887 réponses à ce sujet

[C9316]

Fidget6 wrote...

MegaBadExample wrote...

No.

New characters can be Bi.

Pretty much this.

I agree with this.

[Ruud333]

Chun Hei wrote...

It is best to focus only on what he has written and not try to define him. Let HIM be the one resorting to calling people "fanboys" which I guess is a personal insult he is very much in love with.

Exactly.  As soon as you start calling people names, it is very easy for them to turn it into a discussion about how you are insulting them for expressing their opinion.  As Chun Hei said, the focus should be on what you disagree with/dislike about what they posted, rather than them.

A lot of the anti-s/s romance posters (at least the ones that end up in arguments - I have no probs somebody politely stating that they don't want s/s romances) on these forums are quite adept at making posts that fall within the rules for this site, but are just offensive/annoying enough to rile up the pro-s/s peeps. 

Anyways, on topic:  Bi Kaiden/Ash is fine with me.  Personally I have zero interest in the s/s romances (the same as I will never play as a Sentinel or Engineer), but I have no probs with them being included.

[Agamo45]

It might make sense for Kaidan, he was always a pansy. But Ashley always seemed perfectly straight to me, and she seemed to be devoutly religious. It wouldn't make any Goddamn sense for her to suddenly become a lesbian.

[BatmanPWNS]

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

[Ryzaki]

I really wish people would learn the difference between homosexuality and bisexuality. Some of these posts are just facepalm inducing to read because of that.

[Blooddrunk1004]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Something DA2 desperately needs.

[Ryzaki]

Yes let's not forget the racists and sexists as well. And if you're not rich let the PC be ignored by everyone (in Dragon Age). Let's also be realistic and not have the PC be able to have a weapon unless he/she is apart of a certain class (and if he/she is a thug they have to replace their weapons after a period of time and in combat they can be one hit killed). Oh and all those neat completely world changing experiences? No longer part of what the PC can influence. That's not realistic. And Shepard being an alien lover should be met with repulsion unless his partner's an Asari. 

Or does realism have to stop at certain limit?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:25 .

[Celtic Latino]

I'd rather they didn't, not because I'm against s/s romances (because I do play them), but because I don't like retconning of characters unless it's absolutely necessary. The only 'bisexual' for old characters outside of Liara (who already is a bi option) would probably be Jack (since she was already with both genders) and possibly Thane (he struck me as a possibility).

Ashley I just see as a heterosexual character as I do Kaidan. Even if they were 'bi' options I just wouldn't play them that way. Same with Jacob and Miranda. If a male Shep tried to get to know him in ME2 he became uncomfortable (implying he is definitely straight) and Miranda really doesn't seem all that interested in women.

I could care less for the 'local minority' that insists every romanceable should be bisexual. I'm all for new bisexual characters, but I wouldn't even mind exclusively homosexual or lesbian characters either.

[Iakus]

The only reason I don't like the idea is because it would require rewriting the characters to a greater or lesser degree.  Personally, I didn't even like the idea of Garrus and Tali becoming LIs (especially Tali, as she was rewritten to have always had a crush on Shepard)

Even if it's "just a little change" it would still retcon the characters.  And I have a particular loathing for retcons

And yes, it would be a retcon, because in ME1, Ash didn't have an interest in femShep and Kaidan was not interested in maleShep.  And Tali had no interest in eitherShep

Vega, or any other new characters, write them as you will.  But established characters are...established...

[SolidnOld]

[Palidane]

 I'm fine with S/S romances. I'm neutral on gays. But what I disapprove of is that some people, like Eromenos, think that they are "owed" something by Bioware. I think thats both dumb and whiny. The fact is, Bioware is a company, and companies make money by selling products people like. And since people like things they can relate to, companies make products that will appeal to the highest amount of people.

So I have to ask, if gays get to demand that the sexuality of various characters should be decided on their whim, why can't Christians like me decide everyone's religion? Why can't Bioware write up two complete sets of diolog for every character, one Atheist, one Christian? So far, gays have only gotten Liara, who wasn't a real homosexual. Well, all we have is Ashley, and she is not a proper Christian character, just "spiritual". Christians are equally underrepresented in this game as gays, but we don't demand Bioware caters the whole universe to our need or else their Athiest bigots. 

I'm not saying all supporters of S/S romances are like this, I only wished to draw a comparison. I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but there are alot more Christians than gays. It would make much more sense for Bioware to "pander" to us, but they don't. And we don't complain. Neither do Muslims, Hindu's, Asexuals, Republicans, or Democrats, all of which are equally underrepresented, and all of which except maybe the Hindu's are discriminated against to varying levels in America.

So all I want to know is why gays get to moan and take some great stand against homophobia in games, while most everyone else just accepts they can't cater to everyone and moves on? Because what's important to you is unimportant to others, and vice versa. Why are you more special than us? How are you not a vocal minority?

I don't intend to offend anyone, these are honest questions.

Modifié par Palidane, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[Chun Hei]

Palidane wrote...

