358 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

Phaedon wrote...

Absolutely not.

Cerberus was being set up as the villain in both of the previous games. Especially ME2 where we discover the role of TIM. We need a human enemy to sort of, "connect" to, you know, an easy one to hate. It's pretty hard to do that with sentient starships.

TIM will take a similar role that Saren took in ME1, and well, I think that TIM is infinitely more deep than Saren was. I couldn't think of a better antagonist.

Mass Effect 2 left a completely different impression on me. I saw Cerberus as allies who were morally questionable and who you could never fully trust- to me there was almost nothing to imply that Cerberus were going to be antagonists in ME3 (apart from Kaidan/Ashley's silly theory that Cerberus were behind the colony attacks and TIM's evil smile).

I have a feeling that Cerberus being antagonists in ME3 wasn't planned until after ME2 was released (mainly as a means to gain a new enemy other than just husks).

[Someone With Mass]

I'd imagine that the majority of the batarians are turned into Cannibals, so it'd probably be a little hard to fight them in their "pure" form.

That said, I'd rather take on the husk horde than fight Cerberus for like 40 % of the game. At least the husk have varied forms.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...
We may see things from his POV in the books in several instances, but that hardly is a look into his innermost thoughts. Evolution was a much better look.[/quote]
With the POV being a narrator, which shows a much younger TIM.
[quote]We're talking about regret, not justification.[/quote]Regret that lacks from TIM in the books.

[quote]"Only cares about humanity?" He puts humanity first before others because its his own race, just as I put my own family first before others. That does not automatically mean I think less of them, they're just not my family. There is nothing unusual about that.[/quote]
Yeah and you believe that the rightful position of your family is over the rest of the families. And I have yet to see TIM helping other "families".

[quote]
Stealing anything is a means to an end. Trying to call it the goal is asinine.[/quote]
No, the goal is obvious. To secure anti-matter for Cerberus.

[quote]Cerberus did not attack the flotilla out of "pure rage and lust for vengeance." Did you even read the book?[/quote]
Did you? Oh no, they won't give us that test subject we want to torture, better attack a ship full of people!

[quote]Whether creating that biotic was justifiable depends on what that biotic does.[/quote]
No, sacrificing lives and torturing children for a single biotic can't be justifiable.

[quote]Anyhow, your statements like these are waking me up to how I'm wasting my time by talking with you. I don't think you're being honest.[/quote]
I am not stating my opinion, I am stating facts here. If you don't like them, go on in ME3 thinking that TIM is a noble gentleman who loves all races (including varren), but just wants to fight social injustice and make humanity equal to everyone else.

[quote]
The Council is certainly denying them their AI research. It also denied them more dreadnoughts before they joined the Council. The Council quite skilled at denying things like an equal voice to other races not part of the Council.

We've just moved a step up.[/quote]
And do any of the other Council races have AI research? Or do they have more dreadnoughts than the Treaty says that they can? 

And don't pull the "but humans weren't in the council". They got an embassy and a representantive there, Karpyshyn is perfectly clear of what makes a Council race and how the volus, the hanar and the elcor are council races as well.

If you don't like treaties, then don't join a confederation that has them, jeez.


[quote]
That depends on your definition of equal.[/quote]
All people are born equal, but different.

[quote]
Humanity's actions were controlled in part by the will of the Council.

The Council sought further control over humanity in response to that incident, but were deterred by the Alliance's considerable military power.[/quote]
Except that humanity was a council race back then. What's so difficult to understand?

[quote]
Really? Does NATO allow any state to join? Or are they an exclusive club like the Council?[/quote]
What. We are talking about idividual equality. The Council does recognize that every person is entitled to some basic "human" rights. And it's one thing for the NATO to help (NATO helping? Welp.) another state but not accept it as a NATO member because it doesn't fulfill some requirements.

[quote]The Council by nature elevates itself above others and uses arbitrary requirements to produce a barrier to entry to keep others out. Humanity kicked the door down with the Battle of the Citadel. If the Council had not allowed them to join at that point, public opinion would have turned heavily against them and it might have destabilized the whole system.[/quote]
Council member =/= Council seat.

[quote]The Council races think they have the right to rule over others because of past deeds. If they treated everyone as equals, all races would have a Council seat.[/quote]
Uh-huh, they love ordering non-Council races like the Batarians to do stuff.


