375 réponses à ce sujet

[littlezack]

Every developer that charges money for their games is interested in making as much money as they possibly can out of their product. If you believe different, you're just being dense.

[FoxHound109]

ReconTeam wrote...

Heh, I think you're missing that pretty much everything on these forums is opinion and elitist attitude. Yet how exaclty is Vega supposed to direct new players? Will he be Captain Obvious or something? Do we need more "introduction" than we got with Jacob in ME2? Many didn't like Jacob and it looks like this guy is stacked up to be even more boring. I think there is certainly reason for people to think he's going to be "meh" at best.

We don't know any of those details yet. See, I don't get annoyed with comments like:

"I hope he's not as boring as Jacob was."

But I do get annoyed with comes like:

"Oh my God, he is going to be just as boring as Jacob."

The first is a legitimate fear. The second is an opinion trying to pass off as fact.

All I'm saying, in the end, is that the resources argument doesn't work because we don't actually know much about how those resources are even being used. Pretty simple.

Modifié par FoxHound109, 19 juillet 2011 - 06:54 .

[javierabegazo]

Agamo45 wrote...

It's not gonna happen with EA in charge. They want to met the largest audience, which means appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Comments like these are really sigh-worthy. It's a very 2D concept, "EA's the big bad wolf, blah blah blah" and yet EA still managed to put out games like ME2, and Dead Space 2. It's a very childish view, as if it's purpose is to validate the idea that your beloved developer can't possibly want to carry the direction of your favorite game in a way that doesn't directly correlate with that of your own.

[Mister Mida]

I think that catering to newbies is a bad excuse to judge a video game being poorly unless you have solid arguments.

I personally am very indifferent about other gamers' and their wishes. ME2 going to PS3? I didn't care. I don't really understand why Bioware defenders are still coming with the argument of 'Don't you want Bioware to reach new people?'. I don't see that as my responsibility. How is that still an issue after all the prestige gathering Bioware has done?

Trying to reach new people is fine and all, as long it's not trying to draw in people who don't even care for a bit about your product and need you to change your product to suit them. That's pure time wasting and will backfire. Sometimes you've reached your limit and you can't go further.

Just as I did previous games, I'll judge ME3 on not only on being good on it's own, but also in relation with its predecessors. I don't care that it's noob friendly, as long it doesn't do a reboot like it did in ME2, which was yes a bad way of catering to newbies.

[javierabegazo]

KaidanWilliamsShepard wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

It's not gonna happen with EA in charge. They want to met the largest audience, which means appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Comments like these are really sigh-worthy. It's a very 2D concept, "EA's the big bad wolf, blah blah blah" and yet EA still managed to put out games like ME2, and Dead Space 2. It's a very childish view, as if it's purpose is to validate the idea that your beloved developer can't possibly want to carry the direction of your favorite game in a way that doesn't directly correlate with that of your own.

Well, ME2 and Dead Space 2 were two very dumbed down and immature titles...just sayin'.

And that's my cue to head to bed. When I see someone write "Dumbed down", it's time to close the browser and participate in other more purposeful activities.

[Inquisitor Recon]

javierabegazo wrote...
And that's my cue to head to bed. When I see someone write "Dumbed down", it's time to close the browser and participate in other more purposeful activities.

/grognard

"And that's why real modern-era flight simulators are dead."

/grognard

Sleepy now?

Modifié par ReconTeam, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:05 .

[FoxHound109]

I don't get the hatred for EA. They were atrocious a few generations before, but they've been publishing some serious quality games since around 2004. It's not like Bioware is owned by that OTHER God awful gaming publisher (*Cough*Activision*Cough*). So the issue again is...?

[CitizenSnips]

Guns wrote...

 If people want to get into the series and know whats going on they should play the first two games. You shouldn't waste time and resources on an intro for new players or a character like James Vega. You don't go to a movie sequel and expect to understand it without seeing the first one. Video games should be no different especially ones focused and driven on story. 

I was going to counter your awful "argument" but my lately my friend has been advising me to not take idiots or trolls seriously. Spew on.

[fenix8081]

Put it this way: Bioware makes more money, Bioware makes more games. I want more Bioware they deliver what I want. While DA2 left a bad taste in my mouth, that's the only game so far that has. As long as that remains the case, Bring on all the James Vegas you want.

[FoxHound109]

Mister Mida wrote...

I think that catering to newbies is a bad excuse to judge a video game being poorly unless you have solid arguments.

I personally am very indifferent about other gamers' and their wishes. ME2 going to PS3? I didn't care. I don't really understand why Bioware defenders are still coming with the argument of 'Don't you want Bioware to reach new people?'. I don't see that as my responsibility. How is that still an issue after all the prestige gathering Bioware has done?

Trying to reach new people is fine and all, as long it's not trying to draw in people who don't even care for a bit about your product and need you to change your product to suit them. That's pure time wasting and will backfire. Sometimes you've reached your limit and you can't go further.

