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[shepskisaac]

Sshodan wrote...

So what do you propose to do with people for whom Kaiden being bi is unacceptable? Woman who find the idea of their current lover having experience with other man distasteful? Religious types? And thous who do not appreciate Kaidan holding that info back during the initial romance? He was "sold" to thous people as a straight LI, having him turn bi is not exactly considerate to them now is it? A person may be ok with bisexuals, and still not want to find one under their own blanket
So if they implement s/s romance for Kaidan having him hide his sexuality in previous games is not exactly a way to go about it.

Not sure what exactly should be proposed to people who find Kaidan's bisexuality unacceptable. Nothing changes for those who are already romancing Kaidan, that's the point. He's not gonna run to a guy from your FemShep. He's not gonna brag about his past guys, that's not in his character just as he never bragged about his past female lovers. The only time he did was Rahna (who he didn't even sleep with) as she was part of the Vyrnnus story like I've mentioned. Religious types I'm not even gonna consider. They're playing a game with killing hunders of human and alien beings (the ultimate sin in every religion) which pretty nullifies any complaints. And I'm not sure how he was sold as a straight LI. He was definitely sold as a LI attracted to girls (FemShep), but him being into guys was never denided. You could say Anders was "sold" as a straight LI as well because he doesn't mention to Lady Hawke his past male lover. In the end, we're duscissing most meta-gaming knowledge. Options shouldn't be restricted based on the fact the players learn stuff from other players' playthroughs. And again, in FemShep's world Kaidan's with her at the moment and no one else. Liking guys is equal to him as liking other women in the context of a relationship with FemShep.

[Sshodan]

Nothing except for his personality - and that is a big thing.
As I sad - for me him being bi would be a +, but that is because I'm bi my self and I'm generally attracted to other bisexuals. But other people have a right for their points of view as well. Currently noting in the game history suggests that Kaidan is bi - any "evidence" can be easily disputed. No, no one said outright that he is straight, but like it or not straight is a "default setting" in peoples mind, meaning that if there is no evidence to the contrary than the character is straight. And there was no evidence for 2 games...
Meta gaming or not, but if Kaidan is a s/s option it'll become a wildly spread knowledge in 10 min. flat, one will have to be blind, deaf and devote of Internet connection and gaming friends to miss it So no good writer would simply pretend that we live in "theoretical world where no one has any previous knowledge and never will have it" - if issue exist it has to be dealt with.
So if Kaidan is suddenly bi there has to be a logical explanation - a self discovery in the last two years, him bing straight but willing to change for Shep or whatever a writer can come up with but it should not be something that is just dropped on the players head with "oh, you did not know? I'm actually bi, sorry I never mentioned it". That would be just... Uninspired.

[shepskisaac]

Sshodan wrote...
but it should not be something that is just dropped on the players head with "oh, you did not know? I'm actually bi, sorry I never mentioned it". That would be just... Uninspired.

And the most realistic considering there ARE in-game evidences Kaidan's bi -> the Horizon scene. What he says to manShep (and unromanced FemShep) clearly suggests he has romantic feelings for them. Not to mention it would be far more realistic than "I'm a 35 years old guy but I've never thought about having sex with a guy before I've met you Shepard".

[IndigoWolfe]

Evidence for a character being secretly bisexual seems to be very prevalent when one is looking for it and wishes it to be there.

[Sepewrath]

They haven't shown any that I've seen, like the above poster said, you can see it if you want to. 

Modifié par Sepewrath, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:26 .

[jlb524]

Sexuality is srs bsns.

My all time favorite argument is the notion that making more people open to both Shepards will make the LIs 'cardboard cutouts' because they are all bisexual (as if they have no other characteristics that make them unique from each other...of course not!)

However, having all heterosexual LIs does not mean that the LIs lose any uniqueness or become cardboard cutouts, apparently. If so, the ME2 LIs were the most boring and cookie-cutter of the bunch.

[shepskisaac]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Evidence for a character being secretly bisexual seems to be very prevalent when one is looking for it and wishes it to be there.

Evidence is evidence and you can't do anything about it. It's there in the games, it's valid.

[ADLegend21]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Evidence for a character being secretly bisexual seems to be very prevalent when one is looking for it and wishes it to be there.

but if ti's a secret, then there's no evidence...or else it's not a secret.

[GodWood]

IsaacShep wrote...

GodWood wrote...
So basically 2/3 of Shepard's squad wanted to bang him?

No thankyou. It was bad enough with Tali's "I've always loved you" crap.

Make Vega the m/m romance.

