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Stop catering to newcomers


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#226
OdanUrr

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Valcutio wrote...
I agree. GAMES are for everyone. Mass Effect 3 is for fans of Mass Effect 1 and/or 2. Just like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were for fans of A New Hope.

"A New Hope"??? True Fans™ call it "Star Wars" because that was the name of the movie upon release. Anyone who calls it "A New Hope' obviously came into the franchise later and is not allowed to enjoy "The Empire Strikes Back." That movie was made for us, the True Fans™

See? the more exclusive I get with my statements and the more adamant I am about insisting I am the only, best, or correct audience that should be catered to, the sillier I sound. :)


Anyone who doesn't know about "The Journal of the Whills" isn't a True Fan™.B)

#227
CuseGirl

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Valcutio wrote...
I agree. GAMES are for everyone. Mass Effect 3 is for fans of Mass Effect 1 and/or 2. Just like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were for fans of A New Hope.

"A New Hope"??? True Fans™ call it "Star Wars" because that was the name of the movie upon release. Anyone who calls it "A New Hope' obviously came into the franchise later and is not allowed to enjoy "The Empire Strikes Back." That movie was made for us, the True Fans™

See? the more exclusive I get with my statements and the more adamant I am about insisting I am the only, best, or correct audience that should be catered to, the sillier I sound. :)


it doesn't help that you have a Volus for your profile pic, so I'm imagining "Just like....::breathe:: Empire Strikes Back....::breathe:: and Return of the ::breathe:: Jedi....."

#228
Xarathox

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Destroy Raiden wrote...

I agree with OP. That's why I liked red dead redemption they didn't go all into hand holding for me as to who was whom I'd like to go back and get the first red dead because of it. Movies do this and games should as well a mini recap maybe like for instance say Vegas asks shep so how do you know Liara and shep says he saved her Therim and she helped him stop Saren no big explanation on who did what where just a simple answer it allows new players to get the relationship and old ones to remember all the specifics.


Red Dead Revolver has nothing to do with Red Dead Redemption.

Revolver was just a rail shooter that R* bought from capcom to finish. Redemption was an attempt to reboot the name and basically make a GTA on horseback (but even that's inaccurate).

#229
DTKT

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Stanley Woo wrote...
snip


I'd argue that most of the critcism regarding DAII was not really related to it's combat mechanic but mostly about the quality of the game. It's production value, the quality of it's content or the feeling that you had a complete package.

And I think there is only one issue here. Most "hardcore"(I hate that word) Bioware and ME fans are afraid of one thing.

That because you want the franchise to grow, to expand beyond it's standard fanbase, you actually make choices that would undermine the logical progression from one game to the next simply because you don't want to confuse the new player. And to a point, that's what Bioware needs to do. The ME games are not easy game to get into. There is plenty of lore, story for a player to understand the ME universe.

To a point, a producer dream is to have every single game standalone. So that any player that has no experience with a franchise can still enjoy his time. Even the Halo franchise ran into the same problem. Reach was so "niche" regarding it's story and it's place in the Halo universe that it was hard for anyone without any exprience to actually understand anything. Imagine the challenge with ME, it's an RPG for christ sake!

Either way, here lies the challenge for Bioware and ME3. How do you strike the perfect balance between continuity and fan service for consumers that bought the previous two games. Consumers that, like or not, are the reason you are where you are. And the other "new" fan that just got into the series.

I wish you the best of luck. ^_^

#230
fivefingaslap18

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Piotrburz wrote...

fivefingaslap18

A good point.
In brief future we will see how EA influence bioware. Right now DA2 was screwed by EA greed.
Only ME2 was a good game after EA bought bioware. Remember that DA:O was mostly had made when EA bought bioware.


Never stated EA made DA:O. Just that after EA had bought BioWare the DA2 was a travesty. I know EA had very little influence on DA:O, just that they made BioWare put it on consoles. Had BioWare not been bought out by EA, we'd see 2 different sequels right now.

