358 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

You want to talk about TIM? Pragia, SSV Geneva, Kahoku, Akuze, Vatican, TRAPDOOR, etc. Were any of those morally justifiable?

Yes, though that's been covered a thousand and two times in the other Cerberus threads.

Morally justifiable? This is definitely what has been covered.

[Foolsfolly]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Humanity deserves a better Cerberus.

You're right about that. If TIM's actions in ME3 don't meet my approval, then my Shepard will be stepping up to replace him.

I seriously hope that's one of the possible endings for a Renegade Shepard.

Shepard with an alliance (or not) with the Shadow Broker would finally be able to help humanity. To do the dirty jobs that must be done but the Alliance cannot be involved with.

Shepard would turn that organization around. Humanity needs a shadow organization to help strong arm their way into things...and take out enemies before it becomes a costly and destructive war.

Not destroy human colonies, kill colonists, and generally mess up their own plans while their experiments get loose and kill.

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

You want to talk about Arrival? Okay. For starters, the moral aspect of the choice is non-existant, since Shepard was never given a choice. However, if you think that a Shepard that just killed 300,000 Batarians and doesn't feel regret is any better than a war criminal, then you are absolutely wrong.

What makes you think TIM doesn't feel regret? He's not going to pour out his inner thoughts to Shepard or something like the rest of his crew does. Your assumption here is rather revealing.

Someone can still experience regret while doing things that they think are necessary. After his experience with the Arca Monolith, it's no surprise TIM feels the need to go to great lengths.

Shepard at least had a somewhat noble "end". To save time and have the various races prepared.

And TIM has been working to help protect humanity ever since the monolith incident. That goal is noble, you just don't like his methods.

You want to talk about TIM? Pragia, SSV Geneva, Kahoku, Akuze, Vatican, TRAPDOOR, etc. Were any of those morally justifiable?

 
Whether it is justifiable repends on the goals. Whether or not people got hurt isn't going to be a deciding factor.

Just like Shepard's actions in Arrival were entirely justifiable considering the reapers were on the doorstep.

Power =/= Domination. Try again.

Domination: rule or sway; control, often arbitrary.

I think it's pretty clear here.

What..?!

You need to be more clear.

That has nothing to do with equality. That has to do with diversity, everyone is born to be different, but everyone is equal.

Except they're not. Not everyone in the Mass Effect galaxy is even the same species. As Legion says, each needs to be judged on their own merits. Treating everyone the same is racist, even "benign anthropomorphism."

Of course, that isn't saying that others don't deserve the rights that come with sentience, but that doesn't mean everyone is just the same.

TIM wants political domination? And that's our rightful place, how? 

You're thinking backwards. Political domination is a means to an end, which is a humanity not controlled by other entities. That is the "rightful place."

Just like the geth fought the quarians for their right to self-determinate, TIM believes that humanity needs power enable to ensure it's capable of that. Look what happened to the quarians. The Council kicked them out on their ass and now their race is wasting away because they don't have the power to change their situation. Xen seeks to change that, and I admire that, but I don't like her methods. Unlike TIM, she does intend to subjugate another species to accomplish her goals.

(If I had to choose a female quarian to romance other than Tali, it would be Xen.)

Anyhow, I want you to respond to my bit about Revelation in your next post.

Edit: Btw, you may say everyone is equal, but that is not what others think in the Mass Effect universe. If it was, the Council would have equal voices form all races rather than being such an exclusive club. TIM deals with reality, which is that everyone is certainly not treated equally, regardless of opinions on the matter.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 19 juillet 2011 - 10:36 .

[Ahglock]

Mesina2 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Mass Effect 1 with Saren.

The thing is, the purpose of Saren as an antagonist shifted throughout the story. He went from being a threat you hated related to the Geth as well as for his general disdain for humanity, then became almost a face and conduit to hate The Reapers through, and then finally an antagonist to both pity and hate when you realised the puppet he truly was. He initially was the primary antagonist up until you discover more about The Reapers, and even when it switches to them he's an antagonist linked to them and through them. TIM and Cerberus aren't directly linked to The Reapers as antagonists... until now. And how we now too much about them it doesn't quite have the same impact.