[quote]
Stepping on everyone else? What makes you think that is necessary or desirable for TIM?

But anyhow, I think I'm going to stop here. You seem far too sensational and biased when it comes to this discussion. I should have just stopped when you brought up Hitler.[/quote]
"Too interested in appeasement and kowtowing to the various alien species, they were unable, or unwilling, to make the hard decisions necessary to thrust humanity toward it's destiny."

But if you will feel better thinking that TIM is a hero who doesn't order the torturing of children, you can go ahead.

[Bad King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'd imagine that the majority of the batarians are turned into Cannibals, so it'd probably be a little hard to fight them in their "pure" form.

That said, I'd rather take on the husk horde than fight Cerberus for like 40 % of the game. At least the husk have varied forms.

I agree, but there are still plenty of other potential enemies other than Cerberus, Batarians or husks.

Modifié par Bad King, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cerberus is misused.

Me 1 was great.
While ME2 story was worse, Cerberus in ME2 was a good idea. It was fresh and TIM was agreat charcter.
Then came a avalnce of Cerberus experimetns and really bad writing.
Cerberus have become a laughing stock.

And now ME3?? And this drivel?
Really, the setting is ruined for me...supernova from destroying a relay? Cerberus super-comical incompetence? Cerberus as main opposition? TIM as antagonist? F**** that!

No matter what comes now, this game will never, EVER be great for me. Because the setting officialy stinks (for me).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...

"Only cares about humanity?" He puts humanity first before others because its his own race, just as I put my own family first before others. That does not automatically mean I think less of them, they're just not my family. There is nothing unusual about that.

Yeah and you believe that the rightful position of your family is over the rest of the families. And I have yet to see TIM helping other "families".

Do they need much help? And do you go helping other families when your is in need?
Priorities.
But note that races/nations aren't families, so that analogy is only somewhat correct.
To want your own nation/race to be strong and powerfull - nothing wrong with that.


And really man. Enough with the Godwins. You're not making yourself appear objective and reserved at all.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 juillet 2011 - 08:21 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I guess Bioware should do more to define Cerberus as a real threat... because thusfar, they've developed a reputation of always screwing things up... even when that's not true.

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Absolutely not.

Cerberus was being set up as the villain in both of the previous games. Especially ME2 where we discover the role of TIM. We need a human enemy to sort of, "connect" to, you know, an easy one to hate. It's pretty hard to do that with sentient starships.

TIM will take a similar role that Saren took in ME1, and well, I think that TIM is infinitely more deep than Saren was. I couldn't think of a better antagonist.

Mass Effect 2 left a completely different impression on me. I saw Cerberus as allies who were morally questionable and who you could never fully trust- to me there was almost nothing to imply that Cerberus were going to be antagonists in ME3 (apart from Kaidan/Ashley's silly theory that Cerberus were behind the colony attacks and TIM's evil smile).

I have a feeling that Cerberus being antagonists in ME3 wasn't planned until after ME2 was released (mainly as a means to gain a new enemy other than just husks).

It certainly wasn't since at the end of Retribution (which is set after ME2) TIM doesn't rule out working with Anderson of all people against the Reapers.

[sevach]

A bunch of bad moves by Bioware writers imo.

Everything that happens in the galaxy is Cerberus experiments gone bad.
And using Cerberus as the "Eclipse mercs" of ME3, just terrible...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seboist wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Absolutely not.

Cerberus was being set up as the villain in both of the previous games. Especially ME2 where we discover the role of TIM. We need a human enemy to sort of, "connect" to, you know, an easy one to hate. It's pretty hard to do that with sentient starships.

TIM will take a similar role that Saren took in ME1, and well, I think that TIM is infinitely more deep than Saren was. I couldn't think of a better antagonist.

Mass Effect 2 left a completely different impression on me. I saw Cerberus as allies who were morally questionable and who you could never fully trust- to me there was almost nothing to imply that Cerberus were going to be antagonists in ME3 (apart from Kaidan/Ashley's silly theory that Cerberus were behind the colony attacks and TIM's evil smile).

I have a feeling that Cerberus being antagonists in ME3 wasn't planned until after ME2 was released (mainly as a means to gain a new enemy other than just husks).

