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[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well she had to have done something because that Qunari was like "What the hell happened to my magics?! Work dammit!!"

I love that scene. 

If only Meredith had remained that sane badass. 

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well she had to have done something because that Qunari was like "What the hell happened to my magics?! Work dammit!!"

I love that scene. 

If only Meredith had remained that sane badass. 

Thing is, she was never sane.


But I do admit that it was pretty badass.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Not a fan of the overly twirly sword animation.

me neither. It looked like her arm had no bones in it at all, just like in Harry Potter 2 (or as I call him, Harry Pothead).

other than that though, it was a badass scene.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

well she had to have done something because that Qunari was like "What the hell happened to my magics?! Work dammit!!"

I love that scene. 

If only Meredith had remained that sane badass. 

She could've been Loghain 2.0, instead she became something more akin to Saren.

Still, could've been worse: could've been Orsino.

[Macropodmum]

Actually my first play through I could not figure out why Grace turned on me after sparing her, but on my second playthrough I got the answer. As I was walking through the gallows and she was standing there with Alain (after the rescue but before the kidnapping), I don't remember if I clicked on her or not but she was spouting off about how we left her there to escape the templars with no coin, little food and not enough time etc. and therefore they got recaptured and blamed me for that....

[Ryzaki]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
She could've been Loghain 2.0, instead she became something more akin to Saren.

Still, could've been worse: could've been Orsino.

True. 

@Winter: Nah she was sane in the beginning. Just powerhungry and overzealous. 

[Gervaise]

Due to my perhaps rather quirky plot decisions - started off all pro mage freedom and then sort of changed my outlook, I seem to have been playing a totally different game to everyone else.  However, several of the good mages mentioned are not particularly powerful and the father died before they even left Lothering.  I was talking about powerful mages, like Hawke, who could single handedly wipe out a village of ordinary people.
Concerning Merrill I originally tried to be sympathetic despite the fact she was a blood mage but the first time she asked me to help with her wretched mirror I said no, because she had admitted people died when it had been active before.  So in Act 3 she asks again and admits that she had spoken to a demon about it.  I decided to play along with her in the hope I will get to kick this demon's ass and finally put to bed the mirror idea because I think it is an extremely dangerous thing, particularly in the hands of someone as flakey as Merrill.  The result of her actions is that her entire clan is wiped out which is what they were afraid of and why they asked her to leave in the first place.  And the stupid game gives me friendship points for siding with her against them when I wasn't given an alternative, in other words just handing her over for whatever justice they wished to administer for bringing about the death of their Keeper. 
My Hawke was not a blood mage.  In fact I never play blood mages because it is made perfectly clear, even by other mages (Anders included) that blood magic is evil.  Initially you only use your own blood but ultimately to get the really powerful stuff to work, it has to be someone elses, usually quite a lot of other somebodies.   One reason they needed so many slaves in Tevinter was to supply their blood magic.
At every opportunity my Hawke tells the mages and the Templars they should try and work together to resolve issues, so I was not just siting on the fence watching them tear each other apart.  Bad Templars get their asses kicked big time and end up dead.  Decent Templars are protected from mages who want to kill them just because of what they are.  Bear in mind that many Templars (like Alistair) get dumped on the Chantry by families who don't want them and basically have no choice.  Noticed also that the Lyrium withdrawal thing was totally played down because if it was me and I wanted to bring Meredith to heel, I'd just use my numerous contacts in the underworld and dwarves to cut off their supplies (or alternatively simply doctor Meredith's personal supply).  That is a really effective bargaining tool but clearly too simple and so we are left with the big bang.
Here is a question - now the mages are all running riot, it seems fairly obvious that many ordinary non magical people are going to be a) terrified and will probably kill any mage on sight just to be on the safe side, and c) in danger of falling prey to the increased need for blood magic subjects.  So if you are a mage, who will you support?

