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Chantry Teaching on Magic


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#26
Marduksdragon

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

what have I stumbled into?


Discussion about no one correcting Anders about his claims regarding the circles and if that means his claims are true (I don't think so but Rif disagrees. I'd also like to point out that Anders says "I've never met a mage that wanted to rule over anyone." Yet he could have already met Idunna and Tahrone by then and both of them say they want mages to rule over everyone in a new Imperium. It's just... tear your hair out bad writing or Varric making stuff up on the fly because I refuse to believe that Anders -even possessed- is that nuts.)--- and then about the Templars by and large being or not being douchebag rapists--- which devolved into a question on Cullen imparticular being dangerous--- and if he was a source of humor or fear in the Fereldan Circle.

Since the mages laugh at Cullen and think it's amusing that he constantly sings the female mage's praises and is in love with her before Broken Circle-- I'd say the level of fear for the Templars abusing mages in the Fereldan Circle was pretty minimal. Afterwards, we hear in Witchhunt, he's creepy. I say that's to be expected considering what he went through (if you've ever seen someone have a flashback of a traumatic event or had one yourself-- or tried to control either one you know what I'm talking about)-- but Rif says it's proof he was always a psychopath-- which is why I eventually located that quote I posted up there, that even Cheryl says that it was a decline brought on through Broken Circle (one that they've now retconned into a recovery-- which I'm all for. Just because he's creepy doesn't mean Cullen needs to be a dirtbag. Maker knows there's enough of those running around Thedas already.).

And hey, I learned something new so not all was lost by digression--- I now
know Sheryl is responsible for Cullen (I'd read some of Gaider's
comments before and was under the impression he was) and that she says
that men who end up being Templars are oppressed. I will take the somewhat creepy/stalkery that comes along with that because creepy does not mean evil. Courtly Love borders on stalkery at times and so by that notion Dante Alighieri was Beatrice Portinari's stalker for years. I can live with that.

#27
dragonflight288

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I love that scene. Can't decide if I prefer Sten giving him cookies or not though.

EDIT: In response to Morrigan's scene.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:35 .


#28
Macropodmum

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I have to say my first playthrough was as a circle mage aand I never thought at any time that Cullen was creepy. Even in DA2 I still think his intentions were good if not just a tad coloured by his experience at the tower, but in the end he stood against Meredith seeing her for the loony she was.

#29
Harid

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I played a female circle mage and I didn't find Cullen creepy either. . .I always figured it was Gaider just projecting his ideas on the character more than anything else.

They seemingly like to make flawed (with daddy issues) people for your companions. . .and it's getting a little old for me.

I'd like to see them mix it up a bit.

#30
Torax

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Macropodmum wrote...

I have to say my first playthrough was as a circle mage aand I never thought at any time that Cullen was creepy. Even in DA2 I still think his intentions were good if not just a tad coloured by his experience at the tower, but in the end he stood against Meredith seeing her for the loony she was.


I didn't find anything about Cullen as creepy either. I find though many on the forums seem to to look at specific things in these extremes. Especially in regards to Templars vs. Mages. Exception to that is really that the some who hate the Templars seem to look for the worst in far too much of it. So the Templars are evil manipulative perverts or something. Most seemed very well adjusted. There was one that even gave Wynne treats as a child and even let her sit on his shoulder so she could look over a wall as they were traveling to the Tower. Somehow i think some would read that some twisted pedophile just for his acts of kindness...

#31
Marduksdragon

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Tidra wrote...

Lol, I'm sorry but Anders questioning Aveline about...

Anders: So you married a templar, huh?
Aveline: What of it?
Anders: Are they all as dirty as they seem?
Aveline: What?
Anders: Did he ever ask you to play “the naughty mage and the hapless recruit?” Maybe the “secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?”
Aveline: That's disgusting!
Anders: I hear it's quite popular.

Is just really funny to me, because I can totally see it being true. Come on, someone playing a "naughty mage" for a Templar? Oh man, this reminds me of that one scene between Morrigan and the Templar on the docks. Probably the greatest thing ever.



That guy was totally hoping to have a little naughty mage fun-time. Until Morrigan scared him completely senseless. Ohhh, Morrigan. <3


Ah yeah. Poor addled Carroll. (Talk to Enchanter Godwin about him sometime)  If you take Leliana you get to hear him talk about Greagoir frowning on even talking about relations with womenfolk.

I'm not saying the question of roleplay is a bad question (or that the idea isn't funny out of context)-- just that the way it was asked to the person it was asked to was rude and heartless if I shift that conversation to RL--- and that Aveline had every right not to want to talk to Anders about Templars in any situation after that-- let alone bothering to correct him every time she disagreed with what he was saying. That's not even her style.

