  If you bring up race,  I counter with the fact that Shepard herself can be a representative of any race…  while homosexuals were for the most part simply swept under the rug.  An asexual can simply choose not to indulge in the romance options,  homosexual again do not have that choice.

The terms "Republican" and "Democrat" are surely long gone, but what the meaning behind them is certainly still relevant. The main plot of ME3 is going around and seuring the aid of various nations and species. Translation: Politics. Why are these different views forsaken?

Race could have had a lot of interesting results. It could illustrates how hypocrytical, and how very human the galaxy is. Looking down on a black person is considered crazy, but disliking turians is the norm? Why is this aspect less important than S/S romance?

Heck, you could even have a deeper storyline with asexual Shepard, who must refuse the advances of various people. But no, S/S romances get all the attention.

As is though,  Relationships have been a selling point for Bioware Games.  They deepen character interaction and it enhances the character of Shepard.   It provides another reason to fight,  it causes dramatic tension,  and it opens up further dialogue (The most important part of a romance if you don’t mind me saying.)  Unfortunatly homosexual males haven’t had an opportunity to indulge in one of the touted features of the game,  an “Important” feature of the game in the eyes of many of the players.  While lesbians were told that there “S/S” relationship didn’t count.

I think your overestimating how much ME romances are marketed. I agree with their storyline importance, but Mass Effect is about shooting bad guys, flying cool ships, and saving the world. It seems a lot of people want a dating sim. Many people have unreasonable expectations, and they will be let down hard for ME3, guaranteed.

I don’t think we’re owed anything,  but,  I do want to see homosexual content in the game.  Sure the group is vocal,  but,  if you don’t make yourself heard we’ll never be paid attention to.  Just because we aren’t in the majority doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be heard.  Sometimes when your not in the majority you have to raise your voice to be recognized. 

I agree completely. But just because your a minority does not make you more important than the majority. A considerably larger majority, if I may. Bioware won't bend over backwards so you can have your S/S romances, and it won't be a crucial part of the game, and nobody will buy ME3 for one blacked out love scene and some flirty diolog.

[Telemachus78]

Holy bridge device Batman!! I must have gone back in time.

[Abispa]

Palidane wrote...

I don't get this. How is removing choices and options going to make somebody want to buy it? That's like saying Bioware is marketing ME to gays by removing all straight romances. My point was never "Put more Christian and Republican stuff in", but rather "Calm down, Bioware owes you nothing, gays don't deserve more content than any other group,"

No, you don't.

Gays cannot FORCE Bioware to do anything. You yourself like to point out how small their percentage of the population is. Bioware asked for player feedback. The gay players and those of we "straight" players who don't mind more options in a game gave our feedback, just as the Garrus and Tali fans gave theirs after ME1. I'm sure the "recon" fans have given theirs. I'm betting MOST players don't even give a damn either way so long as they can blow things up. Taking all things into consideration, Bioware decided that they can still make a game they're happy with AND include more s/s options.

Gay fans are already fans of the series. They have purchased both games already. It's not YOU and YOU ALONE have given your money and attention to this series. It is YOU who have demand restrictions be placed on a game NOT because of time or money constraints, but because YOU don't like it. Personally, I found the relationship with Tali disturbing on a maturity level and I wanted to put Miranda out the airlock, but I fully support Talimancers and Miranda fans to play the game in a way that makes them happy.

I'm not sure exactly what Chun was getting at about gays with money, unless it was gay males on average earn as much money as straight males and males earn more money than females. Thus I guess it could be argued that gay males have more disposable income than straight couples and especially lesbian couples.

[Abispa]

Telemachus78 wrote...

Holy bridge device Batman!! I must have gone back in time.

It's all YOUR fault for going into warp while orbiting the sun!

Actually, I still have no idea how that worked in Star Trek.

