Yup on the Mage Origin. You even get Templars like Greagoir who preface the "magic is a curse" part with "magic is a gift".
Far as Anders he lies about several things boldfaced to Hawke, which I've chalked up to either Varric's storytelling (IE: not knowing what was really said and inventing something to cover the space on events he knows happened) or Anders being possessed and his memory having been scrambled a bit by Justice occupying the same space. Until I actually see how DA2 plays out in the next game, I'm not calling Anders himself a liar for simply having facts wrong.
I wouldn't say Anders lies several times as much as the writers not being on the same page. When Anders says a Harrowed mage isn't supposed to be made tranquil, it's not like Hawke contradicts this - and Gaider clarified that it only happens under extraordinary circumstances. Since Hawke even states that Harrowed mages aren't made tranquil legally, it seems more like an issue of Gaider not clarifying the issue for the writer handling these scenes that it can happen under extraordinary circumstances, although Anders is correct about Karl - writing a letter doesn't seem like an extraordinary circumstance to me, and we hear Circle mages attesting to Ser Alrik making them tranquil even though they passed their Harrowing (which, again, seems to echo that Gaider didn't clarify this issue for the other writers, but it serves to provide us with the information that Anders is being honest about the law being broken if mages are being made tranquil without justification). Anders was honest in addressing his concerns about his people, his concern about Ser Alrik and his "Tranquil Solution," his opinion on blood magic, and he lies only when it comes to his Act III personal quest - Justice - although it's technically true that he will be seperated from Justice because he believes Hawke will kill him, which will seperate him from the Spirit of Justice.
To date no one has said anything about rape but Anders did mention suicide. No one apart from Anders has mentioned sin with respect to magic, not even Fenris and if anyone was going to, apart from the numerous templars I meet in the game, I thought it would have been him.[/quote]
Lots of people have mentioned it. There's the most well known, where 2 seconds into the mage origin Gregior calls it a curse, to random bits such as this one I SS'd because this "Anders is lying, the Chantry doesn't preach that" bit comes up so often:
There's also the shining example of Keili. Who, by the way, basically commits suicide by way of tranquility. I'm not sure why people think the suicides aren't happening just because they don't see them. This is Dragon Age, not Witcher. Bioware isn't going to show you someone that hung themselves in their room and has an "I can't take this crap anymore" note pinned to their chest. Even the sex scenes in this game could make the cut for a Disney film. (And yes, I'm aware of Sheparding Wolves. But it was an alien species, in an alien culture, doing it in an impossible way.) Besides which, it's quite clear that DA2 wasn't even pencilled in when they wrote DAO. Cullen isn't roaming the countryside murdering random folk, that "never happened." So why did all the awesomeness of the DAO mage origin still happen?
Even though we only meet a handful of the Ferelden Circle mages (for good reason, it's not like they can design a large, realistic population for even one area, let alone all of them), we still meet one that's a clear sign the Chantry is poisoning her mind (Keili) and Uldred led a revolt of who knows how many mages. Obviously things weren't totally peaches and cream. If they shoved it down our throats by showing us that it's a horrible place, how many complaints would they have gotten that there was no way to fix it in DAO?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot the rape. Ser Alrik, anyone? And of course, Karras. Karras rapes Alain if you let him live in Act I. Even if you kill Karras then and Alain never has to deal with him, when questioned for his reasoning on joining a conspiracy in Best Served Cold, Alain basically says "I'm sick of being raped."
[quote]To be fair to Meredith there are reasons why she had gone over the top – she has been driven insane. The true Meredith was contained in the note to Ser Alric when she would not support his mad cap and illegal scheme. And given the number of abominations we encounter, blood mages and what Orsino does (and did with respect to my Mother), it would appear her paranoia did have a basis in fact.[/quote]
Not in the least. Even in Act I, before the lyrium idol is even found, it's clear Meredith is a tyrant. Thrask says that the conditions are worse in the Kirkwall Circle than others since Meredith took over and that he feels (correctly so) that her heavy-handed oppression is causing more dissent than obidence. Even Macha talks about all the "dark rumors" about Meredith. Meredith was ALWAYS evil.
Furthermore, the amount of abominations and blood mages is BECAUSE of Meredith. She drove a lot of them to it with her evil. Blaming them for taking the only route available to defend themselves is like saying a man is a murderer because he shot a mugger charging at him with a knife. Retro-justification is a logical fallacy with few equals.
[quote]Also if you want to talk about creepy – having a physical relationship with someone who tells you that his spirit companion does not approve, that’s weird. Hence the decision to opt for pure friendship with Anders and remain faithful to Fenris.[/quote]
Yeah, Fenris is totally stable.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Well Anders did escape the Circle on numerous occassions and no doubt had tricks to avoid capture. Think about it Anders escaped seven times and managed to evade capture long enough to get from Lake Calenhad to Amaranthine (pretty much other side of the country). when the Templars had a magic bottle of "Find Me" to work with. Learning from the guy who catches criminals is useful, but so is learning from the guy who regularly bests the guy who catches criminals.[/quote]
Hmm. Okay, that's actually a very good point. Though I'm not sure Aveline knew about that.
[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...
Idunna knew. She said, point blank, what was going on with Tahrone if questioned-- and that she was working towards the new imperium. Far as the rest-- then why bother bringing up Hawke and Co not challenging Anders about Ferelden? And yeah, I would have waited and paid extra for a better game. You bet your socks I would.[/quote]
We have different ideas of better then. I certainly wouldn't pay a lot more for DA2 with all its current problems but more unneccessary dialogue options to suit every eventuality. A fair point on the rest though. Though I've never heard Idunna say that, she always claims not to know what Tahrone is doing when I've let her live long enough to question her. Not sure what you did differently.
[quote]I'm not demonizing anyone. Anders did an extremely crappy thing to Aveline. Had I been present in RL and witnessed such a thing it would have been a "slap to the back of his head" moment. Far as "excuses"--- I don't even know what to say to that. Just like a lot of these things if you can't logically see the difference, I can't make you.[/quote]
So it's wrong to make a distasteful joke, but it's okay to physically strike someone? Gonna have to disagree with that one too. Very, very strongly.
Extremely crappy? Maybe. I'm not saying the joke was in good taste, I'm just saying that it was a joke and he wasn't just, for lack of a better word, trolling.
[quote]I was addressing my feelings towards the "White Knight" scenario-- since that's what you generalized. Since they are my feelings and extrapolations, I will say as I please. I believe he is a slave (like the rest of the Templars) and so it's even more ludicrous that the idea of being swept off my feet, white knight style, would be the reason I liked him.[/quote]
As I said, I didn't mean the Cullen "get out of jail free for being hot" card thing to be directed at you. In hindsight, I can see how it could be taken that way. Bad wording on my part (or rather, bad time to start musing randomly). I do still find the slave thing to be little more than a justification for crimes of the Order as a whole though. "Slave" gets tossed around too liberally around here. Someone that occasionally has to do something they don't like to do isn't necessarily a slave.
[quote]as to the holocaust thing (you do love your Hitler/WW2 stuff)[/quote]
And you do love your slave stuff. BTW, a character in-game refers to the Tranquil Solution as a "holocaust." So, yeah...
[quote]He has a prejudice in place from a deeply traumatic event that makes him do and say idiotic things sometimes. That doesn't mean he doesn't show signs of overcoming this (which is damned amazing). I'm all for redemption and with damage like Cullen's that happens in small steps, not grand sweeping gestures.[/quote]
I haven't even seen a crawl, let alone a step. Regardless, I'd have sympathy for Cullen if he was on psych leave and getting help. I have no sympathy for him when he's in a position of power and using his past as an excuse for abusing an entire minority.
[quote]I guess I'm a honey badger[/quote]
That reminds me I need to stop being lazy and get a real avatar. /sigh
[quote](Forgive me everyone else, this section is not going to be pleasant to read but I'm tired of having my personal experiences painted as nothing major by Rif.)[/quote]
Okay, I apologize for coming off that way. I did make an unfair assumption. But you were also painting something quite major as nothing major in acting as if a stalker isn't cause for concern. It certainly is. You're obviously in a performing business which means you're a lot more likely to get them than most people. You know how to handle them. Steven Irwin, God rest his soul, knew how to handle crocodiles. But the random person on the street would be wise to run screaming if they were approached by a 10 foot tooth factory that can turn them into meat confetti.
[quote](I'm a fan, and look at me, I'm arguing with you largely over nonexistant people on a message board. Pretty goofy. Also somewhat creepy. )[/quote]
"Arguing" has an ugly perception to it. It's assumed to be angry and unpleasant by nature. I know I'm often interpreted that way, but I don't generally discuss something like video games with people that legitimately get me angry. Internet fights are stupid and pointless. A civil debate, however, can be fun. Besides... if I wasn't doing this, I might have to do something constructive! Heaven forbid!
