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[Inquisitor Recon]

TheMarshal wrote...
As part of the majority you're catered and pandered to by default.

I can't tell if you're being serious or joking here.

If you're being serious I'll have to call BS here.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:47 .

[Iakus]

jlb524 wrote...

It wouldn't be a retcon.  'Retcon' is changing an established fact and it hasn't been established that:  "Kaidan is not bisexual." or "Ashley is not bisexual."  Plus, you wouldn't have to see this content if you don't want to....

Which is why I said it's "treading dangerously close" to a retcon, rather than calling it one. Essentially,a point is being justified by saying there's nothing directly contradicting it.  That's a slippery slope.

[TheMarshal]

ReconTeam wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
As part of the majority you're catered and pandered to by default.

I can't tell if you're being serious or joking here.

If you're being serious I'll have to call BS here.

What, I'm not serious about the majority being catered to by default?  Or that you're part of it?

[Blacklash93]

ReconTeam wrote...
I've been catered and pandered to? This is news to me. I don't recall getting anything that I specifically requested. I don't even recall demanding romance options in every Bioware game. But that doesn't matter, because apparently I should be happy for what I see as a waste on Bioware's part. If I don't I guess I'm selfish in your book. Even if I was more neutral in my opinions I would see no need to be happy for anybody.

I never said you were being catered and pandered to specifically. I said anything that doesn't contribute to your interests is automatically a universal waste of time for you. Things like a new level (gay romances aren't anywhere near that resource-straining) or more straight romance content are what I'm talking about. That's catering to your demographic.

That's what makes you selfish. You have no consideration for what others may enjoy that doesn't include you. You'd take away what would make ME3 a much more involving and fun experience for some so you can get one small, extra piece of theoretical content. You're not satisfied until every scrap appeals to you.

ME3 will be the same amazing conclusion to the trilogy for everyone, regardless. I honestly can't see how you could ask for more.

Would I slam that guy's head into the table to get the last piece of bacon? Probably not. Would I be happy for this guy I don't know? No. If this entire thing is as poorly handled as DA2 it won't be unnoticeable. Is this request a crime? No. Shall I oppose it anyway if I think the game would be better without it? Yes.

Sharing and altruism have a lot to do with it. I didn't rave at the Talimancers for wanting what they did and getting it, even though the option did nothing for me and I'd rather the resources to make the content be spent on something else. I was simply glad that they got what they wanted. Anyone with an adequate capacity for empathy should feel that way when someone else gets something that makes them happy.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 24 juillet 2011 - 08:34 .

[Orlouge]

jlb524 wrote...

Some characteristics do change with time though.

Sexuality is one of them, especially considering the differences in private vs. public sexuality.

Or, the characteristics were always there but we just didn't know about them...so it really wouldn't be a change in this case. Also, bisexuals don't necessarily approach each sex in the same manner, so you can't really compare 'what Kaidan did with FemShep' to what he could possibly do with ManShep.

It wouldn't surprise me if Ashley or Kaidan developed romantic feelings for s/s Shep given the environment, circumstances, and histories the characters share.  I'm leaning more toward the idea of the fluidity of sexuality, of course, and I don't think that such feelings or relationships with s/s Shep would label Ash or Kaidan bisexual, either.  It's not so much a fixed thing.  Just because Ash or Kaidan were to become close to s/s Shep wouldn't mean anything about their labeled sexuality outside of the relationship.

What's important is the writing and what would make them stumble until they fell in love with s/s Shep, if it were to happen, and their realization of those feelings, and whether or not those feelings are acted upon.

...and I'm rambling.  It's far too early.  I need some coffee.  Black.

Modifié par Pineapple Thief, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:36 .

[Eromenos]

[quote]ReconTeam wrote...

Can't give this up eh? You are persistent, I'll grant you that. Horribly wrong, but persistent.

Well it would be awfully rude of me wonder about the psychology of one who cries with joy over virtual same-sex romance options in a sci-fi video game about saving the galaxy.

[/quote]

Still can't deviate from your one-trick-pony show? Those tears of joy are for you! You'll get to play through ME3 just knowing that Americanized military M/M is hovering just one slip of the finger away. Plus F/F involving two Americanized female soldiers. ATM, I'm just more happy that you'll have to endure them. Whether or not they're tokenized is almost immaterial to me whenever you and I are having talks because I feel like I'm getting more satisfaction simply out of your biphobic dissatisfaction.

[quote]

Well I might get in trouble with the law if I tried to get through into your head with a tire iron, so I'll suppose I'll just have to hope something I say registers. You live in the real world more than myself? Yeah, an internet crusader like yourself demanding Bioware do what you say sure has their priorites straight. But I'm amuzed that you think you've accomplished these great victories against myself in our discussion. If it helps you sleep go ahead and think that, I'm not entirely heartless you see. Rub it in my face? I'm still waiting for you to do so kid, all I'm seeing here is a bunch of empty boasting and whining.

