358 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Massadonious1 wrote...

True, I suppose, but it was stuff like that that made it terrible.

Last post on the topic (as we're going way off-topic >.>), I disliked far more the Palpatine clones and how the prophecy of bringing balance back to the Force meant nothing when the Sith rose up shortly afterward again.

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...
Sounds like it's a matter of what the majority thinks, then, I'll make a poll.

I don't care how the majority thinks about it. But feel free to make a poll. I'll happily vote.

But I liked Saren, and I am sure that I'll like Cerberus even more. You are exploring different aspects of things that you already know, you don't have any grand revelation other than the basic ones in ME2.

Exploring aspects of things I already know of is still learning new stuff in my book, or else I wouldn't bother if I thought I knew everything already. But whatever.

Getting assumptions out of the way, I like Saren more than Cerberus or TIM specific, though not by much. Cerberus or TIM never did it for me.
You like Cerberus more, good for you. I'm not gonna argue that. If it were up to me however, their role in the grand scheme of things would be way smaller.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:28 .

[Foolsfolly]

I agree that they're terribly overused and now boring. They cannot ever run an operation that works. They never have any good ideals or goals (despite the Cerberus personnel in ME2 being not-raving lunatics, which I'm getting the feeling had ME2 been made now they would be lunatics.)

Look at how they've handled Spectres in comparison. We know they're a shadowy above-the-law organization for the Council. They have no oversight and can do anything they want. We've only met Shepard, Saren, Nilus, and Tela Vasir. Outside of ME1 there's been one book and one comic with Saren in it. And nothing with Tela.

The Spectres are still interesting (I believe more so after meeting Vasir). The STG are a group similar to Cerberus and they're still interesting. Hell, I can't wait to meet Asari Commandos again!

But Cerberus are incompetent mustache twirling villains now. They've run them into the ground. They have no lofty goals, that's just TIM's propaganda, and they can't tie their shoes without their shoes becoming self aware and taking out a whole Cerberus cell.

They're completely uninteresting now. And I hope they really aren't 40% of the enemies we fight in ME3. There's nothing worth saying about them now...especially since they're indoctrinated.

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

How so? Same philosophy towards decisions, looking for the greater good of only one party, manipulation, etc.

There are a lot more people than Hitler that share that mindset. I don't see how that is anything significant enough to compare him to Hitler.

Oh, it translates easily, but that doesn't mean that it translates well. It basically says that the rightful place of humanity is to be dominant over the other races, though violence is not inferred yet. That's...the thing, it translates to a very specific philosophy.

In the context of Evolution: the rightful place that the reapers seek to deny us.

In the context of Revelation: power to prevent the Council or any other species from infringing on human sovereignty like they tried to do in Revelation. They were deterred by the Alliance's significant military power. Goyle wouldn't put up with their bull**** and forced them to be more reasonable.

When you hear human dominance you think of TIM conquering the galaxy and crushing aliens under his fine leather shoes or some other cliche. That is very narrow minded and not an interpretation that would reflect reality in Mass Effect.

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...
I just wanted to throw out the question and see whether people really felt that the primary antagonist needed to be the most reviled for them to consider it a success or not. I just wanted to see what people thought.

I personally believe its all in the execution myself. My personal feelings are that a secondary antagonist can easily be the more hated party, but that they shouldn't completely overshadow that which is supposed to be the main one. Re: Cerberus, I personally agree that they've been a bit overexposed and have gotten to the point where they're almost overshadowing The Reapers entirely, which I don't think they should do.

My main beef is not hating them directly so much as hating the fact that they've been damn near unrealistically God-modded and that there wasn't enough opportunities to go against the grain in ME2*

* = while I do understand that working with them was necessary, I personally don't feel there were enough opportunities to rebel, if only verbally, when it counted. Even if it only provided the illusion of choice and resulted in the exact same outcome, I'd have preferred that over my Shepard towing the line too readily, sometimes without me even getting a say in the matter at all.

It's simple for me.

Make a lot of the players hate the Reapers and go further than "I need to stop them, they are killing everyone", and they die as an enemy for me. The Reapers are this completely alien force to which morality must not be applied at all.