And among that only 1 guy. If you wanna complain about lack of realism, complain about too many females wanting to get into Shep's pants.

Making more members of the original squad want to bang Shepard does not help the problem.
It only exacerbates it.

Just accept that Kaidan's not interested and move on.

[Sshodan]

@ IsaacShep
I think I need to try this form another angle to make myself understood better.
Contrary to the popular believe bisexuality is not a "lack of sexual orientation and preferences" as mostly it is done in games (recent examples Meri & Fenris), but a complex and unique set of reaction and character trails that are part of ones personality (good examples - Zevran & Liliana).
If you are bisexual it is part of you. it influences your live much the same way as being gay or straight does. Sure you can hide it, but who would want to?
Imagen being in a s/s relationship where every day you have to pretend that you are just f*** buddies and do each other "because it's convenient" and "there is no suitable ladies around", when you have to pretend that, really, truly you are straight and would go back to dating girls the moment you had a chance, discuss your "love for female form" with your lover, collect porn with huge breasts and so on. Sure - you get your s/s relationship, but will it be in any way satisfying? Not being accepted for how you are and having to hide "the big dark secret" every day of your live?
The same is with being bi- sure, you can hide it, but what are the relationship worth if you do? Id does not feel good, or right to lie abut yourself, and omission in this case is a lie. It means you can't tell your partner a thousand things about yourself, starting with the fact that you find a certain actor/actress to be very attractive and ending with half of your former relationships, even if he asks or even if your ex have shown up in town.
Bisexuality although is twice as complex when in comes to the actual preferences - some people are attracted to "gender neutral" things and do not care about gender, other are attracted to "gender specific" things that are found in deferent gender and as a consequences will always feel the absence of something when they try to stay with one partner, that has to be addressed in one way or another if the relationship is to succeed. There are thous bi who are sexually attracted to both genders but are unlikely to feel emotional connection with one of the genders (may find it fun to sleep with both but can fall in love only with male/female partner), and that are good old "leanings" majority of bisexuals lean towards one gender or another finding it attractive more often.
Realizing that you are bi, and understanding yourself is no easier than realizing you are gay, the fact that one can lead a "normal" live on the surface does not help much, because if you want to pretend you'll have to loose a part of yourself.
And again much like with homosexuality, bisexuality has no bearing on job or surface social contacts, so it would hardly be noticeable if Shep and Kaidan are just acquiescences or colleagues, but if he is bi he'd have to lie his head off to hide it from his partner.
To summaries - being bisexual is a big deal for a person, if he is and you are sleeping with him you won't miss it.
I consider characters who trully are bi to be a good addition to any game, I'm all for it, but not characters who have no gender preferences and just sprout the same lines on anyone regardless of gender - it cheapens the romance. Bisexual char would react differently to the person of different genders (DA:O Zev is outrageously flirty with a femaleWarden but is more reserved with a male, letting him lead more), will find different things attractive (again Zev tells in a dialog that his reason for fighting comes with a set of beautiful eyes/strong hands) and interact with people of different genders in accordance to their gender (Zevs complements are gender specific for the most part), the character has to recognize the other persons gender not just have a "react to everyone" checked in his description.
So if Kaidan suddenly turns out to be bi, it would be a "suddenly turns out" not "always have been". You say there are evidence of attraction to his own gender? Well than he clearly was in denial up until he turned 30 something and met Shep, not that unusual if you are bi - it's easier to full on self in to "I'm hetro that was just the "alcohol" "age thing" "hormones" "experimentation"..." the list goes on.
If they want Kaidan as a bi option, in order not to cheapen his characterization they'll have to address the issue if him "suddenly discovering "a "new side of himself".

P.S. Gah... I hope you got my point- no way I' typing all of that ever again LOL

Modifié par Sshodan, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:34 .

[KyreneZA]

IsaacShep wrote...

See, there's not even need for his cut gay romance for Horizon to be good enough reason why he's bisexual. Anyone who would say what he said and act how he acted on Horizon towards my Shep would make me wonder if it ain't more than just 'friendship'. Especially considering how similar his reaction is to openly romanced FemShep.

Emphasis mine. Again, your wishing it so, doesn't make it so. I guess on some level the bad (and copy-'n-paste) writing for that Horizon scene does work. You came away from it believing Kaidan is gay, I came away thinking he used to be Shepard's friend/ex-LI who may be prone to denial.

Rahna's gender doesn't have anything to do here.

I'll give you that, as seemingly straight people can come out later in life.

He lost control because of the romantic feelings he had for the person Vyrnnus hurt.