Seriously though, I don't see why it's goofy or creepy. People still debate Shakespeare's works. While DA2 is hardly King Lear (the main character does lose a lot of family though... hmm...), there's nothing wrong with discussing/debating fiction. Sure beats whatever ridiculous reality show Fox is running now. =/
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
In short Anders probably did see a lot of abuses in Fereldan, but judging by the behaviour of the mages we see in the Origin I'm inclined to believe what Anders saw was a small group of people who, quite frankly, brought it upon themselves to a degree.[/quote]
I do hope you mean a small degree (i.e. that they brought some punishment on themselves but some templars took it too far). People just trying to live free aren't "bringing rape upon themselves." But otherwise, an excellent post/point. As was maxernst's (I'd quote it too, but this post is long enough without quoting others just to say "QFT")
[quote]Sons of Horus wrote...
Im not so sure about that, there was little that Gregoir or the First Enchanter wouldn't know what was going on in the tower.[/quote]
You mean like the fact they missed a big revolt was being organized right under their noses? Yeah, I'm sure there's no way they'd know if a templar had an apprentice in a closet for 10 minutes.
[quote]Gervaise wrote...
People make mistakes - no one is perfect. What you look at is their overall approach and whether or not generally they practise what they preach. Irving and Greagoir do seem typical examples of how the circle ought to operate, Meredith and Orsino of how it shouldn't. However, even Meredith endeavours to operate within the law, even after she goes insane and Cullen consistently supports my character when she asks mercy to be offered. Orsino on the other hand has deliberately and knowingly protected a blood mage murderer from the law and then goes on to use the knowledge he gained from said blood mage. (see another post about my views on this.)[/quote]
Orsino was an excellent First Enchanter. He had the job because no one else wanted it. They knew it was impossible to do acceptably with Meredith and no one wanted to be responsible. Orsino stepped up to the plate and did what he thought was best for the mages he was responsible for protecting. Yes, he didn't turn Quentin in. If you take the templar path and have the option to ask him "WTF?" he'll say with some remorse that he was afraid of what Meredith would do if she could use Quentin's crimes as an excuse. And considering she's currently executing every mage in the Circle for something one apostate did, he was right. This is the same guy who told Bethany to run and let the Qunari take him when they were attacking. Orsino was a good man that was being tasked with an impossible job.
Saying something is a curse is not the same as saying it is a sin. Something can be both a blessing and a curse depending on how you use it. It seems like a curse because there is an ever present temptation to go down the dark path, demons are constantly trying to penetrate your mind and yes, the majority of people fear you, with good reason. Anders was bascially a nice guy with good intentions but even he falls pray to possession. And even he was taken aback when poor Feynriel begged to be made tranquil because he didn't want to have to endure the nightmares anymore. He was also knocked back by the fact that both the Grand Cleric and Meredith had rejected Ser Alric's idea. And let us not forget he would have killed that poor girl mage we rescued if I hadn't stopped him. At the end I gave him the benefit of the doubt and I asked him if the decision to bomb the Chantry was him or Justice and at last seemed to get the truth when he said it was him, though bearing in mind he wanted to die may be he was still lying. I cannot believe how many people are justifying terroism which is what Anders' act amounts to. It is also the height of arrogance to assume that everyone wants you to act in the way you do. There are probably a fair number of mages who will now fall prey to abomination because there is no one there to watch over them and save them from themselves. Abomination is slavery, far more so than living in the Circle. And where oh where is this stuff about rape. I saved that guy and then ran into him again in Act 3 - challenged him and he said nothing about rape. This is why I seem to be playing a totally different game to everyone else because I am just not getting this stuff in my dialogues.
To date no one has said anything about rape but Anders did mention suicide. No one apart from Anders has mentioned sin with respect to magic, not even Fenris and if anyone was going to, apart from the numerous templars I meet in the game, I thought it would have been him.[/quote]
Lots of people have mentioned it. There's the most well known, where 2 seconds into the mage origin Gregior calls it a curse, to random bits such as this one I SS'd because this "Anders is lying, the Chantry doesn't preach that" bit comes up so often:
There's also the shining example of Keili. Who, by the way, basically commits suicide by way of tranquility. I'm not sure why people think the suicides aren't happening just because they don't see them. This is Dragon Age, not Witcher. Bioware isn't going to show you someone that hung themselves in their room and has an "I can't take this crap anymore" note pinned to their chest. Even the sex scenes in this game could make the cut for a Disney film. (And yes, I'm aware of Sheparding Wolves. But it was an alien species, in an alien culture, doing it in an impossible way.) Besides which, it's quite clear that DA2 wasn't even pencilled in when they wrote DAO. Cullen isn't roaming the countryside murdering random folk, that "never happened." So why did all the awesomeness of the DAO mage origin still happen?
Even though we only meet a handful of the Ferelden Circle mages (for good reason, it's not like they can design a large, realistic population for even one area, let alone all of them), we still meet one that's a clear sign the Chantry is poisoning her mind (Keili) and Uldred led a revolt of who knows how many mages. Obviously things weren't totally peaches and cream. If they shoved it down our throats by showing us that it's a horrible place, how many complaints would they have gotten that there was no way to fix it in DAO?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot the rape. Ser Alrik, anyone? And of course, Karras. Karras rapes Alain if you let him live in Act I. Even if you kill Karras then and Alain never has to deal with him, when questioned for his reasoning on joining a conspiracy in Best Served Cold, Alain basically says "I'm sick of being raped."
[quote]To be fair to Meredith there are reasons why she had gone over the top – she has been driven insane. The true Meredith was contained in the note to Ser Alric when she would not support his mad cap and illegal scheme. And given the number of abominations we encounter, blood mages and what Orsino does (and did with respect to my Mother), it would appear her paranoia did have a basis in fact.[/quote]
Not in the least. Even in Act I, before the lyrium idol is even found, it's clear Meredith is a tyrant. Thrask says that the conditions are worse in the Kirkwall Circle than others since Meredith took over and that he feels (correctly so) that her heavy-handed oppression is causing more dissent than obidence. Even Macha talks about all the "dark rumors" about Meredith. Meredith was ALWAYS evil.
Furthermore, the amount of abominations and blood mages is BECAUSE of Meredith. She drove a lot of them to it with her evil. Blaming them for taking the only route available to defend themselves is like saying a man is a murderer because he shot a mugger charging at him with a knife. Retro-justification is a logical fallacy with few equals.
[quote]Also if you want to talk about creepy – having a physical relationship with someone who tells you that his spirit companion does not approve, that’s weird. Hence the decision to opt for pure friendship with Anders and remain faithful to Fenris.[/quote]
Yeah, Fenris is totally stable.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Well Anders did escape the Circle on numerous occassions and no doubt had tricks to avoid capture. Think about it Anders escaped seven times and managed to evade capture long enough to get from Lake Calenhad to Amaranthine (pretty much other side of the country). when the Templars had a magic bottle of "Find Me" to work with. Learning from the guy who catches criminals is useful, but so is learning from the guy who regularly bests the guy who catches criminals.[/quote]
Hmm. Okay, that's actually a very good point. Though I'm not sure Aveline knew about that.
[quote]Marduksdragon wrote...
Idunna knew. She said, point blank, what was going on with Tahrone if questioned-- and that she was working towards the new imperium. Far as the rest-- then why bother bringing up Hawke and Co not challenging Anders about Ferelden? And yeah, I would have waited and paid extra for a better game. You bet your socks I would.[/quote]
We have different ideas of better then. I certainly wouldn't pay a lot more for DA2 with all its current problems but more unneccessary dialogue options to suit every eventuality. A fair point on the rest though. Though I've never heard Idunna say that, she always claims not to know what Tahrone is doing when I've let her live long enough to question her. Not sure what you did differently.
[quote]I'm not demonizing anyone. Anders did an extremely crappy thing to Aveline. Had I been present in RL and witnessed such a thing it would have been a "slap to the back of his head" moment. Far as "excuses"--- I don't even know what to say to that. Just like a lot of these things if you can't logically see the difference, I can't make you.[/quote]
So it's wrong to make a distasteful joke, but it's okay to physically strike someone? Gonna have to disagree with that one too. Very, very strongly.
Extremely crappy? Maybe. I'm not saying the joke was in good taste, I'm just saying that it was a joke and he wasn't just, for lack of a better word, trolling.
[quote]I was addressing my feelings towards the "White Knight" scenario-- since that's what you generalized. Since they are my feelings and extrapolations, I will say as I please. I believe he is a slave (like the rest of the Templars) and so it's even more ludicrous that the idea of being swept off my feet, white knight style, would be the reason I liked him.[/quote]
As I said, I didn't mean the Cullen "get out of jail free for being hot" card thing to be directed at you. In hindsight, I can see how it could be taken that way. Bad wording on my part (or rather, bad time to start musing randomly). I do still find the slave thing to be little more than a justification for crimes of the Order as a whole though. "Slave" gets tossed around too liberally around here. Someone that occasionally has to do something they don't like to do isn't necessarily a slave.
[quote]as to the holocaust thing (you do love your Hitler/WW2 stuff)[/quote]
And you do love your slave stuff. BTW, a character in-game refers to the Tranquil Solution as a "holocaust." So, yeah...
[quote]He has a prejudice in place from a deeply traumatic event that makes him do and say idiotic things sometimes. That doesn't mean he doesn't show signs of overcoming this (which is damned amazing). I'm all for redemption and with damage like Cullen's that happens in small steps, not grand sweeping gestures.[/quote]
I haven't even seen a crawl, let alone a step. Regardless, I'd have sympathy for Cullen if he was on psych leave and getting help. I have no sympathy for him when he's in a position of power and using his past as an excuse for abusing an entire minority.
