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[mya11]

If Kaidan/Ash is bi, I would know how the devs write the new dialogues and it's realistic ?

For the femshep, if you romance Kaidan, is he hetero or BI ?

Modifié par mya11, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:27 .

[shepskisaac]

hhh89 wrote...

Sorry, I was referring at the last part, when you said that it was obvious what are Kaidan's feeling in Horizon.

Kaidan tells to male & (unromanced) female Shepard that losing him/her was like losing a limb to him. Then he screams at him/her "Why didn't you call me?!?! Why didn't you let me know you were alive?!?!" and he's much louder than Ashley, totally not like he usually acts. It ties back to what was said in ME1, she snaps/loses control when he's into someone. He lost control and hit at Vyrnnus so hard (that it actually killed the turian) because he was in love with Rahna and Vyrnnus hurt her.

mya11 wrote...
For the femshep, if you romance Kaidan, is he hetero or gay ?

He's bisexual. Bisexual men like BOTH women and men. But if Kaidan's into FemShep, then he's into FemShep and not anyone else at the moment. When straight people are into someone, it's not like they lose their attraction to other members of the opposite gender. But they're first and fortemost interested in pursuing that one person they're in love currently.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:29 .

[KyreneZA]

IsaacShep wrote...

I said gay romance because the romance that was cut was between two males. Didn't say he's gay (and not bisexual).

Yes, you said. I just fixed it for you, since he would have had to have been bisexual from ME1 to be bisexual in ME3.

No, I don't pretend my Shep already had a romance with him. But I am going to include this knowledge, just like people include meta-gaming knowledge in their playthroughs even though it ain't actual part of their gaming experience.

Go right ahead. I personally leave stuff on the cutting room floor, well on the cutting room floor.

You can say that again, and it will still be the same thing as Kaidan's cut romance with male Shepard. If you think cutting that cut Kaidan's attraction to males, then cutting Tali's romance did the same thing, leaving her with no attraction = asexual. Sorry, same logic. You can't use it only when it suits you.

That makes no sense. Because they cut Kaidan content he must be bisexual, but because they cut content for Tali she must be asexual?

See, I don't consider unromanced FemShep to be just 'friend' to him. Especially considering ME1 establishes he snaps and loses control only when he's romantically involved with someone.

No. He snaps and loses control when an **** of a turian goes too far. Romance has nothing to do with it. He even admits that there never was anything serious between him and Rana. You have as selective a memory as you have a grasp of the obvious.

Is it why companies all the different companies in the world target gay consumers? Why could it be, perhaps because it's a statistically wealthy community? Sounds like good economics to me. Not to mention you forgot about straight women interested in role-playing gay males, and even some straight guys who just like to role-play scenarios completly unrealted to their real life preferences (like Yahtzee from Zero Punctuation did in DA2 going for gay romance with Anders even though he's a straight guy). Numbers can be decieving and BW has already said they've got enough data to know it's worth to create this kind of content.

Oh, and I explicitly stated that vocal minority = gays? You're closer to the truth that vocal minority = all those that want to play any form of s/s romance. I'm all for that, when it makes logical (and not meta-gaming from cut content) sense. Just because I oppose changing established (in game, not in cut content) character's sexuality I'm homophobic, right? I wonder who is the bigot here?

[kumquats]

Malsumis wrote...

This.

Have respect for your work Bio, either write them straight/gay/bi to start of with or leave them how they were made originally. Retcon for fans have and always will be bad.

It's not always a good Idea, to give the fans everything they want.
But BW will listen to the fans and include everything in ME3, they think will be good for the game and will give the gamers overall the best ME3 expirience.

I don't believe they will add Mordin as a LI for me, just because I demand it.

[The Elder King]

IsaacShep wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Sorry, I was referring at the last part, when you said that it was obvious what are Kaidan's feeling in Horizon.

Kaidan tells to male & (unromanced) female Shepard that losing him/her was like losing a limb to him. Then he screams at him/her "Why didn't you call me?!?! Why didn't you let me know you were alive?!?!" and he's much louder than Ashley, totally not like he usually acts. It ties back to what was said in ME1, she snaps/loses control when he's into someone. He lost control and hit at Vyrnnus so hard (that it actually killed the turian) because he was in love with Rahna and Vyrnnus hurt her.