I just posted you quotes and videos when he says that LOL. Are in-game, non-cut convertsations not good enough evidence for you anymore? Not canon enough?

Were we even watching the same video clip? Do you agree with the following synopsis?
He liked Rana (sp.)
Virnus hurt her and Kaidan stood up to defend her (not losing control yet, only wanting to do something).
Virnus lost it and in the ensuing (escalating) argument a knife came out.
Kaidan then only lost it and biotic kicked the turian into the afterlife.

Will you deny everything, no matter what it is and how illogical denying it is just because you don't like the idea of Kaidan being bisexual?

Will you deny everything, no matter what it is and how illogical denying it is just because you like the idea of Kaidan being bisexual?
For the record, I like the idea of him being bisexual (same goes for Jack, but for different reasons; and certainly far more than some of the other established characters), but I object to the "proof" you endlessly submit to justify it. "I want Kaidan to be bi because I want it" is a valid reason you know. No need to try and justify it by using cut content and flimsy (and subjective) proof from in game.

[shepskisaac]

GodWood wrote...
Just accept that Kaidan's not interested and move on.

Listen to what he has to say on Horizon, read this post, accept he's interested and will be available to romance in ME3 and move on.

Kyrene wrote...
Emphasis mine. Again, your wishing it so, doesn't make it so. I guess on some level the bad (and copy-'n-paste) writing for that Horizon scene does work. You came away from it believing Kaidan is gay, I came away thinking he used to be Shepard's friend/ex-LI who may be prone to denial.

Bad writing or not, it's part of the story, canon, and just as good line to use as evidence as the best written lines in ME1 & ME2.

Kyrene wrote...
Were we even watching the same video clip? Do you agree with the following synopsis?
He liked Rana (sp.)
Virnus hurt her and Kaidan stood up to defend her (not losing control yet, only wanting to do something).
Virnus lost it and in the ensuing (escalating) argument a knife came out.
Kaidan then only lost it and biotic kicked the turian into the afterlife.

Obviously he would defend himself having a knife being pulled right in his face, as anyone would. But the reason his biotic push was this strong, so strong to kill Vyrnnus and almost as strong as he's able to pull 15 years later, was because of his feelings for Rahna and what Vyrnnus did to her. Feelings for Rahna are at the core/bottom of everything that happens in that moment. Even Shepard interprets the situation as being caused because Kaidan had feelings for Rahna, he SAYS it "You wanted to help a girl you cared for. That's a noble thing". If Shepard interprets it this way, then so does BW and that's the correct interpretation, that's what the author intended & wrote. And Kaidan confirms Shepard's interpretation of the situation himself! When Shepard says it, he responds "Maybe my intentions were noble. But I lost control". He confirms Shepard's interpretation of the situation.

@Sshodan
Understand your point fully and it's a perfectly valid, reasonable POV. But like I've said earlier, it is still your POV on this matter. In-game content and how Kaidan's written suggest he has a different approach to such things. Characters in games don't have to share our way of understanding things. Having characters do things differently than the players would want them to, based on their own way they approach such things, is not cheapening of the romance. It's only people accting independently and based on their own reasonings. Characters can't know how the players/readers/viewers will judge their actions, whether they will say "yes, he/she did exactly how he/she should've" or the opposite.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:34 .

[Sshodan]

@ IsaacShep
You do remember that Kaidan is not written by you? And that you do not have a monopoly to interpret his behavior?
I although played ME, both parts, I romanced Kaidan, I went thought Horizon with both genders and during all of that I so no indication of him being bi. The most I can give you is that he has some confused mixed feelings, and only in Horizon scene, but he never came of as harboring any kind of secret love for maleShep.
As for what I explained, no it's not "just my PVO" it is an overview of what "bisexual" really means - saying that being bi means not having sexual orientation, or that it does not matter in terms of character personalization in romantic relationship is an offensive statement, much like saying that being gay is a choice, or that gay man would jump any man given a chance. The fact that people do not seams to understand it does not make it right.
If Bioware choses to make a character bi I'd prefer them to do it in a whay that makes sense.

[mya11]

Sshodan wrote...

@ IsaacShep
You do remember that Kaidan is not written by you? And that you do not have a monopoly to interpret his behavior?
I although played ME, both parts, I romanced Kaidan, I went thought Horizon with both genders and during all of that I so no indication of him being bi. The most I can give you is that he has some confused mixed feelings, and only in Horizon scene, but he never came of as harboring any kind of secret love for maleShep.
As for what I explained, no it's not "just my PVO" it is an overview of what "bisexual" really means - saying that being bi means not having sexual orientation, or that it does not matter in terms of character personalization in romantic relationship is an offensive statement, much like saying that being gay is a choice, or that gay man would jump any man given a chance. The fact that people do not seams to understand it does not make it right.
If Bioware choses to make a character bi I'd prefer them to do it in a whay that makes sense.