 I'm fine with S/S romances. I'm neutral on gays. But what I disapprove of is that some people, like Eromenos, think that they are "owed" something by Bioware. I think thats both dumb and whiny. The fact is, Bioware is a company, and companies make money by selling products people like. And since people like things they can relate to, companies make products that will appeal to the highest amount of people.

So I have to ask, if gays get to demand that the sexuality of various characters should be decided on their whim, why can't Christians like me decide everyone's religion? Why can't Bioware write up two complete sets of diolog for every character, one Atheist, one Christian? So far, gays have only gotten Liara, who wasn't a real homosexual. Well, all we have is Ashley, and she is not a proper Christian character, just "spiritual". Christians are equally underrepresented in this game as gays, but we don't demand Bioware caters the whole universe to our need or else their Athiest bigots. 

I'm not saying all supporters of S/S romances are like this, I only wished to draw a comparison. I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but there are alot more Christians than gays. It would make much more sense for Bioware to "pander" to us, but they don't. And we don't complain. Neither do Muslims, Hindu's, Asexuals, Republicans, or Democrats, all of which are equally underrepresented, and all of which except maybe the Hindu's are discriminated against to varying levels in America.

So all I want to know is why gays get to moan and take some great stand against homophobia in games, while most everyone else just accepts they can't cater to everyone and moves on? Because what's important to you is unimportant to others, and vice versa. Why are you more special than us? How are you not a vocal minority?

I don't intend to offend anyone, these are honest questions.

You are free to ask Bioware to give you all the options you want. I am a bit pagan myself but I would love for more games to make religious backgrounds important in role playing as the spacer, survivor or ruthless Shepard. Gays are unhappy because there has always been s/s in ME but it has been lesbian. Few believe that the HAWT lesbian options were pandering to gays as much to the stereotypical male gamer.

Bioware said they can and will have same sex content in ME3. There is no argument to be had except how it will be set up.

Bioware has done something that all entertainment companies say they want to do. They have a lot of women fans. They have a loyal gay following. Most women I know do not mind gay or bi options in RPGs and we are more than 50 percent of the population in the USA. Gays are not numerous but gay men especially have comparitively a lot of spending money the could put into the VG industry. Bioware is catering to their market. God forbid they make games people actually want.

There is a lot of yelling on this forum about it and I do hear many people in game stores who are not happy about s/s romance but they do not care enough to let that ruin a game for them. They do not whine for hours about their immersion being ruined. If Bioware makes a good story for their shooter they are happy.

Marketing games to conservative religious people would be problematic. Almost ALL renegade options would have to be removed. Jack gone. Miranda should not be looking for ways to get pregnant if she is not married. No premarital sex. No sex outside your species. Mass Effect and Dragon Age could not exist at even a basic level.

This is a role playing game. There is NOTHING that the s/s fans want that will keep you from playing as a "straight" Shepard. Nothing that keeps him from being a racist or a murderer. There would be no real religious option introduced even if there were no gay male option so do not pretend that conservative Christians, Jews or Republicans cannot fully develop their Shepards because he can now be a gay male.

[AngelicMachinery]

Palidane wrote...

 I'm fine with S/S romances. I'm neutral on gays. But what I disapprove of is that some people, like Eromenos, think that they are "owed" something by Bioware. I think thats both dumb and whiny. The fact is, Bioware is a company, and companies make money by selling products people like. And since people like things they can relate to, companies make products that will appeal to the highest amount of people.

So I have to ask, if gays get to demand that the sexuality of various characters should be decided on their whim, why can't Christians like me decide everyone's religion? Why can't Bioware write up two complete sets of diolog for every character, one Atheist, one Christian? So far, gays have only gotten Liara, who wasn't a real homosexual. Well, all we have is Ashley, and she is not a proper Christian character, just "spiritual". Christians are equally underrepresented in this game as gays, but we don't demand Bioware caters the whole universe to our need or else their Athiest bigots. 

I'm not saying all supporters of S/S romances are like this, I only wished to draw a comparison. I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but there are alot more Christians than gays. It would make much more sense for Bioware to "pander" to us, but they don't. And we don't complain. Neither do Muslims, Hindu's, Asexuals, Republicans, or Democrats, all of which are equally underrepresented, and all of which except maybe the Hindu's are discriminated against to varying levels in America.

So all I want to know is why gays get to moan and take some great stand against homophobia in games, while most everyone else just accepts they can't cater to everyone and moves on? Because what's important to you is unimportant to others, and vice versa. Why are you more special than us? How are you not a vocal minority?

I don't intend to offend anyone, these are honest questions.

I don’t want to be an ass or anything,  but,  I’m not seeing the similarity.  Perhaps,  if BioWare had decided to emphasize a choice in religious backgrounds as they have emphasized sexuality in Mass Effect it may be apt.  As is,  outside of one conversation with Ashley it isn’t brought up… and point in fact if they decided to throw in texts for every religious sect in existence the game would be huge and they’d probably go bankrupt thanks to the cost of voice actors.
.
This isn’t so with bisexual romance options.  The number of lines doesn’t jump dramatically,  point in fact,  the differences are fairly small.  See Leliana and Zevran’s romances for each sex,  sure,  there are differences but not enough where it becomes financially damning. 