Miswrote there a second and felt the need to clarify before anyone says I'm wrong. Loved DA:O.

Modifié par fivefingaslap18, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:14 .


#231
BluSoldier

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Valcutio wrote...
I agree. GAMES are for everyone. Mass Effect 3 is for fans of Mass Effect 1 and/or 2. Just like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were for fans of A New Hope.

"A New Hope"??? True Fans™ call it "Star Wars" because that was the name of the movie upon release. Anyone who calls it "A New Hope' obviously came into the franchise later and is not allowed to enjoy "The Empire Strikes Back." That movie was made for us, the True Fans™

See? the more exclusive I get with my statements and the more adamant I am about insisting I am the only, best, or correct audience that should be catered to, the sillier I sound. :)


The OP does not want new people to be allowed to enjoy ME3.  He just wants them to have to have played ME1 and 2 first.

#232
Piotrburz

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The "hardcore" players just don't want EA to spoil ME legacy. You know, like with FIFA series,Red alert. I imagine a future with ME X[put a number above 3] which won't have any ties to its predecessor.

Sorry for my english im not a native speaker.

And why the hell at present times, game companies can't make games like Baldur's Gate but with great graphic? It would be totally awesome to have BG in modern graphic with appropriate ambience[not some fancy colors like World of Warcraft].
Oh i see it won't sell well. So tell me, isn't a truism that cash=dumber game?

Modifié par Piotrburz, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:24 .


#233
Piotrburz

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----

duplicate post.

Modifié par Piotrburz, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:22 .


#234
Stanley Woo

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I really appreciate the thought you put into your post, fivefingaslap18, but I'm going to cut it up into tiny chunks in order to respond.

fivefingaslap18 wrote...
I think what the OP wants is to really allow the story to continue without the problem of reintroduction.

This is absolutely fine, but remember that BioWare/EA is a business, and as such, will try to make as much money as it can on a product. Given that videogame budgets have increased significantly in the last decade while game prices have stayed relatively the same, games have to sell more in order to be profitable. the same goes for movies. You know why the vast majority of movies are rated PG? Because that's the rating that is the most accessible to the greatest number of potential viewers, and therefore, has the greatest potential for sales.

However, I think what we're worried about is that while those who have played 1 and 2, or 2 and then have gone back to 1 or have not done so will pick up the game at the 3rd installment.

Why are you concerned about what other people buy or don't buy? You want a product that appeals to you, right? Why do you care about what Joe Gamer or Susie MassEffectFan thinks of the product? Does it matter to you how other people play our game? Or why they purchased it?

For EA, to say BioWare must change it's mantra as a gaming company is not unexpected, but it is unacceptable.

I think you're exaggerating a little too much in this paragraph. You make it sound like EA's acquisition of BioWare was forced, that EA has such control over BioWare that everything we do is micromanaged up the wazoo. This is not the case. EA recognizes BioWare's talent and commitment to quality, which is one reason it bought us in the first place. You generally don't acquire a talent like, say, Steve Nash (NBA basketball), and then tell him how to dribble or when to shoot or who to pass to whenever he gets the ball. No, you give him general guidelines regarding what you expect of him, you provide feedback if there are problems, and you support him because you've spent a lot of money acquiring him. You want to let him do what he does best, which is play basketball. Well, maybe he makes a wicked Denver omelette, but he's never invited me to breakfast. ;)

I'm not angry that you include new things. I'm angry how you implement them. DA2 is a hyped up, and bribed travesty.

And it's at this point in the paranoid, hyperbolic diatribe that I stop listening to what you have to say. If you can't be constructive and keep a civil tongue, then I'd rather not deal with you. Equating Dragon Age II with the American banking crisis and the global economic problems is ridiculous. It's a frigging videogame, for Pete's sake. Let's maintain some perspective here. Disliking stuff we do is fine. Suggesting things we could do better next time is even better. But saying we should never have tried anything new, or that anything you don't like is proof of conspiracy, fraud, and/or incompetence is one of my pet peeves on this forum.

