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[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

Gray? Cerberus? Huh?

Trying to save the universe, make humanity as a whole tougher and stuff isn't morally good? In conflict with their darker methods creating grey?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Gray? Cerberus? Huh?

Trying to save the universe, make humanity as a whole tougher and stuff isn't morally good? In conflict with their darker methods creating grey?

How is killing politicians and a pope gray?
And killing soldiers on Akuze.

Modifié par Mesina2, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[Someone With Mass]

The empire in Star Wars was trying to make the galaxy a "better" place while boosting their own power too, no matter the cost. Were they morally grey as well?

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Trying to save the universe, make humanity as a whole tougher and stuff isn't morally good? In conflict with their darker methods creating grey?

Trying to save the universe with a "the means justify the ends" policy is utilitarian. 

Except that most of Cerberus' actions have nothing to do with trying to save the universe and are therefore clearly immoral. It's like claiming to be saving the world when you steal ice creams and lolipops from children.

Besides, TIM is machiavellian, not utilitarian. He doesn't care for the greater good, he cares for humanity's greater good. And from the looks of it, not all of humanity either.

Modifié par Phaedon, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:07 .

[Savber100]

Phaedon wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Isn't the gray / middle ground removed when said villain is indoctrinated? 

I wouldn't have minded if Cerberus was hunting down Shepard because they were trying to stop him after finding out why the Reapers needed his body, or something similar, which would have created the gray moral ground where pro-Cerberus players can still respect Cerberus and anti-Cerberus players just shoot to kill.

Gray? Cerberus? Huh?

Believe it or not... Cerberus does still contain people that look out for humanity. We have people that disagree with TIM's ACTIONS like Jacob to the cruel doctors that tortured Jack. With people from both ends of the spectrum, we create a pretty grey organization.

The point is that Cerberus is fracked up. But I never opposed their goals to safeguard humanity but I oppose the actions they took to secure it.

So they're different from people like Hitler where his goals were the extermination of non-Aryans which I will never agree on principles.

Modifié par Savber100, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:07 .

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And we learn what about Saren in ME1? That he hates humanity because they killed his brother?

And the Reapers start as the primary antagonists, and then Cerberus comes with the role of the secondary antagonst, what's the problem with that?

People will hate Cerberus for being Cerberus, just like they hated Saren for being Saren. 

When did I say I had a problem with that?

I guess I need to reword my questions on this board, since people can't tell the difference between somebody asking if something is good writing and saying "I think this is bad writing personally!"

Elaborate.

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The empire in Star Wars was trying to make the galaxy a "better" place while boosting their own power too, no matter the cost. Were they morally grey as well?

Yes? Not all citizens of the Empire are jerkfaces, nor all Sith. Hell, the expanded universe of Star Wars even added that Palpatine was creating the Death Stars to defend the universe from the Yuzhong Vong, a species that killed trillions because the galaxy was unprepared to fight them after Palpatine was killed.

[Phaedon]

Savber100 wrote...
Believe it or not... Cerberus does still contain people that look out for humanity. We have people that disagree with TIM's ACTIONS like Jacob to the cruel doctors that tortured Jack. With people from both ends of the spectrum, we create a pretty grey organization.

Cerberus is not a secret society, they are an organisation with a leader. The operatives follow orders (until they go rogue once a month, that is), and the lack of free choice therefore destroys the actual, or illusion of moral neutrality.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...
You don't need internal conflict to create morally grey, last time I checked.

Then why should I care, if they don't have any problems with doing what they're doing, or if they're just shruging off the death of thousands and stamping that as acceptable losses?

[Massadonious1]

But the Star Wars EU was terrible.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

The empire in Star Wars was trying to make the galaxy a "better" place while boosting their own power too, no matter the cost. Were they morally grey as well?

Yes? Not all citizens of the Empire are jerkfaces, nor all Sith. Hell, the expanded universe of Star Wars even added that Palpatine was creating the Death Stars to defend the universe from the Yuzhong Vong, a species that killed trillions because the galaxy was unprepared to fight them after Palpatine was killed.

When did that happen in the movies?

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...
And what did you feel, joy?

I felt a bit sorry for the kids on Pragia, but nothing big. Grayson was never that interesting to me, so nothing.

