887 réponses à ce sujet

[KawaiiKatie]

iakus wrote...

Kaidan did not become tongue-tied around maleShep, but did around femshep.  Ashley did not flirt with femShep, but did with maleShep.

To be fair, Ashley and Kaidan only become attracted to Shepard after he/she saves Ash or Kaidan from the Prothean Beacon. We don't know how either Ash or Kaidan would have reacted if same-sex Shepard had saved them, or if same-sex Shepard had flirted with them at any point during the game.

Perhaps Kaidan would have become tongue-tied around male Shepard is male Shepard had saved him from the Prothean Beacon and not Ashley. Perhaps Ashley would have been more inclined to flirt with female Shepard if her sisters commented on how "cute" femShep is, and not how "cute" Kaidan is. We just don't know.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 24 juillet 2011 - 05:46 .

[jlb524]

Some characteristics do change with time though.

Sexuality is one of them, especially considering the differences in private vs. public sexuality.

Or, the characteristics were always there but we just didn't know about them...so it really wouldn't be a change in this case. Also, bisexuals don't necessarily approach each sex in the same manner, so you can't really compare 'what Kaidan did with FemShep' to what he could possibly do with ManShep.

[MirandaLawsonFan]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Making either one of them Bi is just silly......
Leave them the way that they are. In the norm

Agree

[Arik7]

iakus wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Making either one of them Bi is just silly......
Leave them the way that they are. In the norm

Why do you think it's "silly"?    Many ME fans have grown attached to those characters and would like their Shepard to romance them.

For me, to quote you're own words, "Sexuality is a fundamental personal characteristic, very much like gender"  I know you were talking about players, not characters, but in the end what is being advocated here is changing a characteristic of already established characters.  Kaidan did not become tongue-tied around maleShep, but did around femshep.  Ashley did not flirt with femShep, but did with maleShep.  The Shepard they are attracted to is in fact a personal characteristic of theirs. 

Would have been, could have been, hardly matters here.  The characters are established.  Just as Liara's was established.  And before it's brought up, no I don't approve of Tali or Garrus being rewritten to be LIs either.

Ashley and Kaiden have never even expilicy ruled our same-sex relations.  Revealing them as bisexual would expand on their sexuality rather than change it.   It would not affect your game, and it would significantly improve ours.

Mind you, real people sometimes SAY they are straight, and turn out to be 100% gay.

Modifié par Arik7, 24 juillet 2011 - 05:55 .

[ADLegend21]

jlb524 wrote...

Some characteristics do change with time though.

Sexuality is one of them, especially considering the differences in private vs. public sexuality.

Or, the characteristics were always there but we just didn't know about them...so it really wouldn't be a change in this case. Also, bisexuals don't necessarily approach each sex in the same manner, so you can't really compare 'what Kaidan did with FemShep' to what he could possibly do with ManShep.

Agreed.

[KawaiiKatie]

jlb524 wrote...

Some characteristics do change with time though.

Sexuality is one of them, especially considering the differences in private vs. public sexuality.

Or, the characteristics were always there but we just didn't know about them...so it really wouldn't be a change in this case. Also, bisexuals don't necessarily approach each sex in the same manner, so you can't really compare 'what Kaidan did with FemShep' to what he could possibly do with ManShep.

All extremely good points, but especially the bit I bolded at the end.

[Arik7]

jlb524 wrote...

Some characteristics do change with time though.

Sexuality is one of them, especially considering the differences in private vs. public sexuality.

Or, the characteristics were always there but we just didn't know about them...so it really wouldn't be a change in this case. Also, bisexuals don't necessarily approach each sex in the same manner, so you can't really compare 'what Kaidan did with FemShep' to what he could possibly do with ManShep.

[Esbatty]

Technically it is the "end of the universe as they know it" so I'm sure whatever one's thoughts or feelings they might have been harboring can now be shared in the event no one will survive the final battle.

[Arik7]

Esbatty wrote...

Technically it is the "end of the universe as they know it" so I'm sure whatever one's thoughts or feelings they might have been harboring can now be shared in the event no one will survive the final battle.

It's the perfect time for Kaiden to reveal his crush on the male Shepard! :-)

[mesmerizedish]

Esbatty wrote...

Technically it is the "end of the universe as they know it" so I'm sure whatever one's thoughts or feelings they might have been harboring can now be shared in the event no one will survive the final battle.

"Baron," Esbatty whispered, clutching his rifle tightly to his chest. "There's something I need to say." The sound of gunfire was loud, and the two men felt the pulse of concussion grenades exploding just metres away. "This could be the end. And I need you to know... I liked playing the pony."

[Iakus]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

To be fair, Ashley and Kaidan only become attracted to Shepard after he/she saves Ash or Kaidan from the Prothean Beacon. We don't know how either Ash or Kaidan would have reacted if same-sex Shepard had saved them, or if same-sex Shepard had flirted with them at any point during the game.

