887 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

Eromenos wrote...
Indeed, BioWare does owe us.

Recon is right. Bioware does not owe us anything. No one, and I mean no one, is entitled to content.

Bioware was not intentionally trying to oppress or discriminate against anyone. They do what they must in regard to time constraints and development resources. To claim you have more right to those resources than anyone else is just ignorant. You should consider us lucky that Bioware even considered us in the development of ME1 and 2 at any point in time as most companies aren't even that considerate.

Whether you like it or not, the majority is always catered to first. Sure, we get the short end of the stick sometimes because of it, but that's life. Just be grateful we're getting what we are now.

Yes, Bioware said some stupid and hypocritical things over the years, but can't you forgive them for that? They're doing more than makng amends with words, they're giving us what we wanted all along.

Don't go around pointing fingers and blame when the simple fact is that the world just does not revolve around your life and whims.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:18 .

[shepskisaac]

Recon64bit wrote...

Just romance the Asari, jeez.

When we also have Asari that look like this:

Then we'll talk about just romancing Asari

[FoxHound109]

That picture is AMAZING!

[Blacklash93]

And Recon, I'm really getting sick of your attitude as well.

By your logic, gay people don't deserve anything because they're a minority. They should all just sit back and let the world not give a damn about what they want. They're nothings who "deserve" nothing because the majority is always more worthwhile.

But guess what? There are these things called SHARING and GENEROSITY. Altruism. Giving a little bit to someone who usually doesn't get things as often as you. And being happy for them when they get what they work for. Not raving over every little scrap of food that could have been yours.

You can harp on Bioware for "pandering" and "caving in", but at the end of the day it was their choice whether to include it or not. Their goals their properties are always to please the fans and it just so happened they thought it would be a good idea to give something to someone other than you. If that's a crime, then I guess many forms of generosity and inclusiveness are. The gay community here has worked for 4 years to make their voice heard and all you can say is "No... that should have been mine and you're all undeserving".

It's not even that much. All it does is add a little on the straight romances you're already getting.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:44 .

[jlb524]

BW includes s/s content b/c people want it and use it...that's it. Same as any other romance content.

People who use the romances are in the minority to begin with anyway, so all romance content is 'pandering to a minority'.

Not sure why that's a difficult concept to grasp.

Recon64bit wrote...

Just romance the Asari, jeez.

Hopefully the only available ME3 romances will be with asari then...cut all the human, turian, quarian crap...yeah...

Modifié par jlb524, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:45 .

[Ghost Lightning]

I think it's a bad idea to make all squad mates bi because the simple fact that in real life not everyone is bisexual. Like Garrus, I don't have any reason to think he'd ever be gay. But there needs to be male/male in ME3, there was fem/fem in ME1 and ME2 and to not give guys the same option is ridiculous. Kaiden can be bi, I can see that, as well as James Vega. For ladies there's Liara and possibly Ashly.

[jlb524]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

I think it's a bad idea to make all squad mates bi because the simple fact that in real life not everyone is bisexual. 

Just like not everyone in real life will go for a Renengade douche Shepard...oh but wait, they do in Mass Effect...jeez...

[Ryzaki]

I love how people use Garrus as a pinnacle of straightness nevermind that he might be the best example of a bi romance option without breaking character. Garrus does not dig humans. Garrus does not dig human females. He romances Shepard because it's Shepard. Not because she's female and he has some odd gender roles engrained in his head that only femshep somehow fit (and let's ignore the fact that femshep and male shepard act IDENTICAL so any so called female role FemShep fits would apply for male Shepard as well). Garrus is not sexually attracted to FemShep's "funny bumps."  doesn't want to do the horizontal tango until Shepard hits on first. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:51 .

[Ghost Lightning]

jlb524 wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...

I think it's a bad idea to make all squad mates bi because the simple fact that in real life not everyone is bisexual. 

Just like not everyone in real life will go for a Renengade douche Shepard...oh but wait, they do in Mass Effect...jeez...

I don't mean it in a negative way. I just mean that shepard is good, but he/she can't turn everyone. Like Jack, I liked that she says she's been there but isn't interested. Not everyone's gay, and not everyone is straight. I personaly think JV should be only a male romance (as a matter of fact that's what I thought he was at first) but that's just me.

[Blacklash93]

jlb524 wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...

I think it's a bad idea to make all squad mates bi because the simple fact that in real life not everyone is bisexual. 

Just like not everyone in real life will go for a Renengade douche Shepard...oh but wait, they do in Mass Effect...jeez...

There's a difference. One deals with just believability, while the other deals with that and hard facts and statistics.

It's a valid concern and I wish more could see that.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:51 .

[FoxHound109]

I think the "everyone is bisexual" question depends on a few key things:

1. If everyone is CANNON bisexual then it breaks the suspension of disbelief.

2. If everyone can be bisexual but it depends on your playthrough, then it isn't an issue. For example, if I never romance Garrus as mShep then in my playthrough he's not gay or bisexual.

[Ryzaki]

Blacklash93 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...