[quote]I guess I'm a honey badger[/quote]
That reminds me I need to stop being lazy and get a real avatar. /sigh
[quote](Forgive me everyone else, this section is not going to be pleasant to read but I'm tired of having my personal experiences painted as nothing major by Rif.)[/quote]
Okay, I apologize for coming off that way. I did make an unfair assumption. But you were also painting something quite major as nothing major in acting as if a stalker isn't cause for concern. It certainly is. You're obviously in a performing business which means you're a lot more likely to get them than most people. You know how to handle them. Steven Irwin, God rest his soul, knew how to handle crocodiles. But the random person on the street would be wise to run screaming if they were approached by a 10 foot tooth factory that can turn them into meat confetti.
[quote](I'm a fan, and look at me, I'm arguing with you largely over nonexistant people on a message board. Pretty goofy. Also somewhat creepy. )[/quote]
"Arguing" has an ugly perception to it. It's assumed to be angry and unpleasant by nature. I know I'm often interpreted that way, but I don't generally discuss something like video games with people that legitimately get me angry. Internet fights are stupid and pointless. A civil debate, however, can be fun. Besides... if I wasn't doing this, I might have to do something constructive! Heaven forbid!
Seriously though, I don't see why it's goofy or creepy. People still debate Shakespeare's works. While DA2 is hardly King Lear (the main character does lose a lot of family though... hmm...), there's nothing wrong with discussing/debating fiction. Sure beats whatever ridiculous reality show Fox is running now. =/
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
In short Anders probably did see a lot of abuses in Fereldan, but judging by the behaviour of the mages we see in the Origin I'm inclined to believe what Anders saw was a small group of people who, quite frankly, brought it upon themselves to a degree.[/quote]
I do hope you mean a small degree (i.e. that they brought some punishment on themselves but some templars took it too far). People just trying to live free aren't "bringing rape upon themselves." But otherwise, an excellent post/point. As was maxernst's (I'd quote it too, but this post is long enough without quoting others just to say "QFT")
[quote]Sons of Horus wrote...
Im not so sure about that, there was little that Gregoir or the First Enchanter wouldn't know what was going on in the tower.[/quote]
You mean like the fact they missed a big revolt was being organized right under their noses? Yeah, I'm sure there's no way they'd know if a templar had an apprentice in a closet for 10 minutes.
[quote]Gervaise wrote...
People make mistakes - no one is perfect. What you look at is their overall approach and whether or not generally they practise what they preach. Irving and Greagoir do seem typical examples of how the circle ought to operate, Meredith and Orsino of how it shouldn't. However, even Meredith endeavours to operate within the law, even after she goes insane and Cullen consistently supports my character when she asks mercy to be offered. Orsino on the other hand has deliberately and knowingly protected a blood mage murderer from the law and then goes on to use the knowledge he gained from said blood mage. (see another post about my views on this.)[/quote]
Orsino was an excellent First Enchanter. He had the job because no one else wanted it. They knew it was impossible to do acceptably with Meredith and no one wanted to be responsible. Orsino stepped up to the plate and did what he thought was best for the mages he was responsible for protecting. Yes, he didn't turn Quentin in. If you take the templar path and have the option to ask him "WTF?" he'll say with some remorse that he was afraid of what Meredith would do if she could use Quentin's crimes as an excuse. And considering she's currently executing every mage in the Circle for something one apostate did, he was right. This is the same guy who told Bethany to run and let the Qunari take him when they were attacking. Orsino was a good man that was being tasked with an impossible job. [/quote]
Greagoir prefaces the "magic is a curse" with "magic is a gift" and seems to be very supportive to me. "You are ready."
When you ask Idunna about Tahrone she admits that she knows what she's up to, and trying to build a new Imperium where "mages rule"- just not what the Templars are for. Every time I've bothered to question her she says the same thing (although I wouldn't rule out glitches-- I've taken Gascard with me during the murder and Quentin and they haven't had their scripted dialogue a few times before. He's treated like a silent party member during the glitch. It really surprised me the first time I saw the "apprentice" dialogue.)
I don't think corporal punishment is wrong (on the slapping). Certainly it's wrong to go around hitting people at random (like it is to insult people and hurt their feelings)-- but slapping someone for being nasty to someone else? I think that's perfectly reasonable. Not like I'm saying "OMG ANDERS SHOULD BE SHIVVED FOR BEING MEAN TO AVELINE!". I would apply direct hand-to-back-of-head percussive correction though.
I just accept that we're never going to agree about Cullen because our viewpoints are entirely different. I've been Cullen. I've done things I wasn't especially proud of later in the wake of being imprisoned and abused-- and I might have indeed become a monster if circumstances had been different. I was at the least permanently altered. I also didn't have the luxury of having medical attention for my issues until much later because my family was desperately poor at the time as my mother had had a massive stroke. What I see in him are steps back to the light and I am proud for each and every one. You do not. That's fine.
Difference is, I've walked into a home under false pretenses-- thinking that I would be safe. I've been drugged and chained and screaming for escape and no one came. The neighbors didn't even look in the windows. I was told later that he'd informed them that I was there to be taken care of because I had 'fits' and so they thought the screaming was nothing unusual. He was, after all, employed at a hospital. I've wanted to die rather than be rescued. I've been forced to scrub floors in the nude with a toothbrush while this lunatic had fun. Been forced to massage and feed him-- and other things I will not describe. He killed my dog with gopher poison to make a point, and poisoned me several times just to show that he could. Until you have experienced anything close to that, or the DA universe outright undoes everything we've seen that upholds my views (of which there is much), I will continue to argue your assertions that the Templars are not as much slaves as the mages. Personal experience screams loudest. They are all suffering and they are slaves (even if theirs is a more insidious form of slavery and opression than the imprisonment and forced labor I was subjected to), whether or not the "neighbors" recognize that the Chantry is monstrously evil or not or the Templars lie to themselves to make it bearable until they cannot any longer.
Far as the stalkers-- my point was that most people are harmless enough. I've been around really harmful people and know the difference. Some stalkers are crocodiles and some of them are just people who've been captivated. Once that captivation is satisfied you either have a doting friend or they move on to the next thrilling captivation.
Heaven forbid indeed! I just hate television for the most part. I'd rather play a game or read a book-- or write on a message board.
Sure it's goofy-- we could be talking about real-world hurts and problems. Putting our minds to good use, and we waste them here instead because it's fun. And creepy-- sure it is. We're obsessed enough with Dragon Age to argue/discuss its minutae on a message board. I think the guys arguing about more scholarly works are a little obsessed and fanboyish too. Otherwise why bother? What I was trying to say earlier is that a lot of people are creepy now and again. A lot of people are obsessed over different things. That doesn't make them all dangerous. If I beleived that I'd hide in my bed 24-7 with the lights off.
As for you-- no, I'm not mad at you, Rif. I'm just furious in general that people throw around words like oppression and slavery from their armchairs and they have no clue what the're talking about. And they're just as quick to dismiss horror wrought on others because "it just isn't as bad as what happened over here". (On one hand, something to be thankful for, on the other hand it doesn't help the irritation.) It's like listening to people who've never been without food a day in their lives discuss starvation. As far as holocaust, yes it was mentioned in game but the word has been around longer than WW2. (Sorry if the print comes out huge, I copypasta-d it and the font won't change size) --- 2. What is the origin of the word “Holocaust”? The word holocaust comes from the ancient Greek, olos meaning "whole" and kaustos or kautos meaning "burnt." Appearing as early as the fifth century B.C.E., the term can mean a sacrifice wholly consumed by fire or a great destruction of life, especially by fire. -- Considering the reverence for fire the Andrastians have, holocaust is an incredibly appropriate word for a Templar to use.
Edit: Also, with Keili, she doesn't become tranquil. She only considers it if you mention it to her and you have the option, after mentioning it, of calling her deranged.
Edit: While I'm here-- Orsino didn't just ignore Quentin (and he could have. Surely more dangerous to pass Quentin books and notes, if he were truly afraid of Meredith, than just ignore him wholesale and try to keep his hands clean). He knew what Quentin was doing and gave him research help--- which means he was a knowing accessory to the murder of scores of innocent women. That's not the act of a good man.
Modifié par Marduksdragon, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:10 .
I don't think corporal punishment is wrong (on the slapping). Certainly it's wrong to go around hitting people at random (like it is to insult people and hurt their feelings)-- but slapping someone for being nasty to someone else? I think that's perfectly reasonable. Not like I'm saying "OMG ANDERS SHOULD BE SHIVVED FOR BEING MEAN TO AVELINE!". I would apply direct hand-to-back-of-head percussive correction though.
And who are you to decide a remark is worthy of "coropral punishment" of another adult? I believe anyone, man or woman, who hits someone else for being "rude" better expect to get back.