[/quote]

Did you borrow the tire-iron idea from Brokeback, or did you come up with something original on your own? I'm shaking! To me, you're as scary as any mod/dev who threatens me with the party-line double-talk about "no politics," just to cover up their own ME's cavalier toying with politics. So I'm shaking a lot! As much as when you brought up RL gay-bashing even from before! Funny thing about you trying that one. You claimed that queers and straights are treated equally, yet in our last few exchanges you ran towards examples of homophobia even in "[your] liberal state," which proves clearly otherwise. Your only consistency has been that you never stray from one-note hypocrisy.

It's fun rubbing ME3's M/M in your face because you so need me to do it. This way you can tell yourself that you're some crusader for hetero rights by continually arguing with me, but I already know this is just your way of trying to live with yourself, given how you need someone to focus onto regarding your particular bitterness with M/M. I don't mind taking advantage of that. Honestly, I appreciate that you give me these opportunities so freely.

[quote]

Yes, nonsense. Shall I bring out a dictionary? What your senses perceive are quite warped by this persecution complex, so I don't see much valid there. I'm amazed that you haven't learned this during your life yet, but few people care that homosexuals exist, and even fewer care that you in particular exist. Why should they? People look out for themselves and their close friends and family. You think whining and ranting is going to make people care and respect you just because you're gay? You think society owes you something? I'm afraid you're going to be sorely dissapointed. Because nobody owes you anything in life.

[/quote]

Your senses are long mired in this heterocentric complex I'm seeing, which explains why you reason out ways to try trivializing teh ghey. Except there are these dastardly combinations of events where gheyz intersect with the things you thought were inviolate or pure without us. Oh, right here's another incident of your self-contradictions. First you frothed about BioWare devs caving to queer presence, now you tried claiming "few people care that homosexuals exist." Tsk. Your newest one unsurprisingly does not measure up to real-life developments. All those homophobic ME devs doubtlessly hate this situation at least as much as you do, making it all the more pleasurable for me seeing them giving out what they' owe.

[quote]

The big bad straight males out to get you? I don't care how you think you've been wronged. No game developer owes you anything. Me and the rest of the big bad straight males don't owe you anything. People shouldn't be expected to recognize you or pay attention to you just because you're gay. "Emtionally-brutalized queer people?" Get over yourself. You requested content and for whatever reason you got it, you should be grateful regardless of their reasons. Damned grateful.

[/quote]

BioWare's "big bad straight males" know that they owe "people like me," judging by how they've gone and "polluted" both their orignal IPs by increasing M/M. Their actions agree with me regardless of their feelings, or your feelings. In at least to the same degree which heteros are always coddled in these products, queers deserve no less treatment. DA2 was their best so far. ME3 is unlikely to match it, but it's just good to know M/M is on the record as being part of something you thought was only yours.

Requested? Dear, no. Lately all I ever do is condemn and lay it out. My emotionally-brutalized counterparts are the ones who make nice with useless requests, by which I mean their spending power represented by simple presence of quantity here and elsewhere is what actually did it. Queers, along with the supportive segment of hetero gamers. Money! So, nice? Tsk. This is you and me, so there's a 0% chance of you convincing me about the merits of nicenice pleaseplease appeals to those who abuse their advantages. Also, lest you can convince yourself to forget, BioWare had no choice. ME3 had to keep up with current events or risk solidifying their blatant hypocrisy at this point, so no, there was no "asking" of anything going on to make M/M happen. Certainly the people who affect change in establishments larger than BioWare do not ask, they pressure. ME has no choice but to finally keep up with queer visibility. Here's a word I know you'll appreciate: those imagined results stemming from nice, tame queers only exist to you.

[quote]

So because you didn't like Zevran you think Bioware is being "hetrocentric"? What a load of crap. It's a damn shame you think him stereotypical yet that isn't mine, nor Bioware's problem. Patronized? People like yourself are the reason Bioware should just ignore all of the S/S demands. Nothing is good enough for you.

[/quote]

Erm, DA2 was most certainly good enough for me. As in, it's the reason I'm able to write praise about something around here. Not perfect, but it showed stupendous progress. "Nothing is good enough," tsk.

I'mso grateful for your attempts to pare down my description about the tokenism attached to Zevran, but I'm afraid all you did was reaffirm your mistaken heterocentric assumption that you know what's good for queer visibility...despite your own admittance to the fact you know far less of it than I do. Obssessing over it, as you put it once, can do wonders for backing up your own rhetoric. Had you given that concept of research a try before you attempted various other failed gambits here, you could've helped yourself slightly.

