887 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Just to inform the discussion... mauro2222 was correct on the subject of sexual orientation when stating "Well actually is a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences." That is indeed the current scientific consensus. Or rather, the current lack of consensus.

The American Academy of Pediatrics
The New England Journal of Medicine

Modifié par General User, 23 juillet 2011 - 09:31 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Is anyone still on topic?

[Arik7]

Yes. Kaidan has said that losing (male) Shepard was like losing a limb. It would not be too far-fetched for him to express romantic feelings for M-Shep just like Tali did in ME2.

[Sepewrath]

That's not much of a jumping off point, I have friends, that of course it would suck if they died, like losing a limb. But I'm not going to have sex with them lol.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Arik7 wrote...
Nobody here says BioWare owes them anything.  Where did you get this from?  This is a fan forum, full of REQUESTS from fans.  The options to play a Female Shepard or a non-Caucasian Shepard could be dismissed as "political correctness".   The fact is every business should try to expand their client base and act on
feedback from their existing clients, not just focus on the majority demographic.  The majority which, according to you, is entitled to all of BioWare's attention, while the rest of the fans should be ignored.  Talk about entitlement.  

You've barely touched on my points at all.  Sounds like you are running out of steam.

Have you read the posts of Eronomos or whatever his name is? He fully believes he is entitled to this nonsense, as I'm sure some others do. Requests very quickly become demands when you think you deserve something. Why are you trying to equate what one sleeps with to one's gender or race? If so and so wants to play as gay Shepard, he doesn't need to sleep with anybody to prove it. Now, businesses should try to expand their client base to serious clients, such as those playing other shooters and RPGs. Not guys in the forum demanding a wedding for Tali or the ability to sleep with other men. I'm entitled? No, I'm not the one expecting anything to be added just for me.

Barely touched on your points? What points?

FitScotGaymer wrote...
I see you haven't met ReconTeam yet Arik7. He has some sort of vendetta against Gay Content in HIS Mass Effect. But it totally isnt homophobia. Oh no. Never that.

Basically the guy is a bit of a troll as near as I can tell. Troll's never try to have sensible debates or discussions.

Haven't seen you much around here so I take it you keep to your S/S group. But go ahead and scream about homophobia as much as you like. Yep. Everybody who doesn't agree with you are evil, white, straight, male, bigoted, homophobic, trolls. You've finally uncovered the great conspiracy against "teh gheys".

Modifié par ReconTeam, 23 juillet 2011 - 10:52 .

[Arik7]

Sepewrath wrote...

That's not much of a jumping off point, I have friends, that of course it would suck if they died, like losing a limb. But I'm not going to have sex with them lol.

I am NOT saying Kaidan must be bisexual because of those words, but rather, he could be believably written to develop romantic feelings for Shepard, just lke Tali and Garrus have.  

[Siansonea]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Is anyone still on topic?

What IS the topic? I have no idea at this point.

[RubyRed1975]

Well arguing about whether Kaidan/Ash is Bi is really a moot point. We won't know anything until the Devs do a reveal of who is going to be s/s options. But I don't see anything wrong with asking for certain characters to fill that role. But, since this is a role playing game isn't it really all abot how we as individuals choose to RP characters in the game?

[Sepewrath]

Arik7 wrote...
I am NOT saying Kaidan must be bisexual because of those words, but rather, he could be believably written to develop romantic feelings for Shepard, just lke Tali and Garrus have.  

Not really, the difference with Tali and Garrus is they showed no interest in anyone, Kaidan showed that when he wanted Shep(a fem Shep) he would go after them, but for a male Shep he wouldn't? Are we to believe that he was avoiding the whole don't ask, don't tell situation? If they had say made Tali and Garrus bisexual in ME2, it would be more believable because like I said, they were a blank slate. They could have been hiding having the hots for either Shepard sex, but these two, it wouldn't make a lot of sense, it would be a complete 180 for them.

[Arik7]

Sepewrath wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
I am NOT saying Kaidan must be bisexual because of those words, but rather, he could be believably written to develop romantic feelings for Shepard, just lke Tali and Garrus have.  

Not really, the difference with Tali and Garrus is they showed no interest in anyone, Kaidan showed that when he wanted Shep(a fem Shep) he would go after them, but for a male Shep he wouldn't? Are we to believe that he was avoiding the whole don't ask, don't tell situation? If they had say made Tali and Garrus bisexual in ME2, it would be more believable because like I said, they were a blank slate. They could have been hiding having the hots for either Shepard sex, but these two, it wouldn't make a lot of sense, it would be a complete 180 for them.