I always thought that this scene proves that he cares deeply about Shepard, but not necessary that he has feelings about him/her. The things he said to Shepard, I'd say to my brother or my sister, or to a friend with I have a sibling relationship. Though this scene could be interpreted as he has feelings about him/her, too, like you said.

[FoxShadowblade]

Malsumis wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Abispa wrote...
My role playing shouldn't be crippled by your lack of imagination.

Characters shouldn't be made cardboard cutouts designed to please the whims of some fanboys.

This.

Have respect for your work Bio, either write them straight/gay/bi to start of with or leave them how they were made originally. Retcon for fans have and always will be bad.

They aren't retcons, BioWare decided(Or as an early post pointed out, probably was paid) to not have them bi. In the final game, they are not bi, the voice recordings are dug up from files that were cut from the final version. Just because obsessive fans dig something up that was cut, doesn't make it canon and therefore does not make it a retcon when BioWare says not going to happen.

And on that note, I'll contribute something to the topic: I'm a fan, I love Mass Effect and it's universe, and though I give the gay/bi people grief, I happen to love the fact they are so vocal about their opinions. But I'm also glad that Kaidan and Ashley were made straight characters instead of the starting off bi, to me it seemed much more appealing to have Male Shep with Ashley and FemShep with Kaidan, they work together as personalities, not just genders. And not because I seem to have a problem with gays. I don't, they are fun to tease(my best friend is gay, and I give him grief all the time). 

My only hope is that IF all the characters are made bi(like DA2), that there are clear paths to say Yes or No. The problem in ME2 was trying to get all the story of a character, but to do that most of the options led to romance. I just hope BioWare can balance talking like friends, to trying to get it on. There are romance sub-plots, I just wish there were friendship sub-plots alongside those. So you don't have to have nine play throughs to get every story of every character. 

Just my two cents.

[KyreneZA]

kumquats wrote...

I don't believe they will add Mordin as a LI for me, just because I demand it.

But they must. And they must include my Blasto as LI too. We demand it! We're vocal! We're a minority!

[FoxShadowblade]

Kyrene wrote...

kumquats wrote...

I don't believe they will add Mordin as a LI for me, just because I demand it.

But they must. And they must include my Blasto as LI too. We demand it! We're vocal! We're a minority!

Mordin? What is this, some kind of egg fetish?

... Nevermind, I don't wanna know.

[shepskisaac]

Kyrene wrote...
Yes, you said. I just fixed it for you, since he would have had to have been bisexual from ME1 to be bisexual in ME3.

No I didn't say he's gay. I said they cut his gay romance. Gay is an adjective in this sentence, describing that the romance I'm talking about was between two males.

Kyrene wrote...
That makes no sense. Because they cut Kaidan content he must be bisexual, but because they cut content for Tali she must be asexual?

I didn't say that. I only used your logic against you. IMO Cutting Kaidan's romance with male Shepard didn't cut his attraction to males in general just as cutting Tali's romance with male Shepard in ME1 didn't cut her atraction to males in general. But it was you who argued that cutting Kaidan's gay romance automatically cut his attraction to males in general while with Tali you argued that it didn't. You said something that didn't make sense,

Kyrene wrote...
No. He snaps and loses control when an **** of a turian goes too far. Romance has nothing to do with it. He even admits that there never was anything serious between him and Rana. You have as selective a memory as you have a grasp of the obvious.

Lulz selective memory. Time to refresh your memory. www.youtube.com/watch
Shepard: I don't see you snapping very easily, what finally did it?
Kaidan: He hurt Rahna. Broke her arm.
[...]
Shepard: You wanted to help a girl you cared for. That's a noble thing.
Kaidan: Maybe my intentions were noble. But I lost control. I killed him, Shepard.

And then he says their relationship never went anywhere because Rahna was afraid of him after what he did to Vyrnnus.

