375 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

I actually like the idea of having a new face aboard the Normandy because it brings a different perspective into place. What I mean by that, is well, Vegas hasn't been with Shepard at all and hasn't seen what Shepard and his crew have throughout the two games. Depending on how he's recruited, I believe we'll get an interesting perspective. Especially if he's never heard of the Reapers before hand, which I doubt, but It could bring a fresh perspective to the atmosphere of the ship.

Modifié par spiros9110, 19 juillet 2011 - 10:36 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

I agree with OP. That's why I liked red dead redemption they didn't go all into hand holding for me as to who was whom I'd like to go back and get the first red dead because of it. Movies do this and games should as well a mini recap maybe like for instance say Vegas asks shep so how do you know Liara and shep says he saved her Therim and she helped him stop Saren no big explanation on who did what where just a simple answer it allows new players to get the relationship and old ones to remember all the specifics.

[HTTP 404]

how dare bioware attract new customers in a free market....how dare they....<shakes fist>

[stewie1974]

Stanley Woo wrote...

how many became fans when The Phantom Menace was released?

Hopefully none!

[Lucifer_Cheney]

The fact James Vega is the representative for the newbies is no different than movies using a character that represents those in the viewing audience that may not be able to understand the plot, story or concept (ex. Ellen Paige's character in Inception). That is the proper way to be all inclusive.

[Lunatic LK47]

1upD wrote...

With most other games, that is true. However, Mass Effect is different because of the save transfer. You CAN'T go back and play through an earlier game without creating a new timeline. Some people won't mind this, but others want to view their first character as their own personal 'canon'. Making your own personal Shepard's decisions in ME2 precludes making him in ME1 - you can recreate him, but it will mess things up because his decisions weren't respected in ME2, unless you used the Genesis comic and followed the decisions you made. Personally, I would still get the feeling that 'nothing was gained'. You miss out on an epic opportunity to see your character continue his story.

Just to post something out there, but Shenmue's the first franchise to actually introduce a data import feature (which apparently is only available for Europe and Japan because us North Americans are stuck with the X-Box version of Shenmue 2), followed by Golden Sun and .Hack. The one thing Mass Effect did do first is how we exactly make our gameplay experiences different.

[fivefingaslap18]

I think what the OP wants is to really allow the story to continue without the problem of reintroduction. He and other players (including myself) don't mind that there is a new npc squadmate (as it would be quite difficult to make all past squadmates the sole of the team due to budget issues).

However, I think what we're worried about is that while those who have played 1 and 2, or 2 and then have gone back to 1 or have not done so will pick up the game at the 3rd installment. It makes very little sense to be going on as the main antagonists that have been built up from the past 2 games are destroying the entire world to deal with Vega dumb, dumb's need to understand what is going on. At this point in the series, Shepard is partially right, "We fight or we die, that's the plan." We don't have time to explain to Vega that the world's gonna end because of..... so on and so forth. If he and the players can't figure that out from the beginning of the game when giant massive ships start attacking from out of nowhere: than this is not the game for them.

Certain products require a certain consumer. Men don't buy tampons for themselves. They may buy them for their girlfriends (lovers or not)/or female family members because they cannot get to the store. The occasional male inquisitive mind might get intrigued while watching the commercials what these are about as they only feature women and head to the store. However, once they go there they realize that what it describes has nothing to do with them.

If they did not get intrigued by the second game (which was redesigned into a 3rd person shooter as an idiot friend [he truly is and a broken clock is right twice a day] of mine called it) than why would they be interested in the 3rd? The game was a hybrid of an RPG and 3rd person shooter in the 1st game. It had a voice over controlled protagonist with little reading required in order to play the game. For people interested in 3rd person and 1st person shooters this is an absolute must because I know plenty of people who only play 3rd and 1st person shooters. I am a RPG guy and they can't stand to get bogged down with the story of a game whereas I love that! Yet that didn't make them want to buy either games or finish them if they already started to play the 1st one and got bored with it part way through to just never play it again. The 2nd turned off most of the RPG elements and amped up the railroaded mission quality to it, along with redesigning the combat engine which would eventually be kept for the 3rd game, while destroying created lore. More copies were sold to people who still couldn't figure out how to keep everyone alive at the end even when they could look online to find out how bring back all squadmates. If you were smart enough too to read between the lines, you knew who was good at what abilities by paying attention to the story. By the way since this is an RPG than all people who bought the game not knowing this, but eventually in turn learned it later would have figured out that you either pay attention to the story and become engrossed in the lore for a better end, or not. If you take the latter and just shoot things expecting everything to come out perfectly fine for you get the consequences of your actions!