I just accept that we're never going to agree about Cullen because our viewpoints are entirely different. I've been Cullen. I've done things I wasn't especially proud of later in the wake of being imprisoned and abused-- and I might have indeed become a monster if circumstances had been different. I was at the least permanently altered. I also didn't have the luxury of having medical attention for my issues until much later because my family was desperately poor at the time as my mother had had a massive stroke. What I see in him are steps back to the light and I am proud for each and every one. You do not. That's fine.
We've all done things we regret. I don't want to talk about my past but suffice to say until I was about 25 and properly medicated I was pretty wrong in the head. I'm certainly not proud of much I did then and I'd love to take a lot of it back. I understand perfectly well what mental problems can do to someone and I have plenty of sympathy for them. But I also think that doesn't give people a free ticket to do whatever they want, especially things they know deep down are wrong.
They are all suffering and they are slaves (even if theirs is a more insidious form of slavery and opression than the imprisonment and forced labor I was subjected to), whether or not the "neighbors" recognize that the Chantry is monstrously evil or not or the Templars lie to themselves to make it bearable until they cannot any longer.
There's quite a difference between someone screaming for help and a soldier who may or may not have signed up willingly (and how many militaries are made up of 100% willing and informed soldiers?). The thing about lying to themselves would only apply if it was some of them. It's just not feasible that they're all lying to themselves or suffering Stockholm Syndrome.
Heaven forbid indeed! I just hate television for the most part. I'd rather play a game or read a book-- or write on a message board.
Ditto. I only watch a few shows a week, and they're almost all for comedy. Haven't read as much as I'd like, but recently discovered the wonder of the Kindle and started catching up.
Sure it's goofy-- we could be talking about real-world hurts and problems. Putting our minds to good use, and we waste them here instead because it's fun. And creepy-- sure it is. We're obsessed enough with Dragon Age to argue/discuss its minutae on a message board. I think the guys arguing about more scholarly works are a little obsessed and fanboyish too. Otherwise why bother? What I was trying to say earlier is that a lot of people are creepy now and again. A lot of people are obsessed over different things. That doesn't make them all dangerous. If I beleived that I'd hide in my bed 24-7 with the lights off.
On the contrary, discussing real world problems rarely leads to fixing them. Instead you're left with negative feelings about the very real problems that you can't fix. However when you're discussing a work of fiction you can just shrug it off because the suffering isn't real.
Edit: While I'm here-- Orsino didn't just ignore Quentin (and he could have. Surely more dangerous to pass Quentin books and notes, if he were truly afraid of Meredith, than just ignore him wholesale and try to keep his hands clean). He knew what Quentin was doing and gave him research help--- which means he was a knowing accessory to the murder of scores of innocent women. That's not the act of a good man.
Debatable. He said once he knew of Quentin's depravity he didn't turn him in, which implied he didn't know Quentin was murdering people when he helped him. Necromancy in itself, while disturbing, is not necessarily evil. It's quite possible he thought Quentin was using already dead bodies at first.
People make mistakes - no one is perfect. What you look at is their overall approach and whether or not generally they practise what they preach. Irving and Greagoir do seem typical examples of how the circle ought to operate, Meredith and Orsino of how it shouldn't. However, even Meredith endeavours to operate within the law, even after she goes insane and Cullen consistently supports my character when she asks mercy to be offered. Orsino on the other hand has deliberately and knowingly protected a blood mage murderer from the law and then goes on to use the knowledge he gained from said blood mage. (see another post about my views on this.) This is why I was trying to get to grips with what the chantry actually teach rather than how some people may have interpreted that teaching and others may have abused it. Incidentally I remember that Alistair told me that as a trainee Templar he was taught to respect women - so whilst some Templars may abuse their position, it would not be acceptable if those in authority knew about it.
This is almost funny. Meredith who takes over a city-state, allows Templars in her employ to get ideas about Tranquiling every mage, is so incompetent that she doesn't realize mages are being raped and beaten (or she does know which is even worse) and finally wants to murder them all because of something someone else did is better than Orsino who supported Quentin only by sending research materials and then, in fear for his own life as well as his charges, didn't tell the paranoid zealot once he found out what was really going on?
This is almost funny. Meredith who takes over a city-state, allows Templars in her employ to get ideas about Tranquiling every mage, is so incompetent that she doesn't realize mages are being raped and beaten (or she does know which is even worse) and finally wants to murder them all because of something someone else did is better than Orsino who supported Quentin only by sending research materials and then, in fear for his own life as well as his charges, didn't tell the paranoid zealot once he found out what was really going on?
Are those rose colored glasses or beer goggles?
Didn't you get the memo? Orsino's crimes are nine billion times worse because one of the women Quentin killed was the PC's mother. Orsino is clearly worse than Gilles de Rais because Hawke's pathetic excuse of a mother may or may not have died because of his inaction. The hordes of mages who Orsino would risk by reporting Quentin and Meredith later murders anyway? Screw them, they're not Leandra. Plus, you're not innocent if you can light a candle obviously.
Didn't you get the memo? Orsino's crimes are nine billion times worse because one of the women Quentin killed was the PC's mother. Orsino is clearly worse than Gilles de Rais because Hawke's pathetic excuse of a mother may or may not have died because of his inaction. The hordes of mages who Orsino would risk by reporting Quentin and Meredith later murders anyway? Screw them, they're not Leandra. Plus, you're not innocent if you can light a candle obviously.
Doh! I knew I was missing something.
Seriously, I can see that both sides are portrayed as bat**** crazy more often than not, but to try to claim Meredith is better than, well, anyone, is just bizarre.
Orsino reporting Quentin to Meredith is like telling your mom that your kid brother broke the vase knowing he'll get beaten half to death for it. When you know that the punishment will far outweigh the crime, it's not terribly reasonable to expect it to be reported. That is why paranoid zealots end up working against themselves.
I don't remember anything in game to suggest that Orsino knew more than that Quentin was practicing necromancy. If there is something I missed that shows that Orsino knew Quentin was killing women to build a zombie jigsaw puzzle then please post it. Otherwise, I have to assume that Orsino only knew that it was forbidden research and stopped helping as soon as he realized that it might be more diabolical than that.
There are rather too many Blood mages about Kirkwall to really claim that Meredith finding out about another would have major repercussions.
Those blood mages are operating outside her control. For Orsino to tell her that he'd been not only corresponding with Quentin, but also sending him research material is a different matter.
DPSSOC wrote... Well Anders did escape the Circle on numerous occassions and no doubt had tricks to avoid capture. Think about it Anders escaped seven times and managed to evade capture long enough to get from Lake Calenhad to Amaranthine (pretty much other side of the country). when the Templars had a magic bottle of "Find Me" to work with. Learning from the guy who catches criminals is useful, but so is learning from the guy who regularly bests the guy who catches criminals.
Hmm. Okay, that's actually a very good point. Though I'm not sure Aveline knew about that.
True but given that in DA:A Anders talks about his escapes with a measure of pride I could see him sharing them with at least Varric and, as we know, Varric is the biggest mouth in Thedas.
Rifneno wrote...
DPSSOC wrote... In short Anders probably did see a lot of abuses in Fereldan, but judging by the behaviour of the mages we see in the Origin I'm inclined to believe what Anders saw was a small group of people who, quite frankly, brought it upon themselves to a degree.
I do hope you mean a small degree (i.e. that they brought some punishment on themselves but some templars took it too far). People just trying to live free aren't "bringing rape upon themselves." But otherwise, an excellent post/point. As was maxernst's (I'd quote it too, but this post is long enough without quoting others just to say "QFT")
Yeah what I meant was that they call the ire of the Templars on themselves. They engage in behaviour that's going to make the Templars dislike them more than other mages which would result in them being more common victims of abuse. Don't mean to imply that they deserve the abuse at any level, but that they do draw negative attention to themselves.
I don't think corporal punishment is wrong (on the slapping). Certainly it's wrong to go around hitting people at random (like it is to insult people and hurt their feelings)-- but slapping someone for being nasty to someone else? I think that's perfectly reasonable. Not like I'm saying "OMG ANDERS SHOULD BE SHIVVED FOR BEING MEAN TO AVELINE!". I would apply direct hand-to-back-of-head percussive correction though.
And who are you to decide a remark is worthy of "coropral punishment" of another adult? I believe anyone, man or woman, who hits someone else for being "rude" better expect to get back.
I just accept that we're never going to agree about Cullen because our viewpoints are entirely different. I've been Cullen. I've done things I wasn't especially proud of later in the wake of being imprisoned and abused-- and I might have indeed become a monster if circumstances had been different. I was at the least permanently altered. I also didn't have the luxury of having medical attention for my issues until much later because my family was desperately poor at the time as my mother had had a massive stroke. What I see in him are steps back to the light and I am proud for each and every one. You do not. That's fine.
We've all done things we regret. I don't want to talk about my past but suffice to say until I was about 25 and properly medicated I was pretty wrong in the head. I'm certainly not proud of much I did then and I'd love to take a lot of it back. I understand perfectly well what mental problems can do to someone and I have plenty of sympathy for them. But I also think that doesn't give people a free ticket to do whatever they want, especially things they know deep down are wrong.
They are all suffering and they are slaves (even if theirs is a more insidious form of slavery and opression than the imprisonment and forced labor I was subjected to), whether or not the "neighbors" recognize that the Chantry is monstrously evil or not or the Templars lie to themselves to make it bearable until they cannot any longer.