It's not as if you really learn more about Cerberus until Evolution, you just explore different aspects of them. What's your point? The same applies to Saren.

A general remark not directed at you.
How's exploring different aspects not learning about them? What's your point for bringing Saren into this? Are you assuming I think Saren is better? What's wrong with me having the opinion that making Cerberus such a big part of ME2 wasn't my cup of tea?

Modifié par Mister Mida, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mesina2 wrote...

When did that happen in the movies?

Oh sorry, didn't see where he mentioned the Empire in the movies rather than the Empire in general.

[Dave of Canada]

Massadonious1 wrote...

But the Star Wars EU was terrible.

Still doesn't change the comparison that was made (and how I answered).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:11 .

[Phaedon]

Mister Mida wrote...
I felt a bit sorry for the kids on Pragia, but nothing big. Grayson was never that interesting to me, so nothing.

Sounds like it's a matter of what the majority thinks, then, I'll make a poll.

A general remark not directed at you.
How's exploring different aspects not learning about them? What's your point for bringing Saren into this? Are you assuming I think Saren is better? What's wrong with me having the opinion that making Cerberus such a big part of ME2 wasn't my cup of tea?

But I liked Saren, and I am sure that I'll like Cerberus even more. You are exploring different aspects of things that you already know, you don't have any grand revelation other than the basic ones in ME2.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

When did that happen in the movies?

Oh sorry, didn't see where he mentioned the Empire in the movies rather than the Empire in general.

"The expanded universe includes books, comic books,video games, spin-off films like Star Wars: The Clone Wars, television series, toys, and other media. This material expands and continues the stories told in the films and, excepting where it contradicts the films, is generally considered canonical. However, George Lucas has viewed it as a separate canon from his movie series."

Yeah, I'm not following that.

[Massadonious1]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

But the Star Wars EU was terrible.

Still doesn't change the comparison that was made (and how I answered).

True, I suppose, but it was stuff like that that made it terrible.

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

It's a perfectly good comparison, and the fact that people have started comparing him to Hitler, means that they have created strong negative feelings towards him, and that's what BioWare wants.

Strong negative feelings or not, that isn't a logical comparison when you actually look at TIM's character.

Besides, "Our rightful place on the stars" and "We want to ensure human domination" don't translate very well.

It translates pretty easily when you consider Evolution and Revelation.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Strong negative feelings or not, that isn't a logical comparison when you actually look at TIM's character.

How so? Same philosophy towards decisions, looking for the greater good of only one party, manipulation, etc.

It translates pretty easily when you consider Evolution and Revelation.

Oh, it translates easily, but that doesn't mean that it translates well. It basically says that the rightful place of humanity is to be dominant over the other races, though violence is not inferred yet. That's...the thing, it translates to a very specific philosophy.

[Someone With Mass]

The very definition of "domination" is seeking control over someone or something. In this case, Cerberus is apparently trying to control what seems to be pretty much the whole known galaxy, in order to...survive...wait, what?

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:22 .

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yeah, I'm not following that.

It was approved by Lucasbooks, some novels have direct impact on the films (Anakin's scar in the Revenge of the Sith was added by Lucas after a novel detailed how he got it) and there's a continuity database which included most of the novels (some are classified as non-canon, which the Vong were not part of).

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

Elaborate.

I just wanted to throw out the question and see whether people really felt that the primary antagonist needed to be the most reviled for them to consider it a success or not. I just wanted to see what people thought.

I personally believe its all in the execution myself. My personal feelings are that a secondary antagonist can easily be the more hated party, but that they shouldn't completely overshadow that which is supposed to be the main one. Re: Cerberus, I personally agree that they've been a bit overexposed and have gotten to the point where they're almost overshadowing The Reapers entirely, which I don't think they should do.

My main beef is not hating them directly so much as hating the fact that they've been damn near unrealistically God-modded and that there wasn't enough opportunities to go against the grain in ME2*

* = while I do understand that working with them was necessary, I personally don't feel there were enough opportunities to rebel, if only verbally, when it counted. Even if it only provided the illusion of choice and resulted in the exact same outcome, I'd have preferred that over my Shepard towing the line too readily, sometimes without me even getting a say in the matter at all.