Just as I did previous games, I'll judge ME3 on not only on being good on it's own, but also in relation with its predecessors. I don't care that it's noob friendly, as long it doesn't do a reboot like it did in ME2, which was yes a bad way of catering to newbies.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's our responsability as gamers for Bioware to reacher a broader audience, simply that it's not Bioware's responsibility either to cater solely to those who complain. It's less about our responsibility and more about the reality of things.

I agree with your other points though. Well thought out.

[Fraevar]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ALERT: the world will end if we have a new character! I'll just go get ready for the Rapture right now. *snort*

The only "catering" to people who haven't played the previous games is the comic book intro where they get to select the major choices from the previous two games. I fail to see how 1) Vega is the result of catering to newcomers and 2) how Vega can possibly ruin the whole entire game. His role, as far as I can tell from what's been said about him, seems to be roughly equivalent to the raw recruit in a war movie who changes and matures through combat and through whom we partially experience that transformation. He is ONE companion out of all Shepard's companions - the rest of whom are EXISTING companions from either ME1 or ME2.

Warning: Opinions Ahead!

Well if we go by ME2 standards, there were some continuity problems when compared to ME1. Namely that ME2 did its best to try to forget ME1 existed and even the tiniest references were pushed into cameos or emails. When I play ME2 it feels like a pretty decent action game, no doubt of that but it doesn't really feel like a sequel to me, because of the massive disconnect BioWare imposed between it and ME1. When I was at the Galaxy Map I didn't feel a sense of advancing anything I felt like I was repeating what came before, only the ME2 version was more re-tooled. And given that BioWare essentially threw out the plot with the bathwater by killing off Shepard and having the Collector MacGuffin, ostensibly in the name of having ME2 be "accessable" to new players I think some of the OP's concerns are justified, even if the sense of entitlement is not.

The ME2 set up at the end of ME1 had Shepard going off and further investigating the Reapers, gradually losing the faith of the Council as they fail to really find anything. As we all know, that was not the game we got , the game we got was a stand-alone collection of short stories.

At the end of the day it's a balancing act and ME2 was leaning too heavily to one side, shoving almost all ME1 continuity to the side. I'm hoping for something else with ME3.

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:33 .

[CroGamer002]

SandTrout wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

 If Bioware does as you suggest they lose a huge portion of sales and future fans.   It would not be a smart business move.

^This.

On a side note, BSN is the most understanding of development limitations of just about any gaming forum I have ever participated in. I'm not sure why that is, though.

BSN and understanding is not something you should put in same sentence.

[Mister Mida]

FoxHound109 wrote...
I don't think anyone is saying that it's our responsability as gamers for Bioware to reacher a broader audience, simply that it's not Bioware's responsibility either to cater solely to those who complain. It's less about our responsibility and more about the reality of things.

Yeah well, sometimes I get really tired of people turning into Bioware evangelists and then start thinking Bioware should reach more people just because when most of them don't even know what they're talking about. Good companies don't need people like that and I think Bioware's own marketing people know how to do their job, despite what I think of them (Awesome button ).

Modifié par Mister Mida, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:34 .

[Someone With Mass]

Mesina2 wrote...

BSN and understanding is not something you should put in same sentence.

I second that.

Want proof? Look up BSN's general opinion on James Vega based on two whole pictures of him.

[Massadonious1]

Good companies don't need to expand?

Maybe on bizzaro world.

[SandTrout]

Mesina2 wrote...

BSN and understanding is not something you should put in same sentence.

Generally a sentiment I agree with, but how many other gaming forums have players that will actually point out that companies must do certain things in order to be successful?

It's all relative, after all. Especially on the internet.

[Halo Quea]

There's always bound to be some conflict when bringing new players in on the second and final acts of a gaming series. By the 3rd game an entire community has already been built around the franchise, they're ready to continue the story.

I do wish there was a way for new gamers to catch up without the developer always feeling the need to facilitate them in a manner that punishes the already established community of players.

[AtreiyaN7]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ALERT: the world will end if we have a new character! I'll just go get ready for the Rapture right now. *snort*

The only "catering" to people who haven't played the previous games is the comic book intro where they get to select the major choices from the previous two games. I fail to see how 1) Vega is the result of catering to newcomers and 2) how Vega can possibly ruin the whole entire game. His role, as far as I can tell from what's been said about him, seems to be roughly equivalent to the raw recruit in a war movie who changes and matures through combat and through whom we partially experience that transformation. He is ONE companion out of all Shepard's companions - the rest of whom are EXISTING companions from either ME1 or ME2.

Warning: Opinions Ahead!

Well if we go by ME2 standards, there were some continuity problems when compared to ME1. Namely that ME2 did its best to try to forget ME1 existed and even the tiniest references were pushed into cameos or emails. When I play ME2 it feels like a pretty decent action game, no doubt of that but it doesn't really feel like a sequel to me, because of the massive disconnect BioWare imposed between it and ME1. When I was at the Galaxy Map I didn't feel a sense of advancing anything I felt like I was repeating what came before, only the ME2 version was more re-tooled. And given that BioWare essentially threw out the plot with the bathwater by killing off Shepard and having the Collector MacGuffin, ostensibly in the name of having ME2 be "accessable" to new players I think some of the OP's concerns are justified, even if the sense of entitlement is not.