There's quite a difference between someone screaming for help and a soldier who may or may not have signed up willingly (and how many militaries are made up of 100% willing and informed soldiers?). The thing about lying to themselves would only apply if it was some of them. It's just not feasible that they're all lying to themselves or suffering Stockholm Syndrome.
Heaven forbid indeed! I just hate television for the most part. I'd rather play a game or read a book-- or write on a message board.
Ditto. I only watch a few shows a week, and they're almost all for comedy. Haven't read as much as I'd like, but recently discovered the wonder of the Kindle and started catching up.
Sure it's goofy-- we could be talking about real-world hurts and problems. Putting our minds to good use, and we waste them here instead because it's fun. And creepy-- sure it is. We're obsessed enough with Dragon Age to argue/discuss its minutae on a message board. I think the guys arguing about more scholarly works are a little obsessed and fanboyish too. Otherwise why bother? What I was trying to say earlier is that a lot of people are creepy now and again. A lot of people are obsessed over different things. That doesn't make them all dangerous. If I beleived that I'd hide in my bed 24-7 with the lights off.
On the contrary, discussing real world problems rarely leads to fixing them. Instead you're left with negative feelings about the very real problems that you can't fix. However when you're discussing a work of fiction you can just shrug it off because the suffering isn't real.
Edit: While I'm here-- Orsino didn't just ignore Quentin (and he could have. Surely more dangerous to pass Quentin books and notes, if he were truly afraid of Meredith, than just ignore him wholesale and try to keep his hands clean). He knew what Quentin was doing and gave him research help--- which means he was a knowing accessory to the murder of scores of innocent women. That's not the act of a good man.
Debatable. He said once he knew of Quentin's depravity he didn't turn him in, which implied he didn't know Quentin was murdering people when he helped him. Necromancy in itself, while disturbing, is not necessarily evil. It's quite possible he thought Quentin was using already dead bodies at first.
If I'm the leader of the group, as Hawke or the Warden are the leaders, I have the authority to dispense corporal punishment. This may be as dramatic as killing Zevran and not taking his offer of help, slaughtering Fenris if he turns on you, or it may be as simple as going *slap* "Out of bounds, Anders." when he decides to dump a load on Aveline's day (especially while they're working- since most of their time is spent actively on quests and not just shooting the **** at the Hanged Man. Off hours time I'd kind of give him more leniency but ticking the big girl off in the middle of doing something is just irresponsible. --also, Anders is not the only person that would be getting a love tap, I assure you *looking at Fenris who likes to twist the knife on Anders*-- ). In real life it's a bit more nebulous because there are a lot of different relationships you have to navigate. As far as hitting me back for a slap that their behavior warranted, bring it on. I'm not someone that stands by and lets people act like douchebags around me because I might get hurt if I do something about it. (For reasons that should be obvious now.) That being said, I have a pretty high tolerance for BS--- but some things are absolutely wrong. Tormenting a widow about her dead husband is wrong, even if you meant it as a very bad joke. It's akin to tormenting a woman about a miscarriage or a child about a dead parent as a joke.
I didn't want to either. Who wants to linger in that kind of crap, right? I had a panic attack both times just proof-reading it. But the only way I thought I could make you understand was to rip the scabs off and bleed all over your screen-- figuratively. I didn't want the flippant remarks or what have you. If you really couldn't see where I'm coming from, you had to see where I'm standing at least. Now that you do I think it may make understanding what I see (and how I reacted to it) easier even if you don't agree. Far as giving Cullen free liscense-- I never have. Not once. I've only applauded his very real motions towards being a good person again (slow and small up until the last they were). I expect his own guilt is eating away at him as well from his comments about the chained apprentice (as mine did quietly at first and then built up into a roar that made me physically ill). And it ends up being a combination of the guilt and the remorse and such that moves you forward and makes changes. I fully expect to go to hell if there is one, even as sorry as I am over the things I did, because part of forgiveness is being able to let things go and I can't do that with things I've done myself. I'm tormented whenever I have a quiet moment and rarely sleep without nightmares.
Alrighty, I've kind of gone over this in the enslaved thread with other people but I'll make a light condensed version here for discussion's sake. If a man buys the Chantry doctrine for altruistic reasons (much like a mage turning themselves into the Circle because they believe they are poisoned)-- and then joins the Order is just as lied to as that mage that stupidly turned themselves in to the Circle (and certainly you don't advocate not freeing people who turned themselves in willingly). He deserves to be free. If he is raised by the Chantry and has been lied to his entire life, and is made a Templar, he deserves to be free (just like a mage raised by the Circle). If he joined the Order because he needed coin, only to find out later that it is a horrific mess and that his hands will be involved in the subjugation of innocent people so long as the Chantry can hold lyrium over his head-- he deserves to be free. I'm not defending the Rylocks, Merediths, Alriks or the Karras of the Order-- as I've said before, the lunatics need purging. They not only cause suffering to the hapless mages the Chantry's got under it's boot, they're also hurting the rest of the Templars if not by the physical violence that Meredith so loved- by the behaviors they rope others into if they have any kind of authority. The Templar situation is insanely complex because you have this group of people who are terribly oppressed who are actively being made to oppress other innocent people by a third party (who uses them both like disposable tools) through chemical means. If anything I'd say the Chantry did this crap on purpose to keep the Templars under control (here, fight the mages, it's all their fault, have some more lyrium, there's a good boy) and the mages of course become rebellious (because who likes a boot in the neck? sadomasochists not withstanding) but where is their anger directed at? The Templars, not the Chantry (Orsino and Meredith sadly and stupidly expect Elthina to do something). It's like baiting two dogs into a frenzy and putting them in a cage together and taking bets on the fight because it makes you money. (And the Templars and the mages bring in a lot of revenue for the Chantry-- through services to other nations --the Templars lending their aid in battle through negotiation with the Chantry--, through goods that the mages produce and the services they provide, etc. They even trade members of these two slave-groups, though no coin changes hands, between Chantries, like a flesh-peddling ring.) It doesn't matter that the Templars descended from vigilantes and the Mages of today have little relation to the magisters of old--- whatever they were once, they are slaves now, and a shorter timespan doesn't make oppressing the Templars any more righteous than it does the mages. I want them all free. All of them. I want them supported by systems in their home governments that are going to protect the men who serve as much as they do the mages and mundanes they serve. (And what's been done to the mages is unconscionable. It is inhumane and evil.) There need to be mage schools, and places to raise mage children of mundanes among other mages. And there need to be Templars to protect them and the mundanes (as this is the case even in Tevinter where the mages rule). An altered, secular Circle system would be ideal-- as I've said elsewhere-- there needs to be oversight, checks and balances. Recourses for the raped and wronged mages that don't include the words "It wouldn't have happened if you weren't poison" in some form or another somewhere. A retirement program for the Templar that doesn't include him raving and slobbering all over himself or swinging at the end of a rope or bent over the block because his Knight-Commander is insane and the Grand Cleric doesn't care enough to step in.
Okay, so that wasn't short-- but I tried. Basically I can sum it up in the statement: the Orlesian Chantry is corrupt beyond saving (even though I don't feel the faith should share this demonization as the Guardian seemed to be a decent enough entity and the point of Andraste's march was a good one. Lots of admirable things in there before people started mucking with it). The more I talk to Elthina the more I am convinced that she is playing Meredith and Orsino for her own benefit (especially in public). If she screws up in Kirkwall and retreats (which will result in an exalted march) she won't be Grand Cleric anymore (and I do believe that some part of her may believe that she's doing the best for the man on the street-- but mostly I think it's pride and her genuine lack of concern for her own Templars, and definitely for the mages. Neither are people, after all.). When the dust settles and the survivors are counted, it'll be someone else in the high seat because she's proven herself unable to perform her duties and someone's going to say "Hey, wars cost money and we just lost a lot of our expensive slaves and made the survivors in Kirkwall hate us because this woman is an idiot. She needs to be retired" (I'd say killed, but then that would make the Divine look worse than she does already in that scenario). As I've said before, she does not act like someone who loves peace (and definitely not like someone who loves freedom).
I would love to play Ghandi, to make my peaceful revolution, but since the game does not allow that I must instead make a similar choice to Anders in hopes for freedom. If we must look at my decision to support the Templars as anything-- let it be my own Chantry explosion. The fallout from that building is going to hurt and kill lots of people Anders has never seen. And any innocent in the building was placed on the pyre of the revolution by him. He paid for freedom in blood- even his own. For me, the Circle of Mages in Kirkwall was the price I was willing to pay to have a foothold in getting the Templars and the rest of the mages (because I am not ever letting that happen again if I have a choice in the matter) loose from the Chantry (if possible. I live in hope, especially after Cassandra thinks Hawke can stop it all)-- because I couldn't see a way from what I was given, to do it the other way round. That outcome stops all possible exalted marches on Ferelden, on Kirkwall, it potentially puts the mages and Templars (after some culling -in one form or another- in the Templar ranks to get rid of the lunatics.) safely in secular hands. Is it ambitious, yes. Absolutely. Might Ygraine have to die at the end to secure the future I want for Thedas-- probably (it sounds like something Bioware might do). But I'm comfortable with it for now. Freedom is the right of all men or it's the right of none-- it's not meant to be spent like cheap coin in charity towards only 'those most deserving'. (and shame on you, Anders, for being delighted if Hawke gives Fenris back to Denarius)
Sometimes talking about real-world problems does help. If more people did it, it might help even more. But you are right-- it's much more pleasurable to discuss fictional problems that one can dismiss at the end.
