49 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

for all the trouble for having a circle of magi what is the purpose for the circles?  I read the wikis and found nothing on their purpose.  Are mages used to exert control over the population?  why not put to sword and tranquil people who are magic users? 

Im not against magic users, I just do not understand chantry point of view on it.

If Chantry views magic as dangerous than why foster it?  Shepards kill wolves to protect the flock, not raise wolves with the flock and hire other shepards to watch wolves.

[Torax]

The Circles have a few things about them.

1. It protects the public from the dangers a mage can posses.

2. It protects the mages from the dangers that the public can present via superstition and paranoia. Especially a young child who was born a mage.

3. It allows the mages to be taught by older experienced mages like them instead of being forced to go their lives without training or experimenting. Even Anders points out that most who live their lives outside of the Circle rarely learn much about magic.

Now there are exceptions to this in many areas of Thedas, keep in mind that Morrigan is an exception. The Keepers of the Dalish are taught by the Keepers who came before them and are all magic users. There are Seers and shaman in Thedas who are also the heads of their tribes/clans. Lastly to fear magic is one thing. People will always be born as mages so you could continue to attempt to kill them all but more will come.

For the last thing to consider.

4. Magic has it's uses.

The Qunari even acknowledge that magic has it's uses. Mages have been part of the greater defense in the Blights as well. As is sited by even Anders at one point. 2 mages helped the hero in Origins and that is not including if the Hero was a mage as well. This is not a world were guns are common place and the Qunari much like the dwarves hold their explosives tightly. That is where giant fire balls come into play and that is a mage thing.

[dragonflight288]

Because mages are people with feelings, with families that may be nobles that are attached to them. A mage child is usually never identified until they are around 6-8 years old. That is plenty of time for a family to grow attached. Even if there are family members who would just as soon kill their child than raise it because of magic or gender (story of Aveline the Brave)

Essentially if you are for killing every mage when they are discovered, you are supporting templars breaking into the homes of hundreds of families, some may be nobles, and murdering children who may not have done anything wrong beyond taking a cookie out of the cookie jar.

[HTTP 404]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Because mages are people with feelings, with families that may be nobles that are attached to them. A mage child is usually never identified until they are around 6-8 years old. That is plenty of time for a family to grow attached. Even if there are family members who would just as soon kill their child than raise it because of magic or gender (story of Aveline the Brave)

Essentially if you are for killing every mage when they are discovered, you are supporting templars breaking into the homes of hundreds of families, some may be nobles, and murdering children who may not have done anything wrong beyond taking a cookie out of the cookie jar.

Im not supporting the killing or tranquiling of mages.  I am talking about the Chantry point of view.  Why pay so much to run circles?  why have mages?  And if so, why so many should be kept around?  The killing of mages would be the extreme solution but tranquiling could be propaganda'd into being a civil solution

[HTTP 404]

Torax, I understand what they(circles) do. What I do not know, is why do Chantry have circles?

If the Chantry sees a use in magic such as healing, then why keep so many mages around for that?

once again, I do not support the chantry. I am trying to understand their point of view

Also I do not doubt the purpose of magic for the Dalish and the Qunari.  I doubt the purpose of magic for the Chantry

Modifié par HTTP 404, 18 juillet 2011 - 02:28 .

[Torax]

Also the Chantry may not "pay" as much as you may think to run the Circles. The Runed items that the Tranquil make is where most of the funding comes from for the Circles themselves. They also have their own Gardens where most of their food is generated. Not to mention that magic offers it's own benefits. To a point it seems to hint at the Circles as being far more self sustaining than you may think.

Edited to add.

All through the history of Thedas and even in Fereldin it'self. Magic has been one of the greater forces in battle. Defending kingdoms. Fighting along side kings to stem the tides of evil. There were magic users along side both King Maric & Loghain. Even the tribes that fought along side Andraste had magic users. The leaders of many of those Clans today are likely still Magic Users. The History has taught majority of the World in Thedas that magic is in part Evil but has also fought against Evil for just as long. Part of the reason they'd have to protect them is just because those that are powerless generally fear the powerful. So killing a 7 year old child for accidently burning down the toolshed when they accidently stepped on a nail? Well that is a geater part of it.

