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[Gervaise]

I have been thinking through the events of the game and it strikes me there are no good and powerful mages in the game, apart from my own character, who ultimately don’t end up either committing mass murder by blowing people up, resorting to blood magic or consorting with demons. Practically every mage I helped at the beginning goes bad. Not one seems to have used their freedom for the long term good of others but only to advance their own agenda. My biggest disappointment, apart from Anders, was Orsino.   No only did he admit to sheltering a blood mage from the law but it was the blood mage who killed my mother and many other innocent women as well. This was before Meredith took control and therefore his lame justification that to expose him would only have reinforced her views on mages is ridiculous. Whilst it might have made not a jot of difference to her views on mages, it would certainly have improved their image with the populace at large that the First Enchanter turned the criminal in. In fact, why didn’t he ask me to deal with the problem discretely because at that time I was still a free agent and not yet the high profile champion?
 
When I opted to support the Templars I thought I was going to be confronted with lots of cut scenes of innocent mages being cut down in front of my eyes. Instead, apart from the little group with Orsino at the beginning of the confrontation (and I seem to recall even some of them were blood mages as indicated by the little marker above their head), I was faced with an endless stream of abominations, demons and undead. Then instead of a noble Orsino going down without resorting to blood magic (which would have made me feel an absolute bastard), he does the complete opposite and actually sacrifices those supposedly innocent mages he claimed to be so concerned about. And I gather the situation would have been no different if I had supported the mages.
 
Actually, of course, these mages weren’t so innocent because apparently they were willing to support him in whatever he did. The truly innocent ones were the little group who rushed out and threw themselves on the mercy of the Templars and, contrary to Meredith’s wishes, got it.   That for me is the problem. Throughout the game, there are good templars, who are willing to stand up for what they know to be right. Even Meredith, before she went insane, would not countenance making all mages tranquil and clearly actually stuck to that rule even during a period of oppression in Act 3, for which incidentally we are given no concrete examples in the game but have to take as given on Varric’s word and the unrest among the Templars.
 
Where are the high profile mages, like First Enchanter Irving, who would not submit to blood magic, even in the face of death? You can almost hear Fenris saying “I told you so, there aren’t any”.  And why in the epilogue does no one remember the excesses of the mages in Kirkwall and Anders’ crime but only the Templar response? Was there really no backlash among the people against mages? It would appear that Anders got his way after all, even if he didn’t live to see it.
 

[Nefla]

You're right, even if you support the mages, you're winning, and manage to keep most of them from dying Orsino still goes all blood-magic crazy for no reason and tries to kill you. I thought it was downright retarded how every mage you come across busts out the blood magic or turns into an abomination 2 seconds after you see them. The ONLY mage who seems good/normal other than mage Hawke/Bethany is Emile DeLance and he's a joke character.

[GavrielKay]

Well, there are plenty of tar and feathers to go around in DA2 and the Templars catch their fair share of it as well. Don't forget Karras raping Alain, Alrik wantonly tranquiling and threatening mages, and one of them tortures a Dalish elf when hunting Feynriel.

I think there were a few mages who managed not to be utterly stupid. Ella doesn't wind up committing atrocities that I recall. Feynriel seems to turn out reasonably well, though he's in Tevinter and we can only hope he doesn't get corrupted. Alain is a blood mage who ultimately refuses to kill Hawke's companion and resists Grace's evil.

There are also hundreds of mages within the circle that we never meet. As we seem to meet every dodgy mage in the Free Marches, I'd have to think some of the ones we don't meet are decent people.

I completely agree on the Orsino matter. That was such a WTF moment that I wanted to quit playing.

[TEWR]

Just to add to something, in Act 3 you can talk to an old Dalish woman and she says the Chantry priests and Templars came by and pretty much said "Convert or die".

Also, all of the good mages and good Templars got killed or arrested because of Plot Stupidity in Best Served Cold.

Though in retrospect I should've expected revenge to be a part of the quest.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Still doesn't absolve Grace and Decimus for being incredible idiots because the plot dictates.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juillet 2011 - 07:09 .

[Ryzaki]

What TEWR said. They all got killed because of Grace's stupid ass.

Should've killed her from the start. Just one in a long line of Hawke's failures.

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

Is Hawke supposed to be a seer or something? She had given up without a fight, murdering her because 'she was totally going to do something later, I could tell' would have been wrong.

Hawke's killed people for a lot less. 

Not to mention all of your party memembers (save Anders) lampshade the fact that she's a bloodmage. 

[TEWR]

what really pisses me off is Decimus' actions. He just attacks you, for no reason, because he wants to show off his Super Awesome Happy Fun Time Blood Mage Powers!!

Even if you have up to three mages max in your party.


Decimus is why I despise Grace turning on me in BSC.

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

For less like what? Attacking him? That's pretty reasonable. And not less. Since she didn't.

Being a blood mage is not a capital offense, as I'm sure many Hawkes and Wardens would agree.