Perhaps Kaidan would have become tongue-tied around male Shepard is male Shepard had saved him from the Prothean Beacon and not Ashley. Perhaps Ashley would have been more inclined to flirt with female Shepard if her sisters commented on how "cute" femShep is, and not how "cute" Kaidan is. We just don't know.

One could just as easily argue that seeing Shepard gazing out the window of the Citadel started the attraction (it is the first point where any flirtation takes place, after all)  But anything is possible if the phrase starts with "what if"  

Could Bioware rewrite Mass Effect to make Ash and Kaidan attracted to any Shepard?  Sure.  But then Lucas made it so Han didn't shoot first.  And Spieiberg replaced guns with radios.  

[KawaiiKatie]

iakus wrote...

Could Bioware rewrite Mass Effect to make Ash and Kaidan attracted to any Shepard?  Sure.  But then Lucas made it so Han didn't shoot first.  And Spieiberg replaced guns with radios.  

The exploration and deeper examination of a character's sexuality is different than the literal edit of a roll of film. If Bioware went back to ME1 and made a bunch of cuts that allowed Ash and Kaidan to be romanced by same-sex Shepard, your analogy would hold some weight. But if Ash and Kaidan are bisexual in Mass Effect 3, I trust that it will be through the exploration of their character, and not though shameless edits and re-writes.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:09 .

[Arik7]

iakus wrote...
Could Bioware rewrite Mass Effect to make Ash and Kaidan attracted to any Shepard?  Sure.  But then Lucas made it so Han didn't shoot first.  And Spieiberg replaced guns with radios.  

No need to re-write Mass Effect.  Nothing in Mass Effect precludes Ashley or Kaiden from being bisexual so far.

[Esbatty]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

Technically it is the "end of the universe as they know it" so I'm sure whatever one's thoughts or feelings they might have been harboring can now be shared in the event no one will survive the final battle.

"Baron," Esbatty whispered, clutching his rifle tightly to his chest. "There's something I need to say." The sound of gunfire was loud, and the two men felt the pulse of concussion grenades exploding just metres away. "This could be the end. And I need you to know... I liked playing the pony."

I don't - I... this is clearly revenge for the past 7 months of innuendo and unwanted flirtation, isn't it?

[Arik7]

We already know of a character in ME3 who can engage in same-sex relations, while previously he did not ...... *drum roll*.... the male Shepard.

[Iakus]

Perhaps I simply don't have that kind of faith in Bioware's ability to make that examination. I just keep coming back to ME2, and the "Oh, didn't you know? Tali's always had the hots for you" way that romance was handled. I suspect that any change in Kaidan and/or Ashley will receive the same, abrupt, heavy-handed treatment.

Not to mention I already have a preexisting loathing of retcons of any kind. This treads dangerously close to that territory already. If we were talking about James Vega, or another new character, I'd say fine, blank slate, let's see what can be made. However, given that these are my two favorite characters in the ME universe, I do not wish to see either of them folded, spindled, or mutiliated any more than they already have been.

[MirandaLawsonFan]

Kaidan and Ashley should not be BI

[KawaiiKatie]

iakus wrote...

Perhaps I simply don't have that kind of faith in Bioware's ability to make that examination. I just keep coming back to ME2, and the "Oh, didn't you know? Tali's always had the hots for you" way that romance was handled. I suspect that any change in Kaidan and/or Ashley will receive the same, abrupt, heavy-handed treatment.

That's fair enough, I suppose, and I can understand that fear. The Mass Effect series doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to sexuality and what a sensitive, personal issue it can be, but I have hope that if Bioware decides to make Ash and Kaidan available to same-sex Shepards, they will do so with care and respect for the characters.

[Arik7]

iakus wrote...

Perhaps I simply don't have that kind of faith in Bioware's ability to make that examination. I just keep coming back to ME2, and the "Oh, didn't you know? Tali's always had the hots for you" way that romance was handled. I suspect that any change in Kaidan and/or Ashley will receive the same, abrupt, heavy-handed treatment.

Not to mention I already have a preexisting loathing of retcons of any kind. This treads dangerously close to that territory already. If we were talking about James Vega, or another new character, I'd say fine, blank slate, let's see what can be made. However, given that these are my two favorite characters in the ME universe, I do not wish to see either of them folded, spindled, or mutiliated any more than they already have been.

The chances are, even if Ashley and Kaidan are romanceable by a Shepard of the same-sex sex, you wouldn't get to experience it.   Do you care if somebody else does?

[S.A.K]

OMG still fighting here?

[javierabegazo]

Just a friendly Moderator warning to keep things civil and respectful.

[jlb524]

iakus wrote...
Perhaps I simply don't have that kind of faith in Bioware's ability to make that examination. I just keep coming back to ME2, and the "Oh, didn't you know? Tali's always had the hots for you" way that romance was handled. I suspect that any change in Kaidan and/or Ashley will receive the same, abrupt, heavy-handed treatment.

I don't see a problem with that in Tali's romance.  These kind of things happen (someone likes another person but they don't reveal it right away for whatever reason).

iakus wrote...
Not to mention I already have a preexisting loathing of retcons of any kind. This treads dangerously close to that territory already. If we were talking about James Vega, or another new character, I'd say fine, blank slate, let's see what can be made. However, given that these are my two favorite characters in the ME universe, I do not wish to see either of them folded, spindled, or mutiliated any more than they already have been.