[AngelicMachinery]

Palidane wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I don’t want to be an ass or anything,  but,  I’m not seeing the similarity.  Perhaps,  if BioWare had decided to emphasize a choice in religious backgrounds as they have emphasized sexuality in Mass Effect it may be apt.  As is,  outside of one conversation with Ashley it isn’t brought up… and point in fact if they decided to throw in texts for every religious sect in existence the game would be huge and they’d probably go bankrupt thanks to the cost of voice actors.

This isn’t so with bisexual romance options.  The number of lines doesn’t jump dramatically,  point in fact,  the differences are fairly small.  See Leliana and Zevran’s romances for each sex,  sure,  there are differences but not enough where it becomes financially damning. 

I'm certainly not asking for every religion to be included in some meaningful way. Like I said, I'm fine with S/S romances, it's the entitlement complex that some supporters have that bugs me.

As I have said though, religion isn’t important in the mass effect universe.  Your character can of course still act like a good religious individual thanks to the choices you make.  Of course,  you can’t proselytize but,  is spreading the word as important as making the choices?  Besides,  when are you going to have time to convert random strangers when you’re attempting to save the galaxy.

There is much more to religion than spreading the word and witnessing. Why is religion unimportant in Mass Effect, though? The whole game is about making moral choices and dealing with the consequences. What fits in more wih that theme, wondering if there is a god, why he lets this bad stuff happen etc etc, or having sex with more/varied people?

As for republicans and democrats they probably don’t exist anymore what with the drastic change in the political landscapes of earth.  If you bring up race,  I counter with the fact that Shepard herself can be a representative of any race…  while homosexuals were for the most part simply swept under the rug.  An asexual can simply choose not to indulge in the romance options,  homosexual again do not have that choice.

The terms "Republican" and "Democrat" are surely long gone, but what the meaning behind them is certainly still relevant. The main plot of ME3 is going around and seuring the aid of various nations and species. Translation: Politics. Why are these different views forsaken?

Race could have had a lot of interesting results. It could illustrates how hypocrytical, and how very human the galaxy is. Looking down on a black person is considered crazy, but disliking turians is the norm? Why is this aspect less important than S/S romance?

Heck, you could even have a deeper storyline with asexual Shepard, who must refuse the advances of various people. But no, S/S romances get all the attention.

As is though,  Relationships have been a selling point for Bioware Games.  They deepen character interaction and it enhances the character of Shepard.   It provides another reason to fight,  it causes dramatic tension,  and it opens up further dialogue (The most important part of a romance if you don’t mind me saying.)  Unfortunatly homosexual males haven’t had an opportunity to indulge in one of the touted features of the game,  an “Important” feature of the game in the eyes of many of the players.  While lesbians were told that there “S/S” relationship didn’t count.

I think your overestimating how much ME romances are marketed. I agree with their storyline importance, but Mass Effect is about shooting bad guys, flying cool ships, and saving the world. It seems a lot of people want a dating sim. Many people have unreasonable expectations, and they will be let down hard for ME3, guaranteed.

I don’t think we’re owed anything,  but,  I do want to see homosexual content in the game.  Sure the group is vocal,  but,  if you don’t make yourself heard we’ll never be paid attention to.  Just because we aren’t in the majority doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be heard.  Sometimes when your not in the majority you have to raise your voice to be recognized. 

I agree completely. But just because your a minority does not make you more important than the majority. A considerably larger majority, if I may. Bioware won't bend over backwards so you can have your S/S romances, and it won't be a crucial part of the game, and nobody will buy ME3 for one blacked out love scene and some flirty diolog.

Morality and religion go hand in hand,  but,  religion isn’t necessary for morality.  Simply because a game includes choices that one can view as either ethical or despicable doesn’t mean spirituality has to be involved in the game.  I get the desire to have it,  but,  clearly defining Shepard’s theological ideals outside of believer/atheist would only end up neglecting gamers because their particularly faith isn’t represented in the game.  As is,  the vague conversation with Ashley in my opinion is more than enough to establish Shepard as either faithless or faithful.   From a marketing stand point it’s good one,  but,  if Bioware decided to create a game that was based heavily on choice and forced a character into an existing religion I’m not sure I’d particularly care.  I’d play,  but,  it could be considered alienating a portion of their fan base.