#32
Torax

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I read Aveline as the sort who would just bring up her disagreement on a subject once and drop it at that. So she'd point out to Merrill what she disagrees with and leave it there. Unlike Anders who instead just tries to bring up subjects to people and gets upset if they don't agree with him. Or he was just looking for an argument so it's say "pick on the rogue" time.

#33
Marduksdragon

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Torax wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I have to say my first playthrough was as a circle mage aand I never thought at any time that Cullen was creepy. Even in DA2 I still think his intentions were good if not just a tad coloured by his experience at the tower, but in the end he stood against Meredith seeing her for the loony she was.


I didn't find anything about Cullen as creepy either. I find though many on the forums seem to to look at specific things in these extremes. Especially in regards to Templars vs. Mages. Exception to that is really that the some who hate the Templars seem to look for the worst in far too much of it. So the Templars are evil manipulative perverts or something. Most seemed very well adjusted. There was one that even gave Wynne treats as a child and even let her sit on his shoulder so she could look over a wall as they were traveling to the Tower. Somehow i think some would read that some twisted pedophile just for his acts of kindness...


If you've ever seen the movie the Fisher King, pre-BC Cullen strikes me as the Perry-for-love-of-Lidia  kind of creepy. It's not a bad creepy at all. It's a very devoted, gentle kind of creepy.

Clip of Perry Stalking Lidia:


Edit-- Perry declares his love to Lidia:

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 18 juillet 2011 - 04:03 .


#34
Rifneno

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Marduksdragon wrote...



Second banter. Sounds at least antagonistic to me. In fact all of their banter is increasingly antagonistic.

Listening to a Templar about mages is not the same as listening to a mage about mages.


I just heard it the other day, and I don't find it the least bit antagonistic. Lots of guys have that kind of sense of humor. I have a few friends whom our entire friendship is basically about cracking jokes at each other's expense. Now compare to the tone of voice when he has in the banter where he complains her term as captain hasn't been mage-friendly. That was a hostile tone from a serious Anders.

You're right... listening to a templar is far, far better. Templars are actually trained to fight mages. It would be like if a Russian asked you how to fight Americans (or whatever country you're from if not America). Do you think you could give a better answer than a KBG agent? I know I couldn't. Either Aveline is a ****** (not ruling that out), or she was being just baiting him herself.

Torax wrote...

atm it seems people disagree about Anders' tone when he was being a ****** to Aveline. Better question is which companion he isn't a ****** to from Act 2 on? lol

Trick Question. He's only not a ****** if you don't take him with you  :P


I'll take his being a ****** to people who support evil to people are a ****** because you give them a shield and that obviously must mean you're trying to replace her dead husband because he had a shield. Yeah, Aveline is a massive ****. Frankly I'd leave her self-righteous ass in the Blightlands given the choice.

Marduksdragon wrote...

(I don't think so but Rif disagrees. I'd also like to point out that Anders says "I've never met a mage that wanted to rule over anyone." Yet he could have already met Idunna and Tahrone by then and both of them say they want mages to rule over everyone in a new Imperium. It's just... tear your hair out bad writing


Reminds me of when people would hate on Nalia because the quest to reclaim her keep would trigger her generic "dungeon" dialogue, which was a complaint about being there. I had no idea we'd reached a point where AI was flawless! :?

and then about the Templars by and large being or not being douchebag rapists--- which devolved into a question on Cullen imparticular being dangerous--- and if he was a source of humor or fear in the Fereldan Circle.


I never said they didn't find him funny. Kids at Columbine thought the Trenchcoat Mafia was funny too. You know, until they came in and murdered a bunch of people. Just like Cullen before the retcon!

I find Cullen a fascinating case. All my life I've heard women complain about how men are taken in by a pretty face... now we see Cullen, would-be sexual predator, deranged killer, and supporter of the Tranquil Solution, get boatloads of support especially from the female fans, which I'm sure has nothing to do his "white knight" gimmick and looks/voice that his fan thread is full of swooning over.

one that they've now retconned into a recovery-- which I'm all for


Sadly, never happened outside of your interpretations.

I will take the somewhat creepy/stalkery that comes along with that because creepy does not mean evil. Courtly Love borders on stalkery at times and so by that notion Dante Alighieri was Beatrice Portinari's stalker for years. I can live with that.


Jesus. Clearly you've never had a stalker. It's not some grand romance that ends with an old woman tossing a giant diamond into the ocean. I was friends with a girl that had one. She was terrified. And believe me, she had reason to be.

Torax wrote...

Exception to that is really that the some who hate the Templars seem to look for the worst in far too much of it. So the Templars are evil manipulative perverts or something.


Well, at least you're not telling lies about how you're "totally pro-mage!" to try and give your pro-templar posts some false credibility anymore. So kudos for that. I guess.

#35
Marduksdragon

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Rifneno wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...



Second banter. Sounds at least antagonistic to me. In fact all of their banter is increasingly antagonistic.

Listening to a Templar about mages is not the same as listening to a mage about mages.