Also re-posting myself in case of confusion: The M/M factor is occluded by the fact that he's a tokenized cop-out who exhibited an overtly stronger predeliction for females, all factors to assuage newbies like you. He's rendered into the sharply numerical minority as a patronized-stereotype of bisexuals which the ignorant segment of heterosexuals find tolerable such as yourself, thus cheapening him for actual queer people.

[quote]

Nobody is entitled to anything in life. Get that through your head. If you want to buy into these radical ideas about sexuality go ahead, but don't expect me or anybody else for that matter to care. You think you deserve a quota? You don't. You can define yourself around your sexuality as much as you like, yet you shouldn't expect other people to care or treat you special. Need their hand struck by a ruler? I see you still cling to the idea that you are much more important than you actually are. They don't owe "queers" like you any apperances.  No, "Americanized queer" soldiers won't be the logical outcome because they will be expected to hold themselves to certain standards which would prevent them from behaving like spoiled, flamboyant children as you do.

[/quote]

Queers are entitled to all of it, and by that I mean to the last bit of degree of experience and content a straight gamer gets from ME. The all-bisexual quota is best for that...somebody(perhaps in this thread?) posted BioWare admitted there is economy to the method, since obviously DA2 pulled it off.

"If you want to buy into these radical ideas about sexuality go ahead, but don't expect me or anybody else for that matter to care."  I've mentioned not caring about making friends here...but I must've said so writings that you pretended to skip. Ah, no matter. So long as you still hypocritically find me magnetic...which doesn't speak well for your attempts to frame me as not mattering. But do get it down in writing; the more you repeat this claim to yourself, the better I'm sure you'll convince yourself: Ero so doesn't matter, which is why I have to keep telling myself and make sure to everybody knows just how much he doesn't matter!

Tsk, you would bawk at the idea of BioWare listening to me. Which is fortunate for you, because I also don't believe that they would. My ruler metaphor isn't about me caring if BioWare listens. I care about airing out the criticisms they've earned upon themselves. Given what I've noticed anyway about ME devs' patronizing silent treatment, I'm frankly not here to interact with them in any way. But...there, there. There, there. I can understand why someone with your illusions would assume that everyone else is trying to out-crusader you.

Ah, the beauty of ME's Americanized queer soldiers will come from the fact that straights and queers will be forced to share them, especially the leading male and the leading female. Thus, no chance of segregated cop-outs in DAO-style.

[quote]

My credibility? Please. You're the one preaching these BS theories and continuing this argument because I offended your delicate sensibilities. Somebody like you who feels they are entitled to stuff like this has no credability. So don't presume to speak to me about such matters, because you haven't accomplished any of these things in your pathetic argument. All you've done is repeat the same unsupported nonsense and idea that you are owed this stuff

[/quote]

A key word in there is definitely "read," which was your failing to perform in all 3 instances. Otherwise you wouldn't have shot yourself in the foot, but alas, that's a you problem and not a me problem. It's quite unfortunate how your determination to blow for a lost cause is blinding you from correcting your own mistakes here. Not surprising, of course. When your gameplan doesn't work for you, you simply complain about unfairness instead of learning where you screwed yourself with your own assumptions. Of course, a step in that learning process involves acknowledging having been wrong...even I know you'd prefer to die first.

[quote]

The fact that you think these games were terrible disappointments doesn't make them so. Whine as much as you want about "skewed str8 white male fantasy universes" but the facts are that people really enjoyed both games. You're persecution complex doesn't make your opinion any more important. You make these baseless claims and try to pass them off as fact because they didn't pander to you? You're going to have to try better than that.

[/quote]

Looks like here's something else that's a you-problem; your contentment with being unable to keep up. Those two worse games were thus more suited to you; cop-outs that were stolid with exposition to reassure your breed of gamers about being born into purpose of existence as destined uber-heroes(allegory for str8 white male politics) rather than the reality of actually having to determine it. Alas, it's not for me to overvalue such customs you're mired in.

Come to think of it...now that they''ll likely become no more...where does that leave you?

[quote]

This forum really needs a roll eyes emoticon. People hated DA2 because they were "biphobic?" How many other lies are you going to try to sell me today?

[/quote]

Quite so, their being biphobic in the same vein as you are. Gore's ok, but eeeek, all-bis and nowhere to run! How good to see you're still keepin' it alive. Thus, I find it very agreeable to know that in ME3 I'm getting what I want in a way that deprives you without any apology.

[quote]

Excuses? I'm just saying that my computer was not a POS like your own. DA2 looks better? Compare the darkspawn for a second then come back to me. DA:Os combat also involved strategy and planning, but of course it seems like you're more interested in sleeping with other men than meaningful gameplay.