Totality agree with you for your points^_^

[Eromenos]

 [quote]ReconTeam wrote...
No they do not. They don't owe you, or me, or anybody a damned thing. You are being complete irrational now. The only people they owe is their shareholders and investors. You ought to understand this before you start making demands from them.
[/quote]
Indeed, BioWare does owe us. They thought to have it both ways by exploiting exclusively bisexual hourglasses as toys for dudebros and then thought to ride that wave as if they're Big Damn Heroes for inclusiveness. Wrong. BioWare doesn't get to move a muscle without getting called on their willful BS at all times.

Last I checked, shareholders and investors are every bit as part of the business as  producers/developers are. As in, all of them collectively answer to the good-will and spending power of consumers/clients....which, as I will always point out, demonstrably include greater and greater quantities of your dreaded vocal queer gamers and queer-friendly straight gamers.
[quote]
Yeah you think, you've been wronged, but that does not make it so. There is no purposeful exclusion and "people like you" are no more special than the rest of us. You are exactly the type of over-entitled fanboy I am talking about! Your standard are so warped you think you are being oppressed if you don't get what you want. Heteropatriarchal? If that's even a word it's a load of nonsense. The fact that you don't have a quota doesn't mean you are being discirminated against.
[/quote]
Tsk. You said yourself I'm no more special than anyone else. And yet you think seeing lots of "my people" mixed together with str8s is just too much. You should try to start making sense, any day now.

Come to think of it, since we're on this I'd say you're the one who feels wronged. That's sad. The idea of enduring queer male presences throughout your pimp-frigate would no doubt be jarring for one such as you.

You are exactly the type of over-entitled fanboy I am talking about! Your standard are so warped you think you are being oppressed if you don't get what you want. I didn't even need to fix that one. Well thanks, that helped.

Mmm, yes. H-e-t-e-r-o-p-a-t-r-i-a-r-c-h-a-l. H-e-t-e-r-o-p-a-t-r-i-a-r-c-h-y. I'm sure Google will attend to you. Google Scholar would be better.

You often use light terms regarding "imagined" oppressions. "Discriminated against" sounds so much better for your claims, as it helps you to try minimizing and hopefully dismissing something that is larger, uglier, enduring...but which you can shut from your head if you box it into a throwaway sound-byte you're used to throwing around. Terms like "homophobic distancing" don't suit your purposes quite so well, I'll admit. Your use of "discrimination" implies that slanted information goes both ways as if queer and straight are at equal political standing, with all the current focus on queer meaning that in your book some sort of imbalance has occurred. This is just you wanting to distract from oppressions that are "mundane and invisible" by way of heterocentric over-valuing of exclusive M/F couplings. Anyway, the truth you don't like is that slanted information does not flow both ways in equal measure at all; the homophobic approach to media depictions such as ME is the "norm" you value so much. The "norm" by which you base everything doesn't exist without condemning all other sexualities into far less than the equals they truly are to M/F interactions. They are all norms. This heterosexuality you speak of...it is never more special than my homosexuality. Someone like you claiming otherwise does not make it true.
[quote]
You missed me point. Let my repeat myself, why does any of these need to be determined in game? The answer? It doesn't. You just want it to be, nothing more. You want this sort of nonsense? Then ask for it, but cut the "we're being discriminated against" whining.
[/quote]
I presume that you  go on about hetero being some "default" in every person's beginning no-questions-asked regardiing life as well as character creator. At least, repeating as such is your way of wishing it were so. Alas. In ME as in life, people determine their sexualities. Someone who pursues an opposite-sex relationship or coupling is performing heterosexuality. Someone who pursues a same-sex relationship or coupling is performing homosexuality. And, those who can manage both to some degree are performing bisexuality.

I know. Oh, I know. 'Tis scandalous to level the heteros down into some baseline next to the queers. This is me telling you that because straights in ME get to determine themselves, then so shall I. That is what ME owes me, if you'll recall.

You'd rather we be "nice queers" who act like pets grateful for a bone. I think not; I've had more success when bashing my detractors' failings rather than play nice to their faults. I prefer my way because I'm not the one who has to play up to homophobic framing about me or anyone like me. Dredging up BioWare's homophobia rightfully directs the burden back onto them. Remember! Homophobia. Not discrimination. Homophobia.

