587 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

It's deliberate, they said that in dev interviews. They decided they could either make a first person protagonist or they had to impose things on players they didn't want to. Whether Corvo has an angry or calm tone, for instance, is up to the player. And by the Void we don't need any more dialogue wheels.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[mr_afk]

I suppose the lack of background info/personality for corvo means that people can invent their own version of him in their minds, but since the storyline is pretty much linear, some sort of character development/reaction to the stuff going on could help reduce the feeling of been a silent observer but more of an actual participant.

I think a bit of background information in the introduction to develop the empress's character and/or corvo's relationship with her could make her death a little more meaningful, creating a better sense of revenge/personal motive for going on the missions (since a lot of the assassination targets are linked with her death).

Without that context he becomes a little bit too robotic, simply carrying out orders..

[brettc893]

Well, I'm totally done with this game.

7.5/10

Fun, but ultimately forgettable and far too short.

That is all.

[Addai]

mr_afk wrote...

Without that context he becomes a little bit too robotic, simply carrying out orders..

I don't know how you could miss Corvo's closeness to the empress and Emily from the opener.  The very first lines you hear in the game are the empress saying "If there was anyone else I could send... When you are near, my heart is at peace... Emily and I will count the days until your return."  How do you not hear the implications there?  Then Emily running into his arms and kissing his cheek, saying (if you click on her), "Corvo, if you won't marry my mother, will you marry me?"  All that just in the prologue.  That's even without the motive provided by the evil dudes torturing him and trying to frame him and cut his head off.

Suffice to say I don't understand that criticism at all.   But I suppose I connected early to Corvo, that was one of my main draws to the game, from the debut trailer.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 novembre 2012 - 07:26 .

[TobiTobsen]

Addai67 wrote...

mr_afk wrote...

Without that context he becomes a little bit too robotic, simply carrying out orders..

I don't know how you could miss Corvo's closeness to the empress and Emily from the opener.  The very first lines you hear in the game are the empress saying "If there was anyone else I could send... When you are near, my heart is at peace... Emily and I will count the days until your return."  How do you not hear the implications there?  Then Emily running into his arms and kissing his cheek, saying (if you click on her), "Corvo, if you won't marry my mother, will you marry me?"  All that just in the prologue.  That's even without the motive provided by the evil dudes torturing him and trying to frame him and cut his head off.

Suffice to say I don't understand that criticism at all.   But I suppose I connected early to Corvo, that was one of my main draws to the game, from the debut trailer.

Word! No one shall stand between Corvo and Emily!

[mr_afk]

Addai67 wrote...

mr_afk wrote...

Without that context he becomes a little bit too robotic, simply carrying out orders..

I don't know how you could miss Corvo's closeness to the empress and Emily from the opener.  The very first lines you hear in the game are the empress saying "If there was anyone else I could send... When you are near, my heart is at peace... Emily and I will count the days until your return."  How do you not hear the implications there?  Then Emily running into his arms and kissing his cheek, saying (if you click on her), "Corvo, if you won't marry my mother, will you marry me?"  All that just in the prologue.  That's even without the motive provided by the evil dudes torturing him and trying to frame him and cut his head off.

Suffice to say I don't understand that criticism at all.   But I suppose I connected early to Corvo, that was one of my main draws to the game, from the debut trailer.

Well, it's more that while you can see Corvo's relationship with them from their perspective, you never get any signs of any reaction/inner turmoil from Corvo's side. I suppose you could see that he was close with Emily by the hugs etc, but without roleplaying/imagining what he's going through, he comes across as been remarkably calm/untroubled for someone who sees his 'love' get killed in front of him and gets framed for it, and not to mention his ready acceptance of some supernatural entity popping up and granting him special powers.

Basically, a bit of a backstory (to help with the roleplaying) or even some sort of dialogue options questioning his orders/having qualms about a mission could help convey what Corvo's thoughts about the whole situation. I don't know about you, but 'royal protector' isn't synonymous with 'assassin'; So some sort of reaction to been asked to kill people could be nice. With a storyline that's almost linear, it's basically the equivalent of an interactive movie - and a completely emotionless/silent character doesn't exactly make for the best protagonist.