TLDR. Andraste had Magic Users helping her battle Tevinter. Why would it be any different now? Besides the outlandish plot of Anders some how starting a World War in premise.

Modifié par Torax, 18 juillet 2011 - 02:44 .

[Icy Magebane]

I think it would be hard to base a continent-wide religion on murdering children simply because they are mages... think of the PR nightmare! They need a way to contain magic with as few pointless casualties as possible.

Besides, look at it from the other side... you start trying to wipe people out en masse, and you're sure as hell going to have rebellion on your hands. Let's say that this is the new policy they institute. How many families are going to agree to that? How many mages would just wind up finding a way into Tevinter, thus making the Orlesians' ancient enemy that much stronger? No... the way they do it now is at least lenient enough that they keep mages off the streets but don't ****** everyone off to the point that things blow up in their faces...

Well, at least that worked for the centuries before DA2...

[HTTP 404]

both good points!... perhaps from DA2, I get the feeling that running a circle is much more than its worth.

Also, the killing of mages wouldn't come down to it unless they are a danger. You forget to address the tranquil "solution" (which I do not agree with) but an uneducated mass could see palatable through propoganda.

[Icy Magebane]

@HTTP 404 - As ignorant as peasants tend to be, I just find it hard to believe that they'd willingly allow their relatives to be treated like this (killed or tranquilized). The alternative at least gives the appearance of a humane option, even if it's open to abuse from Templars (like in Kirkwall). I would assume this is why the Right of Annulment is acceptable by the majority of Thedas... like you said, it only happens if mages become too dangerous and threaten the common good, and there's more than enough warning on what mages can and cannot do. They violate the law, they pay the price.

Propaganda is a powerful tool, however... I guess it's at least feasible that you could "sell" the Tranquil Solution to the masses, but then you still need to worry about the mages themselves wondering why that's suddenly the only way to deal with them. I'm not exactly sure when that was invented, but I assume the Circles came first, then they realized how to make mages tranquil. After so many years, I don't see it as possible to introduce the Tranquil Solution without a full-scale uprising.

Um... let me just add a disclaimer:  I do not support the Tranquil Solution.  I'm just speaking hypethetically.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 18 juillet 2011 - 03:39 .

[Torax]

The Tranquil Solution is a moot subject anyway. No one seemed to support him on it. Meredith & Elthina said no. Why he was resorting to try and get the Divine to overrule his superiors...

[dragonflight288]

Let me try and put it simply. The chantry is a huge religious powerhouse. They were organized maybe a century AFTER Andraste's death (don't quote me, but a significant amount of time had passed).

They had taken her words and translated them to suit their needs. They are incredibly powerful who derive their power from the religious belief of the common man. If they killed every mage they found, most of Thedas would quickly turn against them. But by tolerating magic (barely) they can say they are allowing mages a setting to learn magic safely, keep mages safe from fanatic civilians (thus appeasing families).

The chantry can't tranquilize every single mage either (despite Alrik's suggestions) because then they would have lost a very valuable resource in war (still don't get why Ostagar only had seven mages there though). Mages have made a huge difference in the wars against the darkspawn and the Qunari. A tranquil has no power to draw on, and no emotions and so would make poor tutors to the apprentices.

Because of this, the chantry has to follow a very fine line when it comes to mages, a line that was begging to be crossed by all sides. The Templars have way too much authority over mages, but mages have a butt load of power to unleash. A single mage can take out an entire platoon of soldiers from a distance, if trained properly. Take away a mages rights, eventually people will get upset. Give templars too much authority, and abuses are going to happen. Period.

