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[pablodurando]

Volus Warlord wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

I want to convert Ashley into an atheist. That is my ultimate goal for ME3.

And I want you to convert to Scientology!

But seriously I find it hard to believe that there won't be some conflict regarding religion.  Some key characters have vastly different religions, I would be sad if they didn't explore this somewhat with the sillhoute of death looming so close.

[The Twilight God]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
If you are pro-gay you aren't a Christian. Both the old and new testament condemn it.

What are you talking about? The only person who condemns it in the NT is "Saint" Paul, the same one who's a fan of slavery. Ain't nobody gonna treat seriosuly what a slavery fan says. And the OT is the same one that says wearing clothes made of mixed fabrics is an abomination. So sorry, you can't be a Christian and tell other people if they're good Christians or not if you wear clothes made of mixed fabrics.

Christians have to adhere to the new and old testament according to Jesus. Slavery is an acceptable practice according to the Bible. Mixed fabrics are bad according to the Bible. It even forbids Christmas trees. You don't like it. Fine. That's why your not a Christian. I never understood the need for a people to want to be associated with a religion whose holy book clearly states they are abominations and should be killed. You'd think a practicing homosexual would just say, "screw christianity". It boogles the mind.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:03 .

[shepskisaac]

NICKjnp wrote...

And you just want her to be gay so you ignore everything that implies she is christian/muslim/jewish.  I gave you reason....you chose to ignore them.

You gave nothing but your personal guess she's Judeo-Christian. Based on what she says in ME1, you can conclude she believe in monoseistic God with afterlife dimension nothing more. Do you know how many religion this fits? Plus I don't want her to be gay. I only say there's nothing that's said in ME1 that makes it impossible that she's bisexual.

The Twilight God wrote...
Slavery is an acceptable practice according to the Bible.

Wow, didn't think people who are pro slavery still exist. I'm done, this is just... wow.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:07 .

[Ryzaki]

I tire of knowing more about Christianity than the people who claim to follow it. 

"You shall keep My statues. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garmet of mixed linen and woll com upon you." (Leviticus 19:19) 

Huh. Guess the old laws only matter when it comes to teh gays eh? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:06 .

[NICKjnp]

lietk12 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Her reference to God (in the singular form) as well as her reference to an after life when she speaks of her father puts her in the range of being either Christian or Muslim.

For all you know, she could have been Baha'i.
The point I was obliquely trying to make is that, unless you are a writer for the game, you do not have access to the Absolute Truth of whether or not new religions have arisen or certain groups have branched out or changed their policies by the time of the events of ME1--religions/sects which Ashley could possibly belong to.

That is a slippery slope that Bioware should not go down.  Hence my reference to the slap in the face.  A majority of christians believe homosexuality is wrong.  I would say close to 100% of Jews and Muslims believe it is wrong.  Personaly I don't take sides on the issue.  I'm not gay so it doesn't affect me.  My father was gay so I know for a fact that being gay isn't a "choice".  It is something someone is born as.  My opinion is one of an extreme minority in the Christian church though.  And it is almost non-existant in Judaism and Islam.

How do you think Christian/Muslim/Jewish gamers will react if Bioware decided to go this route with Ashley?  My guess is that many of them will be insulted because Bioware decided they got to decide what Christians/Muslims/Jews will believe in the future.

[shepskisaac]

NICKjnp wrote...
How do you think Christian/Muslim/Jewish gamers will react if Bioware decided to go this route with Ashley?  My guess is that many of them will be insulted because Bioware decided they got to decide what Christians/Muslims/Jews will believe in the future.

Why are you even bringing this up over and over again? Where is it stated Ashely is Christian/Muslim/Jew? No, the fact she believes in monotesistic God and afterlife is not a confirmation she's Judeo-Christin. Seriously. Until it's stated what her religion is, this is not even an argument relevant to the debate.

[pablodurando]

Bad post, sorry. Ignore this.

Modifié par pablodurando, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:15 .

[NICKjnp]

Ryzaki wrote...

I tire of knowing more about Christianity than the people who claim to follow it. 

"You shall keep My statues. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garmet of mixed linen and woll com upon you." (Leviticus 19:19) 

Huh. Guess the old laws only matter when it comes to teh gays eh? 

According to Christian teaching the old laws were done away with at the Cross.  Is that what you were wondering?  Leviticus, part of the pentateuch and the book specifically regarding the the practice of the levites (the members of the OT priest class), is part of those things that were done away with.

According to Jewish teachings those are still part of there lives.  Though many of their teachings are not put into pratice as of around 200 BC.  I'm afraid I don't have the specific details as to why.  All I know is that it was officialy changed by the pharisees at that point.

[Ryzaki]

*removed

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:11 .

[Jimmy Fury]

in before lock!

(seriously why is this a new thread and not on the awkwardly silent s/s thread? is it that hard to spot all the little gender symbols?)

[lietk12]

NICKjnp wrote...
And it is almost non-existant in Judaism and Islam.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider reconstructionist and reform judaism to be part of Judaism?