No, Reapers are main antagonists in ME1. Remember that vision on Eden Prime?

If anything, Saren was main antagonist until Tali shows up with evidence.

No Saren was the main antogonist in ME1.  The reapers were Virus X in a movie about a doomsday cult trying to end the world by releasing the virus and starting a zombie apocoypse.  The Virus isn't the antognist, the people trying to release the virus are.  Once the Virus gets out, then the effects of the Virus are the antogonist in the sequel.  

Cerberus is a ruthless terrorist organization bent on ruling the world, they just are incompetent at it.(Cobra!!) Other than them being involved in the last 2 games they don't really tie to the threat.  If they were the ones who had released the reapers on the galaxy and you had been trying to stop them form doing it for the last 2 games then yeah they'd be a big antagonist.  As is they are a random bad guy distraction that is probably going to have more story than the main villain.

[matt-bassist]

cerberus is mac's mary sue. fact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

How is killing politicians and a pope gray?

If killing said politicians produces a better situation, then a normally 'black' action (killing someone) is mixed with a 'white' results (say, significantly reducing tensions between two major species at a time when Humanity is pretty much alone and without friends), which produces a tone we call 'gray.'

And killing soldiers on Akuze.

If you don't know much of the context surrounding an event...

Unless, of course, you're one of those people who goes 'they did it for the lolz.'

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
Strong negative feelings or not, that isn't a logical comparison when you actually look at TIM's character.

How so? Same philosophy towards decisions, looking for the greater good of only one party, manipulation, etc.

Eh, we could go with how one was a genocidal populist politician who advocated the virtues of a fascist police state with individuals at every age encouraged to treat him as the center of a cult of personality, sought racial-rebalancing and expansion by widespread ethnic cleansing and the execution of the physically undesirable, instigated numerous wars of conquest, was a personal believer in mysticism, was bat-**** paranoid, and was far less a machivilian and far more of a leader of thugs whe went out of their way to beat up anyone who dared disagree with them.


And then we have TIM, who really doesn't match any of that in type or scale.

So, you know, pretty much everything that makes Hitler remarkable and, well, Hitler.

You might as well compare TIM to Pol Pot. Or Palpatine. Or Margaret Thatcher.

[BatmanPWNS]

I think there being overused now. In ME1 they were enemies simple nothing too big. Now in ME2 we got a twist by working for the enemy and now it's all about Cereberus with Bioware after that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Perhaps the most damning praise that can be given to Cerberus is that everyone wanted to use the idea (Covert pro-Human rogue CIA? The Conspiracies we can make!), but there was no shared concept of what it was supposed to be.

Right from the start, Cerberus is prone to a number of abuses in terms of writing. The CIA-effect of how successes, by their nature, don't get noticed. The convenient plot justification of 'mad science run amuck,' even if the 'why' sometimes gets forgotten. Then there's there's the 'what style do we portray with?'

Mass Effect 2 had a lot of problems with the style it took with things being revealed, both new and old, and I'm not just talking about Cerberus. The 'edgy' atmosphere, the rampant sexualization, and of course the ways they tried to evoke sympathy or disgust beyond all reason or sense.

Cerberus's treatment was typical, but set a bad standard that probably wasn't intended. But it became the starting point, and so set the tone for everything after.


Which isn't to say ME2 was worse in how it portrayed Cerberus: ME1's biggest flaw was the entire lack of context about just about everything regarding to Cerberus. WHY did they do Akuze? WHAT went wrong with the Rachni? Etc. What was supposed to be vague mystery never was addressed, and all the questions invoked ended up getting the worst default answers because, well, default. 'Incompetent' and 'for the lolz' became the explanation for everything, not because it was but because nothing else was ever provided.

[Xivai]

I dub it the Team Rocket effect, there blasting off again. Now we have to swat them like a fly every game, and they succeed at nothing. I can't take them credibly as a villain, I never could. It's only getting more hilarious with each new Cerberus Effect tie in with a Mass Effect cameo.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

WHAT went wrong with the Rachni?

Actually we were told exactly what went wrong with the rachni; the researchers treated them like animals and not sentient beings, and this alllowed the rachni to escape from containment and overrun the facility.