The romances aren’t the key selling point to mass effect,  I’ve never made that claim.  Yet,  if you look around these forums you’ll see just how VERY large the fan base for them is.  I see no reason why one small group should simply be excluded,  it’s not pandering,  it’s finally throwing gay males a bone(Shut Up Beavis).  You might not like it,  and you might call it whining but you know what?  Both sides of the argument seem to be quite prone of throwing around caustic words and the like,  what makes the heterosexuals anymore in the right than the homosexuals? 

Also,  I’ve never made claims that Homosexuals are more important than heterosexuals.  I am of the oppinion that they are equal, despite the differences in numbers.  The inclusion of homosexual content doesn’t remove anything from heterosexual game.  I must admit I don’t see what the big deal is,  it’s not like Tali is going to start shacking up with Jack behind your back or anything.  They Squaddies will continue to be influenced by Shepard’s actions. 

As is,  having homosexual content in the game doesn’t take anything away from anything else.

So,  unless everyone’s problem is simple potential of being flirted with by a male.  There shouldn’t be an issue, and if that is  of course the issue your having all I can say is relax.  Though,  we’ve been told by Casey Hudson that  romances will require the player to innitate them… as such,  homosexual content will remain relatively hidden to the straight audience except one tiny little line.

I also would enjoy the inclusion of more options for Shepard,  as is,  I argue for homosexuality because it is currently both a hot button issue and it affects people that I know as well as myself.  If other people want to raise their voices for what they desire I say go ahead.  If I agree I might argue for it,  if not I’ll argue against it.  If BioWare decides to include it I’ll accept it.

[naledgeborn]

In response to the thread title; how about "No, thank you."?

[Eromenos]

Celtic Latino wrote...

I'd rather they didn't, not because I'm against s/s romances (because I do play them), but because I don't like retconning of characters unless it's absolutely necessary. The only 'bisexual' for old characters outside of Liara (who already is a bi option) would probably be Jack (since she was already with both genders) and possibly Thane (he struck me as a possibility).

Ashley I just see as a heterosexual character as I do Kaidan. Even if they were 'bi' options I just wouldn't play them that way. Same with Jacob and Miranda. If a male Shep tried to get to know him in ME2 he became uncomfortable (implying he is definitely straight) and Miranda really doesn't seem all that interested in women.

I could care less for the 'local minority' that insists every romanceable should be bisexual. I'm all for new bisexual characters, but I wouldn't even mind exclusively homosexual or lesbian characters either.

What is this "retconning" of which you speak? Try as we might, I'm sure we cannot find any instances of Kaidan or Ashley put a foot down against possibility of S/S in his life or her life. It's just a bunch of biphobic people projecting their own fantasies into their vision of an ideal pixellated bf and gf.

I have no comments to offer about Miranda and Jacob...aside for the fact all ME2 "romance" NPCs were crap jobs to begin with, and in the case of the two males they were crappy even outside of romantic interactions.

Hehe, 'local minority.' This 'local minority' affected the development of an entire DA game. I have doubts about the ME devs having what it takes to match the DA2 team's success, but at the least it's good to see even the "threat" of an all-bisexual Normandy is just so galling.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 juillet 2011 - 09:52 .

[Geirahod]

I say: hey...why the hell not?, If you're playing as male or female, what the **** do you care if the other character is BI?, As far as I remember, the romance options are pickable....so, if you're a male...you can pick the option of no romance if you're talking with the other character and easy cake!.


I'm ok with Bi characters, everyone is happy, just like in DA2...if you don't like gay stuff, just romance the female characters or the male ones, after all...your character will not know that they are gay.

Modifié par Geirahod, 17 juillet 2011 - 10:36 .