NICKjnp wrote...
My guess is that many of them will be insulted because Bioware decided
they got to decide what Christians/Muslims/Jews will believe in the
future.

Except the part where Bioware doesn't actually say "X is religion Y's genetic doctrinal destiny", just that there could be a religion based on certain beliefs of certain religions. Or are you saying that the existence of Baha'i is a slap in the face of every Abrahamic religion?

[Ryzaki]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

in before lock!

(seriously why is this a new thread and not on the awkwardly silent s/s thread? is it that hard to spot all the little gender symbols?)

Who knows. I guess Same Sex Romance isn't clear enough apparently. 

[Eromenos]

NICKjnp wrote...

I'm glad I can be attacked for pointing out something that at it's core would effect a christian/muslim/jew who was bisexual. Enough so to make them focus their attraction on memberrs of the opposite sex. And as much as people demand that Christianity/Judaism/Islam will automatically adapt so that Ashley can become attracted to femshep...that is an insult to those who practice those faiths. If Ashley was part a practicing member of a gay sect within the Christian church then sure (but those are very small groups). Furthermore if she was Jewish or Muslim then it wouldn't happen. Period.

Let's not forget that, generally speaking, those faiths tend to insult queer people more often than not and this they do at the institutional level. The religions cast the first stones, not us. No gay Jewish or Muslim people? And, so very few gay Christians too? Your wishful thinking is rather patronizing. I'm not a religious person myself, but I don't need special training to know there are oddball queers among my own kind who are religious of every stripe.

As much as I don't want old characters to become s/s options because I think it should have happened before when the original romance is available...I would accept it if Bioware ultimately decided to go that route. However if it is Ashley then it isn't just a simple changing a character to being bisexual. They have taken it a step further that gives a slap to the face of fans of the character who were fans because of the spiritual connection they had with her.

I have a practicing Mormon friend(yes, believe it or not) and he mused aloud that, among my other friends who happen to be Christians, "they must not be very good Christians" because unlike him they don't try to convert me away from gayness. Vice-versa, they would bristle and turn his comment back onto him if they knew. So let's not whitewash the fact that even religious straight people can be diverse instead of 1-note.

More harm is being committed if Kaidan and Ashley are confined into "str8s-only" just so provincial people don't have to clutch their pearls regarding a potential facet(sexuality) of their lovers that's at least as important as faith. I, of course, argue sexuality is even more important than faith if/when these things come into conflict.

What slap in the face are we talking about? Do their relationships with Ashley mandate a "no-queerness" policy? If so, then those people are victims but they're not the kind we should pity or coddle. It's certainly sad if they can't continue to love a queer gf or bf just because of religious teachings that summarily call their lover a bad person. But such is the religious person's only claim to victimhood. It's the bisexual lover being dumped over scriptures/sermons who is the real victim of insult.

I'm affraid it is a little more complicated than...she can be christian/muslim/jewish and be into femshep. There are other factors to consider than just making another s/s option for femshep.

As for my authority on the issue.  This is where I got my BA and the department I graduated from.  It is an acredited institution...one of the top liberal arts colleges on the west coast.  I am currently working on a nursing degree (like my father...who was gay...before he died) with a goal of becoming a nurse practitioner.  I am a liberal Christian.  I hate the Christian coalition.  I support gay marriage.  I believe in a strong seperation of church and state.  I believe that marriage is a institution that is practiced by many religions and tha all religions have the right to be recognized in our secular government.

Some of these things on your list are a welcome sight, but they clearly don't add up to enough when you rely on them as disclaimers to back your hypocritical aversion against bisexuality in other people. I know little about the philosophies behind most organized religions, but I do know very well the consequences of their good intentions.

Modifié par Eromenos, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:49 .

[NICKjnp]

Ryzaki wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I tire of knowing more about Christianity than the people who claim to follow it. 

"You shall keep My statues. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garmet of mixed linen and woll com upon you." (Leviticus 19:19) 

Huh. Guess the old laws only matter when it comes to teh gays eh? 

According to Christian teaching the old laws were done away with at the Cross.  Is that what you were wondering?  Leviticus, part of the pentateuch and the book specifically regarding the the practice of the levites (the members of the OT priest class), is part of those things that were done away with.

According to Jewish teachings those are still part of there lives.  Though many of their teachings are not put into pratice as of around 200 BC.  I'm afraid I don't have the specific details as to why.  All I know is that it was officialy changed by the pharisees at that point.

And let me guess the "no gayness" is magically not a part of the old testment now? Oh wait...it's in Leviticus too!  OMG! IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Thanks for PWNING your own arguement. 

It is part of the New Testament.  To try to explain this would take about 4 months of a college course.  However...I'm leaving because the conversation is getting too heated.  Thanks for insulting me though.  It really puts things in perspective.

[shepskisaac]

NICKjnp wrote...
It is part of the New Testament.  To try to explain this would take about 4 months of a college course.  However...I'm leaving because the conversation is getting too heated.  Thanks for insulting me though.  It really puts things in perspective.