This relates so much to you playing white-knight for a corporation that cares not for either of us besides both our spending potentials. And, spin potential. If I don't dredge up BioWare's cavalier exploitation of homophobic politics for your sake, you get to sleep better thinking your bros there are model citizens. It's not my responsibility to help you sleep.
[quote]
Express who she/he is? You're losing (or already lost) sight of what this game is, it isn't about "gay Shepard's journey". It's not some sort of dating simulator. Your sexuality isn't half as important think it is. This feelgood nonsense of yours has little to no bearing in the game. The last two titles of the series confirm that.
[/quote]
Express who she/he is? Mmm, yes, that quirky fulcrum of role-playing. And life, too. Queers and straights both do this to establish their identities as sexual human beings. The "default norm" is just a pretty homophobic way of elevating straightness well over its due.

http://cinemademerde..._Straight.shtml

The king character mentioned in the article was made to express copious overcompensating (and conjectural at best) exclusive heterosexuality to the point of performing overt distancing homophobia. Now, we know in ME a person does not need to go quite so far just to establish heterosexuality, or even opposite-sex leanings. But both 300 and ME have been equally homophobic insofar as they consistently denied expressions of affirming homosexual male relationships or couplings.
[quote]
Oh... so here it is. Now I don't know what sociology 101 taught you, but heterosexuality is the standard and is NOT a social construct. Nor are gender roles or many of the other things you probably think are social constructs. Homphobic laws and culture? Vilifying you? Please don't tell me you're serious here. Surely you don't believe what you're typing now, do you? To your credit however, at least you explain your beliefs rather than spam stuff like Blaclash.
[/quote]
Excuse me, but in SOC 101 everything was always and still are social constructs. My mostly apolitical classroom didn't go to the lengths I do regarding analysis of human sexuality, but the teacher at least did us the service of pointing out that the "norm" privilege behind the exclusive label is arbitrary and mandated by hypocrites. Gender roles too. People who exert those homophobic/sexist laws and culture do so to monopolize their own gains. Wannabes attach themselves to these methods as well. The ME devs fall in here.

[quote]
The majority of the human population has always been heterosexual, it always will be heterosexual. This is simple biology. Twist the numbers however you like but even if Mass Effect's society is 99% heterosexual and 1% bisexual, it doesn't matter. This isn't an important aspect to the game and nobody owes you quotas.
[/quote]
Nay. Since we're still on this, the majority of people are bisexual to some small or large degree. The middle/gray area in the spectrum. Most people in the U.S., for example, perform and express heterosexuality the majority of the time because of homophobia, but a great many of them harbor life-long same-sex feelings of attraction. It can be "minor" such as simply being able to recognize and appreciate what others may like in one's own sex, "moderate" like feeling attracted to same-sex friends, or "major" like full-blown passion. Plus anything and everything in between those. Since most of the people we're talking about cling to socialized confinements within their gender-roles in the U.S., they'll identify as straight so from a physical standpoint, they're straight the majority of their lives on the outside. Even then, the ratio between those who perform hetero and those who perform any and all other forms of sexuality is nowhere near the imbalance you'd prefer.

Few people are 100% ****** or hetero. But I agree none of that's important to you. What's important to you is barking about excessively lopsided beliefs that skew in favor of the imagined exclusive straightness you've overlaid onto the world. So it may not matter to you, but it does matter. Euphemistically speaking, I'd prefer not to be sidelined for your comforts. Frankly speaking, I feel no responsibility if you end up with nightmares about Commander John Shepard and Commander Kaidan Alenko grinding in the AI Core.

The majority of the human population has always been heterosexual, it always will be heterosexual. Do you know your ancient histories? Native American cultures pre-genocide and Greek traditions pre-Christianism are just two that run counter to your claims. They may not be easy reading for you, but they do make great reading.
[quote]

Voice being heard? You're damned obnoxious on these boards. Your more vocal than the damned Tali fanboys and that is saying a ton! There certainly can't be any middle ground with somebody like yourself who wants to see society engineered into some deranged vision of theirs. I would much rather have stability and the status quo than whatever your fanatical views would create. There are however some more reasonable than yourselff who don't want the DA2 "solution" and, don't expect pre-existing characters to be made bisexual because you want to bang them! Damages people? This is a video game, it isn't reality, it's a work a fiction. If a lack of homosexuals hurts your fellings that's too bad. You don't deserve some sort of quota because you feel bad. How many times are you going to say "people like me?" I don't hate you, you're just some nameless individual on the internet. So cut the sob story.
[/quote]
I'm so glad we appear to get more attention than the Tali fanboys. That is a good thing. We need more queer. We need less fanboy-stroking. Such a coincidence that the homophobic ME2 team did so anyway for their Tali fanboys. And even their F/F fanboys. How odd. How odd.