[FoxShadowblade]

naledgeborn wrote...

In response to the thread title; how about "No, thank you."?

I'm going to go with "I should have left you on Virmire, too."

[AngelicMachinery]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

In response to the thread title; how about "No, thank you."?

I'm going to go with "I should have left you on Virmire, too."

Blowing up a man to prevent him from hitting on you,  I do declare... lulz.

[Eromenos]

Palidane wrote...

 I'm fine with S/S romances. I'm neutral on gays. But what I disapprove of is that some people, like Eromenos, think that they are "owed" something by Bioware. I think thats both dumb and whiny. The fact is, Bioware is a company, and companies make money by selling products people like. And since people like things they can relate to, companies make products that will appeal to the highest amount of people.

I'm not like you. I couldn't care less whether BioWare lives or dies. I have no reason to clutch my pearls over their welfare. We don't owe them; they owe us since we're customers/clients.

It should feel old everytime I read someone arguing that companies' sole responsibility is just their own bottom-line. But reading said argument somehow always energizes me. It's because you'd wish it were that simple. Claiming it makes it so, eh? A way to reinforce your sense that business is good while it continues to manufacture only that which is in-keeping with your deathgrip on comformity within majority-rule. But as I said before, I couldn't care less about the majority's stubbed-toe when their homophobia no longer works as well for them as it used to. Their princess desires are oppressively overvalued.

So I have to ask, if gays get to demand that the sexuality of various characters should be decided on their whim, why can't Christians like me decide everyone's religion? Why can't Bioware write up two complete sets of diolog for every character, one Atheist, one Christian? So far, gays have only gotten Liara, who wasn't a real homosexual. Well, all we have is Ashley, and she is not a proper Christian character, just "spiritual". Christians are equally underrepresented in this game as gays, but we don't demand Bioware caters the whole universe to our need or else their Athiest bigots. 

Ironically, this has a lot to do with the "majority" concept you were getting at. The tech/science-oriented ME universe was understandably unfriendly to preachings of Earth-based organized religions. At the same time I am unqualified to imagine an alternative workable story structure that would overlay ME1 or ME2 with a (fumdamentalist?)Christian-perspective. Well, I mean I kind of could...but such would be very campy and backhanded about the religions, if it were coming from me.

You may wanna consider that sexuality of any kind is much more of a biological drive throughout human gamers as opposed to religious convictions that are abstract and frankly unreliable finds, whereas "carnal sin" is always relatable. Sexuality is a mandatory aspect of being human. Religion is not mandatory.

The simplest answer to your question is, of course, that the wind is blowing against overt religious dogma. Even gay-hating people around here usually don't resort to religion to have their say; all the other reasons I've listed fall into place behind this one.

So when it comes to BioWare choosing whether to display religions that tend to openly hate queer people...or to choose non-religious tokenized "fake lezzie" cop-outs that appeal to a heteropatriarchal market, then of course BioWare would go for the stealth-homophobic/sexist option. I assure you there's no middle-ground to be had. Queer-accepting religious NPCs would be decried for not being "[insert religion] enough" by said religion's most visible and conservative elements. Queer-hating religious NPCs would be contemptible even to more people. What are we left with? Religions being sidelined, which is honestly a good thing in ME.

I'm not saying all supporters of S/S romances are like this, I only wished to draw a comparison. I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but there are alot more Christians than gays. It would make much more sense for Bioware to "pander" to us, but they don't. And we don't complain. Neither do Muslims, Hindu's, Asexuals, Republicans, or Democrats, all of which are equally underrepresented, and all of which except maybe the Hindu's are discriminated against to varying levels in America.

So all I want to know is why gays get to moan and take some great stand against homophobia in games, while most everyone else just accepts they can't cater to everyone and moves on? Because what's important to you is unimportant to others, and vice versa. Why are you more special than us? How are you not a vocal minority?

I don't intend to offend anyone, these are honest questions.