I'm referring to more specific than that. Did the Rachni pretend to be sick and then break out when a doctor came in? Did they stage a riot? Did they feign docility to the point where Cerberus began to see if they could be armed with weapons, and then use said firepower against their captors?

'They were too smart' is the same kind of way too vague.

This even plays out several times in the plot with Jack and several Blue Suns mercenaries identifying our shuttle as Cerberus when they see the emblem on it and immediately becoming hostile.

I don't disagree, I'll just add that this is part of a larger 'style' problem ME2 generally had. (Same with 'all strong women are secure to show off their boobs.")

[taffy_17]

I'm pretty sure more than 50% of the enemies in ME1 were Geth but no one complained.
So long as there's a bit of variety between the battles and Cerberus soldiers we meet, and they can make it work with the story, then I'll be happy.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Phaedon wrote...
Cerberus was being set up as the villain in both of the previous games. Especially ME2 where we discover the role of TIM. We need a human enemy to sort of, "connect" to, you know, an easy one to hate. It's pretty hard to do that with sentient starships.

I agree.

TIM will take a similar role that Saren took in ME1, and well, I think that TIM is infinitely more deep than Saren was. I couldn't think of a better antagonist.

I will say that while I like TIM just as much as Saren. I will disagree about him making an excellent "Saren figure" I think he would make a rather ******-poor one from a story telling perspective. Loghain was the secondary villain in DA:O and the force that opposed the hero on a more personal level.  But that was accomplished without him being associated with the darkspawn.

In short. I agree that TIM can be a good antagonist. But it can be accomplished without him teaming up with the Reapers. Personally I believe that him working with the Reapers pretty much destroys what makes him interesting to begin with.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
What makes you think TIM doesn't feel regret? He's not going to pour out his inner thoughts to Shepard or something like the rest of his crew does. Your assumption here is rather revealing.[/quote]
What makes me think that he doesn't feel regret...hmm...maybe something that shows things from his POV, like the multiple books that are about him!

[quote]Someone can still experience regret while doing things that they think are necessary. After his experience with the Arca Monolith, it's no surprise TIM feels the need to go to great lengths.[/quote]
That doesn't justify his actions at all.


[quote]
And TIM has been working to help protect humanity ever since the monolith incident. That goal is noble, you just don't like his methods.[/quote]
Noble? Pfft, right. Ever wondered why he only cares about humanity? Or is it that maybe he wasn't really preparing since a specific time? Either way, noble? Right.

Hell, he even downright says in Ascension that the aliens are denying humanity from it's "rightful" place, just after they have accepted humanity into the Council. He goes even further than that, but I'll let you read the book.



[quote]
Whether it is justifiable repends on the goals. Whether or not people got hurt isn't going to be a deciding factor.

Just like Shepard's actions in Arrival were entirely justifiable considering the reapers were on the doorstep.[/quote]
Shepard's actions had no moral choice behind them and are therefore not debatable. The goals? Stealing antimatter? Noble goal. Attacking the flotilla out of pure rage and lust for vengeance? Creating a single good biotic by tortuing multiple children.

NOT justifiable.
[quote]Domination: rule or sway; control, often arbitrary.

I think it's pretty clear here.[/quote]
Domination over others. Humanity has power. Nobody is denying anything from them, they are one of the most politically dominant races.

That clearly has to do with domination, as well as romantic nationalism. Humanity is treated as equal, it has no further rightful position from there.


[quote]
You need to be more clear.[/quote]
Aliens and humans are not equal?!

[quote]
Except they're not. Not everyone in the Mass Effect galaxy is even the same species. As Legion says, each needs to be judged on their own merits. Treating everyone the same is racist, even "benign anthropomorphism."

Of course, that isn't saying that others don't deserve the rights that come with sentience, but that doesn't mean everyone is just the same.[/quote]
...that still has nothing to do with equality. 


[quote]
You're thinking backwards. Political domination is a means to an end, which is a humanity not controlled by other entities. That is the "rightful place." [/quote]

Except that humanity is not controlled by anyone. Hell, they weren't controlled before they even got a seat on the Council. They were even doing AI research under the Council's nose...