But that said, I didn't really have that much of a problem with it (since I could just imagine what he was going through), and I suppose the emphasis seems to be more on gameplay rather than on a riveting story/character relationship simulator.

[Overdosing]

Loved the game. That is all.

[Addai]

mr_afk wrote...

Well, it's more that while you can see Corvo's relationship with them from their perspective, you never get any signs of any reaction/inner turmoil from Corvo's side. I suppose you could see that he was close with Emily by the hugs etc, but without roleplaying/imagining what he's going through, he comes across as been remarkably calm/untroubled for someone who sees his 'love' get killed in front of him and gets framed for it, and not to mention his ready acceptance of some supernatural entity popping up and granting him special powers.

Aren't you supposed to roleplay/ imagine?  Isn't that what playing a game is?  *confused*

Basically, a bit of a backstory (to help with the roleplaying) or even some sort of dialogue options questioning his orders/having qualms about a mission could help convey what Corvo's thoughts about the whole situation. I don't know about you, but 'royal protector' isn't synonymous with 'assassin'; So some sort of reaction to been asked to kill people could be nice. With a storyline that's almost linear, it's basically the equivalent of an interactive movie - and a completely emotionless/silent character doesn't exactly make for the best protagonist.

What you're asking for would be an interactive movie.  This is a game that allows for dynamic immersion.  There are hardly any of those made, can't we have just ONE?

Sorry for shouting, but I'm so thrilled that Arkane gets it, that it is frustrating to see them criticized for making the kind of game I want to play when they did it so well and almost no one else even attempts it.

But that said, I didn't really have that much of a problem with it (since I could just imagine what he was going through), and I suppose the emphasis seems to be more on gameplay rather than on a riveting story/character relationship simulator.

They definitely emphasize story, but it is contextual and visual storytelling with a first person protagonist.  Not everyone's cup of tea, granted.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[mr_afk]

Addai67 wrote...
Aren't you supposed to roleplay/ imagine?  Isn't that what playing a game is?  *confused*

I would say it depends on the game, with certain games definitely requiring an element of roleplaying/imagination, and others not so much. Generally speaking, the games which are created for 'roleplaying' are RPGs - with immersion coming from the deep storyline and the associated character development and decision making. It might just be me, but in order to really 'roleplay' a character, I like to be involved in either their creation/backstory or at least their decision making.


So I wouldn't really consider the majority of action-adventure games (or even JRPGs for that matter) to require 'roleplaying', since the characters and storyline are completely set. The reason why I compared action-adventure games to interactive movies is because that is what the majority of them are - make a compilation of the cutscenes with a bit of gameplay inbetween and you pretty much have a movie, e.g. the fan-made uncharted movies (which were actually pretty good).

Dishonored is an action-adventure game, not an RPG, but it does have rpg elements - namely, the ability to upgrade abilities/powers and to make moral choices (lethal/nonlethal). This slight hybridisation of genres means that it's hard to specifically say whether it would be better off giving Corvo more of a backstory/personality or leaving it up to the player; All I was suggesting was that since it has the same linearity of action-adventure games, the lack of Corvo's perspective on things makes him seem slightly robotic/emotionless.

If they were to give Corvo more of a personality (e.g. a voiced character with cutscenes etc) they could have created much greater emotional depth to the storyline, but at the cost of making the game feel more linear, (not that it doesn't already feel linear, getting sent off to missions without any say in the matter). Flashbacks to happier days, a voice-over of him recalling the Empress's words, basically any sort of emotional response to his situation - they would make him seem more human and could make the storyline feel more personal.

When I listen to the lyrics of 'honor for all', the dishonored end credits song, I can imagine all these things - and it makes the game feel so much deeper. 


Haha anyway, I'm not trying to disparage the game - they definitely did a great job with everything - It's just that I don't think limiting Corvo and the Empress's relationship subplot to various dialogues/notes is necessary to maintain any 'dynamic immersion'.

Modifié par mr_afk, 07 novembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Addai]

The cool thing about Dishonored is that it defies easy categorization. Why do we even need to categorize? To me it's as much or more an RPG in some respects than some "action RPGs" I've played. Please tell me you're not saying you wanted it to be a JRPG?