[Rifneno]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

She could've been Loghain 2.0, instead she became something more akin to Saren.

Still, could've been worse: could've been Orsino.

Orsino is so much better than Meredith it's not even comparable. The reason he sucks at his job is because she makes his job impossible. I didn't read the books, but Saren in the game was being manipulated by a superintelligent entity ancient beyond comprehension that has spent millions of years honing the art. Meredith was a monster all her own, the idol just made her a retarded Batman villain (redundant, I know). Not seeing much of a comparison there either.

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...
Here is a question - now the mages are all running riot, it seems fairly obvious that many ordinary non magical people are going to be a) terrified and will probably kill any mage on sight just to be on the safe side, and c) in danger of falling prey to the increased need for blood magic subjects.  So if you are a mage, who will you support?

Not all Hawkes buy into the idea that free mages will automatically act like Tevinter magisters and look for poor innocents to bleed every night.  Most mages will be fighting Templars for the near future and until the game says so, there's no reason to believe they are doing so using mostly blood magic. 

My default reaction is always to support freedom and to consider each mage as innocent until there is evidence otherwise.  The ordinary folks might just have to get used to mages in their midst some day rather than being coddled by the Chantry.  Just because they might feel better with mages locked away doesn't make it right.  The mages should be given a chance to prove they can be useful and decent people.

[Plaintiff]

Being a murderer does not necessarily equate to a lack of integrity. Integrity is defined as "the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles". Anders has integrity in DA2 despite (and even because of) his actions, because he holds true to his morals and does not falter. If romanced, he tells Hawke from the beginning that he's fighting for a cause that is bigger than both of them and that he'll do what it takes to acheive his ends, and give up their love if it comes to that. If he had pussied out in the end, that would be a lack of integrity.

Merrill has integrity because she holds to her principles regarding blood magic and the eluvian, and although she can be swayed, it takes a great deal to do so. Morrigan has integrity because she follows through on her own moral system of doing what it takes to survive and looking out for one's own interests

That said, I think integrity is overrated. It's all very well to say that the Templars have integrity, but anyone who unquestioningly supports such an obviously faulty system as the Chantry-controlled Circles is a complete ******, integrity or no. The best Templars are the ones who actually lack that integrity, Keran and Thrask, who work in secret to undermine Meredith and the Templar Order. They've forsaken their duty, their commander, the Chantry and their comrades in arms. That's pretty much as far from integrity as you can get if you're a templar.

I don't expect anyone to angst about petty morals when their lives are on the line. I'd certainly be more open to theivery if my only other option was to starve, but that doesn't mean I approve of it in general. I don't blame any mage for resorting to blood magic when it was so clear that they were being driven to extremes. That's the thing about extremes, they're extreme. How one acts in a literal life-or-death situation cannot reasonably be held as a mark against their character.

And since you assume the end-game situation plays out the same for mage supporters, let me tell you right now: it doesn't. In the mage-supporter ending, the mages Orsino uses to form the Harvester are already dead, having been slaughtered by templars. Yes, Hawke can kill all the templars before they even touch a mage, that doesn't matter. The content and tone of the cutscene makes it quite clear that Hawke and his friends are fighting a losing battle.

[Plaintiff]

Gervaise wrote...

Due to my perhaps rather quirky plot decisions - started off all pro mage freedom and then sort of changed my outlook, I seem to have been playing a totally different game to everyone else.  However, several of the good mages mentioned are not particularly powerful and the father died before they even left Lothering.  I was talking about powerful mages, like Hawke, who could single handedly wipe out a village of ordinary people.

Help us out, then. Which mages do you consider powerful?