I just heard it the other day, and I don't find it the least bit antagonistic. Lots of guys have that kind of sense of humor. I have a few friends whom our entire friendship is basically about cracking jokes at each other's expense. Now compare to the tone of voice when he has in the banter where he complains her term as captain hasn't been mage-friendly. That was a hostile tone from a serious Anders.

You're right... listening to a templar is far, far better. Templars are actually trained to fight mages. It would be like if a Russian asked you how to fight Americans (or whatever country you're from if not America). Do you think you could give a better answer than a KBG agent? I know I couldn't. Either Aveline is a ****** (not ruling that out), or she was being just baiting him herself.

Torax wrote...

atm it seems people disagree about Anders' tone when he was being a ****** to Aveline. Better question is which companion he isn't a ****** to from Act 2 on? lol

Trick Question. He's only not a ****** if you don't take him with you  :P


I'll take his being a ****** to people who support evil to people are a ****** because you give them a shield and that obviously must mean you're trying to replace her dead husband because he had a shield. Yeah, Aveline is a massive ****. Frankly I'd leave her self-righteous ass in the Blightlands given the choice.

Marduksdragon wrote...

(I don't think so but Rif disagrees. I'd also like to point out that Anders says "I've never met a mage that wanted to rule over anyone." Yet he could have already met Idunna and Tahrone by then and both of them say they want mages to rule over everyone in a new Imperium. It's just... tear your hair out bad writing


Reminds me of when people would hate on Nalia because the quest to reclaim her keep would trigger her generic "dungeon" dialogue, which was a complaint about being there. I had no idea we'd reached a point where AI was flawless! :?

and then about the Templars by and large being or not being douchebag rapists--- which devolved into a question on Cullen imparticular being dangerous--- and if he was a source of humor or fear in the Fereldan Circle.


I never said they didn't find him funny. Kids at Columbine thought the Trenchcoat Mafia was funny too. You know, until they came in and murdered a bunch of people. Just like Cullen before the retcon!

I find Cullen a fascinating case. All my life I've heard women complain about how men are taken in by a pretty face... now we see Cullen, would-be sexual predator, deranged killer, and supporter of the Tranquil Solution, get boatloads of support especially from the female fans, which I'm sure has nothing to do his "white knight" gimmick and looks/voice that his fan thread is full of swooning over.

one that they've now retconned into a recovery-- which I'm all for


Sadly, never happened outside of your interpretations.

I will take the somewhat creepy/stalkery that comes along with that because creepy does not mean evil. Courtly Love borders on stalkery at times and so by that notion Dante Alighieri was Beatrice Portinari's stalker for years. I can live with that.


Jesus. Clearly you've never had a stalker. It's not some grand romance that ends with an old woman tossing a giant diamond into the ocean. I was friends with a girl that had one. She was terrified. And believe me, she had reason to be.

Torax wrote...

Exception to that is really that the some who hate the Templars seem to look for the worst in far too much of it. So the Templars are evil manipulative perverts or something.


Well, at least you're not telling lies about how you're "totally pro-mage!" to try and give your pro-templar posts some false credibility anymore. So kudos for that. I guess.


Aveline is not his friend. Nor does he make any great pains to be hers. In that banter you mentioned his tone is hotly accusatory-- so of course he sounds hostile.

Talking to a regular American instead of a KGB agent may give you ideas into guerilla tactics an average member of that population might get up to or the general personality of an American person--- which is important when trying to prepare for trouble or cricumvent it at the source. It's called reconnaissance. It's a totally different viewpoint and it's a bad comparison with a mage because there's a difference between fighting the magic and being the magic. A Templar, for all his lyrium use and special abilities, has never been the magic.

As far as Wesley's shield --though not directed at me-- Hawke knows Aveline keeps it for sentimental reasons by that time. It's completely different.

Hawke doesn't even get a chance to go "There, Anders. Two mages who want to rule everyone. You've met them now." After the fact. That is bad writing-- not just fouled AI. I would have loved to have had that argument with Anders and seen how the character broke that down to be harmonious with his views. Or if he just Vengeanced me for questioning him.

Those children were not physically and mentally tortured for weeks on end by demons and blood mages. They were not held prisoner without food and water or the drugs they need to stay sane. Cullen before has little relation to Cullen after until DA2. I would have hunted Cullen down and put sword to him if there'd been a DLC (or the events of DA2) that upheld the epilogue of DAO--- and still felt awful about it. Having sympathy and caring for a character doesn't magically mean I agree with everything they do or say-- or exclude them from punishment.
*fans self* I totally need Cullen riding to my rescue on his nonexistant horse. :whistle: I've been waiting all my life for a spectacularly damaged imaginary slave to come save me from imaginary problems--- WHEN HE CAN'T EVEN SAVE HIMSELF IN GAME. No. That would be retarded. He is a deeply flawed, human character that I find interesting. I do think he's cute (I miss his mole...) but I think a lot of the DA males are cute. This hasn't been a problem with killing them when necessary or even spilling over into liking them. Cailan is adorable, charming, has a good voice and I hate him. Also I liked Anders (and Justice) and I still killed him when I felt it became necessary. --- far as the Tranquil solution, that was never Cullen's plan. He tells you there are arguments for it being applied more widely in a tone that suggests he knows reasons for it to--- and he does-- look what happened at Kinloch Hold. Does it make him right for reacting with a human prejudice towards people that hurt him terribly? No. Absolutely not. It does, however, make his attempts at mercy and willingness to watch and not kill potential blood mages even more amazing because he is overcoming this prejudice every time.