Whatever- the developers designed the game that way on purpose. They considered imposing a personality and voice on Corvo and rejected the idea. I guess it's up to each player whether they prefer that or some other design style.

[OdanUrr]

I still think Dishonored could've included more dialogue lines for Corvo, he has like two or three in the entire game. There are some scenes where it seems like a must, for instance, when he gets accused of murdering the Empress. At that time I wanted to protest my innocence vehemently and scowled when the game took that option away from me. There are other times like when you speak with the Outsider or, rather, the Outsider speaks to you, and with Emily after you rescue her (the first time).

[mr_afk]

Yeah, categorisation becomes a little pointless when you have hybrid games, especially since action-adventure can mean pretty much anything anyway. But it's just a way to group similar games together - for example, how reviewers often compare dishonoured to a mix of thief and bioshock.

And I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying - By categorising it as an action adventure I'm not saying that I want it to be a JRPG or more 'movie-like', but rather that they could have perhaps borrowed a few more elements from the action adventure genre and worked a bit more on the story-telling side of things, since the storyline is pretty much pre-set. Either that or become more rpg-like with expanded choices/consequences (which is what I would actually prefer).

The story is already set in what several reviewers have criticised as a rather generic plot. By simply telling a story well, the most basic plot can become amazing. This would probably require greater character development for the majority of the game's villans and perhaps more importantly, some sort of character development for Corvo - who is otherwise just a stealthy killing/choking machine with special powers.

My general idea in this regards was to improve/expand on the plotline around Corvo and the Empress's relationship, but obviously you deem that as unnecessary/detrimental to the game design.

In the end of the day, what's done is done, and the game is still undoubtedly good regardless of whether Corvo has a personality/voice or is completely silent.

Modifié par mr_afk, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:30 .

[Addai]

OdanUrr wrote...

I still think Dishonored could've included more dialogue lines for Corvo, he has like two or three in the entire game. There are some scenes where it seems like a must, for instance, when he gets accused of murdering the Empress. At that time I wanted to protest my innocence vehemently and scowled when the game took that option away from me. There are other times like when you speak with the Outsider or, rather, the Outsider speaks to you, and with Emily after you rescue her (the first time).

What difference would it have made to protest his innocence?  Like they were going to believe him?  What does that add to Corvo's character?

I suppose I just have to deal with the fact that gamers can't get enough of cutscenes. 

Modifié par Addai67, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[slimgrin]

Addai67 wrote...

The cool thing about Dishonored is that it defies easy categorization. Why do we even need to categorize? To me it's as much or more an RPG in some respects than some "action RPGs" I've played. Please tell me you're not saying you wanted it to be a JRPG?

Whatever- the developers designed the game that way on purpose. They considered imposing a personality and voice on Corvo and rejected the idea. I guess it's up to each player whether they prefer that or some other design style.

But he's underdeveloped, no matter how you slice it. You can still keep the protagonist silent while fleshing out history, personality, character interaction, etc. I don't necessarily want to imagine this in an action/stealth game. I guess I'm impressed enough with Dishonored I want Arkane's next effort to be a full blooded RPG.

[Addai]

slimgrin wrote...

But he's underdeveloped, no matter how you slice it. You can still keep the protagonist silent while fleshing out history, personality, character interaction, etc. I don't necessarily want to imagine this in an action/stealth game. I guess I'm impressed enough with Dishonored I want Arkane's next effort to be a full blooded RPG.

That implies that they set out to make a developed character and failed to do so.  As I said, they deliberately decided to make Corvo more of a blank slate, despite the fact that it's not a "create your own character" game.

And I like it that way, whether they make the next a fixed character or have a CC.

[OdanUrr]

Addai67 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

I still think Dishonored could've included more dialogue lines for Corvo, he has like two or three in the entire game. There are some scenes where it seems like a must, for instance, when he gets accused of murdering the Empress. At that time I wanted to protest my innocence vehemently and scowled when the game took that option away from me. There are other times like when you speak with the Outsider or, rather, the Outsider speaks to you, and with Emily after you rescue her (the first time).

What difference would it have made to protest his innocence?  Like they were going to believe him?  What does that add to Corvo's character?