It certainly wasn't since at the end of Retribution (which is set after ME2) TIM doesn't rule out working with Anderson of all people against the Reapers.

Agreed.  TIM is not above working with anyone.  He even resurrected his enemy (Shepard) to team up with. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:23 .

[Savber100]

sevach wrote...

A bunch of bad moves by Bioware writers imo.

Everything that happens in the galaxy is Cerberus experiments gone bad.
And using Cerberus as the "Eclipse mercs" of ME3, just terrible...

Yet, they gave the world a second chance by resurrecting you. Ooooh evil!

Think about it.. if Cerberus hadn't interfered where would you be right now? Sure we disagree with their philosophy but we can't say the results had been 100% bad.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus is misused.

Me 1 was great.
While ME2 story was worse, Cerberus in ME2 was a good idea. It was fresh and TIM was agreat charcter.
Then came a avalnce of Cerberus experimetns and really bad writing.
Cerberus have become a laughing stock.

And now ME3?? And this drivel?
Really,
the setting is ruined for me...supernova from destroying a relay?
Cerberus super-comical incompetence? Cerberus as main opposition? TIM as
antagonist? F**** that!

No matter what comes now, this game will never, EVER be great for me. Because the setting officialy stinks (for me).

...
The Cerberus in ME2 was a morally questionable organization. We see rogue elements in ME where we reveal the dark nature of Cerberus. In ME2, we see the offical elements that was responsible for resurrecting your sorried ass after the Collector ambush and helping you take down the Collectors, setting them up as a watchful protector of humanity and a useful ally. However, the recent experiments wakes you up to reality. Despite Cerberus' good intentions, they are driven by a dangerous utilitarian ideal. For me, this casts a complex moral question of the nature of Cerberus. They are not a total evil or a total good.

I find it sad that you've already decided to hate this even before it has been released.

Oh well, I guess the fact that the game is mostly about exploring alien culture and creating alliances haven't occured to you.

And what are you talking about "supernova destroying a relay"... What does that have to do with Cerberus?

Modifié par Savber100, 19 juillet 2011 - 10:02 .

[Savber100]

double post

Modifié par Savber100, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:37 .

[Skorpion_hrv]

''All people are born equal, but different.''

I presume you mean equal in essence, in the very fact that we are human or sentient (and that we stay equal later on). That's nice, but it's only an idea with no practical consequences. If I'm smarter, I'll have better grades, be more successful in life, if I'm more attractive I'll easily find a girlfriend/boyfriend etc. The things that actually define your life derive from those differences you mentioned which makes our alleged equality completely irrelevant and therefore nonexistent in reality, since it is an idea, of course.

In other news, I completely agree with Invernes Moon, keep up the good work. I also support Cerberus.

p.s. I won't debate over this.

[Ianamus]

Phaedon wrote...

Absolutely not.

Cerberus was being set up as the villain in both of the previous games. Especially ME2 where we discover the role of TIM. We need a human enemy to sort of, "connect" to, you know, an easy one to hate. It's pretty hard to do that with sentient starships.

TIM will take a similar role that Saren took in ME1, and well, I think that TIM is infinitely more deep than Saren was. I couldn't think of a better antagonist.

Whether it was set up or not, even whether or not Cerberus are a good villain, these do not change the fact that Cerberus receives a ridiculous ammount of attention. Even if they are one of the primary antagonists, that does not mean that they have to be the focus of every story.

Look at the Harry potter series. Voldemort is the main antagonist, but he is not mentioned every five seconds. Many chapters can go by without any direct reference at all, the only protagonist who has a direct link to the antagonist is the main character, and the writer understands that there are many different elements to the story besides the villain.

Compare that to Cerberus. In the books one of the primary protagonists also worked for Cerberus, and Kahlee, Gillian and Anderson have all been chased, fought against, and have a personal vendetta against Cerberus.

In the Games Shepard, Jack, Tali, Miranda and Jacob are all either Cerberus agents or have Cerberus written into their plot in one way or another, forgetting the fact that your all on a Cerberus ship, working for them, and that their leader gives you an 'overview' at the end of every mission.

Even the in game cultures; the Turian military, the Migrant fleet, when we see these in the novels they are fighting Cerberus. Stop shoving them in my face at every oppourtunity!