It did happen. We watched it happen. Cullen is not bonkers or roaming the countryside on a personal crusade or Knight-Commander in place of Greagoir. He's recovering and started to feel kindly towards the mages again (which you can choose to encourage or not). Even if you don't, he will still stand up for the pleading mages and still fight Meredith--- so at least part of that is still all him.

Actually, you know not of what you speak in my case. The most you could say is that my threshold for being terrified is much higher than your friend likely because I've lived through much worse events than stalking. I have been stalked before by several different people (in my mother's words, I attract creeps. Most of them are only a danger to themselves, thankfully). Of them, only one was the stabbity kind and he went to jail. The others were just lonely. Two became friends when confronted. -- and I hate Titanic. I was dragged to the theatre by my family and spent most of the movie gagging and making excuses that I had to go to the bathroom so I could wander the lobby.

Torax just doesn't draw the lines where you do in his support of the Mages. I don't see any reason to be terse with him over it in text even if he annoys you while you read his comments- it doesn't help your point and it won't change his mind.

#36
Rifneno

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Marduksdragon wrote...

Aveline is not his friend. Nor does he make any great pains to be hers. In that banter you mentioned his tone is hotly accusatory-- so of course he sounds hostile.


Which is different. Somehow.

Talking to a regular American instead of a KGB agent may give you ideas into guerilla tactics an average member of that population might get up to or the general personality of an American person--- which is important when trying to prepare for trouble or cricumvent it at the source. It's called reconnaissance. It's a totally different viewpoint and it's a bad comparison with a mage because there's a difference between fighting the magic and being the magic. A Templar, for all his lyrium use and special abilities, has never been the magic.


So she expected to get some incredible insight into mages that has escaped the Chantry's thousand year rule? Nevermind the fact that Anders is a spirit healer and 99.99% of the troublemaker mages are blood mages, just that she thinks a random mage hanging around Hawke has some noteworthy insight that has escaped the Chantry's notice through many nations and hundreds of years... just no.

As far as Wesley's shield --though not directed at me-- Hawke knows Aveline keeps it for sentimental reasons by that time. It's completely different.


She's a giant ball of crazy and that outburst made me want to feed her to a kraken.

Hawke doesn't even get a chance to go "There, Anders. Two mages who want to rule everyone. You've met them now." After the fact. That is bad writing-- not just fouled AI. I would have loved to have had that argument with Anders and seen how the character broke that down to be harmonious with his views. Or if he just Vengeanced me for questioning him.


I imagine he'd point out that Idunna claimed she didn't know what Tarohne was doing and Tarohne herself was almost certainly an abomination. Regardless, if you expect there to be a dialogue branch for every feasible response in every feasible situation, I hope you're willing to pay another $100 for the hundreds of hours of extra voice acting and have a few hundred gigs of free space to put it on.

Those children were not physically and mentally tortured for weeks on end by demons and blood mages. They were not held prisoner without food and water or the drugs they need to stay sane. Cullen before has little relation to Cullen after until DA2. I would have hunted Cullen down and put sword to him if there'd been a DLC (or the events of DA2) that upheld the epilogue of DAO--- and still felt awful about it. Having sympathy and caring for a character doesn't magically mean I agree with everything they do or say-- or exclude them from punishment.


Huh? Sorry, I dozed off while we were making up excuses for the deranged killer. Are we back to demonizing Anders for a joke yet?

*fans self* I totally need Cullen riding to my rescue on his nonexistant horse. :whistle: I've been waiting all my life for a spectacularly damaged imaginary slave to come save me from imaginary problems--- WHEN HE CAN'T EVEN SAVE HIMSELF IN GAME. No. That would be retarded. He is a deeply flawed, human character that I find interesting.


Oh God, we're back to the slave thing... :sick:

I do think he's cute (I miss his mole...) but I think a lot of the DA males are cute. This hasn't been a problem with killing them when necessary or even spilling over into liking them. Cailan is adorable, charming, has a good voice and I hate him. Also I liked Anders (and Justice) and I still killed him when I felt it became necessary. --- far as the Tranquil solution, that was never Cullen's plan. He tells you there are arguments for it being applied more widely in a tone that suggests he knows reasons for it to--- and he does-- look what happened at Kinloch Hold. Does it make him right for reacting with a human prejudice towards people that hurt him terribly? No. Absolutely not. It does, however, make his attempts at mercy and willingness to watch and not kill potential blood mages even more amazing because he is overcoming this prejudice every time.