Anders showed interest in women in Awakening, yet he was revealed to be bi-sexual in DA2.   Most bisexual guys I know tend to play up their attraction towards women in public and keep their same-sex attraction to themselves.  Nothing too far fetched.

Modifié par Arik7, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[FoxHound109]

Sepewrath wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
I am NOT saying Kaidan must be bisexual because of those words, but rather, he could be believably written to develop romantic feelings for Shepard, just lke Tali and Garrus have.  

Not really, the difference with Tali and Garrus is they showed no interest in anyone, Kaidan showed that when he wanted Shep(a fem Shep) he would go after them, but for a male Shep he wouldn't? Are we to believe that he was avoiding the whole don't ask, don't tell situation? If they had say made Tali and Garrus bisexual in ME2, it would be more believable because like I said, they were a blank slate. They could have been hiding having the hots for either Shepard sex, but these two, it wouldn't make a lot of sense, it would be a complete 180 for them.

Sort of. Your point is generally good, but there's a few problems with that theory. The first is that it isn't just about what your Shepard says but the reactions the characters have to him. For example, Kaidan could have had feelings or an attraction for male Shepard, but considering most men are neither homosexual nor bisexual he might have not wanted to test those waters. The same isn't true of female Shepard because most women (like most men) are heterosexual. 

[Sepewrath]

Apparently you missed all the complaining about that. And if Kaidan was so shamed about his sexuality in ME1, why would he suddenly not care. The mission to chase down Saren, especially after you find out about Sovereign had no less chance of everyone not making back then, the fight in ME2 or the fight in ME3. He fights on the front line and obviously, he can die since he is dead in many games. So why would he suddenly no longer be afraid of his sexuality being discovered, especially if you win and Shepard becomes the biggest celebrity in the galaxy.

That was at Arik, but it applies to the above poster as well. If they were so afraid of a little man on man love, why are they not anymore?

Modifié par Sepewrath, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:49 .

[Arik7]

ReconTeam wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
Nobody here says BioWare owes them anything.  Where did you get this from?  This is a fan forum, full of REQUESTS from fans.  The options to play a Female Shepard or a non-Caucasian Shepard could be dismissed as "political correctness".   The fact is every business should try to expand their client base and act on
feedback from their existing clients, not just focus on the majority demographic.  The majority which, according to you, is entitled to all of BioWare's attention, while the rest of the fans should be ignored.  Talk about entitlement.  

You've barely touched on my points at all.  Sounds like you are running out of steam.

Have you read the posts of Eronomos or whatever his name is? He fully believes he is entitled to this nonsense, as I'm sure some others do. Requests very quickly become demands when you think you deserve something. Why are you trying to equate what one sleeps with to one's gender or race? If so and so wants to play as gay Shepard, he doesn't need to sleep with anybody to prove it. Now, businesses should try to expand their client base to serious clients, such as those playing other shooters and RPGs. Not guys in the forum demanding a wedding for Tali or the ability to sleep with other men. I'm entitled? No, I'm not the one expecting anything to be added just for me.

Barely touched on your points? What points?

FitScotGaymer wrote...
I see you haven't met ReconTeam yet Arik7. He has some sort of vendetta against Gay Content in HIS Mass Effect. But it totally isnt homophobia. Oh no. Never that.

Basically the guy is a bit of a troll as near as I can tell. Troll's never try to have sensible debates or discussions.

Haven't seen you much around here so I take it you keep to your S/S group. But go ahead and scream about homophobia as much as you like. Yep. Everybody who doesn't agree with you are evil, white, straight, male, bigoted, homophobic, trolls. You've finally uncovered the great conspiracy against "teh gheys".

You sound like a broken record with your "entitlement" straw man argument. This forum is filled with fans who want changes and specific content.  BioWare is asking for feedback from fans, just like any good business should. 

You, on the other hand, sound arrogant and entitled to 100% of BioWare's resources to be used on straight white men.

"what one sleeps with"?   - you make it sound like a choice of a TV show to watch or which fast food restaurant to visit.  Sexuality is a fundamental personal characteristic, very much like gender.  People are asking for the content to enjoy the game, not to "prove" their Shepard is gay.  As I've said, romance is an important part of every heroic tale, but you've ignored that point.  

So gay/bi people, as well as straight people who use same-sex content, are not "serious clients"?... woah....   I bet
BioWare would disagree.   I see you're not even trying to mask your prejudices now....

Modifié par Arik7, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:52 .