Concerning Merrill I originally tried to be sympathetic despite the fact she was a blood mage but the first time she asked me to help with her wretched mirror I said no, because she had admitted people died when it had been active before.  So in Act 3 she asks again and admits that she had spoken to a demon about it.  I decided to play along with her in the hope I will get to kick this demon's ass and finally put to bed the mirror idea because I think it is an extremely dangerous thing, particularly in the hands of someone as flakey as Merrill.  The result of her actions is that her entire clan is wiped out which is what they were afraid of and why they asked her to leave in the first place.  And the stupid game gives me friendship points for siding with her against them when I wasn't given an alternative, in other words just handing her over for whatever justice they wished to administer for bringing about the death of their Keeper.

Merrill's clan literally throw themselves on your sword. They're basically committing suicide by proxy. In any case, you do have an alternative. If you offer to take responsibility for Merrill and take her away from Sundermount, they let you leave in peace. 

My Hawke was not a blood mage.  In fact I never play blood mages because it is made perfectly clear, even by other mages (Anders included) that blood magic is evil.  Initially you only use your own blood but ultimately to get the really powerful stuff to work, it has to be someone elses, usually quite a lot of other somebodies.   One reason they needed so many slaves in Tevinter was to supply their blood magic.

Blood magic is a tool, it can neither be good nor evil. Blood mages like Jowan and Merrill only use their own blood, or the blood of willing volunteers, and there is no reason to suppose they would ever need to use "the more powerful stuff". The fact that the Tevinters killed slaves for their blood magic is neither here nor there; killing is wrong regardless.

At every opportunity my Hawke tells the mages and the Templars they should try and work together to resolve issues, so I was not just siting on the fence watching them tear each other apart.  Bad Templars get their asses kicked big time and end up dead.  Decent Templars are protected from mages who want to kill them just because of what they are.  Bear in mind that many Templars (like Alistair) get dumped on the Chantry by families who don't want them and basically have no choice.  Noticed also that the Lyrium withdrawal thing was totally played down because if it was me and I wanted to bring Meredith to heel, I'd just use my numerous contacts in the underworld and dwarves to cut off their supplies (or alternatively simply doctor Meredith's personal supply).  That is a really effective bargaining tool but clearly too simple and so we are left with the big bang.

Who are Hawke's underground dwarven connections? How would you get access to Meredith's limited supply? You don't get to run around the Gallows willy-nilly, your movement is restricted.

Here is a question - now the mages are all running riot, it seems fairly obvious that many ordinary non magical people are going to be a) terrified and will probably kill any mage on sight just to be on the safe side, and c) in danger of falling prey to the increased need for blood magic subjects.  So if you are a mage, who will you support?

It's odd that you immediatly assume there will be an "increased need for blood magic subjects". Last i checked, mages can rain fiery death from above without giving themselves so much as a papercut. Templar abilities only work in close proximity anyway.

I will continue to support the mages, because their cause is just and no amount of blood spilled in a single war could possibly equal that of a thousand years of systematic religious oppression.

[Gervaise]

So using the blood of willing volunteers makes it okay does it?  That's debatable.  And the likely outcome in the lands where the Chantry is dominent is total chaos which will then allow the Imperium or Qun to move in.  In the case of the former the codex at the beginning makes it clear that children  will still be forcibly removed from their parents, those with magical ability to be instructed by the magisters and those who are not to be put to whatever use the magisters wish.   This is not just Chantry propaganda because Fenris confirms what happens in the Imperium.  The strongest magisters rule and to rise to the top you must do whatever that requires.  Power is invested in just a select few and the Templars enforce that rule on behalf of the mages. Given the cut scene with the Templars bowing the knee to my mage, it would appear that is what I achieved in Kirkwall but clearly was unable to maintain it.   And the Qun is not that much better a solution because there again people are trapped in their roles - no real freedom.    Put simply, no current system in Thedas is truly free but where the Circle/Templar relationship is properly run there are at least some safeguards in operation that prevent misuse of magic and mages preying on non magical people.   Ideally the events of Kirkwall would lead to a reformation of the Chantry and examination of where the teachings of Andraste had been altered but it would appear from the final scenes that this is not going to happen and a full scale war between Chantry and mages will follow.  I pity the ordinary folk caught in the cross fire.