I meant in general Cullen seems to be getting a free pass, not you specifically. That said, he supports the Tranquil Solution. A lot of things are left up to interpretation and there's judgment calls to be made. That's not one of them. You're hearing what you want to hear in his response. Walk up to some random person on the street and ask them if they support the holocaust and see if they take a swing at you or make a defensive "there's certainly a case to be made for killing millions of people..."

I can't believe you're playing devil's advocate (almost literally) to that while acting like Anders was trying to raise Wesley with necromancy and attack Aveline with her husband's rotting corpse because he made a joke.

It did happen. We watched it happen. Cullen is not bonkers or roaming the countryside on a personal crusade or Knight-Commander in place of Greagoir. He's recovering and started to feel kindly towards the mages again (which you can choose to encourage or not). Even if you don't, he will still stand up for the pleading mages and still fight Meredith--- so at least part of that is still all him.


Oh, we're giving out cookies for complaining a little bit while committing genocide now?

Actually, you know not of what you speak in my case. The most you could say is that my threshold for being terrified is much higher than your friend likely because I've lived through much worse events than stalking. I have been stalked before by several different people (in my mother's words, I attract creeps. Most of them are only a danger to themselves, thankfully). Of them, only one was the stabbity kind and he went to jail. The others were just lonely. Two became friends when confronted. -- and I hate Titanic. I was dragged to the theatre by my family and spent most of the movie gagging and making excuses that I had to go to the bathroom so I could wander the lobby.


Stalking doesn't mean the guy who picked the same classes as you at junior college. When your kid goes, "that's the guy who was standing outside the playground all day" and you find some half-dissolved tablets at the bottom of your drink, you're either terrified or a honey badger.

Torax just doesn't draw the lines where you do in his support of the Mages. I don't see any reason to be terse with him over it in text even if he annoys you while you read his comments- it doesn't help your point and it won't change his mind.


He quite did draw the lines. He just isn't doing it right now. He'd be involved in the templar-mage debates, always making pro-templar arguments. Which was fine. What wasn't fine was he'd always feel the need to mention he's "actually pro-mage" but he hates the way we stereotype all the templars as the same. I almost bought it, until a topic titled something along the lines of "every single mage in this game is a psychopath" where he came in and promptly fought the good pro-templar fight once again, under a banner of the stereotyping he claimed to hate. I'm not a big fan of pretending to be part of a group only so you can smear them.

#37
Gervaise

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Did I open a can of worms with my innocent enquiry!!!! Clearly the dialogue you get with characters varies according to whether you are on a friendship or rivalry basis and possibly whether you are romantically involved or not as well. The choices I have made thus far with my mage girl have been based entirely on what I have been told in game, plus a little bit of Origins knowledge thrown in because I guess she would have picked up something from her parents and the people around her in Ferelden. 
 
To date no one has said anything about rape but Anders did mention suicide. No one apart from Anders has mentioned sin with respect to magic, not even Fenris and if anyone was going to, apart from the numerous templars I meet in the game, I thought it would have been him. He does discuss the issue of sin with Anders with respect to suicide because Anders asks him why he didn’t just kill himself if being with his master was so bad and Fenris replies it would be a sin against the Maker. Anders asks rather surprised if he really believes in all that and Fenris replies he does. Now of course conversations come up quite randomly so there may be a companion conversation regarding magic as a sin, or depraved templars, or whatever, but I have not yet come across it. And I presume you have to side with Meredith at the beginning of Act 3 to get the story about her sister because I have not come across it.
 
Anyway I have just finished the game and it is clear from what transpires that the majority of Templars are sincere, do have a conscience and do follow the rules which does not means senseless slaughter or taking advantage of others.   To be fair to Meredith there are reasons why she had gone over the top – she has been driven insane. The true Meredith was contained in the note to Ser Alric when she would not support his mad cap and illegal scheme.   And given the number of abominations we encounter, blood mages and what Orsino does (and did with respect to my Mother), it would appear her paranoia did have a basis in fact.
 
Also if you want to talk about creepy – having a physical relationship with someone who tells you that his spirit companion does not approve, that’s weird. Hence the decision to opt for pure friendship with Anders and remain faithful to Fenris.   The ultimate reward being that after 3 years the mage hater finally admits that he has fallen in love with a mage. That in itself is something of a miracle, not hypocrisy even if he does seem to regard my mage as an exception that proves the rule. Also the one truly satisfying thing to come out of the whole story bearing in mind that in the end I become a focus for rebellion whether I want it or not.
 