For EA, to say BioWare must change it's mantra as a gaming company is not unexpected, but it is unacceptable. You as a corporation bought BioWare knowing that it was the BEST, not the 2nd, not the 3rd, noth the 14th, but the BEST RPG gaming corporation in the Western Hemisphere Market. You asked them to change their company motto, their company POLICIES, and even STANDARDS! This is why you have the game ported to the PS3 when they said it never would and by saying such on it's official website not only broke BioWare's integrity, but also is fraud. That is why EA had ME2's poor low end game cover in the backdrop of Wii U's E3 coverage banner and consideration for porting over to the Wii U. That is why BioWare had said initially you would have your own dirty dozen for the suicide mission before ME2 came out and then they changed it to 10 squadmates because they wanted to cut the content and make people pay for it (or at least 1 character) when the game came out. How do we know this? PC players had the content on their computers and could read it before Kasumi came out and before Lair of the Shadow Broker was released. This wasn't through modding, but through looking through their content file.

We are not angry that there are new players BioWare employees. We are not angry that there is a new character BioWare employees. We are not angry that you put Dragon Age: Origins and it's successive titles on the PS3 BioWare Employees. We are angry that when you were bought by EA, you allowed them to control what you made and for what it was worth. I didn't mind DA:O going to other systems because it was the start of another franchise where all people could begin from the same branch. However, Mass Effect Genesis is not Mass Effect. It is not the same experience and never can be. Putting Mass Effect 2 on the PS3 is like castrating a man and calling him complete. It is a shame to the person it happened to, but he still stands proud for being what he is because he has to do so, and so do the PS3 players for allowing them to be castrated as well.

Putting in content or taking out content because you want to reach a broader audience that wants nothing to do with you is like the unathletic geek in high school trying to get onto the basketball team. He can try his hardest and he might make the team, but the jocks won't like him no matter what he does unless it's to his benefit because he speaks their language. The problem is, he's fluent in geek and they're fluent in jock. It just won't work. Call of Duty sells, but in the end it's not quality. Nothing changes about it. People play it for the multiplayer, not to think. People buy Mass Effect for the story, the lore, and possibly because they didn't realize it had people talking more than it did shooting.

I'm not angry that you include new things. I'm angry how you implement them. DA2 is a hyped up, and bribed travesty. Don't destroy your integrity for a few extra dollars. That's what almost destroyed the American banks in 2008 and it's going to happen again because if the United States Federal Government had put harsh restrictions on their bailouts they wouldn't have taken the money and we' be worse off than we were during the Great Depression. Not only did this happen, but they haven't done anything to change their mantra as they still don't care what fallout occurs from their greed and negligence. Don't change something because you want to be the jock when you're the geek. Don't destroy the economy because you want a few extra bucks. Just be you, because if you can just be you, than you can be the best of what you're capable of doing.

Modifié par fivefingaslap18, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[KingNothing125]

tl;dr

[fivefingaslap18]

KingNothing125 wrote...

tl;dr

Was trying to see where in the 3 longer paragraphs I could break into smaller ones, but only one paragraph made sense to break into two smaller ones. If you want to read now, be my guest. I had a lot to vent.

[CuseGirl]

Luc0s wrote...

What about the PS3 gamers? I guess they are screwed then?

I'm actually happy for the PS3 gamers that BioWare inserted the Genesis comic in the PS3 version of ME2, since they don't get to play the actual ME1 game because of Micro$oft.

it's even worse for PS3 gamers who bought the game used and couldn't get the Cerberus network key. So I got no comic book, so no matter wut, I'll never see this Kaiden guy or decide wut happened to the Council and such.

There are lots of people who go to sequels and have never seen the first or 2nd or third movie in the series. And this is the same issue, not all ME fans can play ME-1 or even want to (lesser graphics, completely different engine and controls). From what I hear, the inventory system and mining system is drastically different from ME-2 and I love both in the 2nd game. I dont wanna kno wut ME-1 was like because it would mess up my opinion of this game. But I can't wait for ME-3 and if there are gamers out there who are gonna jump into the third game, power to them, I hope they love it.

[mauro2222]

fivefingaslap18 wrote...

I think what the OP wants is to really allow the story to continue without the problem of reintroduction. He and other players (including myself) don't mind that there is a new npc squadmate (as it would be quite difficult to make all past squadmates the sole of the team due to budget issues).