[/quote]

 Yeah, those...darkspawn. Because I care so much about that...no. I appreciate how minimized the darkspawn were in DA2. I couldn't care less about str8 white male fantasies' requisite freak-show elements. Just another thing DA2 deprived you. Also the Annoyance Remover mods meant for boosting DAO's performance are testaments to that game's overall framerate disaster as a common issue, with or without DA2 running better to show it up.

"more interested in sleeping with other men than meaningful gameplay." And HOW. If I cared most about ultra-tight gameplay combat as my priority I'd play something that could actually pull it off, therefore not any BioWare product. Luckily for them, immersion within the squad and world is my style, and most certainly coupling with attractive men as a man myself at the top. But in regards to the disparity between DAO and DA2, I will definitely detect and critique the relative failings in the former. Even when it had no successor to directly measure up to, DAO was nothing but glacial combat and conservative animations. Tsk. I'd prefer to not be keenly aware of pen-and-paper going on under the hood so much that it demands constraint just for the sake of constraint.

[quote]

Oh yes Kirk automatically had it easy because he was a white straight male... sure. Kirk made his own name for himself in Starfleet. He wasn't concerned with nonsense like your complaints about a "hetrocentic society" because he had a mission and a greater cause. I have no doubt you hate him however for being the sort of male who doesn't represent your vision of society.

[/quote]

You mean Kirk was a cowboy who obliviously screwed his colleagues and teachers over, made messes for everyone else, and even cheated his way to graduation. Judging by that "reboot," he is still the worst person for that chair. But since his archetype is used to constantly create and affirm cavalier privilege in those who can resemble him, it's no surprise that all his wannabes prefer a "hero" label for him. I it when rare straight white males are turned off by Kirk, yet the ones who drone loudest everywhere are definitely the type to cheer him on.

[quote]

Gaider has always seemed somewhat egotistical and a devotee of political correctness. In that sense he has much more in common with you. Defending the DA development teams from the slanderous lies of you hardly changes where his own opinions fall. You just happen to be more radical than he is. But please, go ahead and play Mr. Tough Guy and dismiss your greatest supporter. Maybe it will teach him something about a lack of gratitude.

[/quote]

 Gratitude. Thanks but no, as usual I'm going to pass. That's a concept you and he both are addicted...the idea that BioWare is owed gratitude, or anything for that matter. Sad to break this to you again, but anytime a person's only concern or motivation is to be a hero, then it's just about him/her and not whatever it is the person's cheapening by making a point out of crusading for. You two indeed have so much in common there; you both criticize my radicalism. I, for one, am very proud of what I am.

[quote]


Frankly, your opinion of who is homophobic and who isn't is completely worthless. I'd hold the opinion of those Iranian security officials who declare tourists to be western spies in higher regard than what you have to say about homophobia. You expect people to pander to you, to treat you special, to approve of whatever you do and share your beliefs. Well it doesn't work that way.

[/quote]

Any chance you've heard of Sally Kern? You're probably a great fit for her team! She's got the gays-are-worse-than-terrorists platform, even if yours is focused on just me specifically.

You expect people to pander to you, to treat you special, to approve of whatever you do and share your beliefs. Well it doesn't work that way. Such a coincidence, I was thinking the same thing about you. And as to that, I'm pretty sure the influx of bisexuality in these games is a telling example.

[quote]

I love this revisionist history you've invented. You've derailed this from the start and haven't proven a thing. Your entire argument consists of some child-like sense of entitlement and claims that society is out to get you. I say something that is common sense and you talk about some BS sociology theory trying to justify your opinion. Politics? You're about as neutral as a member of the PLO when it comes to politics. I hate to break this to you but you are a small vocal minority and you have offered nothing factual to prove otherwise. Quoted my mistakes? Are you always this delusional or are you just like this when it comes to S/S matters?

[/quote]

Hehe, revisionist is your thing, not mine. The idea of str8 America you envision was never pure as you needed it to be, not anywhere or any time. Witness the hundreds of drag kings who fought on both sides of the Civil War, and who continued living as such afterwards. Just another tidbit for you there. As for proving this or that, I'm always happy to remind you of how I deconstructed your half-thought-out ideas that went nowhere, the core gambits of which ended up serving my arguments instead of yours. Sociology, race, influence of queer gamers in addition to other topics I picked apart even more recently. I can't think of a time in which you established anything that was helpful to your wishful thinking. The "BS sociology" as you call it now was actually your tactic first, and I'm quite happy to never let slide the fact that you didn't know anything about it. Along those same lines, I like reminding you how its tenets of social construction ended up supportingme. Clearly it wasn't BS when you first thought to throw it out there, hoping I would know as little or less than you did. Bad luck for you.