If that's the way you want to argue, we're done here. I ain't playing that way.

#235
Guest_mrsph_*

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Is it really that big of a deal that we will have to impart some exposition to Vega?

Heck knowing Bioware, they'll probably give you an option to tell him to "find out yourself!" and skip it entirely anyway.

#236
Terror_K

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I still think that you guys wasted too much potential for the series to be a true trilogy by making it cater too much towards newcomers to the series with ME2 and again with ME3 (especially with comments like, "ME3 is the BEST place to jump in" which just makes it sound like those who have already jumped in are missing out on something) and by styling the entire trilogy as three stand-alone titles instead of a proper trilogy consisting of three parts. Each title being stand-alone I think has isolated them a bit too much and lost a good deal of flow and consistency from the overall story and even style. ME2 felt so damn removed from ME1 story-wise and made it seem like far too much that was supposed to be important was either pushed into the background, swept under the rug or just made nowhere near as important as it seemed via some cop-outs and minimal focus on the subjects.

Star Wars keeps being brought up, but the original Star Wars films didn't get created as stand-alone movies where they were designed for anybody to just jump-in: they were designed as a proper trilogy where the viewer was somewhat expected to have seen the previous movie. Empire and Jedi were very much dependent on the prior films for proper clarity and followed on from each other directly, and were never stand-alone entries. They didn't have a whole bunch of pipe or recaps for newcomers and they didn't change the story so much so that it only had the tiniest links to the previous one(s) so that it could begin a whole new arc. Same goes for the Lord of the Rings movies. Even the Harry Potter ones (I saw Dealthy Hallows: Part I earlier this year, and the only other films I'd seen were the first two. It confused the hell out of me.). When it came to the flow and narrative, jumping from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 felt less like going from A New Hope to Empire and more like going from Phantom Menace to A New Hope.

Mass Effect really had great potential to be a proper trilogy that was truly one big story dependent on the other titles to function properly, but it wasted it by this "stand alone game" approach, IMO.

#237
Valcutio

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Valcutio wrote...
I agree. GAMES are for everyone. Mass Effect 3 is for fans of Mass Effect 1 and/or 2. Just like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were for fans of A New Hope.

"A New Hope"??? True Fans™ call it "Star Wars" because that was the name of the movie upon release. Anyone who calls it "A New Hope' obviously came into the franchise later and is not allowed to enjoy "The Empire Strikes Back." That movie was made for us, the True Fans™

See? the more exclusive I get with my statements and the more adamant I am about insisting I am the only, best, or correct audience that should be catered to, the sillier I sound. :)


Mr. Woo. So we meet again! Ok, you said a lot so I'm not gonna quote everything.

My "70s outdated movie" comment has been (understandably) taken out of the context I meant it.

I simply meant that after the original trilogy it was years upon years before George Lucas decided to change up the formula as drastically as he did in order to attract a new, younger demographic. He didn't finish Return of the Jedi and within a year go, "Hey everyone! Meet JarJar Binks! And Han didn't shoot first! And I replaced everything with CG! Yay!" This was many years later.

My point is that we're only looking at a couple years between games. ME2 went on to win award after award and it attained fan loyalty to a staggering degree. I'm all for innovations and bigger and better. What I'm against is bashing someone because they want more of what they fell in love with - which is what quite a few people did in this thread.

The OP simply wanted a bigger spotlight shown on the established characters and I have to ask - is that so bad?

#238
Shadow of Light Dragon

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When I start playing a game series from a middle episode, much like a tv, book or movie series, I expect there to be a learning curve. A small recap at the start, maybe, but I don't expect the major elements to change just to cater to me, who has jumped in midway...I do expect it to maintain what the current fans love, because it's likely due to their recommendation that I'm tuning in to begin with.