I'll give you a shaky maybe on Orsino. Personally I think he knew because of the tone of events (note included) and the fact that he had the "Harvester" spell memorized despite never having supposedly worked blood magic before. It's all really very murky and I'm not so quick to give him an all clear just because he's obviously been driven crazy (and I do feel sorry for him).
Marduksdragon wrote... I fully expect to go to hell if there is one, even as sorry as I am over the things I did, because part of forgiveness is being able to let things go and I can't do that with things I've done myself. I'm tormented whenever I have a quiet moment and rarely sleep without nightmares.
It probably doesn't matter coming from some random stranger on the forum, but I don't believe in hell. Any religion that tries to convince its followers that people who lash out as a response to being abused and violated are condemned to eternal suffering isn't worth believing in.
If you thrive, it is a cosmic slap in the face to those that tried to bring you down.
My well wishes to you and I hope you will little by little put the demons to rest.
Concentrating on the game, I was just trying to get to the bottom of what the Chantry actually teaches as opposed to what others may have done with that teaching. I do not condone much of what is portrayed as happening in Kirkwall, whether by Templars or Mages. The frustrating part is that you don't have the opportunity of going outside of the city to some other Chantry and reporting what is going on. Given the timescale involved, you could travel to Orlais and back, which is where the main seat of power is. Meredith and Anders are at opposite ends of the same fanatical scale. Both believe absolutely that what they are doing is right, both are willing to sacrifice innocents to further their cause.
I think the problem with this plotline is that it contrasts so dramatically with the situation in Ferelden. Now may be the mages there have it better because of their strong links with the Calenhad line - they played a big part in him becoming king. So there is a mechanism in place for mages to appeal directly to the king if the Templars or Chantry abuse them. But in this story Anders says he is terrified of being made Tranquil and this happens to his friend allegedly because he is "too rebellious". But in Awakening Anders has constantly run away from the Circle, yet each time is apparently allowed sufficient freedom to repeat the exercise. Clearly there is a vast difference between the way matters are conducted in Ferelden and in Kirkwall. That said, I played through the Mage Ending last night and when we were gathered in the hall with the mages, I spotted Alain. This means that when I asked Cullen for mercy to be shown him because in the end he did the right thing, clearly my recommendation was accepted, despite the fact he had dabbled in blood magic, had been part of a plot against Meredith, etc. So either Cullen didn't tell Meredith, because he already recognised she was going beyond what she ought to do, or he had autonomy to decide matters for himself. Either way the fact is that the way Alain was dealt with was consistent with the way Anders was dealt with in the past. He is taken back to the circle but neither executed or made tranquil. In the Templar ending it is Cullen who first recommends sparing the mages who have left Orsino, I just back him up, and standing in front of a group of Templars, it is Meredith who has to give way. If she was within her rights to have them killed on the spot, she would have done so. Clearly she isn't and still has sufficient grip on her sanity to realise that she has to keep within Chantry law or the Templars will turn on her.
Another thing which came out of last nights play through was that Orsino's connection with the murderer is played down in the mage ending. It makes it seem like he just happened to have his books in his possession and I get no opportunity to question him about it. Even if I stop the Templars from killing the mages in the hall, in the cut scene they still are shown as dead and Orsino taking the action he does because he despairs and no longer cares about using the blood ritual. This makes no sense in the mage ending because at this point we are clearly winning and leaving aside the cut scenes, we manage to save every mage group in the city that does not resort to blood magic or turn into abominations, in other words the innocent ones.
Also interestingly enough, it is clear that Anders does believe in Andraste and the Maker because he invokes their blessing on our battle. Way back in Awakening he looks at the statue of Andraste and questions whether what she would make of the current situation. And in Origins, in response to questioning from my elf, I seem to recall the Chanters in Denerim admit that certain passages have been omitted from the Chant of Light because they are deemed by the Chantry to be heretical. These related to the elves but presumably the same may be true of mages.
Hopefully a future game will reveal more about this, may be even have a quest to discover the true teaching of Andraste.
Clearly there is a vast difference between the way matters are conducted in Ferelden and in Kirkwall.
There is, and this is Meredith's doings. I did the quest again tonight where Thrask asks you to get the mages in the caves ( Grace, Alain, Terri etc. ) to surrender before the reinforcements show up. So I decided to play dumb and ask all the options I hadn't before and he stated that Meredith had changed the rules for the mages in Kirkwall leaving them with less freedom than mages elsewhere.
Clearly there is a vast difference between the way matters are conducted in Ferelden and in Kirkwall.
There is, and this is Meredith's doings. I did the quest again tonight where Thrask asks you to get the mages in the caves ( Grace, Alain, Terri etc. ) to surrender before the reinforcements show up. So I decided to play dumb and ask all the options I hadn't before and he stated that Meredith had changed the rules for the mages in Kirkwall leaving them with less freedom than mages elsewhere.
God, I hated that quest. If only Thrask had come and talked to me instead of kidnapping Bethany. Better still, if the mages and Templars meeting in the city had talked to me instead of attacking. I still don't understand why they attacked, since the point of taking Bethany hostage was supposed to be to prevent me from attacking them. Why not say, "Ha! Ha! We have your sister hostage, so you won't dare report us to Meredith!"
Gervaise wrote... I think the problem with this plotline is that it contrasts so dramatically with the situation in Ferelden.
You could see this differently. To me, it only exposes the utter failings of the Chantry and circle system. That the mages' well being depends entirely on who is chosen as Knight Commander is just crazy. One zealot in a position of power caused a war to break out. One lazy Grand Cleric let it all happen.
Would you want your life to depend on who was chosen to be the warden of your prison? That you could either be treated with respect or disdain based on that one person and nothing you could do about it either way? The mages are totally at the mercy of the system, and when it decides to show no mercy then they are screwed. That being placed in one circle vs. another can so completely change their quality of life with seemingly no one to care is just sick. Can you imagine the horror the Starkhaven mages much have felt on hearing they were being sent to Mereidth's house of horrors? Do you think no word got to them about rapes and lashings?
That the story shows such a difference between the Lake Calenhad circle and Kirkwall is actually good storytelling. The mages lives range from gilded cage to torture chamber at the whim of the Chantry. That is a failing of the circle system, not of story telling.
The Chantry teaches mages that they have only the value given to them. They have no rights, no freedoms, no safety other than what the Chantry decides to provide. And they have no legal recourse should the Chantry fail to provide it. The Chantry teaches that mages are lesser beings by taking them away from their families, in chains if necessary, simply because they were born. The Chantry teaches mages are less than human by threatening to harm their families should they try to help. You wouldn't hurt a person for trying to help a wounded dog, but an apostate mage? That's a crime.
You can see all around you what the Chantry teaches about mages.
[quote]Gervaise wrote... I think the problem with this plotline is that it contrasts so dramatically with the situation in Ferelden.[/quote]
You could see this differently. To me, it only exposes the utter failings of the Chantry and circle system. That the mages' well being depends entirely on who is chosen as Knight Commander is just crazy. One zealot in a position of power caused a war to break out. One lazy Grand Cleric let it all happen.[/quote]Besides that any heirarchial organization depends on the quality of top leadership, it certainly took well more than 'one zealot in a position of power' to cause the war. It took a number of system breakdowns to achieve the end result of Kirkwall, starting from the prior Viscount and moving on down. [quote] Would you want your life to depend on who was chosen to be the warden of your prison? [/quote]In so much that 'prison' can be extended... we all live lives which depend on the sanity of others beyond our control.
[quote] That you could either be treated with respect or disdain based on that one person and nothing you could do about it either way? [/quote]Everyone already faces that prospect, because the only person to dictate whether they treat you with respect or disdain is... themselves. [quote] The mages are totally at the mercy of the system, and when it decides to show no mercy then they are screwed. [/quote]That's a truism of all systems. You could have laissez-faire no-chantry no-circle system, and the mages are still at the mercy of that system... even if that system is 'people who don't like mages can kill you just the same.' You can take your chances with the authorities that distrust you, or the public that largely fears you.
[quote] That being placed in one circle vs. another can so completely change their quality of life with seemingly no one to care is just sick. [/quote]According to you, life is sick. You just described the fate of birth in nations and families across Earth.
[quote]Can you imagine the horror the Starkhaven mages much have felt on hearing they were being sent to Mereidth's house of horrors?[/quote]Given that the Starkhaven mages were being sent well before Meredith went crazy? Yes. And many of them would have been overstated.
[quote] Do you think no word got to them about rapes and lashings?[/quote]Since Meredith and good Templars didn't know about the rapes? Very much so, unless they were total idiots to not appeal to the system to rectify the abuses being carried against the system.
That the story shows such a difference between the Lake Calenhad circle and Kirkwall is actually good storytelling. The mages lives range from gilded cage to torture chamber at the whim of the Chantry. That is a failing of the circle system, not of story telling.