[quote]Just like the geth fought the quarians for their right to self-determinate, TIM believes that humanity needs power enable to ensure it's capable of that. Look what happened to the quarians. The Council kicked them out on their ass and now their race is wasting away because they don't have the power to change their situation. Xen seeks to change that, and I admire that, but I don't like her methods. Unlike TIM, she does intend to subjugate another species to accomplish her goals.[/quote]
Again, read Revelation. The Council would have kicked humanity as well if they discovered that they were developing illegal AI tech, let alone creating an army of them. The rest of your post speaks for itself, you want humanity to have the power to do AI research if they wish...

International conventions happen for a reason, if you don't like them, don't enter the Council.

[quote\\(If I had to choose a female quarian to romance other than Tali, it would be Xen.)

Anyhow, I want you to respond to my bit about Revelation in your next post.


[/quote]
?

[quote]
Edit: Btw, you may say everyone is equal, but that is not what others think in the Mass Effect universe. If it was, the Council would have equal voices form all races rather than being such an exclusive club. TIM deals with reality, which is that everyone is certainly not treated equally, regardless of opinions on the matter.[/quote]
That's like saying that NATO nations consider idividuals from Non-NATO nations as not equal.

In short, BS. Equality has nothing with entering an alliance.  None of the council members have been downright racist.

TIM deals with his sick idea, humanity is a politically dominant society, but he still wants to advance by stepping on everybody else.

[Arppis]

Beerfish wrote...

My one and only probelm with cerberus is the number of outrageous things they had their hands in, in me1 that shepard had to deal with. The organization is a fundamental part of this story and after ME2 it has to be a big part of ME3. It would be a worse story flaw if it was just tossed aside or played a minor role in ME3

Do it right and it looks just fine.

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Eh, we could go with how one was a genocidal populist politician who advocated the virtues of a fascist police state with individuals at every age encouraged to treat him as the center of a cult of personality, sought racial-rebalancing and expansion by widespread ethnic cleansing and the execution of the physically undesirable, instigated numerous wars of conquest, was a personal believer in mysticism, was bat-**** paranoid, and was far less a machivilian and far more of a leader of thugs whe went out of their way to beat up anyone who dared disagree with them.


And then we have TIM, who really doesn't match any of that in type or scale.

So, you know, pretty much everything that makes Hitler remarkable and, well, Hitler.

You might as well compare TIM to Pol Pot. Or Palpatine. Or Margaret Thatcher.

1) TIM's administration of Cerberus is totalitarian and he is described to be constantly keeping an eye over his projects.

2) TIM definitely seeks racial, rebalancing, but by introducing a new balance.

3) Hitler didn't start "cleansing" before he got control of a huge army, so your point is? Was Hitler A-OK before that?

4) Mysticism and being paranoid are not related to morality, and we can't tell what TIM thinks about these aspects. Other than mysticism, he probably hates that.

5) TIM believes in the same romantic nationalistic idea about how the human race has a rightful position, even after they have become one of the politically dominant societies.

[mineralica]

taffy_17 wrote...

I'm pretty sure more than 50% of the enemies in ME1 were Geth but no one complained.
So long as there's a bit of variety between the battles and Cerberus soldiers we meet, and they can make it work with the story, then I'll be happy.

No one complained because they were designed and shown as direct servants to main villain and directly connected to plot - majority of main missions started with "geth are looking something here".

Then in ME2 designed enemies - Collectors - appeared only in three missions, one of which is final. All the other time Shepard is fighting mercs, which is pretty strange but still can be explained with "Shepard is searching for something important for mission while stupid mercs got in his way".

Then in ME3 40% of enemies are... organisation which has the same goals with protagonist - to stop the main threat. Mind blowing. Why not reaperized extinct or existing species? Why not individuals who was allowed to keep some signs of individuality for more effective actions? Why not indoctrinated traitors of their races?

Modifié par mineralica, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:25 .

[SandTrout]

taffy_17 wrote...