I understand that you need a human antagonist to relate to, but they do not have to have a connection to everything and everyone in the universe!. Do we really need to not be able to go two lines of dialogue without hearing their name for them to be effective??

In Mass Effect 3 we'll be fingthing Cerberus on the Quarian Homeworld (as seen in the demo), the salrian homeworld, and god knows where else. This means that Cerberus will be part of everything
The Geth/Quarian conflict, the genophage, things that should have absolutely nothing to do with them. I want to speak to Krogans, arrange peace with the Quarians, not deal with %£$&ing Cerberus where they have no relevence at all!

Modifié par EJ107, 19 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Savber100 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus is misused.

Me 1 was great.
While ME2 story was worse, Cerberus in ME2 was a good idea. It was fresh and TIM was agreat charcter.
Then came a avalnce of Cerberus experimetns and really bad writing.
Cerberus have become a laughing stock.

And now ME3?? And this drivel?
Really,
the setting is ruined for me...supernova from destroying a relay?
Cerberus super-comical incompetence? Cerberus as main opposition? TIM as
antagonist? F**** that!

No matter what comes now, this game will never, EVER be great for me. Because the setting officialy stinks (for me).

...
The Cerberus in ME2 was a morally questionable organization. We see rogue elements in ME where we reveal the dark nature of Cerberus. In ME2, we see the offical elements that was responsible for resurrecting your sorried ass after the Collector ambush and helping you take down the Collectors, setting them up as a watchful protector of humanity and a useful ally. However, the recent experiments wakes you up to reality. Despite Cerberus' good intentions, they are driven by a dangerous utilitarian ideal. For me, this casts a complex moral question of the nature of Cerberus. They are not a total evil or a total good.

I find it sad that you've already decided to hate this even before it has been released.

Oh well, I guess the fact that the game is mostly about exploring alien culture and creating alliances haven't occured to you.

And what are you talking about "supernova destroying a relay"... What does that have to do with Cerberus?

I didn't decide to hate anything. I said ME3 cannot be GREAT for me if the setting/atmosphere is ruined for me, as that is cruical for me in a RPG.
That doesn't mean it can't be good game if everything else is done good.
I'm a very fair man when it comes to this. I can dislike a game/movie without rating it as trash. I give proper credit where it's due.

Supernova? Just another example of bad writing IMHO.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:54 .

[CuseGirl]

EJ107 wrote...

I've made a few posts about this recently, and read a few others, and I think that this deserves a topic. 

Cerberus worked well as the background antagonist with links to the Alliance that it was in Mass Effect 1. In Mass Effect Effect 2 they had a larger role, but were still fresh, and worked well with story. 

But since then literally all Mass Effect Media has focused on them. Ascension, Retribution, Deception, Evolution, Galaxy, Invasion, all of them feature Cerberus. Mass Effect 3 will have 40% of it's enemies being Cerberus, so if you see an enemy that's a nearly 50% chance that it will be one of them!

They were already less interesting (in my opinion) than the other races/factions in the game, being (again, in my opinion) a fairly generic terrorist group, and what little novelty they had wore thin several books/comics ago.
Compare them to the Migrant fleet, that only appeared in one of the Novels outside of the game, or Turian society, which was looked at only briefly in Retribution. Even then they were second to Cerberus. The Krogan/Asari/Salarians have barely appeared outside the games at all, other than the odd individual. 

Although I do not like using the term, it reminds me of the Mary Sue, a character that appears to be the creators 'favourite' and becomes the centre of attention, to the extent that even when they are not present they are being talked about or mentioned. However much Bioware seemingly likes them, there are many people who much prefer the other races and factions of the game, and they are not accounted for.

I'm not saying that they have ruined the franchise for me, but I do feel that Bioware really should take a break from the Cerberus stories and finally focus on something else. I fear that they will once again take the spotlight in Mass Effect 3, maybe even recieving more screentime than the Reapers themselves. 

wouldn't Miranda be Mary Sue? And why is it such an issue that Cerberus is the "bad guy"? With most series, there are multiple villians but only one actual group you're fighting. It keeps it simple for the audience.

You say Cerberus gets too much attention as if the majority of ME players actually read the comics and novels and even KNOW of anyone else to fear in the ME "universe".