Yes, it's part of the New Testament. Saint Paul's part, the same guy who's pro-slavery. Are we gonna take his advices on what wrong and what's good?

[Emzamination]

As long as I can Seduce and break Ashley or miranda I'm straight.

[Ryzaki]

*removed

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 06:11 .

[Neesee]

I found a website that includes some different interpretations of the passages about homosexuality. Just FYI if ya like.

[NICKjnp]

IsaacShep wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...
It is part of the New Testament.  To try to explain this would take about 4 months of a college course.  However...I'm leaving because the conversation is getting too heated.  Thanks for insulting me though.  It really puts things in perspective.

Yes, it's part of the New Testament. Saint Paul's part, the same guy who's pro-slavery. Are we gonna take his advices on what wrong and what's good?

Good try but no.  You failed to look at the reason why he said slavery shouldn't be fought against.  Christianity was a new religion.  It was already being attacked by other religions of the time.  The Roman empire considered it secular because it was monotheistic and not polytheistic.  Paul was trying to tell people to not rock the boat.  There was already problems between Christianity and the state.  Having Christian slaves rise up against those who owned them would have only caused an uproar and attack on the church as a whole.  It is why he wanted slave owners to treat their slaves as equals and slaves not to rise up against their owners (so they could be witnesses).  He also stated that if they could get their freedom then they should.

But again this would take more than a quick paragraph to explain in detail...and I'm tired of arguing.

[Abispa]

NICKjnp wrote...

I'm glad I can be attacked for pointing out something that at it's core would effect a christian/muslim/jew who was bisexual. Enough so to make them focus their attraction on memberrs of the opposite sex. And as much as people demand that Christianity/Judaism/Islam will automatically adapt so that Ashley can become attracted to femshep...that is an insult to those who practice those faiths. If Ashley was part a practicing member of a gay sect within the Christian church then sure (but those are very small groups). Furthermore if she was Jewish or Muslim then it wouldn't happen. Period.

As much as I don't want old characters to become s/s options because I think it should have happened before when the original romance is available...I would accept it if Bioware ultimately decided to go that route. However if it is Ashley then it isn't just a simple changing a character to being bisexual. They have taken it a step further that gives a slap to the face of fans of the character who were fans because of the spiritual connection they had with her.

I'm affraid it is a little more complicated than...she can be christian/muslim/jewish and be into femshep. There are other factors to consider than just making another s/s option for femshep.

As for my authority on the issue.  This is where I got my BA and the department I graduated from.  It is an acredited institution...one of the top liberal arts colleges on the west coast.  I am currently working on a nursing degree (like my father...who was gay...before he died) with a goal of becoming a nurse practitioner.  I am a liberal Christian.  I hate the Christian coalition.  I support gay marriage.  I believe in a strong seperation of church and state.  I believe that marriage is a institution that is practiced by many religions and tha all religions have the right to be recognized in our secular government.

In a way, you've made the s/s crowd's argument for them. There has been nothing to say that Ashley ISN'T a "traditionalist" when it comes to religion (I'm holding out for her being a liberal Jew, but that's me). Just as there has been nothing to preclude her from being a "liberal" believer who may be bisexual, or at least heteroflexible. I never thought of her as a "traditionalist" myself since she admits in background conversations that she likes to party and she is willing to have premarital sex with Shepard even without him "committing" to her.

I doubt that she would ever be held up as a the role model by traditionalists, even if she were "straight."

And for your information, while I am an atheist, my brother converted to Judaism from Catholicism and is attending a synagoge that will soon be lead by an openly lesbian rabbi.

If someone is incapable of accepting Ashley for her bravery, dedication and faith just because she's a woman, had sex out of wedlock and MIGHT actually be open to s/s relationships, then that is a sad perspective that Bioware shouldn't have to cater to. If Bioware chooses to reveal that she is open to s/s relationships, they should not take the "Keep a mask on Kato" approach the producers of the TV show "The Green Hornet" took to respect Southern sensibilities.

I'm not saying that the s/s reveal can't be handled badly. If Ashley and Kaidan suddenly turn into Isabela and Zevran, I guarantee you no one will be yelling louder than me.

[Inquisitor Recon]

How about .

[NICKjnp]

Ryzaki wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...
It is part of the New Testament.  To try to explain this would take about 4 months of a college course.  However...I'm leaving because the conversation is getting too heated.  Thanks for insulting me though.  It really puts things in perspective.

Oh but I was just gonna ask you where in the new testament did it say the old testament laws no longer applied! Because frankly I've never read it and am inclined to feel it's one of those "facts" pulled out of someone's rear end.  It would not take 4 months of a college course to point me to a passage honey bun.  

Edit: I"m sorry if you think I'm being rude. But frankly I'm sick of the "oh this is wrong wrog wrong but this thing that is alos wrong doesn't apply to me!" I see. 

Also...didn't Christ himself say that he didn't override the old testament? Or am I imaging things? 

Hebrews 9:15