I hope to gods both Dems and Repubs will be extinct in the future. As for the religions, I mostly covered this above. Consider this though; maybe there isn't any large presence here calling for more of it because most of the religious people here don't consider it necessary to have Shepard or NPCs reflecting any gamer's personal religious conviction(s). Remember that this is a RPG; any Bible-based perspective is frankly out-of-touch(even for its time) along with being an ever-limiting view of the universe.

I suggest you refrain from equating sexuality with religion. The former is more important than the latter. And I'm not even saying that as a vague business objective, I mean sexuality is something we all have regardless of what we may claim.

You ever watch the newer Battlestar Galactica? For the most part...it succesfully melded faith and space opera together. I felt Caprica did an even better job. Of course I say this as a non-religious person who likes the Greek Pantheon. Regardless, those two were good at it. The overall structure and focus of ME just isn't.

Understand that I don't instantly say, "religion itself has no place in scifi." It can. I may have no vested interest in it, but I do recognize it can be done well. But whenever it's used to attack queerness and/or to claim victimhood over some lack of religious exposure, then I simply say it's better to expunge all faith from the text.

Modifié par Eromenos, 17 juillet 2011 - 11:20 .

[Russalka]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

I'm going to go with "I should have left you on Virmire, too."

Blowing up a man to prevent him from hitting on you,  I do declare... lulz.

I do not tire mentioning how some people slaughter Zevran not because he intended to assassinate the Warden, but because he starts flirting with him.

Modifié par Russalka, 17 juillet 2011 - 11:15 .

[Vertigo_1]

Eromenos wrote...
We don't owe them; they owe us since we're customers/clients.

They don't owe us anything, actually.

[K_Tabris]

Wonder if they will pull a DA2 and make all the love interests bi? If anything, Ashley/Kaidan would be the 'safe' option to do this with.

[naledgeborn]

Russalka wrote...

I do not tire mentioning how some people slaughter Zevran not because he intended to assassinate the Warden, but because he starts flirting with him.

Now that indeed is homophobia. I've only killed him once and it was with a Dwarf Noble. I don't get it though. Killing him off because he's bisexual is stupid. He was already written that way. Don't want him hitting on you; turn him down. Simple.

Now bringing Ashley and Kaidan ect back as bisexuals is also stupid. I won't call it "the overused" pandering but these are established characters. If they want to make Shepard bisexual in ME3 cool (only because s/he is the PC) but not with people who haven't shown interest in the same gender.

Jack being bisexual sure. Maybe Tali because she's infatuated regardless of gender. I don't know how they'll handle Garrus but I hope s/s supporters enjoy it and that it doesn't seem tacked on. IMO that's worse that not gettting s/s at all.

[shepskisaac]

naledgeborn wrote...
Now bringing Ashley and Kaidan ect back as bisexuals is also stupid. I won't call it "the overused" pandering but these are established characters.

Established to be into opposite gender. It ain't established if they do or do not like the same gender. If 'not showing interest' means they were heterosexual in ME1, than Tali and Garrus were asexual in ME1. Also, Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back is a retcon because he never hinted at Luke being his son in A New Hope.

[Eromenos]

Abispa wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Obviously your memory is very poor. Replay Samara's loyalty mission again.

Hm. So is mine apparently. Clarification?  I don't remember anyone being homophobic. 

Listen to Nef's log entries. "Am I a FREAK? Morinth is a WOMAN like ME..."

Exactly. Not to mention that skeevy Basic Instinct-esque cop-out of the Morinth character. The institutional-level of pureblood-phobia was equally unworthy of shoving in people's faces, with or without "sympathetic" portrayals. We're not looking for sad 20/20 perserverance. We're looking for queers who don't have to answer to homophobia.

To BatmanPWNS: Wanting queer visibility isn't about "realism." Obviously it is insutlingly unrealistic to limit queer-depictions to only hourglasses enjoyable for dudebros, but gunning for realism itself is an insufficient counter to that because it continues to limit queers inside a perspective tailored for homophobic people, not queer people.