[quote] The Chantry teaches mages that they have only the value given to them. They have no rights, no freedoms, no safety other than what the Chantry decides to provide. [/quote]Besides that Thedas doesn't even have the concept of human rights, a truism.
[quote]And they have no legal recourse should the Chantry fail to provide it. [/quote]This is a truism of all political institutions, no matter how liberal. [quote] The Chantry teaches that mages are lesser beings by taking them away from their families, in chains if necessary, simply because they were born. [/quote]Some in the Chantry teach this. Some don't.
[quote]The Chantry teaches mages are less than human by threatening to harm their families should they try to help. [/quote]That's so much of a confirmation bias it's funny. [quote] You wouldn't hurt a person for trying to help a wounded dog, but an apostate mage? That's a crime.[/quote]A wounded dog isn't as dangerous to the public as an apostate mage.
[quote] You can see all around you what the Chantry teaches about mages. [/quote]Strangely, it's far more nuanced than you imply. Odd, that.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:28 .
Dean_the_Young wrote... In so much that 'prison' can be extended... we all live lives which depend on the sanity of others beyond our control.
Calling the circle a prison is not much of an extension. Geez, they even house the circle in a prison in Kirkwall. It is a place where they are taken as children and kept unless and until someone decides to let one or two of them out on good behavior. It is a prison. This bears precious little resemblance to the life of an ordinary person.
Everyone already faces that prospect, because the only person to dictate whether they treat you with respect or disdain is... themselves.
Or perhaps, zealots, that come in with an anti-mage bias due to their sister killing her entire family and village, might hate the mages no matter what they do? Are you deliberately missing my point?
That's a truism of all systems. You could have laissez-faire no-chantry no-circle system, and the mages are still at the mercy of that system... even if that system is 'people who don't like mages can kill you just the same.' You can take your chances with the authorities that distrust you, or the public that largely fears you.
The Chantry helps to keep the fire of those fears alive and thus creates a nice little rock and hard place for the mages. It is all part of the same system.
According to you, life is sick. You just described the fate of birth in nations and families across Earth.
I do find it sad that someone's life can be so affected by the accident of their birthplace. That there is so much disparity in quality of life around the globe is a bit sick.
However, for the mages it is no accident. It is deliberate. The Chantry maintains the circles and puts the mages in them and apparently can't be bothered to ensure that they are all as good to the mages as anything so confining could possibly be.
Given that the Starkhaven mages were being sent well before Meredith went crazy? Yes. And many of them would have been overstated.
Meredith was always crazy. Did you hear her backstory? She was a zealot from the beginning. Mages and Tranquil in her care are beaten and raped well before the idol comes into play. She's the Knight Commander, it is her duty to know what's going on and uphold Chantry law. She either fails at her duty, or worse, is truly evil because she knows what's going on and doesn't stop it.
Since Meredith and good Templars didn't know about the rapes? Very much so, unless they were total idiots to not appeal to the system to rectify the abuses being carried against the system.
I think they knew something was amiss, if not the specifics. Even Elthina says she doesn't approve of Meredith's methods. And Cullen remarks that never before have the Templars faced such anger from the populace. Things were bad and people knew it.
A wounded dog isn't as dangerous to the public as an apostate mage.
Been mulling over various things said and going over old codexes and storylines in Orgins and have just argued myself out of some original assertions. Each state in Thedas has different attitudes to people's rights but if you are not of the ruling elite you can generally forget it. The Divine in Orlais would probably do damn all if abuses by Templars against mages were reported to her because the Chantry turns a similar blind eye to abuses by Chevaliers against the peasantry, whether elves or human. Mages have it better in Ferelden precisely because it is Ferelden. Even there, though elves seem to have very little rights. Loghain ranted against abuses by Orlais against humans but was quite happy to sell elves into slavery. In dwarven society, castless children are doomed from birth. May be the dalish have the right idea - keep yourself away from others and on the move as much as possible, because no matter where you settle, someone will probably be in charge who makes things bad for you. For the majority of people, mages or non mages, you simply have to make the best you can in the situation you are in, which is why most free mages tended to just keep their heads down and stay out of trouble. To effect major change, you have to get the majority on your side, not just those in your own interest group, because ultimately if you don't, others will. The Dales was lost not to the humans who originated the conflict but because the Chantry were encouraged to make an Exalted March on them. Whether or not mages achieve their freedom will entirely depend on who else they can get on their side and if they can find a strong enough leadership to hold the cause together. I presume this is where the Champion comes in because whether you took the Templar side or the Mages, they are hoping to influence you to maintain the status quo as far as their power is concerned and restore some stability.
The next dragon age title will obviously be continuing this them and at some point I think the "Search for the True Prophet" tome is going to come up again because that was meant to suggest that Andraste was really a powerful mage who challenged the magisters and ultimately lost, and that the Chantry later altered the tale. I had also forgotten until I re-read the codex but the Chantry faith actually began in Tevinter or so they claim but was then developed in Orlais.
If I'm the leader of the group, as Hawke or the Warden are the leaders, I have the authority to dispense corporal punishment.[/quote]
Ahh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant real life. I'm a bit sensitive on the issue after meeting too many women who think "men shouldn't hit women" means they have carte blanche to assult without reprocussions. Most fun was my ex-fiancee's mother, who thought it was her divine right to smack everyone not following her idea of perfect manners.
[quote]I didn't want to either. Who wants to linger in that kind of crap, right? I had a panic attack both times just proof-reading it. But the only way I thought I could make you understand was to rip the scabs off and bleed all over your screen-- figuratively. I didn't want the flippant remarks or what have you. If you really couldn't see where I'm coming from, you had to see where I'm standing at least.[/quote]
Gah. Internet debates aren't important enough to open up old wounds like that. The opinion of a random person on the Internet is never worth suffering over.
[quote]Now that you do I think it may make understanding what I see (and how I reacted to it) easier even if you don't agree. Far as giving Cullen free liscense-- I never have. Not once. I've only applauded his very real motions towards being a good person again (slow and small up until the last they were). I expect his own guilt is eating away at him as well from his comments about the chained apprentice (as mine did quietly at first and then built up into a roar that made me physically ill). And it ends up being a combination of the guilt and the remorse and such that moves you forward and makes changes.[/quote]
The only time I ever saw him do or say anything positive for the mages is sparing that group during the RoA. And I don't consider it big to not execute people literally begging to have their surrender taken. His questioning of Meredith before the Annulment was over her usurping the Viscount's seat. And afterward it was because she wanted to kill Hawke, who for some reason Cullen thinks is awesome no matter how you play him/her.
[quote]I fully expect to go to hell if there is one, even as sorry as I am over the things I did, because part of forgiveness is being able to let things go and I can't do that with things I've done myself. I'm tormented whenever I have a quiet moment and rarely sleep without nightmares.[/quote]
Hell's just another example of people using fear to control through religion. And oneself is always the hardest to forgive. I'm sure you've heard it before, but you should see if professional help wouldn't help with the nightmares and such. Nobody should have to endure that.
[quote]Alrighty, I've kind of gone over this in the enslaved thread with other people but I'll make a light condensed version here for discussion's sake. If a man buys the Chantry doctrine for altruistic reasons (much like a mage turning themselves into the Circle because they believe they are poisoned)-- and then joins the Order is just as lied to as that mage that stupidly turned themselves in to the Circle (and certainly you don't advocate not freeing people who turned themselves in willingly). He deserves to be free. If he is raised by the Chantry and has been lied to his entire life, and is made a Templar, he deserves to be free (just like a mage raised by the Circle). If he joined the Order because he needed coin, only to find out later that it is a horrific mess and that his hands will be involved in the subjugation of innocent people so long as the Chantry can hold lyrium over his head-- he deserves to be free.[/quote]
I was under the impression the lyrium addiction thing was common knowledge in Thedas. And it's debatable whether it's necessary. Until a dev clears it up for certain there'll be debate on whether Alistair's story was just a convient way for DAO players to not deal with the lyrium requirement and addiction. Same with how Hawke covers it by a line in the class description saying s/he gets it from black market connections (thanks Varric). And really, how many soldiers of any army are fully informed and willing? Even now a good number of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are there because they believed a stupid commerical saying "Sign up and we'll pay for your college! We won't send you to a giant sandbox to get shot at by terrorists! Promise!" And that's still more choice than the countless soldiers that were simply conscripted got.
[quote]The Templar situation is insanely complex because you have this group of people who are terribly oppressed who are actively being made to oppress other innocent people by a third party (who uses them both like disposable tools) through chemical means.[/quote]
The templars are "terribly oppressed" while the mages are only oppressed. Right.
[quote]It doesn't matter that the Templars descended from vigilantes and the Mages of today have little relation to the magisters of old--- whatever they were once, they are slaves now, and a shorter timespan doesn't make oppressing the Templars any more righteous than it does the mages.[/quote]
We clearly have different definitions of "oppressed." And I still haven't heard a templar complain about how badly templars are treated by the Chantry or expressing a wish to leave but not being able to. Hell, Keran simply walked out on the Order in Act III.