It wouldn't be a retcon.  'Retcon' is changing an established fact and it hasn't been established that:  "Kaidan is not bisexual." or "Ashley is not bisexual."  Plus, you wouldn't have to see this content if you don't want to....

[Inquisitor Recon]

Blacklash93 wrote...
This entire argument is a broken record. From both sides.

If I had to sum up the S/S opposition in one simple word it would be this - Selfish. You guys want everything to yourselves. All resources. All content. You think anything catered to a minority that has no interest to you is a waste. And to you it might as well be, but that doesn't mean you have to harp on Bioware for pandering when you're already being perfectly catered to. Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean you can't just sit back, be happy for those who are interested, and be glad with what you do have... which is a hell of a lot more than what they have. There's just no way the gay community could ever do anything to "deserve" their content in your eyes. They can't win. To you, numbers are entitlement and the majority is the only thing that matters. *You* are the only thing that matters. Concepts like sharing and altruism be damned.

I don't whine that I don't get every last scrap of bacon on the dinner table. I'm happy for the others who are also enjoying it. Why can't you do the same in the context of content you will never know could have existed? All the gay community wanted is one minor thing. One minor thing that only adds slightly to content you're already getting. Is that a crime? Or wanting too much?

The truth is that they're fans like everyone else. Fans that want to enjoy romances in the game the same way you have since ME1. The gay community is certainly overly sensitive and overzealous about their opinions, but at least they don't point fingers and call other demographics a waste of time. They don't claim to be more deserving or worthy than others.

I've been catered and pandered to? This is news to me. I don't recall getting anything that I specifically requested. I don't even recall demanding romance options in every Bioware game. But that doesn't matter, because apparently I should be happy for what I see as a waste on Bioware's part. If I don't I guess I'm selfish in your book. Even if I was more neutral in my opinions I would see no need to be happy for anybody.

You're right, short of there being a dozen more LIs including some that are not part of your team I don't see any need for homosexual LIs. By then this minor part of the game would be getting way too much focus anyway. The fact is nobody, including myself and you, "deserve" anything. Sharing and altruism? Try not to get all emotional on me here. Everybody looks out for their own interests around here. I'm not going to say I'm any different.

Would I slam that guy's head into the table to get the last piece of bacon? Probably not. Would I be happy for this guy I don't know? No. If this entire thing is as poorly handled as DA2 it won't be unnoticeable. Is this request a crime? No. Shall I oppose it anyway if I think the game would be better without it? Yes.

Are they fans? Yes, and so are plenty of people who don't bother with forums. The S/S crowd is oversensitive and overzealous as you have said, but they have also done everything you would accuse me of. Yet perhaps I am over-generalizing because there are a handful that seem somewhat reasonable. Now, Bioware has made their decision but I for one would like to see any impact this might have minimized. No changes to pre-existing characters, no James Vega hitting on you, no DA2 repeat, etc.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:36 .

[Iakus]

Do I care? Not really. Not on a personal level. But I'd like to think I can care about the characters themselves and how they're treated, both by players and Bioware.

It doesn't affect me whichever character a given player leaves behind on Virmire. But I still feel a flash of contempt if someone brags "Hurhuhur I left the racist/whiner hugging the bomb"

Similarly, I still haven't forgiven Bioware for Horizon

So if there's talk of rewriting the characters (and it is a rewrite, even if it's "just an expansion of the character") I get nervous.

[TheMarshal]

ReconTeam wrote...

I've been catered and pandered to? This is news to me. I don't recall getting anything that I specifically requested. I don't even recall demanding romance options in every Bioware game. But that doesn't matter, because apparently I should be happy for what I see as a waste on Bioware's part. If I don't I guess I'm selfish in your book. Even if I was more neutral in my opinions I would see no need to be happy for anybody.

You're right, short of there being a dozen more LIs including some that are not part of your team I don't see any need for homosexual LIs. By then this minor part of the game would be getting way too much focus anyway. The fact is nobody, including myself and you, "deserve" anything. Sharing and altruism? Try not to get all emotional on me here. Everybody looks out for their own interests around here. I'm not going to say I'm any different.

Would I slam that guy's head into the table to get the last piece of bacon? Probably not. Would I be happy for this guy I don't know? No. If this entire thing is as poorly handled as DA2 it won't be unnoticeable. Is this request a crime? No. Shall I oppose it anyway if I think the game would be better without it? Yes.

Are they fans? Yes, and so are plenty of people who don't bother with forums. The S/S crowd is oversensitive and overzealous as you have said, but they have also done everything you would accuse me of. Yet perhaps I am over-generalizing because there are a handful that seem somewhat reasonable. Now, Bioware has made their decision but I for one would like to see any impact this might have minimized. No changes to pre-existing characters, no James Vega hitting on you, no DA2 repeat, etc.

As part of the majority you're catered and pandered to by default.