My use of "people like me" refers to the many queer gamers(at the least, since you and I are ultimately debating video games here) who play BioWare products and who deserve to be treated as well as straight gamers are. But thanks for reminding me I'm an individual too. Even though your iintent was to make it seem like queer gamers and queer-friendly straight gamers are isolated targets you're entitled to talking down to at your leisure...because apparently we're just individuals who know nobody and who nobody knows?
[quote]

You're offended by my use of different? It's the "diversity police" fanatics like yourself who make people like me sit through "diversity seminars" rather than actually do my job. It isn't a "constructed" hierarchy. It's statistics thanks to genetics.

[/quote]

Offended? If I were the type to fall for derailment tactics by bristling into defensiveness then I might go there. Rather, your socially constructed hierarchy of sexuality is something that must cling to overtly segregating language both for its authority and for its sustainability. Since you subscribe to it for the unearned privileges it confers upon you, your use of "different" in conjunction with your denouncement of queerness is just your backhanded way of reinforcing the monopoly that has always spoon-fed you.

[quote]

Stacked? I will not treat anybody special because of whom or what they choose to sleep with. I won't compromise my standards just because you want to tear down and rebuild society to your liking. You have no basis upon which to think I should adher to your social and moral views.

[/quote]

I will not treat anybody special because of whom or what they choose to sleep with. You're so helpful. ME devs have been insistently overvaluing straights while primarily exploiting F/F for the dudebros, and treating M/M as the worst thought to ever have. Contemptible on BioWare's part. Your words pretty much summed up my take on that.
[quote]Facts are stubborn things. You are still a small % and the fact that certain people like David Gaider buy into this political correct nonsense doesn't change that.  You want the real answer? The ME devs were pressured into this by the David Gaider PC types whose ego demands it and it also buys them press from journalist rags like the Escapist. [/quote]
I refuted your "small %" claim somewhere in this post...up above.

As for Gaider. Note that I've only ever said referred to the DA2 team. Gaider, judging by the last time he and I traded blows, is merely a liberal apologist.

First you claimed ME3's devs caved to us queers out of money(true!), now you're careening toward the thought that it was the DA2 team who somehow twisted ME3's arms. Why, wat happened? I'm going to guess it's this: the idea that ME's devs caving just like other institutions that are larger than BioWare is a reminder of developments you can't stand. Your accusing the DA2 team over this is like the conservatives ranting about "activist judges."  Those people. Easier that instead of facing the fact that more and more ME gamers queer and straight are visibly interested in S/S.

[quote]
So you feel some compulsive need to "reaffrim" that you are homosexual? Interesting. Yet that doesn't doesn't mean anybody owes you such a thing or that such development effort couldn't have been used better elsewhere. Of course, if I had my way you would sit back and accept the game you were given instead of behaving like a spoiled child. If you had your way you would walk all over any game developer and get whatever you demanded out of them. You refuse to compromise yet think I should just let you get whatever you want? Your expectations simply aren't grounded in reality and life's going to be a dissapointment to you.

[/quote]

So you feel some compulsive need to "reaffirm" that you are heterosexual? Fixed. That goes for all the str8 gamers who opt into the M/F romances. Oh, and the original one about me also stands. Absolutely. Where straights are able to exercise theirs, I will also exercise mine.

I've read the "resources better used elsewhere" argument before. Apparently ME2's M/F thingies weren't much good, lest you think that the "hetero default" of yours is so secure. Re-allocate those too! When it comes to the S/S resources specifically, I'm going to...suggest...they do what they did in DA2. Those romances were functionally identical for male and female sexes, aside for that misguided whitewashing that occurs when female Hawkes question Anders about Karl. So then, what exactly is the problem? Two birds, one stone.

Spoiled child...tsk. I'm so down. So down. So rotten! As it stands, I'm not one who ever subscribes to being "grateful for what I'm allowed." Putting a toe out of line is the least one can do when we detect there is something blatantly wrong, such as in the case of ME devs' persistent practice of homophobic tokenism.

I take it you've given up using race-issues to try derailing the importance of ME's queer visibility?