[quote]

The reality of this situation? The reality of this situation is that M/F "relations" while on duty occur only rarely because said regulations forbid it. Your idea that M/M relationships would be more encouraged is pure nonsense I'm afraid, in fact they'd be frowned down upon even more. But from what I've seen you don't care for facts when they threaten your "vision" for society and the military.

[/quote]

"Rarely" mmm, nope, but feel free to try covering for your heroes' relations anyway. It's what you do! The shenanigans of every combination in the military are greater than those at priest-colleges. Regulations forbid them too, you know. Alas. The Notre Dame priest students in particular are inseparable, last I heard. But back to the military. I'm not sure whether military broken marriages and/or affairs represent a macrocosm or a microcosm for the U.S., being the divorce capitol of the world. I really don't know which atm, but I do know such relations are as notorious.

M/M encouraged, but of course. Certainly not spelled out in the limited way that you want to frame it. The rest amounts to more thanks to homoerotic hot-bunking and near-24/7 proximity that helps the queer males in the ranks more so than the segregated M/F potentials. Much more.

It's ok though, you don't have to face it. But BioWare did.

[quote]

Don't work? They work the majority of the time. The fact is that a M/M relationship while on duty would get those involved punished or discharged for violating any number of regulations. The same would apply to a soldier hitting on others in uniform or disturbing individuals with information about their bedroom life. This is also more likely to be reported and acted upon than any M/F relationship. Even with DADT repealed a soldier isn't going to be able to act like a flaming homosexual or sleep with other soldiers. The fact that you think otherwise is nothing but outright disrespect to the United States military and those men and women serving. I hate to remind you this, but even without DADT homosexuality has no place in our military.

[/quote]

Ah no, they're just token regulations. People find a way, and often. Military especially. As to your assertion about soldiers being reported for misrepresenting their uniforms to civilians, I suggest you "get together" with an actual soldier you idolize so much and ask about the condoms that are distributed to them as they travel outbound to places like Iraq. As in nowadays. My straight male GI classmate told us that the condoms were a customary distribution from male officers to male soldiers who were shipping out, to protect "our boys" when they felt like raping the local populations. The horror of that reality caused him to substitute a euphemism when he recounted it for us, but he did also clarify. So yeah, mmmm, military integrity. Convicted rapists and child molestors were able to openly enlist when openly queer people could not. Do try to reconsider your American military cheerleading. The blue wall of silence isn't just limited to po-lice, you know.

I'm still wondering about these specific regulations you no doubt want but fail to quote at me in regards to forbidance of S/S in the military. Hmmm? Are they real, or just something you dreamed up to suit yourself? Any and all such things would fall under the scope of DADT, and that was just killed. There aren't any "special regs" for da queerz. As I've said before, smoother sailing.

You're always free to continue pretending that queer male soldiers can only ever be flamers bad at their jobs. Please, do so, neither they nor I require you to think or do anything in the least. The White House and the Pentagon together both certified DADT repeal just a couple days ago, to boot. As for the queer male soldiers who do happen to be flamers, my guess is their squadmates happen to like being around them.

[quote]

You've clearly demonstrated to me that you don't care about our military or those serving in it other than your beloved "queers." Overglorified shock troops? It is their opinions that must come first on a matter like this for obvious reasons. You want to go into hypothetical scenarios? A good soldier can be any number of things, yet if he is a homosexual he certainly wouldn't behave in a manner similar to yourself or be hitting on and dating other men on duty. What was common in Ancient Greece isn't applicable today, no matter how much depraved individuals like yourself want it to be so. What European militiaries do is not my concern, especially considering how often their budgets are cut by greedy politicians who have gotten used to the United States carrying their weight for them. Yes soldiers in the UK can be openly gay. Yet you think that means they are allowed to have relationships with officers and other soldiers? No it does not. Sailor jokes aside, your idea of what the military will become is pure nonsense.

[/quote]

Correction- I don't care about the segments of the military who despise queer people. Such haters find themselves in the general minority of the institution these days. Among queer supporters in the ranks no doubt many of them aren't rid of homophobia, but they also don't believe in DADT trampling on people they know, which is a step for "my kind" and a backhand to "your kind."

Oh, I think not in the case of shock troops. No doubt the majority of them hold their selves above the rest of humanity in general, and in particular queers. That would mean their ranks present far fewer entry points to queers who do hack it, but even so the shock troops' opinions have also moved towards favoring inclusion just as the rest of the military has. Their progress is much slower, but fortunately for everyone, they ultimately answer to civilians.