 

#38
DPSSOC

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Rifneno wrote...
So she expected to get some incredible insight into mages that has escaped the Chantry's thousand year rule? Nevermind the fact that Anders is a spirit healer and 99.99% of the troublemaker mages are blood mages, just that she thinks a random mage hanging around Hawke has some noteworthy insight that has escaped the Chantry's notice through many nations and hundreds of years... just no.


Well Anders did escape the Circle on numerous occassions and no doubt had tricks to avoid capture.  Think about it Anders escaped seven times and managed to evade capture long enough to get from Lake Calenhad to Amaranthine (pretty much other side of the country). when the Templars had a magic bottle of "Find Me" to work with.  Learning from the guy who catches criminals is useful, but so is learning from the guy who regularly bests the guy who catches criminals.

#39
Marduksdragon

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I don't see why not. They had entire villages of defected Americans, Brits, etc, in Russia during the Cold War to educate the KGB and other agents. I don't see how Aveline trying to do recon on mages in general from a mage is ridiculous at all.

Idunna knew. She said, point blank, what was going on with Tahrone if questioned-- and that she was working towards the new imperium. Far as the rest-- then why bother bringing up Hawke and Co not challenging Anders about Ferelden? And yeah, I would have waited and paid extra for a better game. You bet your socks I would.

I'm not demonizing anyone. Anders did an extremely crappy thing to Aveline. Had I been present in RL and witnessed such a thing it would have been a "slap to the back of his head" moment. Far as "excuses"--- I don't even know what to say to that. Just like a lot of these things if you can't logically see the difference, I can't make you.

I was addressing my feelings towards the "White Knight" scenario-- since that's what you generalized. Since they are my feelings and extrapolations, I will say as I please. I believe he is a slave (like the rest of the Templars) and so it's even more ludicrous that the idea of being swept off my feet, white knight style, would be the reason I liked him.

He doesn't support it wholeheartedly or he wouldn't be offended at the idea that Harrowed mages were being tranquiled-  but that's neither here nor there since we're arguing about interpretations. --- as to the holocaust thing (you do love your Hitler/WW2 stuff). If you asked a Canaanite if it was alright, you might have gotten a different answer-- as their entire country was razed and occupied by the Jews anciently. It comes down to emotional involvement. Cullen was wronged by mages (like the Canaanites got their stuff taken, enslaved and their babies slain-- or completely slaughtered even down to their livestock if they simply tried to avoid a fight at all --as the case with Jericho--. I imagine a Canaanite would look on it as justice of a kind. ). He has a prejudice in place from a deeply traumatic event that makes him do and say idiotic things sometimes. That doesn't mean he doesn't show signs of overcoming this (which is damned amazing). I'm all for redemption and with damage like Cullen's that happens in small steps, not grand sweeping gestures.

We've been through the genocide other places. I don't look at it the same way you do and have given, at length, the reasons why. If you want to term that giving cookies for protests and don't care why I think the way I do, you're going to do it so it's kind of useless to say anything about it. That whole situation with the Rite is a nightmare and no matter who you side with, I believe everyone loses more than they know.

(Forgive me everyone else, this section is not going to be pleasant to read but I'm tired of having my personal experiences painted as nothing major by Rif.) I guess I'm a honey badger. Hell, I managed to beat the tar out of one of the men that raped me- put him in the hospital. The other one would have gone too, had I been able to break through the door fast enough to get at him after he ran. (Just one of the many reasons I said I react to all people in RL with suspicion.) Other people get scared in situations like that and I understand about a low threshold for terror. I get viciously angry and immediately start looking for a way to hurt people-- and that may be in large part due to having been tortured and kept a prisoner on a dog chain in my late teens by a family member. So no, you do not get to tell me I would be more properly afraid if it were a 'real' stalker and not, as you so flippantly suggested, some guy from junior college. I perform live various places for Faires or with a dance troupe, and I also do public readings at the library and a local coffee place-- and I will assure you right now that not everyone that follows you like a lost puppy wants to murder you or do harm to you (not that you should immediately trust everyone either). Sometimes they really want to talk to you but are intimidated (as with the two that ended up being friends. Both men are quite nice, just painfully shy and a tad obsessed, and once the ice was broken everything was fine and haven't really bothered me other than occasional friendly call ups to see how I am --if it's been awhile between events-- or showing up at a performance to cheer). Some fans can get really silly with their attention and if you call them on it, they're fine, and some of them are dangerous-- as with the guy the police interveined on. I could spend a lot of time hating all these people or being afraid to set foot outside my door, and I did when the events were still fresh, but frankly it's a waste of my time and it gives them power over me that I rather like having myself. Instead I pity the rapists and my family member -because they are sad excuses for human beings-, and in the case of the mentally ill stalking fan who thought I was his wife, I have compassion for him. There's no reason to walk around with gut full of hatred or fear if you have the option to do otherwise. And fans are fans and they are goofy. (I'm a fan, and look at me, I'm arguing with you largely over nonexistant people on a message board. Pretty goofy. Also somewhat creepy. :P )