Actually being a blood mage is a captial offense. And your Hawke =/= my Hawke. (Studying BM in a circle is grounds for tranquilization if they're an apprentice. The full mage BMs are probably sent to Aeonar or killed. ) 

For being a bloodmage. And actually know. Hawke kills/can kill plenty of people just for attacking him (Javaris and pretty much every poor sod you come across).  

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

It's a capital offense to the Chantry. I'm talking about what's right, not what the Chantry thinks. Two different things.

She didn't do anything that warrants death... period.

I suppose your Hawke would have murdered Merrill too if she could, huh?

And since every Hawke is different that may count as a capital offense to some Hawkes and they would've killed her. All Hawkes are not the same. There is no "she didn't do anything that warrants death...period." for you perhaps. But for my Hawke the fact that she stood there while her boyfriend attacked and did nothing to stop it, while also being a bloodmage was pretty damning (as well as the fact that she dares ask Hawke to kill a templar to cover her. The one templar trying to save her ass.) God I wish you could side with mutton chops and kill them all. There was 9 against 1. There's no way they wouldn't have been able to kill Thrask and blame his death on the mages. 

Yes my Hawke would've (and did) kill Merrill. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 juillet 2011 - 08:48 .

[TEWR]

T_T


those are the words I hate to see. "I killed Merrill" just makes me cry.

[Clover Rider]

Filament wrote...

Well, your Hawke is a douche for doing that, I've got to say. Murdering someone just for that isn't right.

Also, killing Javaris is a choice, and also a fairly douchey one. He's greedy, but he didn't do anything wrong. "He bothered me" says Hawke. Seriously?

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

Well, your Hawke is a douche for doing that, I've got to say. Murdering someone just for that isn't right.

Also, killing Javaris is a choice, and also a fairly douchey one. He's greedy, but he didn't do anything wrong. "He bothered me" says Hawke. Seriously?

Well you're free to think so. 

And I think killing Grace should've been a choice as well. Sadly Hawke has to be railroaded so he can kill her stupid ass during act 3 after she's done far more damage. 

[Dave of Canada]

Filament wrote...

Well, your Hawke is a douche for doing that, I've got to say. Murdering someone just for that isn't right.

Using the mindset of a devout Andrastian for Hawke isn't too difficult to pull off, though. I've sided with Petrice, supported the murder of the Qunari and I've killed mages for simply being apostates (or sent them to the Templar) all from the idea that he was really into the Chantry's teachings.

Murder might not be right these days, though it's different on Thedas when mages are concerned (unless you're doing it for laughs).

[Esbatty]

I get a feeling Kirkwall is like a magical/spiritual Chernobyl that no one bothered to move away from. Thus the whole higher concentration of blood magery and general mental unhingery in the population. Notice I didn't say "local population" because many of the people who freak out in Kirkwall aren't locals. We got Mages from Starkhaven, Ferelden, etc. they bop on over due to the Blight or some Mishap and in their short time in this Veil transparent land they go coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs.

[Ryzaki]

Filament wrote...

To be clear, I don't have a problem with it being a choice necessarily. But to say, Hawke is a failure for not taking that choice, that choice being murdering someone, as opposed to just turning them in, who hasn't attacked you and who hasn't, as far as you can tell, done anything wrong aside from being a blood mage, I call BS.

Not being a devout Andrastian or a sociopath =/= being a failure.

Your right it's not Hawke's failure. It's the templars failure for not realizing it and killing her on the spot. Hawke's only failure is not realizing she's a bloodmage. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:04 .

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...

I have been thinking through the events of the game and it strikes me there are no good and powerful mages in the game, apart from my own character, who ultimately don’t end up either committing mass murder by blowing people up, resorting to blood magic or consorting with demons. Practically every mage I helped at the beginning goes bad. Not one seems to have used their freedom for the long term good of others but only to advance their own agenda. 

Although they weren't powerful, I know that Hawke helps mages who don't turn bad: Starkhaven mage Terrie, the young mage Ella, the socially inept Emile, Terrie's friend who needs to be rescued from mercenaries, Feynriel (if Hawke doesn't sell his soul to Torpor, where he goes to Tevinter and remotely protects a woman from getting raped with his abilities). Terrie recommends that Hawke can help mages by aiding Mistress Selby and her underground railroad.

Gervaise wrote...

My biggest disappointment, apart from Anders, was Orsino.   No only did he admit to sheltering a blood mage from the law but it was the blood mage who killed my mother and many other innocent women as well. 

The writers admitted they did this to keep the mage option from being the "good" option, which explains why Orsino somehow knew Starkhaven mage Quentin, and why he was giving him books for "something" that didn't seem to have any practical use. Quentin was simply another insane Starkhaven mage, along with Decimus and Grace.

Gervaise wrote...

This was before Meredith took control and therefore his lame justification that to expose him would only have reinforced her views on mages is ridiculous. Whilst it might have made not a jot of difference to her views on mages, it would certainly have improved their image with the populace at large that the First Enchanter turned the criminal in. In fact, why didn’t he ask me to deal with the problem discretely because at that time I was still a free agent and not yet the high profile champion?

The same reason Cullen doesn't do anything about Anders if you warn him that the apostate is planning to attack the Chantry, with Anders in your company no less. The Plot Dictates that characters must act ridiculously foolish when it moves the plot forward.