As I have said though, religion isn’t important in the mass effect universe.  Your character can of course still act like a good religious individual thanks to the choices you make.  Of course,  you can’t proselytize but,  is spreading the word as important as making the choices?  Besides,  when are you going to have time to convert random strangers when you’re attempting to save the galaxy.

As for republicans and democrats they probably don’t exist anymore what with the drastic change in the political landscapes of earth.  If you bring up race,  I counter with the fact that Shepard herself can be a representative of any race…  while homosexuals were for the most part simply swept under the rug.  An asexual can simply choose not to indulge in the romance options,  homosexual again do not have that choice.

As is though,  Relationships have been a selling point for Bioware Games.  They deepen character interaction and it enhances the character of Shepard.   It provides another reason to fight,  it causes dramatic tension,  and it opens up further dialogue (The most important part of a romance if you don’t mind me saying.)  Unfortunatly homosexual males haven’t had an opportunity to indulge in one of the touted features of the game,  an “Important” feature of the game in the eyes of many of the players.  While lesbians were told that there “S/S” relationship didn’t count. 

I don’t think we’re owed anything,  but,  I do want to see homosexual content in the game.  Sure the group is vocal,  but,  if you don’t make yourself heard we’ll never be paid attention to.  Just because we aren’t in the majority doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be heard.  Sometimes when your not in the majority you have to raise your voice to be recognized. 

[Blitzkrieg0811]

SolidnOld wrote...

You took the words right outta my mouth.

[lietk12]

If Bioware were to decide that religion was an important topic which should directly influence how a player experiences the game, and then decided that everyone should play as belonging to a certain religion which currently exists, I would certainly support efforts made by people of other religions to seek recognition. As the game's writing currently exists, however, present-day religion doesn't really show up very much (but, seeing as nonhumans reference their religions and deities often, why shouldn't humans do the same?).
I think Eromenos's reasoning is that, if Bioware wishes to depict people of a certain type, they shouldn't do it exploitatively (specifically, "look, hot female-on-female action! Now buy this game to watch it happen. But of course, we won't have any of those weird gays, because that would be inappropriate." is the perceived attitude). While some of the rhetoric in that post seems rather extreme to me, it makes sense to think that Bioware should try to portray s/s relationships as normal relationships that could plausibly happen (Just as Asian-Americans have in the past several decades worked to be portrayed as normal people in entertainment).

Anyways, why shouldn't Bioware cater to a vocal minority? They've been listening to the Blasto, Garrus, Tali, and Conrad fans

[Chun Hei]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Obviously your memory is very poor. Replay Samara's loyalty mission again.

[Chun Hei]

lietk12 wrote...

Anyways, why shouldn't Bioware cater to a vocal minority? They've been listening to the Blasto, Garrus, Tali, and Conrad fans

Fan service is a bad thing. Game companies should never listen to what their fans want. It ruins immersion.

[Chun Hei]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...
You took the words right outta my mouth.

I am actually happy that the thread has not been shut down. Fans should be allowed to argue. It seems overreacting to me for Bioware to say we cannot argue about s/s romance even in our s/s support thread. Just do not feed the trolls.

[MACharlie1]

Chun Hei wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Obviously your memory is very poor. Replay Samara's loyalty mission again.

Hm. So is mine apparently. Clarification?  I don't remember anyone being homophobic. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:45 .

[Abispa]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Obviously your memory is very poor. Replay Samara's loyalty mission again.

Hm. So is mine apparently. Clarification?  I don't remember anyone being homophobic. 

Listen to Nef's log entries. "Am I a FREAK? Morinth is a WOMAN like ME..."

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Obviously your memory is very poor. Replay Samara's loyalty mission again.

Hm. So is mine apparently. Clarification?  I don't remember anyone being homophobic. 

Listen to Nef's log entries. "Am I a FREAK? Morinth is a WOMAN like ME..."

I mean really. 

The fact that she's an alien is nothing compared to the fact that they're both chicks. OH noes. 

[MACharlie1]

Abispa wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

If people are using realism as an excuse for Bi in ME then shouldn't there be some homophobics as well? Or is it too insulting?

Obviously your memory is very poor. Replay Samara's loyalty mission again.

Hm. So is mine apparently. Clarification?  I don't remember anyone being homophobic. 

Listen to Nef's log entries. "Am I a FREAK? Morinth is a WOMAN like ME..."

Ah, yes. Now I remember. Appreciated. 

[Abispa]

EDIT: Forget it. Brain lock.

Modifié par Abispa, 16 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[Art3m]

No, thanks. OP, take your idea back, please.

[pablodurando]

There are a few characters in my subjective view that are open enough to be bi. Tali, Jack, Mordin, and Kaidan. Their sexuality seems to be the most up in the air to me, and adding those with maybe 1 or 2 new bi characters wouldn't be that bad IMHO.