I know technology in games is evolving a bit differently to what you'd expect from books/tv/movies so the comparison is hardly perfect, but that's my 2c anyway. I don't think you need to go out of your way to cater extensively to new players...if you make the current ones happy, new ones will come by recommendation alone.

#239
Spartanburger

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Stanley Woo wrote...
*minorsnip*

I'm not angry that you include new things. I'm angry how you implement them. DA2 is a hyped up, and bribed travesty.

And it's at this point in the paranoid, hyperbolic diatribe that I stop listening to what you have to say. If you can't be constructive and keep a civil tongue, then I'd rather not deal with you. Equating Dragon Age II with the American banking crisis and the global economic problems is ridiculous. It's a frigging videogame, for Pete's sake. Let's maintain some perspective here. Disliking stuff we do is fine. Suggesting things we could do better next time is even better. But saying we should never have tried anything new, or that anything you don't like is proof of conspiracy, fraud, and/or incompetence is one of my pet peeves on this forum.

If that's the way you want to argue, we're done here. I ain't playing that way.

Okay guys, Woo just won the thread. You can all go home now.

I would like to add one thing to this last paragraph though.
If I recall correctly, the Dragon Age team is not the same team as the Mass Effect team.
That means that what happens to Dragon Age will not necessarily happen to Mass Effect.

#240
Kusy

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OP is right, everyone who is in oposition go crush yourself because I can't be bothered to crush oposition at the moment.

#241
Digifi

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I think the movie analogy really fails hard here guys. I can spend about 4 hours and be caught up and ready to watch Jedi Strikes Back... To get a full story arc with all the convos I'm spending 60-70 hours combined on ME1&2. Hell, it takes me less time to read Fellowship and Two Towers than to play ME1&2.

#242
crimzontearz

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I have to agree with TerrorK

and yes I have said 1000000000000000000 times that ME is my all time favorite gaming serie and individually most played game and EVERY game I play has to measure up to it

but

I feel like the approach taken to draw new people in reduced its potential as a trilogy.

Take it as you please Mr Woo, it is just my opinion, my N7 edition is already paid in full and I took 2 days off to enjoy ME2 in its fullest next year.


that said I have to get something off my chest. We need to STOP catering to the lazy and the stupid in general. It's slowly ruining entertainment in general especially the videogame industry

#243
CuseGirl

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Valcutio wrote...

The OP simply wanted a bigger spotlight shown on the established characters and I have to ask - is that so bad?


considering everyone plays ME-1 and ME-2 differently, the group of "established" characters may be different for everyone. I'm aware that Liara, Tali, and Garrus were in ME-1 but I really have no connection to them, so they have no establishment to me.

All game sequels should keep the threads of wut made the first one great but in a smart way, add on new squares to the quilt:

In ME-2, characters like Miranda, Grunt and Jack (3 characters with different personalities but all engineered to be someone's dream/unicorn) were introduced to us and we helped them get over their core issues. Then you have Samara and Thane with their ideas of honor and duty and blah blah blah. Then you have the Legion, a true sentient Geth with wants, desires and dislikes.

The new inventory system (compared to the old one) makes more sense: you get millions of creds from Cerberus, why can't everyone have a hand cannon? 

Hopefully, this James Vega will go over well. Heck, he may just be there because some Latino gamers want to be represented. And if we're really lucky, the new melee system will be good.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:48 .


#244
Dr. Nexas

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Stan Lee once said that every comic is someone's first. There is no reason why this philosophy shouldn't be applied to games either. I also find it preposterous that the only way to cater to new players is to completely abandon old ones. Come on people, Bioware isn't incompetent. Its hardly impossible to bring new players up to speed while also making good on old promises to the old guard.

#245
blind black

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Spartanburger wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
*minorsnip*

I'm not angry that you include new things. I'm angry how you implement them. DA2 is a hyped up, and bribed travesty.