[FieryDove]

Gervaise wrote...

I have been thinking through the events of the game and it strikes me there are no good and powerful mages in the game, apart from my own character, 

From what I gathered most of them fled or were made tranquil already. When you see the RoA cutscene start people wondred why the mages were so lousy fighting templars. I believe these were mostly youngsters as that was pretty much all that was left.

There were probably a few senior enchanters who were loyalists but so few and would they remain loyalist if they were going to die just for (No good reason at all). imho

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...
I pity the ordinary folk caught in the cross fire.

This could be turned around and you could say the ordinary folk have not borne their fair share of the dangers of Thedas due to allowing the Chantry to oppress mages for 1000 years.

I guess I'm just not getting how ordinary folks are somehow more deserving of feeling safe and happy than the mages are.  The mages have suffered through 1000 years of subjugation and fear mongering...  being torn from families, kept isolated, annulled at the whim of the powers that be. 

What about this system of mistrust and oppression is supposed to generate "powerful mages with integrity?"

[CrimsonZephyr]

Gervaise wrote...
Put simply, no current system in Thedas is truly free but where the Circle/Templar relationship is properly run there are at least some safeguards in operation that prevent misuse of magic and mages preying on non magical people. 

The question should not be whether there are safeguards preventing the misuse of magic (there are), but whether there are safeguards preventing the misuse of the Templars' power. There are, actually, no such safeguards. That's why Meredith is able to get as far as she did in totally terrorizing the Circle - technically, she is not doing anything against the law. Because the standard of evidence is, essentially, whatever the Knight-Commander deems relevant and the punishment is, essentially, whatever the Knight-Commander deems necessary, it doesn't really matter what a mage does, they can be executed or lobotomized on a whim. Take a look at the Fereldan Circle. It functions not because of a balanced system where the Templars' and the mages' are both regulated. It functions because Greagoir happens to be a professional man. If a less scrupulous or more authoritarian Templar were to be transplanted into his position, abuses would skyrocket. In fact, in one of the DA:O epilogues, Cullen can succeed Greagoir and become a totalitarian KC who rules with an iron fist. Therefore, it's not really the system that confers stability, but the people, which is dangerous because it takes the approval one to sanction the mass murder of the mages.

It's the fallacy of the benevolent dictator. Sure, the guy might be a benevolent man, let's make him in charge of everything without opposition. But once he's a dictator, will he stay benevolent?

[Marduksdragon]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gervaise wrote...
Put simply, no current system in Thedas is truly free but where the Circle/Templar relationship is properly run there are at least some safeguards in operation that prevent misuse of magic and mages preying on non magical people. 

The question should not be whether there are safeguards preventing the misuse of magic (there are), but whether there are safeguards preventing the misuse of the Templars' power. There are, actually, no such safeguards. That's why Meredith is able to get as far as she did in totally terrorizing the Circle - technically, she is not doing anything against the law. Because the standard of evidence is, essentially, whatever the Knight-Commander deems relevant and the punishment is, essentially, whatever the Knight-Commander deems necessary, it doesn't really matter what a mage does, they can be executed or lobotomized on a whim. Take a look at the Fereldan Circle. It functions not because of a balanced system where the Templars' and the mages' are both regulated. It functions because Greagoir happens to be a professional man. If a less scrupulous or more authoritarian Templar were to be transplanted into his position, abuses would skyrocket. In fact, in one of the DA:O epilogues, Cullen can succeed Greagoir and become a totalitarian KC who rules with an iron fist. Therefore, it's not really the system that confers stability, but the people, which is dangerous because it takes the approval one to sanction the mass murder of the mages.

It's the fallacy of the benevolent dictator. Sure, the guy might be a benevolent man, let's make him in charge of everything without opposition. But once he's a dictator, will he stay benevolent?