[quote]

You're blaming your sense of entitlement on Bioware? How typical. The fact that you weren't depicted to your liking doesn't mean they mismanged anything. Also I'm glad to see you finally stop pretending you don't only care about yourselves. "One dominating the other?" Are you seriously expecting a 50-50 split or believe that every LI should be bisexual? Because that is simply not justifiable. There is no need for quotas to correct anything. Only in your head there is.

[/quote]

Of course I'm entitled. I'm entitled to being treated with equitable S/S options that make it easy for me to be a male Commander Shepard who romantically and passionately loves another man. You can do your little heterocentric thingie to tweak my sentiment just now, you'll just be using str8 pronouns to demonstrate your own entitlement along similar lines.

So in your own way you're actually acknowledging that one particular sexuality is dominating the other(s) in ME1 and ME2 so far. Your automatic response is to critique me for not closing my own eyes and ears to the blatant issue at hand, while you simultaneously dismiss any means of redress out of convenience for your own priorities. Remember, I'm not like you. I can already live quite well with the DA2 model. Among its serious LIs, it couldn't have been more 50/50. The other 50/50 idea is not something I'm particularly keen on BioWare trying, all because their past "efforts" were cop-outs resulting in that roughly 99/1 split I've been mentioning. Not worth it. The DA2 method is the minimum standard, and realistically perhaps even the gold standard.

[quote]

Minimum standard? In case you missed it, DA2 was crap. The management of the LIs was crap for everybody but a handful that think like yourself too. DA:O did it far better and most people would agree with that. Mainstream heterosexist America?  Somebody with your fringe views has no right to be judging the United States. 

[/quote]

Actually, DAO was crap. The convos, romance or otherwise, were a horror in the coding or whatever. Mis-fires, no-fires, inexplicable timing, etc. Felt like they were written for a younger set too. Also as I've mentioned, the homophobic tokenism of bisexual characters then was unacceptable. I'm glad some people were able to have meaningful relationships with them, while at the same time, they should've been given all the options.

Yes, mainstream heterosexist America. To clarify, all the trappings we're used to...and which ME devs played into regarding their practice of homophobic exclusion towards queer males...are mainstream in that every person is affected by America's recognizable elements. But such things bear more unpleasant complexities as opposed to the simple things you take them as. From your ways, who benefits in the spectrum of diverse sexualities? Only those who are highest or higher in the monopoly that American culture has arranged, and which ME plays into. People who are straight or who perform the stereotypes of straightness for their sex.[quote]They shouldn't be made bisexual because you want them to be. Such an act on Bioware's part would be nothing more but pandering to spoiled children. I like said characters as they've already been established and don't feel they should be changed because you refuse to accept that they won't sleep with you. Negative stereotypes? I find it easier to relate with hetereosexuals, but this has nothing to do with stereotyping. If Bioware wants to pander to you, they should add a new character rather than make existing ones bisexual because of your demands. Now of course this James Vega would likely be violating every sort of regulation and standard imaginable for enlisted military personnel but it beats Garrus, Miranda, Ashley, and everybody else deciding they are bisexual.[/quote][/quote]
Oh, but they should. Actually they were both bisexual to begin with. Even without that Kinsey-esque argument I made earlier. Because from my memory, Kaidan and Ashley were never like you in this issue.

Regarding your comments about Vega...DADT is guaranteed to be on the way out. Do you follow the news? I realize that in your...heart...the fact that DADT's heart still beats on paper is the bright spot for you, but that's thankfully ending for the benefit of multitudes of queer servicemembers and their friends and families. Plus this country you love so much, as a whole. So given how the Systems Alliance militaries resemble Americans, and given the timing of Hudson skating in like he's some hero only after DADT was sent to repeal, James and Kaidan and Ashley all look to be primed for S/S passion.

If all the LIs are functionally bisexual, it'll be much better. So much better.

Modifié par Eromenos, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:49 .

[CaptREDKangaroo]

I'm not against bisexual but it's just unrealistic that every LI happens to be bisexual... also for est character suddenly being "Yup, I'm Bi" out of the blue that just loses disbelief for me... again, I'm for more of this option but... it has to be within context of the character not just because ppl want this option. Also makes replay better if you want to romance a LI who isn't bixsexual. Imo anyways.But there definitely could be and imo should be more Bi LI.

Modifié par CaptREDKangaroo, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:59 .

[Ryzaki]

Amazing that everyone being bisexual is unrealistic (instead of simply unlikely) while everyone being straight is perfectly realistic (instead of simply likely).

That's not bias at all.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I don't know how several LIs or every LI being bisexual is somehow unrealistic. I'm pretty sure I can't count the number of bisexuals in the world on one hand.

Or two, for that matter.