You still need something to hate, however. Sure, the Reapers are mysterious, but what's the point of an antagonist that you can't hate? That's why we need human-ish antagonists, and TIM is the best one I could think of.

[Dem_B]

Terror_K wrote...

I personally believe its all in the execution myself. My personal feelings are that a secondary antagonist can easily be the more hated party, but that they shouldn't completely overshadow that which is supposed to be the main one. Re: Cerberus, I personally agree that they've been a bit overexposed and have gotten to the point where they're almost overshadowing The Reapers entirely, which I don't think they should do.

Dem_B wrote...
Cerberus embodies the idea of an all-powerful company that controls all spheres of society. 
The most important plot is not how to stop the Reapers, everybody understands that we will win them, the most important what benefits we will get.
Reapers are not a threat but a means for rising the Illusive Man to the top of domination.
But this is not a story in which I would like to participate. I have not been waiting for this of Mass Effect.

I wrote this for another 3 page. I think it's a good answer.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...
There are a lot more people than Hitler that share that mindset. I don't see how that is anything significant enough to compare him to Hitler.

Why? Hitler actually went ahead and did what they did. Some would like to, but can't, while others are just afraid. They are all monsters in my book.

And I use the melodramatic word monsters, because I find the absolute lack of respect about the human life incredibly offensive.

In the context of Evolution: the rightful place that the reapers seek to deny us.

In the context of Revelation: power to prevent the Council or any other species from infringing on human sovereignty like they tried to do in Revelation. They were deterred by the Alliance's significant military power. Goyle wouldn't put up with their bull**** and forced them to be more reasonable.

When you hear human dominance you think of TIM conquering the galaxy and crushing aliens under his fine leather shoes or some other cliche. That is very narrow minded and not an interpretation that would reflect reality in Mass Effect.

Huh? Our "rightful" place is somewhat denied by the Reapers or the aliens? Why do we need power? We is it rightful for us to have more power than anyone else?

Domination is a simple word. It means that you overpower everyone else. Being dominant is not rightful at all.

[Foolsfolly]

When you hear human dominance you think of TIM conquering the galaxy and crushing aliens under his fine leather shoes or some other cliche. That is very narrow minded and not an interpretation that would reflect reality in Mass Effect.

That's true so far. And in that definition there's nothing wrong with Cerberus. Humanity needs organizations looking out for their interests in a galaxy full of older more advanced species. But the thing you must know is that we haven't seen what TIM's grand plan is.

How far is enough? Will he be content to only secure human interests and help them evolve their technologies...or will he become the grand monster everything thinks he'll become. Where he'll own the Council members and grind the other races beneath his shoes?

Don't know.

So far he hasn't done one hostile thing to an alien race. He kills human colonies and experiments on humans.

[Dem_B]

Phaedon wrote...

You still need something to hate, however. Sure, the Reapers are mysterious, but what's the point of an antagonist that you can't hate? That's why we need human-ish antagonists, and TIM is the best one I could think of.

But this should not override the threat of the Reapers. And it turns out that we will raise another evil, after defeating the Reapers.

[Someone With Mass]

It's just that it went from subtle changes here and there to full scale war on such a short notice, it's jarring as hell.

[Phaedon]

Foolsfolly wrote...
That's true so far. And in that definition there's nothing wrong with Cerberus. Humanity needs organizations looking out for their interests in a galaxy full of older more advanced species. But the thing you must know is that we haven't seen what TIM's grand plan is.

We need illegal organizations irradiating our colonies?

[Phaedon]

Dem_B wrote...
But this should not override the threat of the Reapers. And it turns out that we will raise another evil, after defeating the Reapers.

Care to elaborate? Cerberus are henchmen for the Reapers.

[Someone With Mass]

If they were fighting for independence against a more clear foe that wants to put humanity under their boot heel, that's good. More power to ya, but it sounds like they want it to come at the cost of everyone else's independence. Which I don't support, because that sounds more like trying to establish a dictatorship.

[Foolsfolly]

We need illegal organizations irradiating our colonies?

Of course not. We need our own STG, Spectres, or Asari Commandos.