Kyrene wrote...
Just because I oppose changing established (in game, not in cut content) character's sexuality I'm homophobic, right? I wonder who is the bigot here?

Running out of arguments so you want me to call you a homophobe so you can play the victim card? Ain't happening. You say you're up for what makes sense, well guess what, it makes sense for Kaidan to be bisexual. Not only at no point he denies attraction to males or turns male Shepard down, there are actual non-meta-gaming reasons (Horizon) to think he has feelings for male Shepard just as he has for unromanced female Shepard.

[kumquats]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

kumquats wrote...

I don't believe they will add Mordin as a LI for me, just because I demand it.

But they must. And they must include my Blasto as LI too. We demand it! We're vocal! We're a minority!

Mordin? What is this, some kind of egg fetish?

... Nevermind, I don't wanna know.

More a nerdy scientist fetish.
Sheldon Cooper is the man of my dreams. <3

[FoxShadowblade]

kumquats wrote...

FoxShadowblade wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

kumquats wrote...

I don't believe they will add Mordin as a LI for me, just because I demand it.

But they must. And they must include my Blasto as LI too. We demand it! We're vocal! We're a minority!

Mordin? What is this, some kind of egg fetish?

... Nevermind, I don't wanna know.

More a nerdy scientist fetish.
Sheldon Cooper is the man of my dreams. <3

Totally understandable. 

[KyreneZA]

IsaacShep wrote...

You say you're up for what makes sense, well guess what, it makes sense for Kaidan to be bisexual. Not only at no point he denies attraction to males or turns male Shepard down, there are actual non-meta-gaming reasons (Horizon) to think he has feelings for male Shepard just as he has for unromanced female Shepard.

Well since he's for all intents and purposes (the non-cut content left over in the finished game) straight in ME1, he won't deny any attraction to males, because he doesn't need to and never turns male Shepard down because they're just friends. Horizon is not a reason, much as you feverishly wish it so. Or rather it is only a reason to you in your opinion/mind. Your whole argument is a circular house of cards:
- Because of cut content (ie. non-canonical evidence) he was gay/bi in ME1.
- Therefore, because he was gay/bi in ME1, what he said on Horizon had to be because he was gay/bi.
- What he said on Horizon was gay/bi because he lost control because of (heterosexual) romantic reasons at BAaT.
- He lost control because of (heterosexual) romantic reasons at BAaT, not because he had a military talon in his face.

Yup. All of the above proves that Kaidan is the perfect candidate for "suddenly bisexual" in ME3.

Modifié par Kyrene, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:42 .

[shepskisaac]

Kyrene wrote...
- Because of cut content (ie. non-canonical evidence) he was gay/bi in ME1.
- Therefore, because he was gay/bi in ME1, what he said on Horizon had to be because he was gay/bi..

See, there's not even need for his cut gay romance for Horizon to be good enough reason why he's bisexual. Anyone who would say what he said and act how he acted on Horizon towards my Shep would make me wonder if it ain't more than just 'friendship'. Especially considering how similar his reaction is to openly romanced FemShep.

Kyrene wrote...
- What he said on Horizon was gay/bi because he lost control because of (heterosexual) romantic reasons at BAaT.

Rahna's gender doesn't have anything to do here. He lost control because of the romantic feelings he had for the person Vyrnnus hurt.

Kyrene wrote...
- He lost control because of (heterosexual) romantic reasons at BAaT, not because he had a military talon in his face.

I just posted you quotes and videos when he says that LOL. Are in-game, non-cut convertsations not good enough evidence for you anymore? Not canon enough? Will you deny everything, no matter what it is and how illogical denying it is just because you don't like the idea of Kaidan being bisexual?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:12 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I wish Bioware would already reveal all the LI there are too many threads about em!