[FoxHound109]

Sepewrath wrote...

Apparently you missed all the complaining about that. And if Kaidan was so shamed about his sexuality in ME1, why would he suddenly not care. The mission to chase down Saren, especially after you find out about Sovereign had no less chance of everyone not making back then, the fight in ME2 or the fight in ME3. He fights on the front line and obviously, he can die since he is dead in many games. So why would he suddenly no longer be afraid of his sexuality being discovered, especially if you win and Shepard becomes the biggest celebrity in the galaxy.

There's a difference between being ashamed of your sexuality and treading the ground with caution. This is purely for Kaidan though, since it wouldn't make sense in Ashley case because femShep can romance Liara, so it would have been safe for Williams to assume it was alright with femShep. 

The way I (possibly) see it is that as time passes he grows closer to Shepard and knows him better, making it easier for him to guage whether or not manShep will return his affections. That's just a theory, of course, not saying that's the case. But you get the general point, I hope.

[Sepewrath]

Yeah I get the point of what your saying, but the point is, it doesn't take that long and Kaidan as a character has shown aggression. Just because most woman are heterosexual, it doesn't mean that a fem Shep is, but he had no problem in the same conversations he had with a male Shep, deeming that he should take a shot.

Modifié par Sepewrath, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:52 .

[FoxHound109]

Sepewrath wrote...

Yeah I get the point of what your saying, but the point is, it doesn't take that long and Kaidan as a character has shown aggression. Just because most woman are heterosexual, it doesn't mean that a fem Shep is, but he had no problem in the same conversations, deeming that he should take a shot.

Well, as a gay man I can only talk from personal experience, so take this with a grain of salt: when I meet another guy whose sexuality is unknown to me, even if I find him terribly attractive, I will be very careful around him because I don't know whether he is even into other men and that can become a messy affair if you bring it up. I don't imagine that same difficult exists if you're straight and hitting on the opposite sex. NOT to suggest that it's easy or that all advances would be welcomed, of course, simply that it's one obstacle less. When you're gay you kind of have to guess, but when you're straight you probably don't because even if you ARE wrong, heterosexuality is the norm and you probably would feel that you were perfectly fine to ask. 

As for taking that long: again, it depends...

[Sepewrath]

Well I can say from my experience an aggressive person is an aggressive person. Sounds like your just not aggressive and even if you were heterosexual, you probably would be the same. Because I have seen homosexual men, that took no time to figure out if a guy was gay or not, basically its no different from hitting on someone who is heterosexual for them. The worst that can happen is they say their not interested. And Kaidan showed that he was aggressive, so I don't think he would care about treading lightly.

[Arik7]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well I can say from my experience an aggressive person is an aggressive person. Sounds like your just not aggressive and even if you were heterosexual, you probably would be the same. Because I have seen homosexual men, that took no time to figure out if a guy was gay or not, basically its no different from hitting on someone who is heterosexual for them. The worst that can happen is they say their not interested. And Kaidan showed that he was aggressive, so I don't think he would care about treading lightly.

Kaiden is aggressive?  He comes across as well-mannered and very "average".

As I've mentioned before, bisexuals do tend to be much more vocal about their opposite-sex attractions in public.  Even in BW games, the 2 most vocal "womanizers" were Zevran and Anders...  That could be the "reasonable explanation'......

In reality, of course, Kaiden's romance with male Shepard was cut from ME supposedly due to budget/time constrains.   Now that it's not an issue, I don't see why Kaidan shouldn't be available to the male Shepard.

Modifié par Arik7, 24 juillet 2011 - 02:00 .

[PinkDiamondstl]

Making either one of them Bi is just silly......
Leave them the way that they are. In the norm

[Arik7]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Making either one of them Bi is just silly......
Leave them the way that they are. In the norm

Why do you think it's "silly"?    Many ME fans have grown attached to those characters and would like their Shepard to romance them.

Modifié par Arik7, 24 juillet 2011 - 02:09 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Arik7 wrote...
You sound like a broken record with your "entitlement" straw man argument. This forum is filled with fans who want changes and specific content.  BioWare is asking for feedback from fans, just like any good business should. 

You, on the other hand, sound arrogant and entitled to 100% of BioWare's resources to be used on straight white men.

"what one sleeps with"?   - you make it sound like a choice of a TV show to watch or which fast food restaurant to visit.  Sexuality is a fundamental personal characteristic, very much like gender.  People are asking for the content to enjoy the game, not to "prove" their Shepard is gay.  As I've said, romance is an important part of every heroic tale, but you've ignored that point.  