It's all that overly evil crap that ruins Cerberus. If it was toned down some and if we saw a few good things they've done for humanity than they'd be a gray organization...maybe even a necessary evil. Which would all be more interesting than the Cerberus formula:

1. Come up with overly evil plan (bonus if it tortures people, extra bonus points if it's a mentally disabled person).
2. Failure.
3. The whole cell working on it is destroyed.
4. Enjoy a cigar and a scotch.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:51 .

[Phaedon]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Of course not. We need out own STG, Spectres, or Asari Commandos.
It's all that overly evil crap that ruins Cerberus. If it was toned down some and if we saw a few good things they've done for humanity than they'd be a gray organization...maybe even a necessary evil. Which would all be more interesting than the Cerberus formula:

1. Come up with overly evil plan (bonus if it tortures people, extra bonus points if it's a mentally disabled person).
2. Failure.
3. The whole cell working on it is destroyed.
4. Enjoy a cigar and a scotch.

Spectres? Hmm, maybe, with some adjustments, STG? No. The farther we get away from having an organization like that the better.

Modifié par Phaedon, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:48 .

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

Why? Hitler actually went ahead and did what they did. Some would like to, but can't, while others are just afraid. They are all monsters in my book.

And I use the melodramatic word monsters, because I find the absolute lack of respect about the human life incredibly offensive.

I'm getting tired of all these Hitler references, I suggest you find some other way to describe TIM that is more likely to make me care about what you're saying. I think your analogies are entirely inappropriate and I don't feel like explaining why again.

Also, sacrificing 1,000 to save 1,000,000 doesn't mean you lack respect for life.

Do you think Shepard lacks respect for life because he destroyed the relay along with 300,000 batarians in Arrival? I can guarantee that is a much greater kill count than Cerberus. If TIM had done that instead, there would be a **** storm on these forums.

Huh? Our "rightful" place is somewhat denied by the Reapers or the aliens? Why do we need power? We is it rightful for us to have more power than anyone else?

Take a look at political realism: http://www.iep.utm.edu/polreal/

Power in one form or another is needed to protect humanity's interests. I've already cited an example, Revelation, where it did. I would like you to respond to that directly.

Domination is a simple word. It means that you overpower everyone else. Being dominant is not rightful at all.

Yes, and unless everyone is equal in every way (which is certainly not the case in Mass Effect), someone is going to be dominant in one area or another.

Asari are dominant when it comes to biotics. They're also generally considered the dominant species in Citadel space. The salarians are dominant when it comes to infiltration and intelligence. The krogan are dominant when it comes to bashing heads in, etc. TIM wants humanity to be dominant in many areas because that is power to protect humanity's interests.

Being dominant is not a matter of right or wrong.

Someone With Mass wrote...

If they were fighting for independence against a more clear foe that wants to put humanity under their boot heel, that's good. More power to ya, but it sounds like they want it to come at the cost of everyone else's independence. Which I don't support, because that sounds more like trying to establish a dictatorship.

Isn't that what TIM is doing? He created Cerberus after his experience with the monolith. He understood that the purpose of that thing was the subjugation of organics on a grand scale. He knew that whoever built that thing wanted humanity under their boot heel, so he created Cerberus to prevent that.

I don't think TIM wants it to come at the cost of everyone else's independence, simply because it's not logical to try to take over the galaxy or cliche things like that. As TIM says in Ascension, holding onto power is much more difficult than taking it. A big to conquer the galaxy would only inspire hatred and make humanity an enemy. It would not help protect their future at all.

I believe TIM sees this obvious truth.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[Someone With Mass]

Phaedon wrote...
Spectres? Hmm, maybe, with some adjustments, STG? No. The farther we get away from having an organization like that the better.

The description of the STG sounds exactly what Cerberus is trying to be/is, except Cerberus is not ruled by a government.

"The Special Tasks Group (STG) is a salarian espionage organization, usually deployed by the Citadel Council. STG operators work in independent cells, performing dangerous missions such as counterterrorism, infiltration, reconnaissance, assassination, and sabotage. They are currently very active in the Terminus Systems."

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[Dem_B]

Phaedon wrote...

Dem_B wrote...
But this should not override the threat of the Reapers. And it turns out that we will raise another evil, after defeating the Reapers.

Care to elaborate? Cerberus are henchmen for the Reapers.