There are always bad eggs in a group. Only the bad eggs of the mages give the common man sufficient fear of mages to give templars power, and when templars have power they use it. And when they use it, mages become desperate and commit desperate acts. Give it a good millennium and suddenly you have Kirkwall. A poweder-keg just waiting to explode.

The Chantry won't give mages freedoms because it takes away their power. If the mages try to force their freedom, they make templars seem like good guys to the commoners.

[HTTP 404]

if you make it part of religion to make it ok to control mage, wouldn't you think that would be enough?

[dragonflight288]

No. Because mages like the libertarians would never accept it. Then you garner abominations and blood magic into the mix and BOOM, you have the perfect recipe for things blowing up in the Chantry's face. Hence the need for templars. Only, the templars were given way too much authority and power.

And when you have mages like the loyalists kowtowing to the templars because some Revered Mother respects them, libertarians preaching templar-hate, Lucrosians wanting nothing more than to make money, isolationists wanting isolation, the templars can easily call anyone not in the circle a danger because they see so much infighting among the mages (plus abominations and blood magic)

The mages may also have connections to powerful and important nobles. Nobles who may see more advantages to keeping a secret mage in their family than an open one in the circle. The chantry simply can't teach that mages are servants of templars or the chantry because that would undermine all their other teachings about free will and the maker. So they teach mages are cursed and should be locked away, simply because it is too dangerous to them politically not too.

Thing is, that kind of system won't work long-term without a strong military force to keep the mages who feel oppressed down. So they keep a strong force through the templars. And insure they keep the force by having all templars addicted to lyrium.

It's a very delicate political maneuver the Chantry is playing, and as we saw in DA2, one that couldn't sustain itself and blew up.

[HTTP 404]

dragonflight288 wrote...

No. Because mages like the libertarians would never accept it. Then you garner abominations and blood magic into the mix and BOOM, you have the perfect recipe for things blowing up in the Chantry's face. Hence the need for templars. Only, the templars were given way too much authority and power.

And when you have mages like the loyalists kowtowing to the templars because some Revered Mother respects them, libertarians preaching templar-hate, Lucrosians wanting nothing more than to make money, isolationists wanting isolation, the templars can easily call anyone not in the circle a danger because they see so much infighting among the mages (plus abominations and blood magic)

The mages may also have connections to powerful and important nobles. Nobles who may see more advantages to keeping a secret mage in their family than an open one in the circle. The chantry simply can't teach that mages are servants of templars or the chantry because that would undermine all their other teachings about free will and the maker. So they teach mages are cursed and should be locked away, simply because it is too dangerous to them politically not too.

Thing is, that kind of system won't work long-term without a strong military force to keep the mages who feel oppressed down. So they keep a strong force through the templars. And insure they keep the force by having all templars addicted to lyrium.

It's a very delicate political maneuver the Chantry is playing, and as we saw in DA2, one that couldn't sustain itself and blew up.

your talking about an existing system would oppose it.  My question is why let current existing system begin in the first place?   No mages, no templar order to act like prison guards, and no sub groups of mages.  Heck knowledge of being a mage could be controlled by the chantry and make it seem all mages are suciptible to demons.

The best argument I see and given by some here which I appreciate. I can probably see circles being created to appease the masses so to speak but I have a few qualms about this.  The Chantry does have the ability to shape people's viewpoints and the ability to have weight with politics (think Catholic Church in Medieval society) and could create a popular belief that those who practice magic are not human, elf, etc. but demon possessed individuals.  Also the masses is given to much credit here.  If people dislike something going on in their society, most likely they will not rebel otherwise we would never have a sustained government.  Most people are gonna go about their business.  That being said, people in a feadulistic society have little to no power to nobles, royalty, and even Chantry authority to have a voice.

The best case I can think of for the Chantry in creating circles is that 1 in 5 persons are magic users, thus it would not seem feasible to kill/tranquil thousands of people every day in Thedas.  but the flip side is, why house them and watch that many people?  If royalty or nobility have a child that is a magic user, then exceptions could be made to train and teach the few.  Far better to control a population of mages that number a dozen or so across thedas than it is to control a population that looks to be in the thousands across thedas.