As to your claim about ancient militaries' customs somehow being not applicable today, looks like you want to assume that I require constant M/M sexxxing in the ranks? Ero, he's so sex-crazed. There is actually a difference between commanding orgies as opposed to simply allowing for queer soldiers to not hide themselves. That latter part may or may not simply mean having partners who are outside the military, in addition to speaking frankly about sex just as straight soldiers do, but still too the possibility of relations/relationships with other soldiers. Just like straights, though you're always free to continue denying the commonality of both. Greece was bigger on outright pushing for lovers to fight alongside each other, and that worked for them. Only in that sense is it less workable for us because we don't let any couples near those situations, but the fact that Greece often had queer males fighting and winning disproves your ideas about non-straight guys being incapable.

European countries care less about shameful bullying wars that this country feeds from. Why would they care about fielding potent invasion armies?

[quote]

Your opinions are so warped and distorted what you think of me doesn't even matter. Yet go ahead and humiliate yourself by showing what a spoiled child you are, an over-entitled fanboy who rages against society because it doesn't adher to his vision.
[/quote]

Hehe, you're getting so easy for me now because you've been sticking to such a formulaic mold.

Modifié par Eromenos, 24 juillet 2011 - 10:41 .

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

Kaidan did not become tongue-tied around maleShep, but did around femshep.

Kaidan thinks Shepard is straight, it's already an in-game fact so obviously he wouldn't flirt with male Shepard unless he learns Shep is not straight. It's really simple.

Sepewrath wrote...

Not really, the difference with Tali and Garrus is they showed no interest in anyone, Kaidan showed that when he wanted Shep(a fem Shep) he would go after them, but for a male Shep he wouldn't? 

No because he thinks Shep is straight = he thinks he has no chance with man Shep since straight men don't like other men.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 24 juillet 2011 - 10:16 .

[catharsisboo]

Sorry for getting in between the back-and-forth wall o' text arguments, but why does everything have to be "retcon this", "retcon that"? Did I miss something in ME1 where Kaidan tells ManShep that he's only into women?

Also, can we start auto-correcting the word "retcon" into something nicer? Like "kittens"? Or "cookies"? I've seen the word so much around the S/S topics that it makes me question whether some people have ever utilized thesaurus.com.

[AngelicMachinery]

You hate retcon, I hate immersion. Both words have come to simply mean "I don't like it, get rid of it!"

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It wouldn't be a retcon.  'Retcon' is changing an established fact and it hasn't been established that:  "Kaidan is not bisexual." or "Ashley is not bisexual."  Plus, you wouldn't have to see this content if you don't want to....

Which is why I said it's "treading dangerously close" to a retcon, rather than calling it one. Essentially,a point is being justified by saying there's nothing directly contradicting it.  That's a slippery slope.

To be fair, any time you expand on a backstory, you're on this slippery slope by default. You're working with "what hasn't been directly contradicted" when coming up with new stories to tell about characters we know. Thus we have Legion and the true geth, even though "geth" were enemies in the first game. We have the whole Cerberus storyline, even though they were unambiguously criminals in the first game. We have Tali's crush and Garrus' willingness to explore sexytimes with Shepard, even though there was no hint of any dextrophilia in the first game. The fact is that there isn't a whole lot that's been 100% established about any character in the games so far, and the writers have the freedom to add layers to those characters as they see fit. They do have the mandate to expand those backstories in a believable way, though, as they did with the geth storyline. I would facepalm if Mordin suddenly revealed that he had a torrid love affair with a female krogan when he was a young man, since that doesn't fit with what we know about salarians, krogans or anything else. It wouldn't be a retcon per se, but it would be rather preposterous from a storytelling standpoint. I would facepalm if Liara revealed that she has a twin sister who was eeeeeevil. Again, not a retcon, because Liara never explicitly stated that she was an only child, but it's still a dumb idea. There's a number of things that would be Really Bad Story Ideas. But it cracks me up that something like Kaidan and Ashley saying "oh yeah, I also go for my own sex sometimes, you didn't know that Shepard?" is The Most Unrealistic Thing Ever™ for some people. Geez, people, really?

[Siansonea]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

You hate retcon, I hate immersion. Both words have come to simply mean "I don't like it, get rid of it!"

This. Especially since the actual examples of retroactive continuity and implausible story elements that already exist in the games are not addressed by the "OMG VS can't be gay [sic]**" crowd.

** Because the word "bisexual" doesn't seem to be fully understood in this context.

[FoxHound109]

Good Lord! You two could write a thesis with all those forty-foot high walls-o-text! O_O

[Iakus]

IsaacShep wrote...

iakus wrote...

Kaidan did not become tongue-tied around maleShep, but did around femshep.