I'm pretty sure more than 50% of the enemies in ME1 were Geth but no one complained.
So long as there's a bit of variety between the battles and Cerberus soldiers we meet, and they can make it work with the story, then I'll be happy.

The difference is that we had no reason think that the Geth would ever be anything except hostile until we recruit Legion. Cerberus, however, has a prime resource for the protagonist in ME2, with TIM playing the role of ally of circumstance against the Reapers.

The seeming complete about-face where they begin aiding the Reapers against Shepard, which is counter to their stated role in the previous two games, is jarring to those following the story, and why it has incited such critisism.

[Ahglock]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

WHAT went wrong with the Rachni?

Actually we were told exactly what went wrong with the rachni; the researchers treated them like animals and not sentient beings, and this alllowed the rachni to escape from containment and overrun the facility.

I'll say one big problem with Cerberus is this:

(a copy/paste of a note I just made on Cerberus for a friend)

----

Cerberus has been given an emblem and uniforms that they prominently display, apparently for the sake of the casual players and not because they have any good lore reason to do so.

Cerberus is a clandestine and highly illegal organization. They go to great efforts to avoid publicity. In Mass Effect 1 we scan a Cerberus space station from orbit and the description notes that the station has no identifying marks or registrations. When we board the facility we see no emblems or any other signs other than a single log entry which indicate who might have constructed the base.

Later when we invade four different Cerberus bases we see no identifiable uniforms or symbols anywhere on any of the personnal or on any of the base(s) equipment. Had it not been revealed to us by an outside party that these bases belonged to Cerberus we'd have never known that they were all connected to one another much less the Cerberus space station we found earlier.

A group which wishes to say secret, like Cerberus, doesn't want anyone who stumbles accross them to be able to identify them. Why then in ME2 do they have uniforms and a logo they plaster over everything? Their uniforms, the floors, their computers, and even the walls and windows in their bases prominently display their logo. If we invaded a Cerberus base in ME2 randomly we would know immediately that it was a Cerberus owned and operated facility.

Why?  Because they stopped being a serious clandestine group and turned into comic villains like Cobra hell even early bond villains were less obvious. 

[taffy_17]

SandTrout wrote...

taffy_17 wrote...

I'm pretty sure more than 50% of the enemies in ME1 were Geth but no one complained.
So long as there's a bit of variety between the battles and Cerberus soldiers we meet, and they can make it work with the story, then I'll be happy.

The difference is that we had no reason think that the Geth would ever be anything except hostile until we recruit Legion. Cerberus, however, has a prime resource for the protagonist in ME2, with TIM playing the role of ally of circumstance against the Reapers.

The seeming complete about-face where they begin aiding the Reapers against Shepard, which is counter to their stated role in the previous two games, is jarring to those following the story, and why it has incited such critisism.

We can only speculate as to why Cerberus would do this. maybe its cause shepard wasn't very obedient in ME2 and TIM wants revenge and/or is going along the enemy of my enemy is my friend route, maybe he's indoctrinated, the husk like eyes? But surely Bioware wouldn't have announced that statistic if they thought it wasn't going to work in their favour from a sales point of view so maybe (hopefully) they have something exciting planned.

[Bad King]

Nashiktal wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

Alot of people are saying that there is too much Cerberus in the games, but who would the enemy be if not Cerberus? Like a poster above me mentioned you cant have squad based combat against gaint reapers

Why not the indoctrinated citizens of the galaxy you are trying to save? 

Why not more collectors? I swear it would be extremely silly if the collectors only had one ship.

Why not Batarians? The reapers do start in Batarian space.

Plenty of options. Fighting cerberus is dandy, but 40% of the enemies? A galactic war that involves the entire known galaxy and almost half of the enemies you fight is an organization that has had its resources drained, and its cells demolished?

Wasted potential.

We could also fight rebel shadow broker factions (led by Tazzik) or an army of indoctrinated Yahg. I think it should have been mainly husks as well as a big mix of all the different species/factions indoctrinated or allied to the reapers. I agree with Nashiktal- 40% Cerberus is too much.

[nhsk]

Nashiktal wrote...

Why not the indoctrinated citizens of the galaxy you are trying to save? 

Why not more collectors? I swear it would be extremely silly if the collectors only had one ship.