Modifié par CuseGirl, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[Boiny Bunny]

To be honest, I think Bioware just like the idea of having a whole bunch of generic humanoids you can fight as the main bread and butter in combat. I expect fighting Cerberus men in ME3 will feel about as generic as fighting bandits/thugs/mercenaries (all with the same models) in DA2 (where they were about 92% of the game's enemies).

[Piotrburz]

I find most laughable, that TIM invest so much time and money for resurrecting Shepard, when after all those effords in collector ship, finding iff, shepard can say to TIM: "Oh i destroyed your precious base". TIM even don't get too much anger on that.
Preserving collectors base was a primary goal for TIM, so it's pretty stupid that his people [miranda and jacob] couldn't interfere shepard decision. I hoped TIM was much smarter, and have his "loyal praetorians" among shepard crew.
In ME1 cerberus appears to be pure evil, Rachni experiments, zombies, experiments on people.
But in ME2 they are like "oh **** we are bad, we have to change" so there aren't any recent unethical experiments made by cerberus, of course aside overlord dlc. Experiment on subject jack were performed long ago before ME2 start. And those new Cerberus crew[miranda, jacob] are so trusty and good characters, don't remember any unethical actions from them.

Modifié par Piotrburz, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[Stormrider 15]

i belive it was at e3 or someplace that it was announced cerberus was completely indoctrinated... what does that mean if you handed the collecter base to them do you think they will sacrafice themselves to build the reapers numbers?

Modifié par Stormrider 15, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:24 .

[Piotrburz]

The whole human reaper thing is so stupid. Reapers appears as a sentient ships, how the hell that human reaper supposed to fly? A superman in space
Good that we disposed collectors, but i can't stand more of such idiocy in ME3. I hope if cerberus decide to made reapers[of course if you preserved collector base] then, they will have sovereign form. But how the hell cerberus aqquire sovereign "class ship" blueprint, if collectors made human reaper?

Modifié par Piotrburz, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:40 .

[Bad King]

Piotrburz wrote...

The whole human reaper thing is so stupid. Reapers appears as a sentient ships, how the hell that human reaper supposed to fly? A superman in space
Good that we disposed collectors, but i can't stand more of such idiocy in ME3. I hope if cerberus decide to made reapers[of course if you preserved collector base] then, they will have sovereign form. But how the hell cerberus aqquire sovereign "class ship" blueprint, if collectors made human reaper?

Mac Walters confirmed in an interview that the human reaper models would have formed the core of the reapers. So in a way the models of the species fed into the reapers would be 'wearing' a spaceship shell. So with Sovereign and Harbinger, we are only looking at their outer shells, not what the original species looked like.

[CuseGirl]

Bad King wrote...

Mac Walters confirmed in an interview that the human reaper models would have formed the core of the reapers. So in a way the models of the species fed into the reapers would be 'wearing' a spaceship shell. So with Sovereign and Harbinger, we are only looking at their outer shells, not what the original species looked like.

when a Reaper is built, it can only attack those that were fed to the core?

[Piotrburz]

Bad King i know that outer shell of reaper resemble the species which was made of.
But as i said, it's very stupid idea. It was brought in ME2, in ME1 on virmir you can actually talk with sovereign and he appears as "outer shell". So i assume it is his true form.
Even more nazara and harbinger looks same, so it also prove that this is their true form.

[Bad King]

Piotrburz wrote...

Bad King i know that outer shell of reaper resemble the species which was made of.
But as i said, it's very stupid idea. It was brought in ME2, in ME1 on virmir you can actually talk with sovereign and he appears as "outer shell". So i assume it is his true form.
Even more nazara and harbinger looks same, so it also prove that this is their true form.

Until the interview with Mac Walters I thought the same. But it seems now that the cuttlefish ship design is merely a shell and doesn't resemble the species it was built from. I agree that it's a bit silly.

Modifié par Bad King, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:58 .

[Piotrburz]

Yeah a bit silly. I felt like playing Metal Slug instead of ME...
In comparison to really wise things like explaining quantum entanglement by edi, or some codex entries about ships technology, it felt like human reaper was like taken out from ass, completely unexpected.
So i can expect silly keeper reapers. A grasshooper doom of galaxy.