This. The mages and the Templars both need their own leaders, elected by them or appointed by local government, and to be accountable to each other and to the local government for their actions. The Chantry needs to be excised from the operation because it's actions have ultimately poisoned the process. There has to be oversight. There have to be checks and balances that aren't dependant on the Grand Cleric being compassionate or the Knight-Commander and First Enchanter being decent people and friends. There's too much room for abuse now- as well we've seen.

Also, I might add, the Knight-Commander can butcher his or her way through their own Templars without reproach if the Grand Cleric does not step in. Meredith certainly did.

Modifié par Marduksdragon, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .

[Rifneno]

Gervaise wrote...

So using the blood of willing volunteers makes it okay does it? That's debatable.

I don't see how. Wanna go down to a blood bank and tell them what they're doing is wrong, that people's blood is not their own to give as the see fit, and that any good (like, saving tons of lives) it does is wrong? And yes, it is the same thing.

And the likely outcome in the lands where the Chantry is dominent is total chaos which will then allow the Imperium or Qun to move in.

Has Tevinter tried to invade Thedas in the past thousand years? Should we be afraid of Rome too? ... Okay, yeah, but not by invasion. The Qunari is a valid point. However they're without an Arishok for the moment. It would be like the US going to war with no one in the White House. It's possible of course, but lacking the central leadership puts them at their own disadvantage. I think this may have been the real reason that Isabela steals the Tome of Koslun back even if Hawke gives her to the Qunari. Not to set up for Isabela's return, but to guarantee that the Arishok can't return to Par Vollen and properly lead his forces against a Thedas in chaos.

Given the cut scene with the Templars bowing the knee to my mage,

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

And the Qun is not that much better a solution because there again people are trapped in their roles - no real freedom. Put simply, no current system in Thedas is truly free but where the Circle/Templar relationship is properly run there are at least some safeguards in operation that prevent misuse of magic and mages preying on non magical people.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (Who never took a lightning bolt via kite, BTW. He merely wanted to fly a kite in an effort to gather some ions to prove the atmosphere contains an electrical charge. The lightning story can be traced back to the demigod of lies, Walt Disney, and his need to make documentaries more "exciting." This is also why people think lemmings commit mass suicide. /stupidhistoryrant)

Ideally the events of Kirkwall would lead to a reformation of the Chantry and examination of where the teachings of Andraste had been altered but it would appear from the final scenes that this is not going to happen and a full scale war between Chantry and mages will follow. I pity the ordinary folk caught in the cross fire.

I'm starting to think I should just put "Yeah, what GavrielKay said." as a sig and be done with it. She's right again. Why, exactly, are the ordinary folk more deserving of peace and safety than mages? I honestly don't get it. I could understand that some people would think that, hell some people think Elvis is still alive. But it's as if the standard school of thought is that the only concern should be the ordinary folk and screw whoever else has to suffer. I pity the guys who are being hunted like animals because they were born with more abilities. I pity the mages who have already suffered unjustly in the thousand year reign of terror of the Chantry, and the countless generations to come who would be forced to suffer through it if left to people such as yourself who care only for the here and now and only for the majority.

[Gervaise]

It is amazing how people try to twist my words to suit their own agenda - except that is exactly what occurs in the story.  The fact is there can never be total freedom because somewhere you have to draw the line and say, that cannot be allowed.  Should everyone be free to murder, or rape, just  because they have the power to do so?  Of course not.  If the Templars have been misusing their power universally then they should be brought to account.  My initial response to the situation in Kirkwall was that the Templars created it with their heavy handed use of power.  But the Circle didn't help matters because it would seem they were covering up a lot of abuses by mages.   Blood magic is not the same as blood donation to save people's lives.  For a start, blood donation does not result in the death of the donor.  Many people have spoken about religious persecution, etc, with regard to the mages.  Well presumably in the Imperium they originally had a religion that stated that only Mages should rule and probably even that mere slaves should feel honoured to give their lives.  Even with their black chantry I can see a situation in which if anyone, ordinary citizen or more particularly a mage challenges their authority, they will use the Templars to hunt them down.   Fenris' sister tells him that he willingly submitted to Denarius' experiments in order to earn his family's freedom.  She argues that if anything he has been the greatest beneficiary.  Really?  Yes, magic has given him awesome powers but at what cost?   He just feels tainted by it and like a mage he cannot get rid of it.   But right from the beginning he admits that there may be good mages, it is just that up to then he has not encountered any that would not stoop to using the wrong sort of magic if they felt they needed to.   That is why I feel Orsino is such a betrayal and should at least have been handled better, particularly if you are playing through on the side of the mages.