However, I think what we're worried about is that while those who have played 1 and 2, or 2 and then have gone back to 1 or have not done so will pick up the game at the 3rd installment. It makes very little sense to be going on as the main antagonists that have been built up from the past 2 games are destroying the entire world to deal with Vega dumb, dumb's need to understand what is going on. At this point in the series, Shepard is partially right, "We fight or we die, that's the plan." We don't have time to explain to Vega that the world's gonna end because of..... so on and so forth. If he and the players can't figure that out from the beginning of the game when giant massive ships start attacking from out of nowhere: than this is not the game for them.

Certain products require a certain consumer. Men don't buy tampons for themselves. They may buy them for their girlfriends (lovers or not)/or female family members because they cannot get to the store. The occasional male inquisitive mind might get intrigued while watching the commercials what these are about as they only feature women and head to the store. However, once they go there they realize that what it describes has nothing to do with them.

If they did not get intrigued by the second game (which was redesigned into a 3rd person shooter as an idiot friend [he truly is and a broken clock is right twice a day] of mine called it) than why would they be interested in the 3rd? The game was a hybrid of an RPG and 3rd person shooter in the 1st game. It had a voice over controlled protagonist with little reading required in order to play the game. For people interested in 3rd person and 1st person shooters this is an absolute must because I know plenty of people who only play 3rd and 1st person shooters. I am a RPG guy and they can't stand to get bogged down with the story of a game whereas I love that! Yet that didn't make them want to buy either games or finish them if they already started to play the 1st one and got bored with it part way through to just never play it again. The 2nd turned off most of the RPG elements and amped up the railroaded mission quality to it, along with redesigning the combat engine which would eventually be kept for the 3rd game, while destroying created lore. More copies were sold to people who still couldn't figure out how to keep everyone alive at the end even when they could look online to find out how bring back all squadmates. If you were smart enough too to read between the lines, you knew who was good at what abilities by paying attention to the story. By the way since this is an RPG than all people who bought the game not knowing this, but eventually in turn learned it later would have figured out that you either pay attention to the story and become engrossed in the lore for a better end, or not. If you take the latter and just shoot things expecting everything to come out perfectly fine for you get the consequences of your actions!

For EA, to say BioWare must change it's mantra as a gaming company is not unexpected, but it is unacceptable. You as a corporation bought BioWare knowing that it was the BEST, not the 2nd, not the 3rd, noth the 14th, but the BEST RPG gaming corporation in the Western Hemisphere Market. You asked them to change their company motto, their company POLICIES, and even STANDARDS! This is why you have the game ported to the PS3 when they said it never would and by saying such on it's official website not only broke BioWare's integrity, but also is fraud. That is why EA had ME2's poor low end game cover in the backdrop of Wii U's E3 coverage banner and consideration for porting over to the Wii U. That is why BioWare had said initially you would have your own dirty dozen for the suicide mission before ME2 came out and then they changed it to 10 squadmates because they wanted to cut the content and make people pay for it (or at least 1 character) when the game came out. How do we know this? PC players had the content on their computers and could read it before Kasumi came out and before Lair of the Shadow Broker was released. This wasn't through modding, but through looking through their content file.

We are not angry that there are new players BioWare employees. We are not angry that there is a new character BioWare employees. We are not angry that you put Dragon Age: Origins and it's successive titles on the PS3 BioWare Employees. We are angry that when you were bought by EA, you allowed them to control what you made and for what it was worth. I didn't mind DA:O going to other systems because it was the start of another franchise where all people could begin from the same branch. However, Mass Effect Genesis is not Mass Effect. It is not the same experience and never can be. Putting Mass Effect 2 on the PS3 is like castrating a man and calling him complete. It is a shame to the person it happened to, but he still stands proud for being what he is because he has to do so, and so do the PS3 players for allowing them to be castrated as well.

Putting in content or taking out content because you want to reach a broader audience that wants nothing to do with you is like the unathletic geek in high school trying to get onto the basketball team. He can try his hardest and he might make the team, but the jocks won't like him no matter what he does unless it's to his benefit because he speaks their language. The problem is, he's fluent in geek and they're fluent in jock. It just won't work. Call of Duty sells, but in the end it's not quality. Nothing changes about it. People play it for the multiplayer, not to think. People buy Mass Effect for the story, the lore, and possibly because they didn't realize it had people talking more than it did shooting.