I think it's a bad idea to make all squad mates bi because the simple fact that in real life not everyone is bisexual. 

Just like not everyone in real life will go for a Renengade douche Shepard...oh but wait, they do in Mass Effect...jeez...

There's a difference. One deals with just believability, while the other deals with that and hard facts and statistics.

It's a valid concern and I wish more could see that.

Really though if we're using the RL excuse I want more LIs to reject paragon/renegade Shepard. It shouldn't just be gender. It should be how Shepard looks and the decisions he/she makes as well. (and not just limited to not getting their loyalty.) Tali should not be trying to dry hump my Renedouche Shepard just because he helped her out. Miranda shouldn't be attracted to my uber paragon SUNSHINE AND ROSIES AND BUNNIES character, just like Jack shouldn't open up to my "Oh wow Jack. That's pathetic." renegade character. My renegade's racists ass shouldn't be so highly regarded by the alien crewmates. 

If we want to get started about unrealism in ME there will be a long list. Let's go with the fact that it's equally unbelieveabe for everyone on the ship (save the Asari and Kelly) to be straight even when they're up for outter species sex. Yes somehow Garrus and Tali don't mind having sex with a human as long as that human is the opposite gender. Let's ignore the fact that gender roles are pretty non-existant due to the fact that Male and Female Shepard are identical save a few lines. Nope. Shepard's gender is somehow of utmpost importance to them even though they don't treat Shepard any different save for romance dialogue. Where's Ash and Kaidan treated Female/Male Shepard pretty damn differently. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:01 .

[jlb524]

Ghost Lightning wrote...
I don't mean it in a negative way. I just mean that shepard is good, but he/she can't turn everyone.

Hetero Shepard seems to turn everyone...even quarians/turians....

Or Paragons that shouldn't go against their moral leanings when looking for a partner....

Ghost Lightning wrote...
Like Jack, I liked that she says she's been there but isn't interested.

When did that happen?

Ghost Lightning wrote...
Not everyone's gay, and not everyone is straight. I personaly think JV should be only a male romance (as a matter of fact that's what I thought he was at first) but that's just me.

But why limit JV to just men when female Shepards will also want to play through that romance? 

Not everyone is bisexual, just as not every hot alien on ship is into humans..oh wait...

[shepskisaac]

Not everyone bi is a valid argument simply because that's the reality. ME may be science-fiction, but the human society is supposed to be based on our own real one.

[jlb524]

Blacklash93 wrote...

There's a difference. One deals with just believability, while the other deals with that and hard facts and statistics.

It's a valid concern and I wish more could see that.

Because...statistically, most people can fall for someone who goes against their moral fibre?

[Eromenos]

Kyrene wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

A cop-out from their side is to cut his gay romance in the first place. But cutting it doesn't make him heterosexual. Unless we assume Tali was asexual in ME1. Horizon makes it rather clear what his feelings are.

Don't you mean cutting his bi romance in the first place? And it wasn't a cop-out as much as lack of time/resources as you're oft to quote. Cutting it does make him heterosexual, or do you include cut content as part of your gaming experience? Just because Tali had the good taste not to jump my Shepards doesn't make her asexual, so stop that straw man arguing. Oh yes, Horizon, where Kaidan says the same thing to a friend manShep as he does to a LI or friend femShep. Sorry, we have dismissed that claim.

I respect your "right" to have S/S romances in ME3, but not at the expense of logic. Like it or not, you're a vocal, but very small minority of BioWare's player base. And economics is not a democracy.

Obviously IssacShep was referring to the "gay half" of Kaidan's bisexuality. And yes, it was a cop-out both times when they excluded that from ME1 and ME2. Especially given the time/resources argument. Yes, I have no doubt that factored into it. But that is no excuse for ME devs' twice insistence that M/M was unworthy of even committing to, whereas they did commit to themselves to dudebro F/F...including that entire Kelly creature, useless with or without EDI.

Seriously. Hudson and team devoted themselves to Kelly the Human Screensaver while maintaining that M/M had no place in ME, at least till now. Those earlier choices were cop-outs. We've yet to see what we'll end up with in ME3, but I'm not holding my breath.

Do not play dumb toward IsaacShep's argument about Tali. It was his way of describing Kaidan's likely development in ME3 parallels Tali's changes between ME1 and ME2. My thinking is the same as his in this matter: Tali liking male Shepard in ME2 highlighted at least one aspect of her sexuality and it did so without retconning anything from ME1. Kaidan liking male Shepard in ME3 will highlight a second aspect of his sexuality and it will do so without retconning anything from ME2 or ME1.

Vocal, small, minority, etc. Always this? Vocal, sure, and even before ME came into being. Small minority...keep dreaming. ME3 is caving because it has to. Try to keep up.

As for the economics...? Since when were economics ever static and secure? There might be semblance of stability, but no more. BioWare's economic welfare is also not our problem.

Modifié par Eromenos, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:59 .

[jlb524]

IsaacShep wrote...

Not everyone bi is a valid argument simply because that's the reality. ME may be science-fiction, but the human society is supposed to be based on our own real one.