I see Cullen as the F!mages biggest fan to start out with-- he's shy, clingy and dorky and sings her praises to anyone who'll listen. Broken Circle wrecks him as it would anyone in that situation and had the potential to make a monster out of him. That he wasn't possessed like his fellow Templars during his captivity just floors me. DA2 sets him back towards his original groove. Even Sheryl admitted to this kind of progression as I posted way above-- when she also said that to be Templars these men kind of had to be oppressed and slightly creepy. And if you can quote her about what would happen in the DAO epilogue aftermath if you tried to romance Cullen as the female mage, then I can quote her about the beginning of the relationship and the Templars. Quid Pro Quo.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 19 juillet 2011 - 02:02 .


#40
EmperorSahlertz

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Rifneno wrote...

Marduksdragon wrote...



Second banter. Sounds at least antagonistic to me. In fact all of their banter is increasingly antagonistic.

Listening to a Templar about mages is not the same as listening to a mage about mages.


I just heard it the other day, and I don't find it the least bit antagonistic. Lots of guys have that kind of sense of humor. I have a few friends whom our entire friendship is basically about cracking jokes at each other's expense. Now compare to the tone of voice when he has in the banter where he complains her term as captain hasn't been mage-friendly. That was a hostile tone from a serious Anders.

You're right... listening to a templar is far, far better. Templars are actually trained to fight mages. It would be like if a Russian asked you how to fight Americans (or whatever country you're from if not America). Do you think you could give a better answer than a KBG agent? I know I couldn't. Either Aveline is a ****** (not ruling that out), or she was being just baiting him herself.

I take it you and your friends are all such massive ****s, that you often make exceptionally bad taste jokes about eachothers' recently deceased spouses?

#41
Sons of Horus

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DPSSOC wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
So she expected to get some incredible insight into mages that has escaped the Chantry's thousand year rule? Nevermind the fact that Anders is a spirit healer and 99.99% of the troublemaker mages are blood mages, just that she thinks a random mage hanging around Hawke has some noteworthy insight that has escaped the Chantry's notice through many nations and hundreds of years... just no.


Well Anders did escape the Circle on numerous occassions and no doubt had tricks to avoid capture.  Think about it Anders escaped seven times and managed to evade capture long enough to get from Lake Calenhad to Amaranthine (pretty much other side of the country). when the Templars had a magic bottle of "Find Me" to work with.  Learning from the guy who catches criminals is useful, but so is learning from the guy who regularly bests the guy who catches criminals.


That always bugged me a bit. How can Anders make the claim that he knows about how most mages die in the Circle or the abuses when he’s running away from it the entire time. Ferelden Circle was pretty tame in the mage origin. Even Jowan and the mage warden or wynne don't make such a ridicules claims. Seems to me that Anders is full of it and is lying though his teeth to get people to sympathise with his cause.

#42
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Sons of Horus wrote...

That always bugged me a bit. How can Anders make the claim that he knows about how most mages die in the Circle or the abuses when he’s running away from it the entire time. Ferelden Circle was pretty tame in the mage origin. Even Jowan and the mage warden or wynne don't make such a ridicules claims. Seems to me that Anders is full of it and is lying though his teeth to get people to sympathise with his cause.


Ehh. Awakening Anders just wanted to be free to live life how he wanted. He wasn't a crusader for mage rights until Justice had a chat with him, and Justice's way of looking at things threw Anders' prejudices way out of proportion (I mean, come on, Justice initially growled at Anders for keeping Ser Pounce-a-Lot as a slave because he didn't understand the concept of pets. How do you think he's going to interpret mages being kept locked in a tower?).

#43
DPSSOC

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Sons of Horus wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
So she expected to get some incredible insight into mages that has escaped the Chantry's thousand year rule? Nevermind the fact that Anders is a spirit healer and 99.99% of the troublemaker mages are blood mages, just that she thinks a random mage hanging around Hawke has some noteworthy insight that has escaped the Chantry's notice through many nations and hundreds of years... just no.


Well Anders did escape the Circle on numerous occassions and no doubt had tricks to avoid capture.  Think about it Anders escaped seven times and managed to evade capture long enough to get from Lake Calenhad to Amaranthine (pretty much other side of the country). when the Templars had a magic bottle of "Find Me" to work with.  Learning from the guy who catches criminals is useful, but so is learning from the guy who regularly bests the guy who catches criminals.


That always bugged me a bit. How can Anders make the claim that he knows about how most mages die in the Circle or the abuses when he’s running away from it the entire time. Ferelden Circle was pretty tame in the mage origin. Even Jowan and the mage warden or wynne don't make such a ridicules claims. Seems to me that Anders is full of it and is lying though his teeth to get people to sympathise with his cause.