[Sshodan]

@ IsaacShep
There is one issue you obviously did not consider - Kainan never tells femShep that he is bi
All Bioware romances that where written as bi to begin with are very obviously so - Zevran will ask femWarden if she has a problem with it, Liliana mentions that she had a female lover, Anders mentioned his "first" at last to maleHawk (he does not tell femHawk that he is bi, but neither he shares his "blow up something to make a point" plan, so hiding things are obviously part of his personality) Isabella is obviously Bi.
Kaidan on the other hand never even hints. So either he is hiding something big from femShep, that may be a problem for her and something players romancing him may not want to discover after 3 games, or hi isn't written to be such.
Now I don't usually mind the "no sexuality as a part of character, will respond to flirts from anyone" approach, but I have to admit it takes away form the personalization and weakens the writing in general - I'd prefer ME3 to avoid that route.
I do not particularly object to him being a s/s option, but if Bioware decided to do so they have to find a way to not only pleas thous who want s/s romance with him, but keep thous who have hetro romance with him happy as well, and right now I just don't see how they can active that without weakening his personalization.

@ BatmanPWNS
You do realize that it's a "Character and Romance Discussion"? What else you expect to be discussed here if not characters and romances?

Modifié par Sshodan, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[Sshodan]

@: Ferris95
It does not - if the character is written as bi - I love Zev and Isabella to bits, nothing weak about them. But there is a difference between character that is written as bi and character that simply can't tell the players gender and responds the same to everyone.

[Sshodan]

@ Ferris95
It's ok I do tend to type rather lengthly posts

[shepskisaac]

Sshodan wrote...

@ IsaacShep
There is one issue you obviously did not consider - Kainan never tells femShep that he is bi
All Bioware romances that where written as bi to begin with are very obviously so - Zevran will ask femWarden if she has a problem with it, Liliana mentions that she had a female lover, Anders mentioned his "first" at last to maleHawk (he does not tell femHawk that he is bi, but neither he shares his "blow up something to make a point" plan, so hiding things are obviously part of his personality) Isabella is obviously Bi.
Kaidan on the other hand never even hints. So either he is hiding something big from femShep, that may be a problem for her and something players romancing him may not want to discover after 3 games, or hi isn't written to be such.
Now I don't usually mind the "no sexuality as a part of character, will respond to flirts from anyone" approach, but I have to admit it takes away form the personalization and weakens the writing in general - I'd prefer ME3 to avoid that route.
I do not particularly object to him being a s/s option, but if Bioware decided to do so they have to find a way to not only pleas thous who want s/s romance with him, but keep thous who have hetro romance with him happy as well, and right now I just don't see how they can active that without weakening his personalization.

@ BatmanPWNS
You do realize that it's a "Character and Romance Discussion"? What else you expect to be discussed here if not characters and romances?

These are Dragon Age characters and Dragon Age world only though, not Mass Effect and Anders/Zevran are not Kaidan. In Jade Empire for example, Sky never mentions anything gay/bi until you initiate a gay romance with him yourself (and to do that you have to first explictly turn down both females that hit on you and then pick a single option at a right time and in the right sequence or you miss a chance to have gay romance with him). Different characters are written differently. Kaidan is written to mention things only when they're relevant, not bring them up just like that. Rahna was relevant and key part of the Vyrnnus story. When he brings up his appreciation for Asari's looks, it is either when the squad is in a strip club with Asaris dancing half-naked around, or when beautiful Liara joins the squad. He doesn't do that when talking with Shep and going "Yeah aliens are weird sometimes but these Asari chikcs are hawt!" before even encountering any asari in ME1.

And apart from these comments (teenage love with Rahna and appreciation for Asari's looks), what exactly do we know about his love life? Nothing. We know nothing about his love life in the past 15 years since Rahna. Surely he must've been with someone in that time right? At least one actual adult relationship right? Then why didn't he bring it up to FemShep during their romance? If he didn't bring that, why would he bring up a relationship with a guy? Heck, it's possible he wasn't in any relationship, for all we know about his love life he could still be a virgin (I know I know, but based on what we know, or rather how much we don't know, it's technically possible).