So gay/bi people, as well as straight people who use same-sex content, are not "serious clients"?... woah....   I bet
BioWare would disagree.   I see you're not even trying to mask your prejudices now....

I'm the broken record? Seems that has been the specialty of the people demanding this sort of thing. But if you wish to overlook the facts and then criticize my argument, go ahead. I'm used to that on the internet after all.

I sound arrogant? If I do it's because of whom I'm dealing with. Unlike some here who think Bioware owes them something, I fully recognize they don't owe me anything. Blaming straight white men? Go ahead, works for plenty of people IRL it seems.

Dress it up however you want, it all boils down to person A wanting to sleep with person B. It applies here too. Somebody wants to bang Kaidan as a man so they come up with all sorts of reasons for why he is and should be bisexual. You want a feature? Go ahead and request it, yet don't be offended when people oppose it.

No they are not "serious clients" compared to markets whom may be playing other shooters, RPGs, or games of different genres. Prejudices? It's a simple fact. Or do you really think there is some huge market out there that would only buy ME3 if it included S/S romances?

[Sepewrath]

Arik7 wrote...
Kaiden is aggressive?  He comes across as well-mannered and very "average".

Haha yeah he is, aggressive doesn't only mean "AHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOOBS!" He could have been bringing her flowers and candy and that still counts as being aggressive, maybe if I use the term proactive, it will sound better you. And he was proactive in his pursuit of Shepard, its hard to believe he is meek on one hand and proactive on the other. And it really doesn't matter what was cut and why it was cut from, if I remember correctly, Legion was suppose to be "hunting" Shepard throughout ME2 and that got cut. We can only based characters on what actually happened, not what could have happened and he showed no interest in a male Shepard, so it would shake the intergrity of his character to suddenly make it so.

[Blacklash93]

ReconTeam wrote...

I'm the broken record? Seems that has been the specialty of the people demanding this sort of thing. But if you wish to overlook the facts and then criticize my argument, go ahead. I'm used to that on the internet after all.

This entire argument is a broken record. From both sides.

If I had to sum up the S/S opposition in one simple word it would be this - Selfish. You guys want everything to yourselves. All resources. All content. You think anything catered to a minority that has no interest to you is a waste. And to you it might as well be, but that doesn't mean you have to harp on Bioware for pandering when you're already being perfectly catered to. Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean you can't just sit back, be happy for those who are interested, and be glad with what you do have... which is a hell of a lot more than what they have. There's just no way the gay community could ever do anything to "deserve" their content in your eyes. They can't win. To you, numbers are entitlement and the majority is the only thing that matters. *You* are the only thing that matters. Concepts like sharing and altruism be damned.

I don't whine that I don't get every last scrap of bacon on the dinner table. I'm happy for the others who are also enjoying it. Why can't you do the same in the context of content you will never know could have existed? All the gay community wanted is one minor thing. One minor thing that only adds slightly to content you're already getting. Is that a crime? Or wanting too much?

The truth is that they're fans like everyone else. Fans that want to enjoy romances in the game the same way you have since ME1. The gay community is certainly overly sensitive and overzealous about their opinions, but at least they don't point fingers and call other demographics a waste of time. They don't claim to be more deserving or worthy than others.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 24 juillet 2011 - 04:26 .

[Blacklash93]

It's like arguing with a spoiled child jealous of the another child for getting the same toy he got when he could have two. No matter how they spin their argument, the fact remains that they're whining over nothing when they should be perfectly happy with what they have.

You people act like a gay romance will cut out something that could have been an entire mission when that's just not true. It doesn't take much resources to slap a gay romance on an already existing straight one.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 24 juillet 2011 - 05:53 .

[Iakus]

Arik7 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Making either one of them Bi is just silly......
Leave them the way that they are. In the norm

Why do you think it's "silly"?    Many ME fans have grown attached to those characters and would like their Shepard to romance them.

For me, to quote you're own words, "Sexuality is a fundamental personal characteristic, very much like gender"  I know you were talking about players, not characters, but in the end what is being advocated here is changing a characteristic of already established characters.  Kaidan did not become tongue-tied around maleShep, but did around femshep.  Ashley did not flirt with femShep, but did with maleShep.  The Shepard they are attracted to is in fact a personal characteristic of theirs. 

Would have been, could have been, hardly matters here.  The characters are established.  Just as Liara's was established.  And before it's brought up, no I don't approve of Tali or Garrus being rewritten to be LIs either.