I have just replayed the end but siding with the Mages and as we are running around the city Averline reminds Anders that she will make sure he turns himself in once it is all over because that is Justice and Anders replies upon the lines that he is glad she brought up that point because it does not seem to apply to everyone.   However, when Cullen stands up to Meredith he quite clearly states. "You are going against everything the order stands for." He admits he was at fault for not acting sooner.   The good Templars trying to help the mages would appear to be just as typical of the order as the bad ones.  

But most interesting for me was my final conversation with Anders when he invoked the blessing of Andraste and the Maker on our endeavours.   Back in Awakening he looked up at a statue of Andraste and commented that he wondered what the champion of slaves would make of the current situation with regard to mages.  So he clearly believes that what is the current situation is not what Andraste intended.   And interestingly enough we now have a new mage specialist class known as the force mage, with an attack known as the Fist of the Maker.   When mages gave it this title, were they just being ironic?  My favourite move against templars is to hit them with the vortex spell which pulls them into a nice contained heap and then slam them with Fist of the Maker, following up with whatever seems appropriate, by which time my sword wielding companions have got to work on them.   (May the Force be with you)

[Rifneno]

Gervaise wrote...

It is amazing how people try to twist my words to suit their own agenda - except that is exactly what occurs in the story. The fact is there can never be total freedom because somewhere you have to draw the line and say, that cannot be allowed. Should everyone be free to murder, or rape, just because they have the power to do so?

Is this supposed to be ironic? You complain about people twisting your words and then immediately lecture us about why everyone can't be allowed to commit murder and rape. Did you see some post here where murder and rape is endorsed? Because I sure as hell don't.

But the Circle didn't help matters because it would seem they were covering up a lot of abuses by mages.

Unless you were paying attention, then you'd probably only see evidence for one case (Orsino/Quentin).

Blood magic is not the same as blood donation to save people's lives. For a start, blood donation does not result in the death of the donor.

Sure it does, tainted needles. If you want to use hyperbole where we only look at the extreme case scenario, so can I.

Many people have spoken about religious persecution, etc, with regard to the mages. Well presumably in the Imperium they originally had a religion that stated that only Mages should rule and probably even that mere slaves should feel honoured to give their lives.

So now we're just making random speculation to suit our arguments. Sweet. Did you know that the Divine sacrifices a virgin every 13 minutes to the dark lord Innoruuk?

That is why I feel Orsino is such a betrayal and should at least have been handled better, particularly if you are playing through on the side of the mages.

Cliff notes for when the teacher asks you what was the point of Merrill's story. The lesson was "blood magic isn't inherently evil."

However, when Cullen stands up to Meredith he quite clearly states. "You are going against everything the order stands for." He admits he was at fault for not acting sooner. The good Templars trying to help the mages would appear to be just as typical of the order as the bad ones.

So when Orsino alone does something bad because he's working in a broken system, the Circle should be ashamed of themselves for their abuses. But when the army of fascists mutanies on their leader after and I stress, AFTER, they commit genocide, we should give them the benefit of the doubt because there's a lot of good ones.

No.

(May the Force be with you)

God I hate Star Wars. =/

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...