1.  find magic potentials (the same way they find it for the circle)
2.  royal, noble potentials from around the realm are taken to one tower to study (my guess would number to a two dozen or so) 
3.  common or people of less import mage potentials to be also found and made tranquil
4.  Older and more dangerous mages are put down
5.  money can still be made from magical items made from the mage few but with an inflated price as the supply decrease, demand increases.

This way, those in power are still appeased while controlling a mage population.  is it nice? IMO, no it is not.  But can you really ask yourself, is the Chantry nice?

[Torax]

The most important thing to remember is.

1. Tevinter and the Qunari all use magic in their Wars.

2. Not as fortified to defend as the Dwarves who do use explosives.

3. Better to train living weapons than kill them and lose out on their potential in warfare. Risky but far worth it.

It's not a stable World. Every Age is broken into series of Wars. If the Chantry stopped using magic, they'd be forced to train every soldier to be a Templar. While that maybe possible, the enemy will kill many before they'd ever be in range to actually harm the mages. Arrows are nice but they don't have the spread and overall devastation of so many spells. So in a place where you could invaded twice in a single life time? You may want some mages who are willing to help defend your location.

Edited to add.

Potions are all well and good. But "Healing Magic" is in fact Magic used by Mages. So yeah you try waging war without Healers. In a World that has never heard of Neosporin, Band-Aids and so on. So yeah. Lets kill all our mages while our biggest threats do not. Hell even the Darkspawn have some that use magic...

Modifié par Torax, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:39 .

[HTTP 404]

Torax wrote...

The most important thing to remember is.

1. Tevinter and the Qunari all use magic in their Wars.

2. Not as fortified to defend as the Dwarves who do use explosives.

3. Better to train living weapons than kill them and lose out on their potential in warfare. Risky but far worth it.

It's not a stable World. Every Age is broken into series of Wars. If the Chantry stopped using magic, they'd be forced to train every soldier to be a Templar. While that maybe possible, the enemy will kill many before they'd ever be in range to actually harm the mages. Arrows are nice but they don't have the spread and overall devastation of so many spells. So in a place where you could invaded twice in a single life time? You may want some mages who are willing to help defend your location.

Edited to add.

Potions are all well and good. But "Healing Magic" is in fact Magic used by Mages. So yeah you try waging war without Healers. In a World that has never heard of Neosporin, Band-Aids and so on. So yeah. Lets kill all our mages while our biggest threats do not. Hell even the Darkspawn have some that use magic...

This is a very good point!    This is a good reason (warfare) to have mages around.  I did say some mages could be used in a very small controlled population like a healer.  And potions are all well and good.  Have you played a playthough without heal spell?  I have. 

The problem here is that point is hardly addressed in the games, using mages kind of like how qunari use the Sarebaas in warfare.  However, in the wiki it states that the circle do not involve themselves in conflicts except with blights and there is no mention of mages from the circle used in a war purposefully by the Chantry.  And if its just blights why not just let the wardens take mages on their own?

Modifié par HTTP 404, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:47 .

[Torax]

Supposedly Wilhelm fought along side with Shale to help King Maric. Even tested him twice to make sure he was who he claimed to be. King can ask the mages for aid even without blights. A can ask for aid from the Circle in their region. The key to it is a few things. Not all regions even have Kings. So it's likely a case by case basis. While the Circle may not fully endorse that doesn't mean they will not aid when called by the King of their region...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Orlesian Circle also sent mages to help the Usurper against Maric's rebellion, so I think it's safe to say mages are not only used during Blights.

With regards to the sarebaas, I think a dev said somewhere that the qunari only started using their mages in war because of the Tevinter Imperium. Fighting fire with fire, as it were.