The ME2 set up at the end of ME1 had Shepard going off and further investigating the Reapers, gradually losing the faith of the Council as they fail to really find anything. As we all know, that was not the game we got , the game we got was a stand-alone collection of short stories.

At the end of the day it's a balancing act and ME2 was leaning too heavily to one side, shoving almost all ME1 continuity to the side. I'm hoping for something else with ME3.

*shrug* That depends on how you view the story - I saw it as the middle act, and whether or not they were e-mails or meetings with Shiala, Parasini, Helena Blake or whatever else, they were specifically related to events from ME1 - even if they were in small ways.  I really doubt that the devs can ever create a trilogy/series in which the player's decisions lead to wildly divergent conten because of the time and resources it would take, so what you end up with is getting some additional color flavor. However, perhaps decisions like saving/killing the Rachni Queen will be more impactful than something like the Blake cameo.

As for what ME2 was, to me the game we got involved putting a team together, investigating the attacks on human colonies and the final suicide mission to try to stop them. That some people don't like that the loyalty missions got more emphasis/didn't tie in to the first story enough is a matter of opinion. You didn't like it, whereas I didn't mind. I didn't feel my actions in ME1 were ignored vis-a-vis the small things mentioned in my first paragraph. To me, it was also the middle act in the trilogy. In SW:TESB, Lando was a new character. His role was, in part, to set events into motion (Han's betrayal) that led into SW:ROTJ.

I think the new characters in ME2, if somewhat excessive in number, did/will have their parts to play in the final act - and no, none of them is as cool as Lando, but that's a separate matter. At any rate, back to the issue of Vega, which is what the whole original post was about: the OP seems to somehow equate Vega with catering to newcomers. This is something that I simply don't see atm. What I did see was someone who apparently was somewhat disgruntled over DA2 (unless I'm remembering incorrectly and that was a different poster) and seems to want to lash out at a single character. After all, I believe what the OP said was this:

Guns wrote...

Existing fans, yes. Cater to current fans and if others decide they like what they see they can tag along, but don't throw your backs to them and cater to a different audience like Dragon Trash 2. 

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:02 .

[Xewaka]

javierabegazo wrote...
Alot of game developers are losing faith in normal "structured" video games, and are opting for the "free to play" method and just are out to nickel and dime their games with "Energy Packs" to continue playing for 30 min or, or to buy your way to Level 20 because you don't want to spend the time to earn it.

You mean like the alternate appearance packs and weapon packs DLC?

[Arppis]

Guns wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

So BioWare should cater to you instead?

Existing fans, yes. Cater to current fans and if others decide they like what they see they can tag along, but don't throw your backs to them and cater to a different audience like Dragon Trash 2. 

When you start catering to fans, the fans will be displeased and the new gamers will be displeased. Fans should be ignored in some degree and they should just do the game in their own way. They will end up shooting themselves to the leg if they start listening fans too much.

Modifié par Arppis, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:06 .

[ShadowSplicer]

The PLC wrote...

Guns wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

So BioWare should cater to you instead?

Existing fans, yes. Cater to current fans and if others decide they like what they see they can tag along, but don't throw your backs to them and cater to a different audience like Dragon Trash 2. 

Dude, the 'fans' clearly don't know what they want, and personally I'm glad Bioware are not listening even MORE to these people. If it was up to some people on here, Mass Effect would be an open world game where you romance andf f*** every single breathing thing in the game, build colonies and spend your time building your very own unique heavy armor (because every single person in Mass Effect needs heavy armor because of THE LORE!!11). 

James Vega is there for other reasons too. Imagine if you loose everyone but, let's say Mordin and Zaeed, in the suicide mission. Since these two characters are probably not a part of the permanent squad, you'll be left with just Ashley/Kaiden and Liara. Two squadmates for the entire game!

In my opinion if this happens, too bad. Cry all you want, you failed the Suicide Mission that badly, you should have to suffer for it. You write a story to tell it, not to grab every ounce of cash. Quality makes money.

[Arppis]

ShadowSplicer wrote...

The PLC wrote...

Guns wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

So BioWare should cater to you instead?

Existing fans, yes. Cater to current fans and if others decide they like what they see they can tag along, but don't throw your backs to them and cater to a different audience like Dragon Trash 2. 

Dude, the 'fans' clearly don't know what they want, and personally I'm glad Bioware are not listening even MORE to these people. If it was up to some people on here, Mass Effect would be an open world game where you romance andf f*** every single breathing thing in the game, build colonies and spend your time building your very own unique heavy armor (because every single person in Mass Effect needs heavy armor because of THE LORE!!11). 

James Vega is there for other reasons too. Imagine if you loose everyone but, let's say Mordin and Zaeed, in the suicide mission. Since these two characters are probably not a part of the permanent squad, you'll be left with just Ashley/Kaiden and Liara. Two squadmates for the entire game!

In my opinion if this happens, too bad. Cry all you want, you failed the Suicide Mission that badly, you should have to suffer for it. You write a story to tell it, not to grab every ounce of cash. Quality makes money.

Sure, but there are way too many variables to cover unless they replace some of these characters when they die. And new squadmates isn't always a bad thing.