Except....not everyone would be bisexual..just the LIs.

Also, making every LI bi is no more 'gamey' and unrealistic than adding in a token single bisexual romance for each gender.  Both the former and latter are very meta-gamey and are added in to give 'options'.  The former gives many options while the latter...none...you either like your 'bisexual LI' or you don't.

Realistically, (if we want to go by human society) there should be the occasional gay only LI...but they won't do that...why?  Why won't they?  It's due to 'gameplay' reasons...they don't want to put the effort into making a romance and then deny it to the m/f crowd because they feel it's a waste of resources...why make content for a minority (those who play romances) and then deny it to a large part of that minority?  Why add in romances and then deny it to a significant minority of gamers as well?

Modifié par jlb524, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:09 .

[Ghost Lightning]

jlb524 wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...
I don't mean it in a negative way. I just mean that shepard is good, but he/she can't turn everyone.

Hetero Shepard seems to turn everyone...even quarians/turians....

Or Paragons that shouldn't go against their moral leanings when looking for a partner....

Ghost Lightning wrote...
Like Jack, I liked that she says she's been there but isn't interested.

When did that happen?

Ghost Lightning wrote...
Not everyone's gay, and not everyone is straight. I personaly think JV should be only a male romance (as a matter of fact that's what I thought he was at first) but that's just me.

But why limit JV to just men when female Shepards will also want to play through that romance? 

Not everyone is bisexual, just as not every hot alien on ship is into humans..oh wait...

You can ask Jack about her sexuality with Femshep but she isn't interested in anything. In one convo she talks about how she once "found her way into bed" with a male and female couple.

That makes sense to make JV bi, but then again there are male only and female only romances, so why not make a gay only romance? By having characters with set sexuallities it solidifies the character. If we know that JV is gay then that's his character. If everyone on the ship is bisexual it just seems too hard to believe IMHO

Modifié par Ghost Lightning, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:00 .

[shepskisaac]

jreezy wrote...

The only reason why s/s for Ashley, Kaidan, and definitely Garrus would be kind of stupid is because the story already seems to allude to them being straight in a couple of instances. You can't really gauge the sexual preferences of other characters in the game but those three specifically seem to be straight.

Two of them had cut s/s romances (Ashley and Kaidan) and practically declare love to Shepard on Horizon and Garrus blatantly admits he ain't into any human at all and is sleeping with FemShep out of respect and that she likes her as a friend. So really not the best choices.

[jlb524]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

You can ask Jack about her sexuality with Femshep but she isn't interested in anything. In one convo she talks about how she once "found her way into bed" with a male and female couple.

I never made advances on Jack and she never declined anything.  It's also funny that she remembers the female by name and the dude is just 'her boyfriend'.

Ghost Lightning wrote...
That makes sense to make JV bi, but then again there are male only and female only romances, so why not make a gay only romance? By having characters with set sexuallities it solidifies the character. If we know that JV is gay then that's his character. If everyone on the ship is bisexual it just seems too hard to believe IMHO

They won't make a gay only romance due to game resource considerations.  As I've said, romances are only experienced by a minority of gamers....they are not going to put the time into developing them and then turn around and limit them to a significant portion of people that do play romances. 

People are stuck on the 'realism' argument when these romances are already highly unrealistic to begin with and only exist as a further avenue to add a layer of individuality to your Shepard character.  Limiting this content based only on gender just seems stupid and petty to me.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:06 .

[Eternal Dust]

jreezy wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

jreezy wrote...

The only reason why s/s for Ashley, Kaidan, and definitely Garrus would be kind of stupid is because the story already seems to allude to them being straight in a couple of instances. You can't really gauge the sexual preferences of other characters in the game but those three specifically seem to be straight.

Two of them had cut s/s romances (Ashley and Kaidan) and practically declare love to Shepard on Horizon and Garrus blatantly admits he ain't into any human at all and is sleeping with FemShep out of respect and that she likes her as a friend. So really not the best choices.

Since that is cut content then that means their straight right?

No.

[Ghost Lightning]

jlb524 wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...

You can ask Jack about her sexuality with Femshep but she isn't interested in anything. In one convo she talks about how she once "found her way into bed" with a male and female couple.

I never made advances on Jack and she never declined anything.  It's also funny that she remembers the female by name and the dude is just 'her boyfriend'.

Ghost Lightning wrote...
That makes sense to make JV bi, but then again there are male only and female only romances, so why not make a gay only romance? By having characters with set sexuallities it solidifies the character. If we know that JV is gay then that's his character. If everyone on the ship is bisexual it just seems too hard to believe IMHO

They won't make a gay only romance due to game resource considerations.  As I've said, romances are only experienced by a minority of gamers....they are not going to put the time into developing them and then turn around and limit them to a significant portion of people that do play romances. 

People are stuck on the 'realism' argument when these romances are already highly unrealistic to begin with and only exist as a further avenue to add a layer of individuality to your Shepard character.  Limiting this content based only on gender just seems stupid and petty to me.

Argh.