Lovelife-wise, he's a big blank slate even in heterosexual context. Even his Asari comments are confusing as to what exactly he has on his minds, whether he thinks of them as beautiful as he would think about a beautiful sculpture or is he attracted to them physically, as when questioned if he has any intentions towards Liara after he comments that she's beautiful and whatnot, he answers to BOTH ManShep and FemShep (in both romance and no-romance-yet cases) that he doesn't and it's just 'art appreciation'. And with FemShep, he later additionally adds that Liara ain't his taste at all ("She's a very interesting lady. Not to my tastes, but I've never claimed to be big on alien culture" line). And when it comes to humans, again there's just Rahna who happened 15 years before ME1. There's also a doctor from a Citadel he went on for drinks, but it's after ME1 already and rather clear anyway that it was his friends making him to do something to move on with his life (after FemShep "died"). And the doctor doesn't even have a specified gender interestingly.

EDIT: Sorry Sshodan for wall of text, I sometimes don't know how to summarize my thoughts better

Modifié par IsaacShep, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:29 .

[Abispa]

Well, the don't-ruin-my-immersion fans can breathe a little easier since Bioware twitters say the Krogans have pretty much been taken off the table (and they'd probably use that table if they could).

[Sshodan]

I played JE... And hated Sky
On a serious note Sky was straight. He had family and a child (or was it children?) and a player could convince him to give a s/s relationships a try. So yes, he had a set orientation.
You skipped my point - Kaiden being bi is very much relevant if he is romancing femShep - when you sleep with someone it's generally considered appropriate to inform them of your orientation and make sure they are ok with it. And no, discussing old flames is not necessary - mostly of the guys/girls don't really want to hear about your exes.
Everyone knows that if you aren't a virgin you had previous relationships, there is no need to clarify that, but they are over now, and do not matter for your future together with your current partner.
You being bisexual is something you are - it woun't go away simply because your current partner is male/female. I know plenty of lesbians who will not accept a bisexual girl as lover, it is an issue for them, I know that if a man is religious it can be a problem for him as well. So unless you want your relationships to bow up in your face spectacularly you tell your potential partner your preferences before binging them.
Having sad that I wound be able to accept Kaiden being a Sky like option - a previously straight guy that you can persuade to try something new if you are playing maleShep. It'll live him "straight by default" for thous who romanced him already ,but open up new options.
And the walls of text are ok - since I writhe them my self I deserve to read the ones typed by others

[shepskisaac]

Point is, what you say, that mentioning you're bi early is appropriate, is a very personal POV. Your POV. I've pretty much heard as much "he/she should tell it early in the relationship" arguments as I've heard "it doesn't matter, it's all about not cheating and sticking with one person". If we take what's said in ME1, then Kaidan's position on this subject seems to be the latter. During the Liara triangle scene , when he says he didn't realize Shep preferred other women and thinks she's a lesbian and he just misunderstood her, if you pick "You're special to me Kaidan" and then that Liara's special to you too, you make it clear your FemShep is bisexual and well, fancies both. Kaidan doesn't make a problem of it, he only wants her to pick and stick to one person. If he approaches Shep's bisexuality this way and never makes a problem of it later after Shep chose him, I doubt he would view it different in his case.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .

[Sshodan]

Kaidan's POV is good and well, but remember - the game is not about Kainan, it's bout Shep, and a player behind him. So what do you propose to do with people for whom Kaiden being bi is unacceptable? Woman who find the idea of their current lover having experience with other man distasteful? Religious types? And thous who do not appreciate Kaidan holding that info back during the initial romance? He was "sold" to thous people as a straight LI, having him turn bi is not exactly considerate to them now is it? A person may be ok with bisexuals, and still not want to find one under their own blanket
So if they implement s/s romance for Kaidan having him hide his sexuality in previous games is not exactly a way to go about it.

[Ryzaki]

Uh...actually the males don't tell the females that they're into men. The only one who did was Zevran. It certainly isn't something that is common. 

Sky didn't tell the female anything (though he was a case of "If it's you its okay" so it made sense)
Fenris didn't tell the female anything
Anders didn't tell the female anything

So far it's only 1 out of 4 that tell the female player about their bisexuality. 

As for players that absolutely refuse to have bisexual LIs I guess they'll have to do the same thing the people who wanted exclusive s/s romances do. Either ignore the s/s romance or not have an LI. I'm certainly not crying a river because you refuse to romance a bi option. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 juillet 2011 - 12:33 .