[MichaelFinnegan]

HTTP 404 wrote...

for all the trouble for having a circle of magi what is the purpose for the circles?  I read the wikis and found nothing on their purpose.  Are mages used to exert control over the population?  why not put to sword and tranquil people who are magic users?

Perhaps it started out as a humane thing.

Looking at the aftermath of what happened with the ancient Tevinter Imperium, I can envision that mages in the immediately following years of its defeat perhaps were considered a threat to the general populace, perhaps even to themselves. This would have caused the populace, one example being the order known at that time as the Inquisition, to distrust and perhaps even hunt down mages. The Chantry (we need to remember that the Chantry has been run by different individuals, perhaps with different agendas over the ages) apparently convinced the order to join under their banner (to form the templar order) and perhaps even convinced the mages to join in as well. I could imagine at the time how persuasive the arguments might have been, something to the effect of "this is perhaps best for everyone." Thus perhaps the Circle of Magi came to be, where mages would be looked after by their custodians and charges, the templars, with the Chantry being the grand overseer.

That I'd imagine would have been the "original" purpose or reason - if there was indeed such a thing. And, as we know, things change over the ages, they morph and somehow lose their meaning. Memories fade and the atrocities of the past (if the Imperium was indeed behind all that) are left behind. And power corrupts the charges, and abuses become more prevalent. And mages over time would start questioning why indeed they'd need to tolerate any of it - and for good reason one might say.

Im not against magic users, I just do not understand chantry point of view on it.

If Chantry views magic as dangerous than why foster it?  Shepards kill wolves to protect the flock, not raise wolves with the flock and hire other shepards to watch wolves.

The creation of the Circles of Magi was a thing of the past, and reasons that could have been attributed to its creation then might not hold true in the present. Over time, as others have pointed out, the Chantry would have come to see mages as powerful assets - to combat the blights, for its Exhalted Marches, and so on. They'd not just tranquil their assets that way.

I do not know if my arguments were convincing, though. They make some sense to me, when I think about it.

[HTTP 404]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The creation of the Circles of Magi was a thing of the past, and reasons that could have been attributed to its creation then might not hold true in the present. Over time, as others have pointed out, the Chantry would have come to see mages as powerful assets - to combat the blights, for its Exhalted Marches, and so on. They'd not just tranquil their assets that way.

I do not know if my arguments were convincing, though. They make some sense to me, when I think about it.

They do make sense.  

I could possibly see the first circle being a haven for tevinter mages given by a charitable chantry at the time.  But to go through all those centuries without change or conflict till Da2? it just seems unbelievable to me, why now?

I just wish in the games they would talk more of the history of the circles because it just seems to me and probably most gamers that circles exist just to exist. Especially since the oaverarching plot in DA2 is about mages and templars.  If history was talked about a little more about the circles about past start up rebellions or Divines in the past wanting circles abolished, etc.  It would shed more light on the mage plight over the centuries instead of taking Ander's word for it.

[HTTP 404]

Torax wrote...

Supposedly Wilhelm fought along side with Shale to help King Maric. Even tested him twice to make sure he was who he claimed to be. King can ask the mages for aid even without blights. A can ask for aid from the Circle in their region. The key to it is a few things. Not all regions even have Kings. So it's likely a case by case basis. While the Circle may not fully endorse that doesn't mean they will not aid when called by the King of their region...

yes, this is true and it would appear that royalty can have access to their local circle.  But more often than not, it would seem that most mages spend their whole lives couped up in a tower and not sent on assignment nor sent to combat something.  A sword left in its scabbard so to speak.  Since it appears that they are used in war so sparingly I still must argue why have so many mages?  why not just a dozen mages in every circle?

[Rifneno]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think the simple answer is "they're dishonest." The way they do things now, up until DA2, they had two incredibly powerful armies at their beck and call. The mages and templars combined are the most powerful force in Thedas. Look at the Qunari invasion. With superior technology and bodies that are far stronger and tougher, the Qunari were slowly but very surely taking over Thedas. No one was able to mount a significant offense... until the Chantry called an exalted march and sent its trump card in. They pushed back the Qunari line until the Qunari were forced to truce. That is an incredible accomplishment by an incredible military power. And I believe that power is why the Chantry has run the Circle system the way it has.