It's unLIKELY that they'd be on the same ship together, but it's not in the realm of impossible.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:13 .

[syllogi]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

Evidence for a character being secretly bisexual seems to be very prevalent when one is looking for it and wishes it to be there.

My co-workers and casual acquaitances assume that I am heterosexual because I am married to a man and have a kid.  I have never announced my sexual orientation, or talked about my past, present, or future sex life in the work place or with people I don't know well.

Despite this, my sexuality is not a "secret".  It's just none of anyone's business unless I decide it is relevant.

Generally, if someone is not my very good friend, or someone I want to get romantically involved with, I do not talk about my sexuality.  If people choose to put me in a category based on their own preconceptions, that's their problem.

[Agamo45]

Now you guys are seriously arguing that most people in real life are secretly ******. Christ, what is this world coming to.

[ubermensch007]

mya11 wrote...

I hope for the next licence in the future, Bioware make squadmates in the beginning who are hetero and gay and no change her sexualite for the last episode for the fanbase .

mya11... Tell me about it. People discover new things about themselves all the time.But I still don't forgive Joss Whedon for how he IMHO ruined my favorite charcter from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.Willow...She had a crush on Xander ever since they were kids.When they got older it became more than a crush, it was now 'unrequited love'.She dates Oz (Seth Green, the voice of Joker from ME: ironically enough) and though she cares for him a great deal and say that she loves him.When she finally get's her chance to be with Xander, she doesn't hesistate for a moment!
They stop fooling around - on the side.There respective girlfriend and boyfriend eventually forgive them.Well Cordeila doesn't take Xander back but Oz does get back with Willow.Then some time later he cheats on her, they break up.She starts to become more attached to her new college friend Tara.Oz founds out and for some reason or other, without any explanation Willow seems to have no attraction to any man ever again in her Sunnydale Life!

Some fans wanted her and Buffy to get together.This was one thing that Whedon said absolutely not to.But he threw those fans a bone, by having Willow the Witch get with one of the potential  Slayers... <_<

Man... That's all I got to say.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:40 .

[CaptREDKangaroo]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I don't know how several LIs or every LI being bisexual is somehow unrealistic. I'm pretty sure I can't count the number of bisexuals in the world on one hand.

Or two, for that matter.

It's unLIKELY that they'd be on the same ship together, but it's not in the realm of impossible.

That was my point, I'm not saying being bisexual or a number of ppl is unrealistic but every LI avalible on one ship... at the end of the day it's about the character for me, if it's not just suddenly "bisexual" and it's meaningful than I'm all for it, but not merely for the sake of having the option to be bi to romance. If it's written within the character and written well, good. There's nothing wrong with being BI or Straight or Gay there isn't enough options there - but it has to work for the character not just for the sake of romance options, all I mean.

[shepskisaac]

Sshodan wrote...
You do remember that Kaidan is not written by you? And that you do not have a monopoly to interpret his behavior?

Of course, But my interpretation does have a basis, everything I'm talking about I base on in-game dialogues.

Sshodan wrote...
As for what I explained, no it's not "just my PVO" it is an overview of what "bisexual" really means - saying that being bi means not having sexual orientation, or that it does not matter in terms of character personalization in romantic relationship is an offensive statement, much like saying that being gay is a choice, or that gay man would jump any man given a chance. The fact that people do not seams to understand it does not make it right.
If Bioware choses to make a character bi I'd prefer them to do it in a whay that makes sense.

You don't understand me, and frankly, at no point I think I offended bisexual people. What I'm saying is that telling someone about bisexuality is a concious decision, based on how one individual views his bisexuality and how he views bisexuality in general and many many many other aspects of the relationship. Your previous big post was amazing but it doesn't apply to making a decision to tell your partner about bisexuality immediately. However true your overview of bisexuality is, it doesn't include the aspect one person may don't really think they live in any lie and think it will be appropirate to tell this aspect of his/her nature to their partners only after their relationship is already well established, when they really trust each other. They may think "I didn't do anything wrong, I didn't cheated so why should I tell about my bisexuality on the first date?". If we actually think about FemShep and Kaidan's relationship in ME1, it wasn't that big or deep yet. It was really only beginning.

And if we reverse the coin, when does Kaidan (or anyone else) learn about your Shep's bisexuality if you role-played a bisexual Shepard? The only way to do that was to well, start 'cheating' on him with Liara. If character personalization was cheapened it already happened because FemShep didn't tell Kaidan about her bisexuality either (unless 'cheated' with Liara).

Modifié par IsaacShep, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:50 .