I suppose I just have to deal with the fact that gamers can't get enough of cutscenes. 

No difference to the progression of the story but all the difference to me. Besides, I wasn't talking about a cutscene, simply dialogue.

[Morroian]

slimgrin wrote...

But he's underdeveloped, no matter how you slice it. You can still keep the protagonist silent while fleshing out history, personality, character interaction, etc. I don't necessarily want to imagine this in an action/stealth game. I guess I'm impressed enough with Dishonored I want Arkane's next effort to be a full blooded RPG.

They don't want to make RPGs, IIRC they feel that they can craft stories with greater impact by not having to include the multiple options RPGs require.

[slimgrin]

Morroian wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

But he's underdeveloped, no matter how you slice it. You can still keep the protagonist silent while fleshing out history, personality, character interaction, etc. I don't necessarily want to imagine this in an action/stealth game. I guess I'm impressed enough with Dishonored I want Arkane's next effort to be a full blooded RPG.

They don't want to make RPGs, IIRC they feel that they can craft stories with greater impact by not having to include the multiple options RPGs require.

Hmm. Then they have an uphill battle before them because the writing is not the highlight of Dishonored. Strong enough to carry the game, not as well written as most RPG's. 

[Il Divo]

slimgrin wrote...

Morroian wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

But he's underdeveloped, no matter how you slice it. You can still keep the protagonist silent while fleshing out history, personality, character interaction, etc. I don't necessarily want to imagine this in an action/stealth game. I guess I'm impressed enough with Dishonored I want Arkane's next effort to be a full blooded RPG.

They don't want to make RPGs, IIRC they feel that they can craft stories with greater impact by not having to include the multiple options RPGs require.

Hmm. Then they have an uphill battle before them because the writing is not the highlight of Dishonored. Strong enough to carry the game, not as well written as most RPG's. 

I wouldn't even say it was that strong. The main narrative was about as bland as it gets. In terms of both characters and plot, Bioshock was far superior, though I prefer Dishonored's setting and gameplay.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Addai]

Morroian wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

But he's underdeveloped, no matter how you slice it. You can still keep the protagonist silent while fleshing out history, personality, character interaction, etc. I don't necessarily want to imagine this in an action/stealth game. I guess I'm impressed enough with Dishonored I want Arkane's next effort to be a full blooded RPG.

They don't want to make RPGs, IIRC they feel that they can craft stories with greater impact by not having to include the multiple options RPGs require.

They do like RPGs, and have described Dishonored as being a mixture of RPG, action and stealth.  The game is very heavy on player choice in how you approach levels.  But yeah, don't look for them to make an open world RPG.  I hope they don't, because that's not where their inspiration comes from.  Instead of wishing their games were something else, I appreciate it for what it is and really would only like to see more of it, and a more nuanced political story.

[Addai]

An interesting take on the Heart as narrative and gameplay device.

[Gibb_Shepard]

About halfway through the game. It's got spectacular gameplay. Would have preferred it if they didn't make Corvo like Gordan Freeman; in that there is nothing there to develop for the player, nor is anything developed by the writers. But the writing as a whole is pretty poor, so the lack of substantial characterization isn't too missed.

[slimgrin]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

About halfway through the game. It's got spectacular gameplay. Would have preferred it if they didn't make Corvo like Gordan Freeman; in that there is nothing there to develop for the player, nor is anything developed by the writers. But the writing as a whole is pretty poor, so the lack of substantial characterization isn't too missed.

I wish Skyrim played like this game. I'm critical of melee and navigation in first person. Dishonored is easily the best effort I've seen.  

[Krusty84]

slimgrin wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

About halfway through the game. It's got spectacular gameplay. Would have preferred it if they didn't make Corvo like Gordan Freeman; in that there is nothing there to develop for the player, nor is anything developed by the writers. But the writing as a whole is pretty poor, so the lack of substantial characterization isn't too missed.

I wish Skyrim played like this game. I'm critical of melee and navigation in first person. Dishonored is easily the best effort I've seen.  

Try their previous game: Arx Fatalis(rpg), Dark Messiah(action rpg), both on steam or gog.

Modifié par Krusty84, 09 novembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Addai]

This thread doesn't have enough art.