[HTTP 404]

Rifneno wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think the simple answer is "they're dishonest." The way they do things now, up until DA2, they had two incredibly powerful armies at their beck and call. The mages and templars combined are the most powerful force in Thedas. Look at the Qunari invasion. With superior technology and bodies that are far stronger and tougher, the Qunari were slowly but very surely taking over Thedas. No one was able to mount a significant offense... until the Chantry called an exalted march and sent its trump card in. They pushed back the Qunari line until the Qunari were forced to truce. That is an incredible accomplishment by an incredible military power. And I believe that power is why the Chantry has run the Circle system the way it has.

Its pretty much true a combined templar mage army would be a force to be reckoned with.   But circle mages and templar being the reason for success in Exalted Marches is never told, just implied.

I guess my point is, there isn't enough explanation in game for the purpose of having circles and needing to read in between the lines and grasp at obscure facts to find them especially when the main plot in Da2 is about the mage plight.  In DA:O I never really bothered with this question because it wasn't about the mages and templars it was about the blight and the past bilights mentioned historically explaining/supporting current blight situation.  Now I come into DA2 all I know is that mages are oppressed and templars are the oppressors without much backstory to how this came to be.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:56 .

[Torax]

Kirkwall is an extreme case keep in mind. One that they took far too much liberty on story line wise. Simply put.

Magic has it's uses. The Towers are for the most self sustaining. Forces of Thedas were using Magic long before the Chantry was founded. So they weren't about to kill every mage. Unless they were wanting to doom themselves to failure against all other neighbors in times of war. It doesn't have to be some vindictive plot by the Chantry. It could have been started by tradition that just stretched it'self over time and just like there are those Templars who are wrong and unjust? There are Mages who are just as bad I'm sure. So to a point, both sides can justify the enemies arguments. Granted that also leaves a ton of innocent Templars & Mages who mean well and try to help each other all the time. Just because it's bad in the Free Marches doesn't mean it's that way in Orlais, Fereldon and so on. Not everything is extremes besides on the forums because it's the internet.

Modifié par Torax, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:10 .

[maxernst]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think the simple answer is "they're dishonest." The way they do things now, up until DA2, they had two incredibly powerful armies at their beck and call. The mages and templars combined are the most powerful force in Thedas. Look at the Qunari invasion. With superior technology and bodies that are far stronger and tougher, the Qunari were slowly but very surely taking over Thedas. No one was able to mount a significant offense... until the Chantry called an exalted march and sent its trump card in. They pushed back the Qunari line until the Qunari were forced to truce. That is an incredible accomplishment by an incredible military power. And I believe that power is why the Chantry has run the Circle system the way it has.

Its pretty much true a combined templar mage army would be a force to be reckoned with.   But circle mages and templar being the reason for success in Exalted Marches is never told, just implied.

Except that they really only have the circle mages available to them if they're loyal.  So from a Chantry strategy point of view, the Ferelden Circle where mages are kept in relatively luxurious surroundings makes more sense than the extremely oppressive Kirkwall Circle.  As far as supporting the circles, I would guess that in addition to selling goods from the Tranquil, they provide healing services to the nobility (Isolde had mages looking at Eamon).  I wouldn't be surprised if noble families with mage children make donations to the Circles to keep them in comfort and in return for visitation rights.

If I were the Divine, I'd see the Kirkwall mess as an opportunity to scapegoat Merdith and Elthina who are both conveniently dead, and push for more direct oversight of the Circles.  She could position herself as doing it to prevent Templar abuses and protect the mages while in effect gaining more power and influence over the Circles.  I think a lot of the Loyalist and Aequitarian mages would buy into it if she played her cards right.