358 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

Except I don't think you could have done anything to 'stop the Reapers' at the time. There was quite literally nothing you could do because there was nothing really out there. Object Rho was sort of run into if memory serves.

I think the Collector's were actually important in some way, the fact that they were eventually tied to the Reaper threat was sort of a nice bow on top, but even if it wasn't, it was still necessary to stop them.

Indoctrinated TIM is just too convenient imo.

[armass]

I agree that Cerberus has been kinda overused.

[alperez]

Arijharn wrote...

Because saving himself at the expense of everything else doesn't make him morally gray? It conforms to your expectations of his character.

If he does those things but at some point realises he's doing it and then tries to counter-balance it (even though it's going to be for naught in the end because he can't stop the process) then he becomes more sympathetic. You get to put your bullet in his head and make yourself happy, but you can't say: "Oh, TIM is a villain through and through."

Categorization of anything (even the Reapers) I think is a no-no, because there is no such thing as black and white morality imo.

All i was doing was trying to show a scenario so of course any scenario i show would conform to my expectations of the character.

In the scenario i suggest there is also enough room to play around a bit more and make TIM more sympathetic and less tragic, simply by changing he's been trying to save himself all along to by saving humanity he would also save himself.

The problem is that somewhere along the line Cerberus fans seem to have got it into their heads that TIM and Cerberus will actually be portrayed as hero's in all of this, that the role they were created to play was the role that Cerberus fans want them to play.

Despite any evidence to the contrary, despite anything that might contradict their own views on Cerberus or Tim they're convinced that Cerberus will be revealed as ultimately heroic even though this series is not about Cerberus or TIM so why would they be shown as anything other than obstacles or antagonists if thats the role they were created to play?

I'm not suggesting i have the full story or that my own take on events is right, all i'm trying to do is offer a counterpoint to those who suggest that their view is right and anything else is completely wrong and that anyone who disagrees is being idiotic.

We may very well get a more complex version of why cerberus are doing what they seem to be doing, it could very well be something that will blow our minds completely, i just feel that the way things have been set up it makes more sense that we won't.

Instead we'll get the usual black and white villiany we've come to expect and if that's the case then i feel there's at least room in my scenario to explain it.
Personally i would like more complexity but people tend not to do complexity too much in most mediums these days and instead usually resort to black and white morality as you put it.

Making TIM evil personified from the beginning seems more likely imo than making him a tragic figure or a misguided one, i hope i'm wrong on it but that's usually the way these things play out to appeal to the masses.

[alperez]

Arijharn wrote...

Indoctrinated TIM is just too convenient imo.

While this is true its also thus far been the goto excuse in mass effect, why would they change it now?

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

The problem is that somewhere along the line Cerberus fans seem to have got it into their heads that TIM and Cerberus will actually be portrayed as hero's in all of this, that the role they were created to play was the role that Cerberus fans want them to play.

Despite any evidence to the contrary, despite anything that might contradict their own views on Cerberus or Tim they're convinced that Cerberus will be revealed as ultimately heroic even though this series is not about Cerberus or TIM so why would they be shown as anything other than obstacles or antagonists if thats the role they were created to play?

For the same reason Anderson, Hacket and other squadmates aren't obstacles.
Shep may be the main protagonis, but I don't how that prevents other characters to have big roles and depth.

Also, TIM was described as being the best and worst of humanity. If that is so, he should be pretty neutral, not evil.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


For the same reason Anderson, Hacket and other squadmates aren't obstacles.
Shep may be the main protagonis, but I don't how that prevents other characters to have big roles and depth.

Also, TIM was described as being the best and worst of humanity. If that is so, he should be pretty neutral, not evil.

Anderson, Hacket and the squadmates are support not antagonists, TIM and cerberus seem to have been created to fill that role and not another one. So if that is indeed the role they play then where in anything i've said or in anything that we know or think we know about mass effect would that stop them playing a big role or have depth?

Secondly he was described as having the best and worst traits of humanity, not being the best and worst of humanity, thats a completely different thing altogether.

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Arijharn wrote...

Except I don't think you could have done anything to 'stop the Reapers' at the time. There was quite literally nothing you could do because there was nothing really out there. Object Rho was sort of run into if memory serves.

That depends on how outside the box you're willing to think.  The best and most obvious way to proceed would be to assemble proof that the Reapers really do exist. 

To that end, consider the derelict Reaper.  If we ignored getting the IFF transponder, we could have focused on documenting the wreck, salvaging some obvious parts, or possibly even bringing Citadel experts to visit it (briefly, of course).  As long as we're willing to forgo the assault on the Collector Base, we'd have the time to get a proper team together and figure out how best to show the derelict to the world. 

There are some other possibilities as well.  On several occasions tIM implies that he won't turn over information to the Alliance/Citadel until you've had a chance to use it first.  Again, if you're willing to wait, that's more potential evidence that could help sway the powers that be.  Beyond that, there are any number of other projects you could focus on entirely apart from the Collectors; examining Vigil, trying to track down the salvage used to create EDI or the Thanix, studying the Mass Relays and the Citadel, or just searching for unusual Prothean "stuff" might have turned up useful evidence.  That's essentially the story to Arrival, right?

I think the Collector's were actually important in some way, the fact that they were eventually tied to the Reaper threat was sort of a nice bow on top, but even if it wasn't, it was still necessary to stop them.

Stopping the Collectors isn't  a hard task once Veetor reveals their involvement.  They have a single ship that was no match for an undermanned, battle-damaged frigate.  Just have a couple of cruisers blockade the Omega 4 relay.  But even if we're generous and claim that politcal implications would make that difficult, you could still try mining the Relay, or having a few scouts monitor it and call for support once the ship shows up. 