I'm not angry that you include new things. I'm angry how you implement them. DA2 is a hyped up, and bribed travesty. Don't destroy your integrity for a few extra dollars. That's what almost destroyed the American banks in 2008 and it's going to happen again because if the United States Federal Government had put harsh restrictions on their bailouts they wouldn't have taken the money and we' be worse off than we were during the Great Depression. Not only did this happen, but they haven't done anything to change their mantra as they still don't care what fallout occurs from their greed and negligence. Don't change something because you want to be the jock when you're the geek. Don't destroy the economy because you want a few extra bucks. Just be you, because if you can just be you, than you can be the best of what you're capable of doing.

God? is that you? ... You made me cry with your post, so true

Modifié par mauro2222, 19 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .

[rwilli80]

Valentia X wrote...

AcidGlow wrote...

Guns wrote...

 If people want to get into the series and know whats going on they should play the first two games. You shouldn't waste time and resources on an intro for new players or a character like James Vega. You don't go to a movie sequel and expect to understand it without seeing the first one. Video games should be no different especially ones focused and driven on story. 

I agree with you completely they shouldnt even think about getting the third one without playing though ME1 and 2

So.... they shouldn't bring it out for PS3 players?


The logic!

I totally agree.. at least until I get Killzone 3 for my 360  then they can have Mass Effect 3.

[CuseGirl]

SandTrout wrote...

Guns wrote...

Good companies strive to make quality games not pumping out stuff that appeases as many people as possible for the maximum buck. Bioware use to be this, but I guess they're dwindling down. 

Incorrect. Sucessful companies (the ones that survive as long as BioWare) always try to create stuff that appeals to the maximum number of people so that they can recover spent revenue and create more games. Every BioWare game to date has been accessable to newcomers, even if they are not familiar with the franchise/setting.

And that's how games should be made. I'm a HUGE sports video game fan and while NBA2k11 is very popular, it is known as "not for casual gamers". The controls are VERY difficult and this is a game about 10 characters running back and forth on a basketball court and putting a sphere in a rim. But they make it into a science. I tried to ignore my greying hair for a few weeks but I couldn't take it, I had to return it. 

All games, whether its the first in a series or the last should be "accessible" to anyone who picks it up. It's wut makes a great game, intiutive controls, good story, and every once in a while, stuff that makes u go "WTF"

[CuseGirl]

Rojahar wrote...

A lot of people overreacting based on assumption. I hear people calling Vega a "dumb dumb" and flipping out over his dialogue when... well... have ANY of you heard ANY of his dialogue?

totally agree. Also, if Vega is a veteran soldier, he has to have some knowledge of the impending invasion, so why are we assuming he's dumb?

[DTKT]

Rojahar wrote...

A lot of people overreacting based on assumption. I hear people calling Vega a "dumb dumb" and flipping out over his dialogue when... well... have ANY of you heard ANY of his dialogue?

Like it or not but the design for a character can tell a lot about it's general behavior. I have to wait and see but Vega seems like a typical meathead from what we have seen. It's a god damn shame to see them waste ressources on a character whos only purpose is to point things out to new player.

I mean, a tutorial or a Codex dedicated to helping a new player integrate would be fine. But instead, they made an entirely new character? I'm a "veteran", I don't want to have to deal with Vega if he's just there to tell me what is what. That sounds like too much of a disconnect.

[rwilli80]

Rojahar wrote...

A lot of people overreacting based on assumption. I hear people calling Vega a "dumb dumb" and flipping out over his dialogue when... well... have ANY of you heard ANY of his dialogue?

Its because he's new and has a fohawk... so he's either dump or a douchbag.. I am not sure which one I would prefer to be my squadmate.. oh wait yes I do a douchbag because Shepard can be a douchbag at times as well.

On a side note is Vega N7?

[CuseGirl]

DTKT wrote...

I mean, a tutorial or a Codex dedicated to helping a new player integrate would be fine. But instead, they made an entirely new character? I'm a "veteran", I don't want to have to deal with Vega if he's just there to tell me what is what. That sounds like too much of a disconnect.

since when does being a "veteran" of a game mean you're exempt from new content?

[LiquidLogic2020]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Iron Man 1 movie gross: $585,174,222
Iron Man 2 movie gross: $622,056,974

It's safe to assume that $36,882,752 difference is from people who haven't seen the first.

Movie analogy = fail.