My guess is that Anders, between escape attempts, was subject and witness to a fair number of abuses, because he was a troublemaker.  My Grade 3 teacher was one of the nicest I've ever had, my brother however frequently recounted stories of being punished and even struck by her.  The key difference was my brother called punishment upon himself and I didn't, so he saw the worse side of that teacher and the school in general.

I have no problem believing Anders is telling the truth, however I also have no trouble believing Anders got a very different view of the Circle than most mages because of his behaviour.  Anders was a rebellious escapee and the mage warden is one of Irving's star pupils, of course their experiences in the Circle are going to be different, the Warden was probably actually granted a lot of leeway. 

In short Anders probably did see a lot of abuses in Fereldan, but judging by the behaviour of the mages we see in the Origin I'm inclined to believe what Anders saw was a small group of people who, quite frankly, brought it upon themselves to a degree.

Which makes me wonder; anyone else questioning why after escape number 3 or 4 they didn't just break his legs?  You don't need legs to do magic.  Or do you?

#44
Shadow of Light Dragon

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DPSSOC wrote...

Which makes me wonder; anyone else questioning why after escape number 3 or 4 they didn't just break his legs?  You don't need legs to do magic.  Or do you?


Not having legs would probably make Haste pretty useless. ;)

#45
Sons of Horus

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Which makes me wonder; anyone else questioning why after escape number 3 or 4 they didn't just break his legs?  You don't need legs to do magic.  Or do you?


Not having legs would probably make Haste pretty useless. ;)


Unless you can handstand and walk Image IPB.

#46
DRTJR

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He make them better!

#47
maxernst

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DPSSOC wrote...

Sons of Horus wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Rifneno wrote...


.




My guess is that Anders, between escape attempts, was subject and witness to a fair number of abuses, because he was a troublemaker.  My Grade 3 teacher was one of the nicest I've ever had, my brother however frequently recounted stories of being punished and even struck by her.  The key difference was my brother called punishment upon himself and I didn't, so he saw the worse side of that teacher and the school in general.

I have no problem believing Anders is telling the truth, however I also have no trouble believing Anders got a very different view of the Circle than most mages because of his behaviour.  Anders was a rebellious escapee and the mage warden is one of Irving's star pupils, of course their experiences in the Circle are going to be different, the Warden was probably actually granted a lot of leeway. 

In short Anders probably did see a lot of abuses in Fereldan, but judging by the behaviour of the mages we see in the Origin I'm inclined to believe what Anders saw was a small group of people who, quite frankly, brought it upon themselves to a degree.


Basically, yes, the Circle would have been much harsher with Anders because he was causing trouble.  But I think also, even in Ferelden, there's a problem of lack of accountability for the Templars.  Anders would probably have a hard time convincing even a reasonable man like Gregoir that you're telling the truth ifhe complained of abuses. If Wynne had been abused or seen abuse by a Templar and told Gregoir, there would have been action, but even in Ferelden, I'm sure there were Templars who would take advantage of the fact that certain mage apprentices weren't likely to be viewed as credible sources, just as some of Aveline's guards prey on the elves in the alienage. 

#48
Sons of Horus

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maxernst wrote...
Basically, yes, the Circle would have been much harsher with Anders because he was causing trouble.  But I think also, even in Ferelden, there's a problem of lack of accountability for the Templars.  Anders would probably have a hard time convincing even a reasonable man like Gregoir that you're telling the truth ifhe complained of abuses. If Wynne had been abused or seen abuse by a Templar and told Gregoir, there would have been action, but even in Ferelden, I'm sure there were Templars who would take advantage of the fact that certain mage apprentices weren't likely to be viewed as credible sources, just as some of Aveline's guards prey on the elves in the alienage. 


Im not so sure about that, there was little that Gregoir or the First Enchanter wouldn't know what was going on in the tower.

#49
CrimsonZephyr

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Also, Irving and Greagoir? Not the most flawless judges of character. There's a bit of codex lore that you find in Irving's office that basically states he put Uldred in charge of the perennial blood mage witch hunts. Yeah, the same Uldred who led a blood mage rebellion. Epic fail.

#50
Gervaise

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People make mistakes - no one is perfect. What you look at is their overall approach and whether or not generally they practise what they preach. Irving and Greagoir do seem typical examples of how the circle ought to operate, Meredith and Orsino of how it shouldn't. However, even Meredith endeavours to operate within the law, even after she goes insane and Cullen consistently supports my character when she asks mercy to be offered. Orsino on the other hand has deliberately and knowingly protected a blood mage murderer from the law and then goes on to use the knowledge he gained from said blood mage. (see another post about my views on this.) This is why I was trying to get to grips with what the chantry actually teach rather than how some people may have interpreted that teaching and others may have abused it. Incidentally I remember that Alistair told me that as a trainee Templar he was taught to respect women - so whilst some Templars may abuse their position, it would not be acceptable if those in authority knew about it.