Gervaise wrote...
 
When I opted to support the Templars I thought I was going to be confronted with lots of cut scenes of innocent mages being cut down in front of my eyes. Instead, apart from the little group with Orsino at the beginning of the confrontation (and I seem to recall even some of them were blood mages as indicated by the little marker above their head), I was faced with an endless stream of abominations, demons and undead. Then instead of a noble Orsino going down without resorting to blood magic (which would have made me feel an absolute bastard), he does the complete opposite and actually sacrifices those supposedly innocent mages he claimed to be so concerned about. And I gather the situation would have been no different if I had supported the mages.

I don't think blood magic is evil, and templars can nullify ordinary magic, as we see with the Qunari mage in Act II having his powers gone when Meredith is in his vicinity. Grey Warden mages use blood magic to fight the darkspawn, so I don't see what's evil about mages using it against templars who can nullify their abilities otherwise. Also, the plot is no different if you supported the mages - the mages rebel, the templars rebel, but if makes more sense for the mages to rebel in the pro-mage ending while it makes more sense for Cullen to protect Hawke if he sided with the templars. The writers apparently didn't give much effort in making certain aspects of the plot make sense if you didn't chose a particular fork in the road, which is why everyone in Best Served Cold assumes Hawke is working for the Knight-Commander despite publicly denouncing her dictatorship in Kirkwall and letting the Starkhaven mages go free six years ago.

Gervaise wrote...
 
Actually, of course, these mages weren’t so innocent because apparently they were willing to support him in whatever he did. The truly innocent ones were the little group who rushed out and threw themselves on the mercy of the Templars and, contrary to Meredith’s wishes, got it.   That for me is the problem. 

By mercy, the three mages who surrender could be made tranquil, as Gaider addressed the possibility of mages being made tranquil instead of outright killed in the Right of Annulment, which would explain why this particular Right of Annulment was the one that pushed all the Circles of Magi to rise up against the Chantry and the Order of Templars despite a millennia of subjugation and several prior Rights of Annulments. Had it not been as bad as the prior Rights, I don't imagine it would have been any different than the Ferelden Right of Annulment, where Greagoir admitted he would try to save as many as he could by speaking to the Grand Cleric if The Warden advocates annuling the Circle. (Which fits with his personality since he's willing to arrest, and not kill, a blood mage Warden despite it being illegal according to Chantry law).

Gervaise wrote...

Throughout the game, there are good templars, who are willing to stand up for what they know to be right. Even Meredith, before she went insane, would not countenance making all mages tranquil and clearly actually stuck to that rule even during a period of oppression in Act 3, for which incidentally we are given no concrete examples in the game but have to take as given on Varric’s word and the unrest among the Templars.

Meredith became a dictator over the entire city-state and her closest templars ended up being revealed to be rapists and sadists. There's nothing redeemable about the enviornment that Meredith cultivated, despite her turning down the Tranquil Solution. There's Thrask, but unfortunately he gets killed for an asinine plot instead of allowing Hawke to aid him... I'd feel like Hawke was actually proactive if he spent the three years aiding Thrask in getting templars and mages to work together instead of wearing silk robes and doing absolutely nothing, as the opening for Act Three indicates.

Gervaise wrote...
 
Where are the high profile mages, like First Enchanter Irving, who would not submit to blood magic, even in the face of death? You can almost hear Fenris saying “I told you so, there aren’t any”.  And why in the epilogue does no one remember the excesses of the mages in Kirkwall and Anders’ crime but only the Templar response? Was there really no backlash among the people against mages? It would appear that Anders got his way after all, even if he didn’t live to see it.

There are hundreds of men, women, and children who were condemned to death by the insane Meredith. I think the people were more concerned about Meredith ordering the execution of an entire population because of an apostate's actions than the act of the First Enchanter, or the oddly pro-templar blood mage my apostate Hawke encountered down on the docks who apparently didn't like that Hawke was protecting the mages against the templars. Not every mage goes bad, although I agree with Ethereal that the Plot Dictates a little too much in making mages and templars out to be complete idiots for the sake of the paper thin plot much too often. (See: Warning Cullen about Anders plan to attack the Chantry, with Anders present). While we see some good mages like Tobrius, we don't really see any of the enchanters aside from First Enchanter Orsino (although, given that Tobrius has apparently been with the Circle of Magi for over twenty years, I'd imagine he could be an enchanter).

[TEWR]

well she had to have done something because that Qunari was like "What the hell happened to my magics?! Work dammit!!"

[Big I]

Named mages with integrity:

Hawke (blood mage or not)

Bethany

Malcolm Hawke

Marethari

Feynriel

Emile de Launce

Sketch

Saarebas (aka Ketojan)

And if you allow blood magic:

Merrill

Alain

Idunna, after she repents in a templar cell.

[Kaiser Shepard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

T_T


those are the words I hate to see. "I killed Merrill" just makes me cry.

I wanted to kill her but ended up romancing her instead.

It's them sneaky elves, I tell ya.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:42 .