I would say it still holds some what true, those films don't realy tie into each other anyway. There also cinemas equivalent to cancer. I don't see the problem with bringing the fare weather fans up to speed but it would be a little odd to sum up mass 1 and 2 in it's conclusion. If someone dident play mass 1 or 2 then why bother, they dident.

[Piotrburz]

fivefingaslap18

A good point.
In brief future we will see how EA influence bioware. Right now DA2 was screwed by EA greed.
Only ME2 was a good game after EA bought bioware. Remember that DA:O was mostly had made when EA bought bioware.

Modifié par Piotrburz, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:09 .

[Stanley Woo]

Valcutio wrote...
We're not talking about an outdated movie from the 70s. We're talking about the finale of a modern video game.

Has fandom changed that significantly in 30 years that the analogy is not relevant? When did you become a Star Wars fan? If you say anything except "when I saw Star Wars in theatres in 1977," you're no longer allowed to provide any feedback on Star Wars and no developer will listen to anything you suggest you want to see in future Star Wars products. You are also not allowed to wear Star Wars clothing, play Star wars games, or use Star Wars quotes in conversation, because obviously you're not a True Fan™. You see where this kind of thinking get you? Exclusion, exclusion, exclusion. Fandom is supposed to be about sharing your love of a world/character/setting/product.

Remember, you want producers to not cater to newcomers, so you should be okay with this. Anyone who is a fan of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Deep Space 9, Voyager, Enterprise, New Frontier, Imzadi, Star Fleet Academy, or even The Motion Picture are disallowed from shouting "KHAAAAAAAAAAAN!" because they obviously became fans after the original series aired in 1966. Never mind that many of us weren't born yet, but remember, we'd be considered newcomers by the TrueFans so we don't deserve a Star Trek product that caters to us.

I'm all about being inclusive but not at the expense of alienating your core audience - the ones that made you what you are. And I don't think anyone appreciates being called arrogant for wanting the series to continue to be what made it such a success.

Ask 100 people what they like about a given setting/series/product and you will receive multiple answers, some of them contradictory. The more people who are fans, the more likely it is that you'll have conflicting ideas. Let's take the Mass Effect series as an example. Some people liked the aiming system in Mass Effect 1, yet others preferred the aiming system in Mass Effect 2. Because combat is a core system that many other systems are built around, which system do we use? If we listen to the ME1 fans, we certainly don't "cater to newcomers," but we might end up with a less effective system. If we go with the ME2 system, we'd be "catering to newcomers" and potentially "alienating the core audience," which is also bad.

You see the dilemma here? Not specifically "catering to the newcomer" or "alienating the core audience" means we get to make the game we want to make--isn't that also an important consideration here?--and hopefully more and more people will enjoy it each time. If a player is so hung up on the way ME1 works and can't/won't consider other, perhaps better, ways of doing things, whose responsibility is that? I would say that it is the individual's user who decides whether to hop on the bandwagon rather than the developer "catering" to one group over another.

Edit: And the only reason I post is because of DA2. There was a lot of talk of catering to new players. We all see how that turned out, eh? Don't make the same mistakes.

If "mistakes" were made, they were not based on which group we "catered" to. We tried a lot of different things in Dragon Age II, one of which was addressing some of the concerns players had with the combat systems in Dragon Age Origins. some players felt that Origins combat was not responsive or fast enough, and they really didn't like the attack shuffle or the sometimes long delay times between activating an ability and seeing the results. This is where "button = awesome" came in--the desire for instant gratification when using combat abilities. If anything, many of the changes we made were done as a result of fan feedback. Original fans, at that! Some of these fans just didn't want to admit that they might have been the cause of us changing things in a way they didn't agree with.

Edit 2: And the fact that you mention the Phantom Menace just terrifies me.

It is a perfect example to use when discussing fandom and old vs. new fan expectations and desires.

[CuseGirl]

::whew:: little bit of ownage back there

[TheMakoMaster]

CuseGirl wrote...

::whew:: little bit of ownage back there

a big bit

[Stanley Woo]

Valcutio wrote...
I agree. GAMES are for everyone. Mass Effect 3 is for fans of Mass Effect 1 and/or 2. Just like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were for fans of A New Hope.

"A New Hope"??? True Fans™ call it "Star Wars" because that was the name of the movie upon release. Anyone who calls it "A New Hope' obviously came into the franchise later and is not allowed to enjoy "The Empire Strikes Back." That movie was made for us, the True Fans™

See? the more exclusive I get with my statements and the more adamant I am about insisting I am the only, best, or correct audience that should be catered to, the sillier I sound.