Kaidan thinks Shepard is straight, it's already an in-game fact so obviously he wouldn't flirt with male Shepard unless he learns Shep is not straight. It's really simple.

The fact that Shepard is Kaidan (and Ashley's) superior officer by itself should make Shep "unattainable" to them.  At that point, what difference should gender make?

[Siansonea]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Good Lord! You two could write a thesis with all those forty-foot high walls-o-text! O_O

I just ignore the Wall Of Text Wars. Seriously, SO bored. If one can't make a point in one or two paragraphs, one is probably just "talking to hear one's own voice" anyway.

[FoxHound109]

Siansonea II wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

Good Lord! You two could write a thesis with all those forty-foot high walls-o-text! O_O

I just ignore the Wall Of Text Wars. Seriously, SO bored. If one can't make a point in one or two paragraphs, one is probably just "talking to hear one's own voice" anyway.

The funniest part is that NOBODY but themselves are actually reading the walls-o-text, so even if someone "wins" the argument we probably won't ever know. 

[AngelicMachinery]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

Good Lord! You two could write a thesis with all those forty-foot high walls-o-text! O_O

I just ignore the Wall Of Text Wars. Seriously, SO bored. If one can't make a point in one or two paragraphs, one is probably just "talking to hear one's own voice" anyway.

The funniest part is that NOBODY but themselves are actually reading the walls-o-text, so even if someone "wins" the argument we probably won't ever know. 

I've read them, they are essentially the longest "NO U"'s ever.

[Arik7]

ReconTeam wrote...

Modifié par Arik7, 24 juillet 2011 - 07:58 .

[FoxHound109]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I've read them, they are essentially the longest "NO U"'s ever.

I don't know why, but this cracked me up! <3

[shepskisaac]

iakus wrote...

The fact that Shepard is Kaidan (and Ashley's) superior officer by itself should make Shep "unattainable" to them.  At that point, what difference should gender make?

The difference that when Kaidan assumes female Shepard is straight it means he has a chance with her (as of course straight women like men) so he may go for it and try to flirt, but when he assumes male Shepard is straight it means he has no chance with him (as of course straight men don't like other men) so why would he try flirting at all. It's really simple.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:16 .

[Zered]

I love this thread, I had a great laugh. Now as for Ashley and Kaidan somehow I can see Bioware taking them in the same direction as in DA2. We will see Shep, Ash and Kaidan happily frolicking in the woods with unicorns and ponies running around.

[Iakus]

[quote]Siansonea II wrote...


To be fair, any time you expand on a backstory, you're on this slippery slope by default. You're working with "what hasn't been directly contradicted" when coming up with new stories to tell about characters we know.[/quote]

Agreed.  Which is why I much prefer it when things are preplanned ahead of time, so I can have faith that these "gaps" are meant to be there and be filled at a later time.

[/quote]Thus we have Legion and the true geth, even though "geth" were enemies in the first game. [/quote]  The geth that we faced were the enemy.  It's not unreasonable that there were other geth somewhere who might not share the views of the geth we faced. (though the fact that the True geth are 95% of all geth is rather odd)  Just like not all krogan share Wrex's views.  Not all turians are like Saren.  Or Garrus.  Or the turian Councilor, for which we can all be thankful..

Now if Legion was a Heretic geth who suddenly reformed, we'd have a problem 

[quote]We have the whole Cerberus storyline, even though they were unambiguously criminals in the first game.[/quote]

Don't get me started on the Cerberus changes 

[quote]We have Tali's crush and Garrus' willingness to explore sexytimes with Shepard, even though there was no hint of any dextrophilia in the first game[/quote]

As I stated before, I don't approve of either them them being LI's in ME2.

[quote]The fact is that there isn't a whole lot that's been 100% established about any character in the games so far, and the writers have the freedom to add layers to those characters as they see fit. They do have the mandate to expand those backstories in a believable way, though, as they did with the geth storyline. [/quote]

True, but just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.  Believability is the key.  People are already expressing doubt that Ashley, or even Kaidan can be a Spectre, despite the events of ME1.  Yet expending on gender preference is more believable?  If they can't pull off one, I highly doubt they can achieve the other.

[quote]I would facepalm if Mordin suddenly revealed that he had a torrid love affair with a female krogan when he was a young man, since that doesn't fit with what we know about salarians, krogans or anything else. It wouldn't be a retcon per se, but it would be rather preposterous from a storytelling standpoint. I would facepalm if Liara revealed that she has a twin sister who was eeeeeevil. Again, not a retcon, because Liara never explicitly stated that she was an only child, but it's still a dumb idea. There's a number of things that would be Really Bad Story Ideas. But it cracks me up that something like Kaidan and Ashley saying "oh yeah, I also go for my own sex sometimes, you didn't know that Shepard?" is The Most Unrealistic Thing Ever™ for some people. Geez, people, really?
[/quote]

Not the most unrealistic thing ever, at least to me.  Shepard came back from the dead with the power of SCIENCE!  In comparison, Ash and Kaidan's choices in bed partners seems pretty minor.   But it is the most unrealistic thing I've seen being touted as a serious possibility for ME3.  