And it's at this point in the paranoid, hyperbolic diatribe that I stop listening to what you have to say. If you can't be constructive and keep a civil tongue, then I'd rather not deal with you. Equating Dragon Age II with the American banking crisis and the global economic problems is ridiculous. It's a frigging videogame, for Pete's sake. Let's maintain some perspective here. Disliking stuff we do is fine. Suggesting things we could do better next time is even better. But saying we should never have tried anything new, or that anything you don't like is proof of conspiracy, fraud, and/or incompetence is one of my pet peeves on this forum.

If that's the way you want to argue, we're done here. I ain't playing that way.

Okay guys, Woo just won the thread. You can all go home now.

I would like to add one thing to this last paragraph though.
If I recall correctly, the Dragon Age team is not the same team as the Mass Effect team.
That means that what happens to Dragon Age will not necessarily happen to Mass Effect.


ouch that ownage had to hurt. mr woo has been tearing it up. 
*back to topic 
isolating newcomers is not good business stratedgy at all.Elitism is one of the things ive always hated about BSN. 

#246
blind black

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crimzontearz wrote...

*snip*


that said I have to get something off my chest. We need to STOP catering to the lazy and the stupid in general. It's slowly ruining entertainment in general especially the videogame industry


define lazy and stupid? 

#247
Lucifer_Cheney

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blind black wrote...

Spartanburger wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
*minorsnip*

I'm not angry that you include new things. I'm angry how you implement them. DA2 is a hyped up, and bribed travesty.

And it's at this point in the paranoid, hyperbolic diatribe that I stop listening to what you have to say. If you can't be constructive and keep a civil tongue, then I'd rather not deal with you. Equating Dragon Age II with the American banking crisis and the global economic problems is ridiculous. It's a frigging videogame, for Pete's sake. Let's maintain some perspective here. Disliking stuff we do is fine. Suggesting things we could do better next time is even better. But saying we should never have tried anything new, or that anything you don't like is proof of conspiracy, fraud, and/or incompetence is one of my pet peeves on this forum.

If that's the way you want to argue, we're done here. I ain't playing that way.

Okay guys, Woo just won the thread. You can all go home now.

I would like to add one thing to this last paragraph though.
If I recall correctly, the Dragon Age team is not the same team as the Mass Effect team.
That means that what happens to Dragon Age will not necessarily happen to Mass Effect.


ouch that ownage had to hurt. mr woo has been tearing it up. 
*back to topic 
isolating newcomers is not good business stratedgy at all.Elitism is one of the things ive always hated about BSN. 


Neither is abandoning the loyal ones. I'm far from an elitist and I certainly have confidence ME3 will please old and new fans alike, but I understand the concern that the desire for mass appeal may hurt BW in the long term should they  dismiss the hardcore crowd as zealots.

Modifié par Lucifer_Cheney, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:53 .


#248
Had-to-say

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Damn...

#249
Beerfish

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blind black wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

*snip*


that said I have to get something off my chest. We need to STOP catering to the lazy and the stupid in general. It's slowly ruining entertainment in general especially the videogame industry


define lazy and stupid? 


Not to mention that if the world stopped catering to the lazy and the stupid that the economy would grind to a halt.  Also the fact that there are MANY people who think they are smart or tuned in that are in fact stupid.

#250
crimzontearz

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blind black wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

*snip*


that said I have to get something off my chest. We need to STOP catering to the lazy and the stupid in general. It's slowly ruining entertainment in general especially the videogame industry


define lazy and stupid? 


those who just cannot be bothered to do some research and expect every piece of game/movie/show to be utterly standalone. Those who expect and demand to have the very same experience jumping into the 3d part of a trilogy as those who have been following it from the beginning. Those who cannot be bothered to play a game unless it is broken down to its most simple components and all the depth (depth not accessibility) is stripped away

I could go on.....