Hell, just leave the Normandy on patrol in Omega; with suprise on our side, destroying the Collector Ship should be a cake walk.  Meanwhile, Shepard can focus his attentions elsewhere, avoiding the whole "working with Cerberus" angle entirely.

Basically, it all comes down to how important you think the Collector Base was to the Reaper plans.  Personally, I don't see any use for the Collectors unless Reapers themselves have attacked.  So I'd consider almost anything a better use of our time that attacking it right now.  But until we have a better idea of just what Harbinger was planning, there's plenty of room for debate.

Indoctrinated TIM is just too convenient imo.

On this, I agree.  We already had Saren serve that role.  And Benezia.  To say nothing of Dr. Kenson.

Modifié par Ye Olde Gamer, 26 juillet 2011 - 10:10 .

[Nightdragon8]

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Except I don't think you could have done anything to 'stop the Reapers' at the time. There was quite literally nothing you could do because there was nothing really out there. Object Rho was sort of run into if memory serves.

That depends on how outside the box you're willing to think.  The best and most obvious way to proceed would be to assemble proof that the Reapers really do exist. 

To that end, consider the derelict Reaper.  If we ignored getting the IFF transponder, we could have focused on documenting the wreck, salvaging some obvious parts, or possibly even bringing Citadel experts to visit it (briefly, of course).  As long as we're willing to forgo the assault on the Collector Base, we'd have the time to get a proper team together and figure out how best to show the derelict to the world. 

Yea but even the Cerburus teams got Huskified, yes you can argue that could have warned about posable problems but, when would the couincil get around to doing it. Also from what I understand It was found in the Termiunious systems pretty much an anti-Council "allience" so getting any council reearch ships out there would be 10x to 100x harder, and it would have so much red tape I think the Reapers would arrive before the council went out there to do anything

There are some other possibilities as well.  On several occasions tIM implies that he won't turn over information to the Alliance/Citadel until you've had a chance to use it first.  Again, if you're willing to wait, that's more potential evidence that could help sway the powers that be.  Beyond that, there are any number of other projects you could focus on entirely apart from the Collectors; examining Vigil, trying to track down the salvage used to create EDI or the Thanix, studying the Mass Relays and the Citadel, or just searching for unusual Prothean "stuff" might have turned up useful evidence.  That's essentially the story to Arrival, right?

Vigil seems to have desappired so you can't study it, because if you bring it up when you try to tell them about it, they say its not there anylonger, from what Anderson said most of the wrekage was taken away by illegal salvaging and the keepers. Also the council has pretty much writen the Reaper off as Geth Technology, even if you have Legion there saying that "its not geth Technology", The Thanix from what I understand was a Turian Salvage, that Garris was able to get his hands on. Also from what I understand the Allince or at least Hakett may be the only one that beleaves Shep about the Reapers, Also if anything Hakett sent Shep "Because" he wasn't an allince and also that the agent that was sent was a "Black ops" in that was not sposed to be there anyway, to help prevent a war with the Termiuns systems

I think the Collector's were actually important in some way, the fact that they were eventually tied to the Reaper threat was sort of a nice bow on top, but even if it wasn't, it was still necessary to stop them.

Stopping the Collectors isn't  a hard task once Veetor reveals their involvement.  They have a single ship that was no match for an undermanned, battle-damaged frigate.  Just have a couple of cruisers blockade the Omega 4 relay.  But even if we're generous and claim that politcal implications would make that difficult, you could still try mining the Relay, or having a few scouts monitor it and call for support once the ship shows up. 

battle damaged, undermanned? The Normandy was outgunned and effectly outmatched in everyway, The cruiser was able to get the drop on the Normandy, Its just that the first hit pretty much killed the ship, which wasn't disigned for 1v1 engaements with higher class vassels. The SR2 was disigned to be a better fighting ship because it is double the size of the SR1 but still has all its features.

As for blockading the Omega 4 relay not going to happen, from what I understand is that unless you have active ships at the relay when they show up, the chances of you being able to hit it are slim very slim, the political issue would be a huge one, 2-3 warships stationed in the Terminus systems? Yea I'm sure that will go over well,

Hell, just leave the Normandy on patrol in Omega; with suprise on our side, destroying the Collector Ship should be a cake walk.  Meanwhile, Shepard can focus his attentions elsewhere, avoiding the whole "working with Cerberus" angle entirely.

Small problem there the "Normandy" is Cerberus property and TIM doesn't seem like the giving type to Allince at least not willingly And it was given to Shep to use

Basically, it all comes down to how important you think the Collector Base was to the Reaper plans.  Personally, I don't see any use for the Collectors unless Reapers themselves have attacked.  So I'd consider almost anything a better use of our time that attacking it right now.  But until we have a better idea of just what Harbinger was planning, there's plenty of room for debate.

The Collectors was taking in whole colonies, and the Counil and the brass seem to be writing it off as Slavers, Considering it seems they are most focused on domistic military building having 100 of thousands of people taken in just a few years is a huge issue. Also we know what Harbinger's plan was with the collectors it was building a reaper, if anything Harbenger was trying to get the Reaper created before the main event, it would be even more moral breaking if human reaper was on the battlefield also. I think the point that everyone is missing is that it seems the Reapers themselves are pushed for time. Because in all honesty they could have let Shep grow old and die before attacking so it seems there is an outside push, which I think was hinted at with the whole "Dark energy messing with the sun lifespan" thing

Indoctrinated TIM is just too convenient imo.

On this, I agree.  We already had Saren serve that role.  And Benezia.  To say nothing of Dr. Kenson.

IT would be a easy copout imo for that also

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:22 .