As I said earlier, I do not think that Illusive Man is the servant of the Reapers, I would not be surprised if he knew about Reapers long before Shepard. He made plans. He knew that many will die, but those who survive will be stronger. It will be humanity, and he will be at the helm.

[Mister Mida]

Dem_B wrote...

I would not be surprised if he knew about Reapers long before Shepard.

TIM did know something was going on long before Shepard came with his Reaper theory. If you've read Evolution, you can assume Cerberus is actually more an organization against the Reapers rather than just non-humans. IMO, that is.

[Foolsfolly]

Spectres? Hmm, maybe, with some adjustments, STG? No. The farther we get away from having an organization like that the better.

Why? We Americans have the CIA, NSA, and who knows what else. And many other countries have their own such organizations. There's always the need for clandestine groups in a hostile world.

And the Mass Effect universe is a hostile one. Look at all the other clandestine groups that we know about (no word on if the turians have one, but that's not proof that they don't).

The problem with Cerberus is that they're run by an amoral guy who throws money and resources away in failure after failure. Yet despite all their losses they're somehow 40% of the enemies in the final battle against the unstoppable antithesis of life....it boggles the mind really.

I don't think Cerberus was a bad idea, in fact they were very interesting at one point. At this moment though...they're just villains.

Humanity deserves a better Cerberus.

[Inverness Moon]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Humanity deserves a better Cerberus.

You're right about that. If TIM's actions in ME3 don't meet my approval, then my Shepard will be stepping up to replace him.

[Phaedon]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I'm getting tired of all these Hitler references, I suggest you find some other way to describe TIM that is more likely to make me care about what you're saying. I think your analogies are entirely inappropriate and I don't feel like explaining why again.

Also, sacrificing 1,000 to save 1,000,000 doesn't mean you lack respect for life.

Do you think Shepard lacks respect for life because he destroyed the relay along with 300,000 batarians in Arrival? I can guarantee that is a much greater kill count than Cerberus. If TIM had done that instead, there would be a **** storm on these forums.

You find them offensive? I find it offensive that you do. Both of these idiots started massacres, I won't cater to anyone and say that any of them are good.

You want to talk about Arrival? Okay. For starters, the moral aspect of the choice is non-existant, since Shepard was never given a choice. However, if you think that a Shepard that just killed 300,000 Batarians and doesn't feel regret is any better than a war criminal, then you are absolutely wrong.

Shepard at least had a somewhat noble "end". To save time and have the various races prepared.

You want to talk about TIM? Pragia, SSV Geneva, Kahoku, Akuze, Vatican, TRAPDOOR, etc. Were any of those morally justifiable? 

 Take a look at political realism: http://www.iep.utm.edu/polreal/

Power in one form or another is needed to protect humanity's interests. I've already cited an example, Revelation, where it did. I would like you to respond to that directly.

Power =/= Domination. Try again.

Yes, and unless everyone is equal in every way (which is certainly not the case in Mass Effect), someone is going to be dominant in one area or another.

What..?!

Asari are dominant when it comes to biotics. They're also generally considered the dominant species in Citadel space. The salarians are dominant when it comes to infiltration and intelligence. The krogan are dominant when it comes to bashing heads in, etc. TIM wants humanity to be dominant in many areas because that is power to protect humanity's interests.

Being dominant is not a matter of right or wrong.

That has nothing to do with equality. That has to do with diversity, everyone is born to be different, but everyone is equal.

TIM wants political domination? And that's our rightful place, how? 

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

You want to talk about TIM? Pragia, SSV Geneva, Kahoku, Akuze, Vatican, TRAPDOOR, etc. Were any of those morally justifiable?

Yes, though that's been covered a thousand and two times in the other Cerberus threads.

[Someone With Mass]

Shepard sacrificed those batarians because he had no other choice. TIM clearly had a choice before he started to throw hundreds of thousand people into the furnace.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

You want to talk about TIM? Pragia, SSV Geneva, Kahoku, Akuze, Vatican, TRAPDOOR, etc. Were any of those morally justifiable?

Yes, though that's been covered a thousand and two times in the other Cerberus threads.

Someone explained killing of pope?


I'm pretty sure I would remember that.