[quote]Basically I can sum it up in the statement: the Orlesian Chantry is corrupt beyond saving (even though I don't feel the faith should share this demonization as the Guardian seemed to be a decent enough entity and the point of Andraste's march was a good one. Lots of admirable things in there before people started mucking with it).[/quote]
And there we agree.
[quote]The more I talk to Elthina the more I am convinced that she is playing Meredith and Orsino for her own benefit (especially in public). If she screws up in Kirkwall and retreats (which will result in an exalted march) she won't be Grand Cleric anymore (and I do believe that some part of her may believe that she's doing the best for the man on the street-- but mostly I think it's pride and her genuine lack of concern for her own Templars, and definitely for the mages. Neither are people, after all.). When the dust settles and the survivors are counted, it'll be someone else in the high seat because she's proven herself unable to perform her duties and someone's going to say "Hey, wars cost money and we just lost a lot of our expensive slaves and made the survivors in Kirkwall hate us because this woman is an idiot. She needs to be retired" (I'd say killed, but then that would make the Divine look worse than she does already in that scenario). As I've said before, she does not act like someone who loves peace (and definitely not like someone who loves freedom).[/quote]
That reminds me of some musing a while back over the idea that maybe the Chantry higher up's (including Elthina and of course the Divine) knew perfectly well that the veil in Kirkwall would drive the mages nuts and they put the Circle there on purpose. It certainly helps support their case. Even real people who know the whole story are buying into the Chantry's crap. Just look at all the Orsino hate over Quentin. I flatly refuse to believe he would be getting even a fraction of the heat he's getting if Quentin didn't kill part of Hawke's family. But that's another subject. =/
[quote]I would love to play Ghandi, to make my peaceful revolution, but since the game does not allow that I must instead make a similar choice to Anders in hopes for freedom. If we must look at my decision to support the Templars as anything-- let it be my own Chantry explosion. The fallout from that building is going to hurt and kill lots of people Anders has never seen. And any innocent in the building was placed on the pyre of the revolution by him. He paid for freedom in blood- even his own. For me, the Circle of Mages in Kirkwall was the price I was willing to pay to have a foothold in getting the Templars and the rest of the mages (because I am not ever letting that happen again if I have a choice in the matter) loose from the Chantry (if possible. I live in hope, especially after Cassandra thinks Hawke can stop it all)-- because I couldn't see a way from what I was given, to do it the other way round.[/quote]
I don't see how you can condemn Anders for killing innocents and then turn right around and do it.
[quote]That outcome stops all possible exalted marches on Ferelden, on Kirkwall, it potentially puts the mages and Templars (after some culling -in one form or another- in the Templar ranks to get rid of the lunatics.) safely in secular hands.[/quote]
Secular hands?
[quote]Sometimes talking about real-world problems does help. If more people did it, it might help even more. But you are right-- it's much more pleasurable to discuss fictional problems that one can dismiss at the end.[/quote]
Well I guess it depends on the problem. Personal problems, sometimes. Full-fledged society failures like the ones we're discussing about DA? That's just depressing.
That was kind of you, Gavrielkay. I don't know what else to say.
GavrielKay wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote... In so much that 'prison' can be extended... we all live lives which depend on the sanity of others beyond our control.
Calling the circle a prison is not much of an extension. Geez, they even house the circle in a prison in Kirkwall. It is a place where they are taken as children and kept unless and until someone decides to let one or two of them out on good behavior. It is a prison. This bears precious little resemblance to the life of an ordinary person.
Everyone already faces that prospect, because the only person to dictate whether they treat you with respect or disdain is... themselves.
Or perhaps, zealots, that come in with an anti-mage bias due to their sister killing her entire family and village, might hate the mages no matter what they do? Are you deliberately missing my point?
That's a truism of all systems. You could have laissez-faire no-chantry no-circle system, and the mages are still at the mercy of that system... even if that system is 'people who don't like mages can kill you just the same.' You can take your chances with the authorities that distrust you, or the public that largely fears you.
The Chantry helps to keep the fire of those fears alive and thus creates a nice little rock and hard place for the mages. It is all part of the same system.
According to you, life is sick. You just described the fate of birth in nations and families across Earth.
I do find it sad that someone's life can be so affected by the accident of their birthplace. That there is so much disparity in quality of life around the globe is a bit sick.
However, for the mages it is no accident. It is deliberate. The Chantry maintains the circles and puts the mages in them and apparently can't be bothered to ensure that they are all as good to the mages as anything so confining could possibly be.
Given that the Starkhaven mages were being sent well before Meredith went crazy? Yes. And many of them would have been overstated.
Meredith was always crazy. Did you hear her backstory? She was a zealot from the beginning. Mages and Tranquil in her care are beaten and raped well before the idol comes into play. She's the Knight Commander, it is her duty to know what's going on and uphold Chantry law. She either fails at her duty, or worse, is truly evil because she knows what's going on and doesn't stop it.
Since Meredith and good Templars didn't know about the rapes? Very much so, unless they were total idiots to not appeal to the system to rectify the abuses being carried against the system.
I think they knew something was amiss, if not the specifics. Even Elthina says she doesn't approve of Meredith's methods. And Cullen remarks that never before have the Templars faced such anger from the populace. Things were bad and people knew it.
A wounded dog isn't as dangerous to the public as an apostate mage.
And that opinion pretty much says it all.
@ Dean
Even the Circle in Ferelden is a prison-- and I think Greagoir is one awesome dude and believe him to be an exemplar among his fellow Templars. He's still the warden of a prison even if he does his best to make it like a home and cares for his charges.
Not everyone is Davy Crockett-- who spent most of his young life fighting Native Americans after they killed his family-- and then turned around in Congress and fought for the rights of Native Americans so they wouldn't be tempted into such violent actions and were protected under the law. Meredith certainly is no Ser David of Crockett.
The Orlesian Chantry is evil. It's like the Imperium never left-- just changed clothes and cast the mages under the wheels with the elves (and eventually the Templars as well).
I don't get the accident of place thing either. The quality of life, across the board, in different places may be better or worse-- but mages, no matter to what family they belong or where they come from, within the reach of the Orlesian Chantry are all treated like crap. It's an artificial thing.
Meredith even kills her own Templar recruits-- although not all the Templars are aware of this. (Cullen, most notably, who seems to be kept in the dark about a lot of things --- probably because he's from Kinloch Hold and Freemarchers are not kindly towards people from Ferelden --- unlike Thrask, the initiates -one of them dies- and some other things you can hear in ambient conversation in the Gallows) Meredith was a big bag of crazy long before the idol got to her. The idol just made it worse.
The good Templars were concerned because people were going missing, recruits are being abused, the city was turning against them for reasons they couldn't understand (not being in on the whole torture business that Meredith's pet Templars got up to--- and while she didn't know what Alrik was doing, by the note, he's mentioned as one of her favorites by Thrask), and Meredith's orders for action against the mages were becoming increasingly horrific. They were so concerned Thrask was organizing an armed rebellion to kill Meredith and take control of the Gallows by force because Elthina wouldn't listen to them. Thrask went to Elthina. Cullen went to Elthina. I even think it's said somewhere that Emeric went to Elthina. Elthina laments about Meredith but does absolutely nothing to help these men, and certainly nothing to help the mages.
You have got to be kidding me, Dean. A person with a weapon is dangerous, that doesn't mean you get to abuse them because they're armed.
This is almost funny. Meredith who takes over a city-state, allows Templars in her employ to get ideas about Tranquiling every mage, is so incompetent that she doesn't realize mages are being raped and beaten (or she does know which is even worse) and finally wants to murder them all because of something someone else did is better than Orsino who supported Quentin only by sending research materials and then, in fear for his own life as well as his charges, didn't tell the paranoid zealot once he found out what was really going on?
Are those rose colored glasses or beer goggles?
Didn't you get the memo? Orsino's crimes are nine billion times worse because one of the women Quentin killed was the PC's mother. Orsino is clearly worse than Gilles de Rais because Hawke's pathetic excuse of a mother may or may not have died because of his inaction. The hordes of mages who Orsino would risk by reporting Quentin and Meredith later murders anyway? Screw them, they're not Leandra. Plus, you're not innocent if you can light a candle obviously.
Isn't that because mages are exploding kittens who are only innocent of being mages? I find it a little odd that people would villify Orsino because of Quentin. Meredith clearly didn't like mages: her administration has two close templars that rape mages, one templar tortures a child hunter of the Dalish, a group of her templars are ready to murder a woman for giving her tortured mage cousin food, and mages are being made tranquil against Chantry law. What could Orsino do, especially since Grand Cleric Elthina was doing nothing?
Also, considering that Gascard is looking for Quentin in the Starkhaven Circle (according to the note in his mansion), isn't Quentin a shining example of how the Chantry controlled Circles can push mages to the breaking point, which we can see with two other Starkhaven mages: Decimus and Grace? Couldn't the Chantry and the templars be held responsible for Leandra's death if their actions lead to the insane serial killer Quentin?
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)[/quote]
What I was trying to say earlier is that a lot of people are creepy now and again. A lot of people are obsessed over different things. That doesn't make them all dangerous. If I beleived that I'd hide in my bed 24-7 with the lights off.
Secular hands?