Why not Batarians? The reapers do start in Batarian space.

Plenty of options. Fighting cerberus is dandy, but 40% of the enemies? A galactic war that involves the entire known galaxy and almost half of the enemies you fight is an organization that has had its resources drained, and its cells demolished?

Wasted potential.

Agreed.

[Inverness Moon]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

What makes me think that he doesn't feel regret...hmm...maybe something that shows things from his POV, like the multiple books that are about him!
[/quote]
We may see things from his POV in the books in several instances, but that hardly is a look into his innermost thoughts. Evolution was a much better look.
[quote]That doesn't justify his actions at all.[/quote]We're talking about regret, not justification.
[quote]
And TIM has been working to help protect humanity ever since the monolith incident. That goal is noble, you just don't like his methods.
[/quote]
Noble? Pfft, right. Ever wondered why he only cares about humanity? Or is it that maybe he wasn't really preparing since a specific time? Either way, noble? Right.
[/quote]"Only cares about humanity?" He puts humanity first before others because its his own race, just as I put my own family first before others. That does not automatically mean I think less of them, they're just not my family. There is nothing unusual about that.

[quote]
Whether it is justifiable repends on the goals. Whether or not people got hurt isn't going to be a deciding factor.

Just like Shepard's actions in Arrival were entirely justifiable considering the reapers were on the doorstep.
[/quote]
Shepard's actions had no moral choice behind them and are therefore not debatable.

No moral choice behind them? Are you saying that because he was forced to do it because of plot that we can't debate it?
[quote]
The goals? Stealing antimatter? Noble goal. Attacking the flotilla out of pure rage and lust for vengeance? Creating a single good biotic by tortuing multiple children.

NOT justifiable.
[/quote]
Stealing anything is a means to an end. Trying to call it the goal is asinine.

Cerberus did not attack the flotilla out of "pure rage and lust for vengeance." Did you even read the book?

Whether creating that biotic was justifiable depends on what that biotic does.

Anyhow, your statements like these are waking me up to how I'm wasting my time by talking with you. I don't think you're being honest.
[quote]
Domination over others. Humanity has power. Nobody is denying anything from them, they are one of the most politically dominant races.

That clearly has to do with domination, as well as romantic nationalism. Humanity is treated as equal, it has no further rightful position from there.
[/quote]
The Council is certainly denying them their AI research. It also denied them more dreadnoughts before they joined the Council. The Council quite skilled at denying things like an equal voice to other races not part of the Council.

We've just moved a step up.
[quote]
Aliens and humans are not equal?!
[/quote]
That depends on your definition of equal.
[quote]
Except that humanity is not controlled by anyone. Hell, they weren't controlled before they even got a seat on the Council. They were even doing AI research under the Council's nose...
[/quote]
Humanity's actions were controlled in part by the will of the Council.

The Council sought further control over humanity in response to that incident, but were deterred by the Alliance's considerable military power.

[quote]
?
[/quote]
Revelation is a great example of why it is necessary for humanity to have the power to protect its own interests. That is what TIM's seeks. The Council would have a leash on humanity now if wasn't for our military power.
[quote]
That's like saying that NATO nations consider idividuals from Non-NATO nations as not equal.

In short, BS. Equality has nothing with entering an alliance.  None of the council members have been downright racist.
[/quote]
Really? Does NATO allow any state to join? Or are they an exclusive club like the Council?

The Council by nature elevates itself above others and uses arbitrary requirements to produce a barrier to entry to keep others out. Humanity kicked the door down with the Battle of the Citadel. If the Council had not allowed them to join at that point, public opinion would have turned heavily against them and it might have destabilized the whole system.

The Council races think they have the right to rule over others because of past deeds. If they treated everyone as equals, all races would have a Council seat.
[quote]
TIM deals with his sick idea, humanity is a politically dominant society, but he still wants to advance by stepping on everybody else.
[/quote]
Stepping on everyone else? What makes you think that is necessary or desirable for TIM?

But anyhow, I think I'm going to stop here. You seem far too sensational and biased when it comes to this discussion. I should have just stopped when you brought up Hitler.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .