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[EmperorSahlertz]

Obviously they don't (the Templars) since some of them disagreed with Meredith.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Obviously they don't (the Templars) since some of them disagreed with Meredith.

Some, yes, but they oly truly turned against her once she tried to arrest Hawke. Mages were irrelevant.

Now, yes, there's Thrask, but how much influence does he truly have? Some, to be sure, but he struck me as being a templar from a very different era whose views are no longer commonplace. Also, who will be communicating with the Divine? Meredith. And the Knight-Commander, in all her delusional glory, wouldn't want the Divine to know that she slaughtered hundreds of mages who didn't put up a fight. She'd tell the Divine what she wanted to hear, and the Divine would take her word over that of a Templar whose loyalties are questionable.

As I said, all paths lead to the exact same point.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 27 juillet 2011 - 08:46 .

[Shadow Fox]

Rifneno wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And how do we know she wasn't just acting in Kirkwall so she could spy on the Chantry there*which she was charged to do* without getting trouble from Meredith?*considering she practically threw Alistar out when he showed up just because he sympathized with  mages and he's the freaking king! I don't see it as far fetched.*

Are you hypothesizing that she was just harsh about the mages because she didn't want to anger Meredith, which would hinder an investigation of her, or that she's just playing the Chantry as a whole (as in the main Orlesian branch as well)?

Either way I doubt it. Cassandra seemed surprised at the end of Varric's story, "So it was Meredith's fault." (Well, and why, depending on whether Hawke assisted or resisted the annulment) Leliana would've told her Meredith was likely the problem if she spent half a second in the Gallows, but instead Cassandra thinks Hawke "was an apostate who came to Kirkwall to spread subversion against the Chantry." Besides, she'd have to have been pummeled with the idiot ball for days on end to think that Hawke was working for Meredith if the pro-mage options (or really anything except "JIHAD! FOR THE MAKER!" options in the aggressive slot). And if you mean perhaps she was playing the Chantry as a whole... she's the Divine's left hand. Her being a traitor to the Chantry would be like James Bond working for the Russians. If you remember the Leliana's Song DLC from DAO, Revered Mother Dorothea who saved her from the dungeons is now the Divine. Hence how she got her position in the Seekers (or at least, we all presume).

Not against the WHOLE Chantry just the one in Kirkwall*stamping out corruption in the ranks* and really Meredith didn't axe the mages till the very end of act 3 after Janders blew up the Chantry, so it's not outrageous to think that  she didn't get the whole story if she was spying on them.

[Shadow Fox]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Obviously they don't (the Templars) since some of them disagreed with Meredith.

Some, yes, but they oly truly turned against her once she tried to arrest Hawke. Mages were irrelevant.

Now, yes, there's Thrask, but how much influence does he truly have? Some, to be sure, but he struck me as being a templar from a very different era whose views are no longer commonplace. Also, who will be communicating with the Divine? Meredith. And the Knight-Commander, in all her delusional glory, wouldn't want the Divine to know that she slaughtered hundreds of mages who didn't put up a fight. She'd tell the Divine what she wanted to hear, and the Divine would take her word over that of a Templar whose loyalties are questionable.

As I said, all paths lead to the exact same point.

Are we playing  different games?Cause the mages I saw sure as hell put up a fight.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Obviously they don't (the Templars) since some of them disagreed with Meredith.

Some, yes, but they oly truly turned against her once she tried to arrest Hawke. Mages were irrelevant.

Now, yes, there's Thrask, but how much influence does he truly have? Some, to be sure, but he struck me as being a templar from a very different era whose views are no longer commonplace. Also, who will be communicating with the Divine? Meredith. And the Knight-Commander, in all her delusional glory, wouldn't want the Divine to know that she slaughtered hundreds of mages who didn't put up a fight. She'd tell the Divine what she wanted to hear, and the Divine would take her word over that of a Templar whose loyalties are questionable.

As I said, all paths lead to the exact same point.

Are we playing  different games?Cause the mages I saw sure as hell put up a fight.

As far as I know, we've been playing the same game. EmperorSahlertz and I were discussing a hypothetical situation where the mages did not fight back against the Templars and the results.

[Ryzaki]

Mages put up a hell of a fight?

Now they did fight but...did we play the same game? I watched the mages get LOL curbstomped! by the templars. It was pathetic.
The templars came through a goddamn funnel for crying out loud!  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:18 .

[Shadow Fox]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

By the time I reached act 3, I had a lot of trouble supporting the mages, even though I'd played a pro-mage Hawke, for the reasons the OP stated. If almost every mage turns into an abomination when he or she ends up in a troublesome situation, that proves Meredith's point. The Templars were right, at least regarding the mages of Kirkwall (who are at a greater risk than other mages).

But she wasn't killing them for unleashing the blood magic. She was killing them as retribution for Anders crimes. The fact that they did end up in a troublesome situation was entirely her fault. I mean, given no options and facing certain death, no mage had anything to lose. Meredith never saw any value in not antagonizing every mage every step of the way.

But it wasn't just every mage in act 3 - it was all those mages before act 3 as well. 

And it doesn't matter if it was their last choice ... if abominations are that dangerous, a mage turning into one is catastrophic, and it shouldn't happen. Turning to blood magic and possession in a life-and-death situation is not okay, simply because the abomination can wreck so much uncontrolled havoc afterwards. 

I certainly don't think Meredith did everything right, but from what we see in the game, I can hardly blame her for her opinions. 

Yes, when sentebced to death under false pretenses, mages should just take that beating like champs. How dare they bite back after being cudgeled for something they did not do!

The problem is that they wouldn't be able to stop themselves. By turning to demons in such dire circumstances they simply prove the Templars stance right. If they instead allowed the Templars to kill them, which is inevitable, they would prove the Templars entirely wrong, and they would die as martyrs, instead of beasts.

Or things would keep on going as they always had. They might just get cut down and nothing comes of it. An obsessive, insane Knight-Commander gets lauded as a hero, the Circle begins anew, and the Templars rule with an even tighter grip. There is a grim, and very real possibility that simply allowing the Templars to kill them would change nothing. If none of the mages lived through that, Meredith would have spread any story she felt adequately justified her actions, even if they were laden with lies and delusion. Also, it might be easier to sell martyrdom to an adult, but the Circle also has many, many apprentices as young as six, who are now being hunted down due to events they do not understand caused by a man they have never heard of, none of which was their fault at all. Trying telling them that it's better that they die rather than live.

The problem is that even if Meredith hadn't annuled the Circle after what Janders did I only see this going 1 of two ways:

1. the people blame the Templars for letting Anders stay loose as long as he did,thus the Templars become even MORE ruthless in the hunting of mages.

2. the people blame the mages and encourage the Templars to be stricter and less lenient to the Circle so it doesn't repeat.

Either way  the mages are screwed.

[Morroian]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Not against the WHOLE Chantry just the one in Kirkwall*stamping out corruption in the ranks* and really Meredith didn't axe the mages till the very end of act 3 after Janders blew up the Chantry, so it's not outrageous to think that  she didn't get the whole story if she was spying on them.

Meredith asked for the rite of annulment well before Anders blew up the chantry, before the beginning of Act 3 in fact.

[Shadow Fox]

Hmm didn't see that on my playthrough maybe I missed something?

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 28 juillet 2011 - 12:25 .

[nitefyre410]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Obviously they don't (the Templars) since some of them disagreed with Meredith.

Some, yes, but they oly truly turned against her once she tried to arrest Hawke. Mages were irrelevant.

Now, yes, there's Thrask, but how much influence does he truly have? Some, to be sure, but he struck me as being a templar from a very different era whose views are no longer commonplace. Also, who will be communicating with the Divine? Meredith. And the Knight-Commander, in all her delusional glory, wouldn't want the Divine to know that she slaughtered hundreds of mages who didn't put up a fight. She'd tell the Divine what she wanted to hear, and the Divine would take her word over that of a Templar whose loyalties are questionable.

As I said, all paths lead to the exact same point.

Are we playing  different games?Cause the mages I saw sure as hell put up a fight.

As far as I know, we've been playing the same game. EmperorSahlertz and I were discussing a hypothetical situation where the mages did not fight back against the Templars and the results.

Honestly  I have been following  this  whole thread and all the  debates and points have been welll put.  Yet for  most position has not changed at all. You just don't got   committing mass murder just cause one mage blow up the Chantry its just   overkill, overreaction and more.  That is my issues with Templars as I have stated... no middle ground, no temperance, no restraint just.... "Oh its mage  kill it before it grows kill it now" Really save a few thats how they come off. Actually this is how alot of people come off in this game...I wonder if  writers are trying to tell  us something hmmm?  

I kinda don't care what Anders did at that point if she would have  chilled out I would mostly  handed him over and walked away. Now what does she do -   go "Holy  Crusade against Mages  burn them all"    And the public  hates the Mages for the most  anyway ...I doubt they would suddenly swayed  just becasue Meredith  turned out to be crazy this is the public we are talking about after all  now would they be moved if the mages set themselves a blaze in silent protest in the middle of Hightown.  Matter of fact most would just say..."OH crazy demon  controlled mages set themselves on fire.   "Yeah we at least it was not us."

[nitefyre410]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Hmm didn't see that on my playthrough maybe I missed something?

He is right she did but she was just waiting for order back from the Divine  and was REALLY close to just doing it anyway. What was the set up for everyome  meeting the way  they did at the end ....it was some kind of Search that was getting out of hand I think.

At that point in  the act she was just doing  stuff to see what  button she could push to set the mages off and get her excuse.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mages put up a hell of a fight?

Now they did fight but...did we play the same game? I watched the mages get LOL curbstomped! by the templars. It was pathetic.
The templars came through a goddamn funnel for crying out loud!  

To be honest, I don't really think that was the Circle's cream of the crop, to be honest. For one, many have already been made Tranquil. Two, many have fled to Ferelden. And three, Orsino wanted them to escape and bring news to the other Circles. I don't think he expected to actually break through Templar lines - just hold them off so that someone - anyone - could get news out. And judging from the response of the other Circles, he succeeded on that count.

[Ryzaki]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
To be honest, I don't really think that was the Circle's cream of the crop, to be honest. For one, many have already been made Tranquil. Two, many have fled to Ferelden. And three, Orsino wanted them to escape and bring news to the other Circles. I don't think he expected to actually break through Templar lines - just hold them off so that someone - anyone - could get news out. And judging from the response of the other Circles, he succeeded on that count.

Except of course for those horde of non tranquil mages you see from the beginning. If most of them had been made tranquil the gallows would've been a lot more peaceful, two most of them haven't fled anywhere at the FMV where they get curbstomped. They gape like idiots and then get cut down and then finally seem to get the fact that they're in a battle but still get the crap beat out of them. Three Orsino says that sure but they have a better chance of survival if they can actually you know beat the templars back long enough to get some breathing room. 

Except he doesn't even do that. There was a funnel. He could've kept the templars from coming in for a while yet he lets them stroll right in like an idiot. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 juillet 2011 - 01:08 .

[Macropodmum]

Gervaise wrote...

The girl who hypnotised him and he turned over to the Templars has also not been executed or tranquilised but is being held in prison, although able to contact him by letter, presumably quite legally.   So does his sister.  His mother and uncle are also able to visit her.  Strangly enough, a lot of mages seem to know who their relatives are and can keep in contact with them. This seems to run counter to Anders assertion that they are being held in prison and being tranquilised for even trivial crimes..

Ella was being made tranquil for trying to let her parents know where she was, she did not turn into an abomination even though she was visibly frightened of Alrik.  Samson (the templar) was sacked for taking a letter from a mage to his sweetheart.  Karl was made tranquil for writing a letter to Anders. On top of this Anders stated that some of the tranquils appearing in the gallows had already passed their harrowings and as such was a crime to make them tranquil.

[Morroian]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Hmm didn't see that on my playthrough maybe I missed something?

if Ser Karras is still alive click on him in the Gallows at any point during Act 3 and he will say that Meredith has sent for the rite of annulment.

[Sepewrath]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fighting back at the Templars would change absolutely nothing. On the cotnrary, it would probably make it a whole lot worse, since now they would have shown every Templar, from the oldest to the youngest, in that particular Circle, just how bad magic can turn, and they will not be lenient towards the mages ever again.

If they took their punishment with silence, they would have proven the Templars wrong, and they would, more likely than not, have left a strong impression on the younger Templars.

To actually let the demons possess you during an annulment is simply the worst possible idea you can get, for all mages everywhere.

That is total nonsense, their suppose to lay down and die in hopes, that some young Templar's will say "Well hey, those people we just commited genocide on for no reason, they were alright. If I hadn't chopped their heads off, we could have been friends" No one is just going to sit back and take an unjust punishment(that is death mind you), with a smile one their face in hopes of some rose colored future, that's not gonna happen.

Also your looking at it from only one angle, look at it from the mages perception. Isn't the Templar's trying to kill them for no reason, proving the mages perception of the Templar's to be right. And in doing so, it proves the theory that mages should not bow to the will of the Chantry, as it clearly doesn't protect their lives.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Ryzaki wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
To be honest, I don't really think that was the Circle's cream of the crop, to be honest. For one, many have already been made Tranquil. Two, many have fled to Ferelden. And three, Orsino wanted them to escape and bring news to the other Circles. I don't think he expected to actually break through Templar lines - just hold them off so that someone - anyone - could get news out. And judging from the response of the other Circles, he succeeded on that count.

Except of course for those horde of non tranquil mages you see from the beginning. If most of them had been made tranquil the gallows would've been a lot more peaceful, two most of them haven't fled anywhere at the FMV where they get curbstomped. They gape like idiots and then get cut down and then finally seem to get the fact that they're in a battle but still get the crap beat out of them. Three Orsino says that sure but they have a better chance of survival if they can actually you know beat the templars back long enough to get some breathing room. 

Except he doesn't even do that. There was a funnel. He could've kept the templars from coming in for a while yet he lets them stroll right in like an idiot. 

Okay, let's just leave it at plot-induced stupidity and call it a night, then.

[Shadow Fox]

Morroian wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Hmm didn't see that on my playthrough maybe I missed something?

if Ser Karras is still alive click on him in the Gallows at any point during Act 3 and he will say that Meredith has sent for the rite of annulment.

Heh no wonder I didn't know, I always kill the bastard.

...I still refuse to believe that Leiliana wasn't just undercover as I can't  believe Bioware would do something THAT stupid*destroying a popular character for it's idiot plot*.

for the record I don't support the opression of mages and the way the Templars do it,It just seemed like some people where saying that people that chose the templar path are comparable to murderers...that didn't set well with me. I probably misread they're posts.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

for the record I don't support the opression of mages and the way the Templars do it,It just seemed like some people where saying that people that chose the templar path are comparable to murderers...that didn't set well with me. I probably misread they're posts.

Well, you kill plenty either way. I simply didn't agree with killing the entire Circle for the actions of an unaffiliated mage. It's not a question of morality, it's a question of ethics. Why punish those who did not commit the crime? Sure, sometimes, the ends justify the means, but Meredith and many of the templars based every policy off that maxim. Eventually, one simply jumps off the slippery slope and goes from protector to oppressor. And I'm well aware many templars were nicer and were just following orders (which isn't always a suitable defense, but is separate from genuine maliciousness), and that many mages were innocent. But you can't pick and choose individual templars and mages. You go into that battle assuming it's all or nothing. It's either the Order or the Circle. It all boils down to how well you can justify Meredith's order.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 28 juillet 2011 - 03:45 .

[Shadow Fox]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

for the record I don't support the opression of mages and the way the Templars do it,It just seemed like some people where saying that people that chose the templar path are comparable to murderers...that didn't set well with me. I probably misread they're posts.

Well, you kill plenty either way. I simply didn't agree with killing the entire Circle for the actions of an unaffiliated mage. It's not a question of morality, it's a question of ethics. Why punish those who did not commit the crime? Sure, sometimes, the ends justify the means, but Meredith and many of the templars based every policy off that maxim. Eventually, one simply jumps off the slippery slope and goes from protector to oppressor. And I'm well aware many templars were nicer and were just following orders (which isn't always a suitable defense, but is separate from genuine maliciousness), and that many mages were innocent. But you can't pick and choose individual templars and mages. You go into that battle assuming it's all or nothing. It's either the Order or the Circle. It all boils down to how well you can justify Meredith's order.

Well I was refering to human players who chose the Templar for they're game character...^

[nitefyre410]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

for the record I don't support the opression of mages and the way the Templars do it,It just seemed like some people where saying that people that chose the templar path are comparable to murderers...that didn't set well with me. I probably misread they're posts.

Well, you kill plenty either way. I simply didn't agree with killing the entire Circle for the actions of an unaffiliated mage. It's not a question of morality, it's a question of ethics. Why punish those who did not commit the crime? Sure, sometimes, the ends justify the means, but Meredith and many of the templars based every policy off that maxim. Eventually, one simply jumps off the slippery slope and goes from protector to oppressor. And I'm well aware many templars were nicer and were just following orders (which isn't always a suitable defense, but is separate from genuine maliciousness), and that many mages were innocent. But you can't pick and choose individual templars and mages. You go into that battle assuming it's all or nothing. It's either the Order or the Circle. It all boils down to how well you can justify Meredith's order.

This is true  by the end there is going  enough blood on everyone hands to go around.    Though  everytime I hear the "There just following orders defense" I hear Michael Fassanberg   in head say " I've been at mercy of men following orders." 

In the end you can't base a  policy on absolutes with no middle ground.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sepewrath wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fighting back at the Templars would change absolutely nothing. On the cotnrary, it would probably make it a whole lot worse, since now they would have shown every Templar, from the oldest to the youngest, in that particular Circle, just how bad magic can turn, and they will not be lenient towards the mages ever again.

If they took their punishment with silence, they would have proven the Templars wrong, and they would, more likely than not, have left a strong impression on the younger Templars.

To actually let the demons possess you during an annulment is simply the worst possible idea you can get, for all mages everywhere.

That is total nonsense, their suppose to lay down and die in hopes, that some young Templar's will say "Well hey, those people we just commited genocide on for no reason, they were alright. If I hadn't chopped their heads off, we could have been friends" No one is just going to sit back and take an unjust punishment(that is death mind you), with a smile one their face in hopes of some rose colored future, that's not gonna happen.

Also your looking at it from only one angle, look at it from the mages perception. Isn't the Templar's trying to kill them for no reason, proving the mages perception of the Templar's to be right. And in doing so, it proves the theory that mages should not bow to the will of the Chantry, as it clearly doesn't protect their lives.

When you are faced with certain death, you have two choices. Either you die like a beast, slave to instinct and survival. Or you die for what you believe, like a martyr. The martyr death is infinitely more powerful than the first example.

And wether or not the Templars were "right" in annulling the circle is irrelevant. If the mages fight back, they've just made the Templars right. If the mages doesn't fight back at all, but fall on their swords, they will prove the Templars entirely wrong, and it will send a strong message.

[TEWR]

It won't prove them wrong if the Templars just cover it up with BS and lies. Which is what they'd do. Sweep it under the rug and never let it see the light of day.

[nitefyre410]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It won't prove them wrong if the Templars just cover it up with BS and lies. Which is what they'd do. Sweep it under the rug and never let it see the light of day.

Which we all know is something that instituations with  as much power as  Templars don't do right?    /sarcasm. 


History is written by the victors and all that jazz

[dragonflight288]

The Chantry does it also. Omitting elves from the chant because it is too heretical to believe elves are equal with humans.

Magic exists to serve man, it seems the templars only believe what they want to believe. If the mages died and didn't fight, Meredith and the templars would say they were corrupt because there wouldn't be any witnesses to say otherwise.