It is amazing how people try to twist my words to suit their own agenda - except that is exactly what occurs in the story.  The fact is there can never be total freedom because somewhere you have to draw the line and say, that cannot be allowed.  Should everyone be free to murder, or rape, just  because they have the power to do so?  Of course not.  If the Templars have been misusing their power universally then they should be brought to account.  My initial response to the situation in Kirkwall was that the Templars created it with their heavy handed use of power.  But the Circle didn't help matters because it would seem they were covering up a lot of abuses by mages.   Blood magic is not the same as blood donation to save people's lives.  For a start, blood donation does not result in the death of the donor. 

There is a difference between total freedom and being kidnapped as a child and locked away for life.

Who exactly is supposed to bring the abusing Templars to account?  The Knight Commander either doesn't know or doesn't care.  The Grand Cleric is sitting on her hands apparently hoping for divine intervention.

It might sound all noble, but it isn't very human to sit around and suffer abuses without trying to free yourself from it.  The mages learn blood magic because it is a defense against the Templars who are abusing them.  My Hawke chooses to see the cause as abuse and the effect as blood magic rather than the reverse.  Given Meredith's history I doubt she came in all sweetness and light and then got mean when she spotted blood magic.

And, blood magic doesn't have to kill the donor.  I don't use it on my characters because I like other stuff better, but a tool isn't good or evil.  If the person uses it for good, then it is a good thing.

[Plaintiff]

Gervaise wrote...
So using the blood of willing volunteers makes it okay does it?  That's debatable.

It's "debatable" only if you're the sort of person who believes people don't have complete rights to their own bodies

And the likely outcome in the lands where the Chantry is dominent is total chaos which will then allow the Imperium or Qun to move in.

The Imperium and the Qunari are rather tied tied up warring with each other. I dunno where you get the idea that either party would be capable of large-scale invasion in the next several decades, if ever. 

In the case of the former the codex at the beginning makes it clear that children  will still be forcibly removed from their parents, those with magical ability to be instructed by the magisters and those who are not to be put to whatever use the magisters wish.   This is not just Chantry propaganda because Fenris confirms what happens in the Imperium.  The strongest magisters rule and to rise to the top you must do whatever that requires.  Power is invested in just a select few and the Templars enforce that rule on behalf of the mages.

The amnesiac elf said it so it must be true!

Fenris's experiences in the Imperium are limited almost entirely to his time with Danarius. He can't give us an accurate picture of what Tevinter is like, he fills in the blanks using his own imagination. 

Given the cut scene with the Templars bowing the knee to my mage, it would appear that is what I achieved in Kirkwall but clearly was unable to maintain it. 

Only if your mage was a) a blood mage and a douchebag. Why do you assume that this is what every mage wants? Anders despises blood magic and Merrill can't even step on an insect without stopping to hold a tiny funeral for it. Most of the mages we see are not magister material.

And the Qun is not that much better a solution because there again people are trapped in their roles - no real freedom.    Put simply, no current system in Thedas is truly free but where the Circle/Templar relationship is properly run there are at least some safeguards in operation that prevent misuse of magic and mages preying on non magical people.

Because obviously if we let mages have rights, they'll take over the world and brutally subjugate us, just because this one other place did once a thousand years ago.  I notice you have nothing to say about the rape and other various abuses inflicted on mages by the templars. Or are those part and parcel of the "properly run" circle? maybe that's how we know it's working. 

Ideally the events of Kirkwall would lead to a reformation of the Chantry and examination of where the teachings of Andraste had been altered but it would appear from the final scenes that this is not going to happen and a full scale war between Chantry and mages will follow.  I pity the ordinary folk caught in the cross fire.

I too, am overwhelmed with sorrow at the thought of all those pixels whose lives will be cut tragically short.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:25 .

[Walrusninja]

That annoyed me too. I was like "yeah I'll stand by the mages, they're not all bad!!" then they all used Blood Magic ..... yay.....
Kind of broke the idea that some were worth saving.