Queer characters need to be 3-dimensional. More than victims. More than villains. More than exotic "others" for mainstream straights to gawk at. The queer characters need to be affirming to actual queer people and the straights who can "get it." Queer characters need to become normalized and found in all facets of life in the ME universe.

Insisting on homophobic viewpoints for "balance" is a misnomer. Such a way of framing things persistently casts unnecessary burden on queers to "prove something." By that logic, straights need to "prove something" as well.

Unappetizing thought, isn't it? Queer people feel the same way.

[Sepewrath]

Geirahod wrote...

I say: hey...why the hell not?, If you're playing as male or female, what the **** do you care if the other character is BI?, As far as I remember, the romance options are pickable....so, if you're a male...you can pick the option of no romance if you're talking with the other character and easy cake!.

Well personally I don't care about characters being bisexual, homosexual or anything else you might be able to come up with. However, I would prefer them to maintain character intergrity and unless the romance system undergoes a complete overhaul, it'll be hard to do that with you just being nice to Ashley suddenly has her coming on to a female Shepard. Its not like DA2, where the only person you could call on it, was Anders, everyone knew Isabela was bisexual and the rest were undefined, either by being new or making no case in an earlier appearance. When they start to make the characters simple sponges for what the players want, the characters start to lose strength.

[K_Tabris]

"Established to be into the opposite gender" I know of RL situations where it is 'established' that people are attracted to the opposite gender for the first, say, 50 years of their lives before realizing they have an attraction to the same gender.

This is an invalid point. Kaidan and Ashley do have the potential to be attracted to the same sex Shepard.

[shepskisaac]

Calob wrote...
well maybe lesbiands, but no guy on guy action.

Could it be possible, no, it can't be, but maybe, are you happen perhaps to be a... straight guy?

[Eromenos]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Eromenos wrote...
We don't owe them; they owe us since we're customers/clients.

They don't owe us anything, actually.

Your view of economics is very stunted. I do wonder where any business would end up without any good will or inflow. I wonder. As I said, in other institutions the wind is blowing in favor of queer visibility. BioWare was too craven to bat for us before it became safe to do so, but now that DADT is being taken down the ME devs know they have to get in before Shepard's story is wrapped up.

Also, I was responding to another person who was countering my claim. I said that BioWare owes us because ME devs arrogantly "play" with portrayals of queer women in tokenizing exploitative fashion. Yes, they owe us because they collectively abused queer visibility.

Last I checked queer males exist, yet BioWare operates on the exclusive concept that its only debt is to "owe straight people" a M/F coupling with every last romance-able NPC that gets cranked out. Zero for the males, tsk. So before we pretend that BioWare is some sovereign entity above the little folk, right there are two things that they do owe, regardless of their homophobic selectiveness.

ME devs would like to continually reserve "str8s-only" NPCs to placate the homophobic segment of straight people who guard their monopoly. But...playing safe that way is "less" of an option now than it was before. Supposedly the tokenized bisexual NPCs alongside the str8s-only were meant to keep us placated. Since BioWare has failed us, they owe us. Particularly the ME devs.

Modifié par Eromenos, 18 juillet 2011 - 12:20 .

[naledgeborn]

George Lucas pulled out from his ass "I am your father!" 10 minutes before it went on film. True story.
Garrus and Tali being love interests in Mass Effect 2 after showing absolutely no interest what so ever in a xenophillic relationship is bad writing and fan service in general. True story.
Mac Walters and co turning characters bisexual when these interests from said characters wasn't even hinted at previously is an ass pull. They are doing it because a portion of the fan base is demanding it. True story.

Now we can get all scientific and philosophical about nature vs nurture and morality and all this good nonsense and sidetracking that makes no difference to me. Or we can accept the fact that everything I said above is logical and makes sense. I won't be taking part in the former.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 18 juillet 2011 - 12:14 .