Dangit, now I'm doing walls of texts.  I promised myself I'd cut back on this!

Modifié par iakus, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:22 .

[KawaiiKatie]

iakus wrote...

The fact that Shepard is Kaidan (and Ashley's) superior officer by itself should make Shep "unattainable" to them.  At that point, what difference should gender make?

Kaidan assumes that Shepard is straight no matter what gender Shepard is, even if Shepard is, in fact, female and gay for Liara. When femShep reveals that she likes other women, Kaidan has a big, "OH!" moment and stops his advances... unless femShep strings him along, of course.

[Siansonea]

Arik7 wrote...

Arguing on the Internet is like participating in Special Olympics. Even if you "win", you're still a .....

Not cool. <_<

[Siansonea]

michalooo wrote...

I love this thread, I had a great laugh. Now as for Ashley and Kaidan somehow I can see Bioware taking them in the same direction as in DA2. We will see Shep, Ash and Kaidan happily frolicking in the woods with unicorns and ponies running around.

+1 for unicorns, ponies, and frolicking.

[Siansonea]

iakus wrote...
*snip*

Agreed.  Which is why I much prefer it when things are preplanned ahead of time, so I can have faith that these "gaps" are meant to be there and be filled at a later time.

Well, that’s rather impractical due to the nature of what we’re discussing. This is a video game, with a LOT of writers, and many characters are written by different writers from game to game. And unless a character is written by the same writer across all the games, there’s very little chance the new writer would know what gaps are left intentionally and which ones are just unexplored avenues. The good writer picks the best unexplored avenues, regardless of the original writer’s intent.

*snip*
The geth that we faced were the enemy.  It's not unreasonable that there were other geth somewhere who might not share the views of the geth we faced. (though the fact that the True geth are 95% of all geth is rather odd)  Just like not all krogan share Wrex's views.  Not all turians are like Saren.  Or Garrus.  Or the turian Councilor, for which we can all be thankful..

Now if Legion was a Heretic geth who suddenly reformed, we'd have a problem 

My point is nothing about the Heretic/True Geth situation was hinted at in the first game, so it was a totally new idea for the second game. It’s not a retcon though, because nothing in the first game explicity stated that the geth situation could not have been as it was presented in ME2.

*snip*

True, but just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.  Believability is the key.  People are already expressing doubt that Ashley, or even Kaidan can be a Spectre, despite the events of ME1.  Yet expending on gender preference is more believable?  If they can't pull off one, I highly doubt they can achieve the other.

Until we know how they’ll pull off either of these ideas, it’s premature to categorically state that they “can’t” believably pull them off. People are judging the quality of the writing before seeing it. Just like people are judging James Vega based on a couple of concept images. You can’t judge something’s quality based on incomplete information. And I’d say that BioWare’s track record with romances is better than their track record with main plot ideas. I had relatively few complaints about the various romance storylines in ME2, and most of those complaints were about the voice acting/direction rather than the words on the page.

*snip*
Not the most unrealistic thing ever, at least to me.  Shepard came back from the dead with the power of SCIENCE!  In comparison, Ash and Kaidan's choices in bed partners seems pretty minor.   But it is the most unrealistic thing I've seen being touted as a serious possibility for ME3.  

Dangit, now I'm doing walls of texts.  I promised myself I'd cut back on this!

I don’t think Ashley/Kaidan’s sexuality is much of a stumbling block at all, personally. Well, Ashley does give me a bit of a moment of “hmmmm”, but Kaidan doesn’t. But that’s a pretty minor hiccup to me in the grand scheme of things. I am much more concerned about “Cerberus is the enemy now, mmmkay?” in ME3, because it sounds suspiciously like the “You’re working for Cerberus now, mmmkay?” BS from ME2. It sounds like an artificial gameplay decision that will be given a story handwave by the writers, because they need human enemies for Shepard to fight. I doubt very seriously that this is the natural evolution of the Cerberus storyline that ‘was planned from the beginning’. Cerberus is just a story element that BioWare shoves into the story for whatever is needed in the story at that moment. Need an enemy? Cerberus. Need a quest giver? Cerberus. Need an enemy again? Cerberus. That to me is infinitely more disconcerting that “oh, Ash and Kaidan are bi? I did not know that”.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:47 .