256 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Walrusninja wrote...

That annoyed me too. I was like "yeah I'll stand by the mages, they're not all bad!!" then they all used Blood Magic ..... yay.....
Kind of broke the idea that some were worth saving.

Actually...look again. There are a bunch that do use Blood Magic, but there are crowds of mages that only ever use normal magic (the group in the Gallows Courtyard, the group that helps you fight the first waves of Templars, and the guys in the street in Lowtown). Not to mention Bethany and Emile.

[OMTING52601]

Both sides are in the wrong, which is what makes siding with either so distasteful to me.

On the whole, I'm all for giving mages freedom. The Circle is broken and, like any other organized religion, The Chantry is all about subjugation. Thus, I side with mages in every major 'choice' offered. I help Anders out, I cover for the Starkhaven mages, I rescue Fenriel(sp) and send him to the Dalish, then send him to Tevinter. That said, I refuse to kill Thrask, I usually kill Anders, and I usually side with the templars in the end.

Not because I think their side has more 'right', but because the only way to affect change in Kirkwall is to be the Viscount(and after siding with the mages and finding out that Orsino did nothing to stop Quentin not only kill my mother but many others, I was too sickened) and because the damage the mages could do to the people of Kirkwall was greater than the damage the templars would do to the mages. Mages attacked everyone, while the templars - in game at least- appeared to focus solely on the mages. It was the lesser of two evils, though I always tell the templars that follow me into the Gallows not to kill the mages, that we're only trying to stop the violence, not wipe out the entire Circle for Mad Meredith.

And the way I took the various epilogues and Varric's conversations with the Seeker, it sounds like not only did the circles rise up, but a lot of templars left as well, which leads me as the player to think I got it right. Generally, even the templars think tearing mage children away from their families and locking them up forever because a few of them might potentially go bad is beyond overly cautious. It's criminal and wrong.

That said, while blood magic is a tool and so in and of itself has no prejudice, its use weakens the mage wielding it further to the domination/possession of demons. Even if the reason for the use is a 'just' one, the outcome of using it(except maybe for a blood mage Hawke- I don't know) are always negative. Merrill gets either her whole clan wiped off the face of Thedas or gets exhiled with the understanding that if any of her clan catch her in a dark alley, she's dead. Her use of blood magic gets the woman who was 'like a mother to her' killed horrifically. She loses everything. Orsino becomes the thing he's been trying to tell everyone all mages aren't, effectively silencing any argument he may have had that all mages don't resort to blood magic. And he loses everything, whether the player sides with him or against him. In fact, the biggest proof that all mages don't resort to blood magic is Anders, and I absolutely appreciate the irony of the one mage who doesn't use blood magic(in the game) killing hundreds of people with a bomb just to make a point. See, he doesn't have to use blood magic; he can use magic enhanced gun powder - god I loathe Anders.

The mages should not be kept as slaves to the Chantry, but neither should they be excused from using any means necessary. So, when a blood mage kills someone or becomes an abomination, they must be killed for the greater good. Just like when a Templar oversteps himself, he must be removed and appropriately punished - his/her life taken if necessary and without hesitation. Truth be told, and a bit of a segue, I think of all the groups in Thedas, the elves have it the worst. Treated like dirt, allowed to be raped and murdered without reprimand. Forced to live in squalor. It's them I pity the most because they 'have' freedom and yet they continue to live as chattel.

[Sidney]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Both sides are in the wrong, which is what makes siding with either so distasteful to me.

Yeah but that is sort of the point of a "dark" fantasy is to explore those grey areas. The Harrowmont/Bhelen choice doesn't have a good option: murderous power grubber vs arch reactionary. That is what made that so much more interesting that a "good" or "bad" scenario.

[OMTING52601]

Walrusninja wrote...

Actually...look again. There are a bunch that do use Blood Magic, but there are crowds of mages that only ever use normal magic (the group in the Gallows Courtyard, the group that helps you fight the first waves of Templars, and the guys in the street in Lowtown). Not to mention Bethany and Emile.

This is why 'all' mages can't be stained with the blood magic brush and why they should be allowed to live free. Because not all mages use blood magic. But those that do, that kill to achieve their goals, must be divested of their living bodies.

[Sidney]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Walrusninja wrote...

That annoyed me too. I was like "yeah I'll stand by the mages, they're not all bad!!" then they all used Blood Magic ..... yay.....
Kind of broke the idea that some were worth saving.

Actually...look again. There are a bunch that do use Blood Magic, but there are crowds of mages that only ever use normal magic (the group in the Gallows Courtyard, the group that helps you fight the first waves of Templars, and the guys in the street in Lowtown). Not to mention Bethany and Emile.

Thank you, when people make the "no good mages" this is the point. We no more run into "good" mages than the run into "good" Tevinters (they're all slavers and magisters from what we see). Your job description involves searching out trouble and troublesome mages are the ones who use blood magic and do naughty things.

[OMTING52601]

Sidney wrote...

OMTING52601 wrote...

Both sides are in the wrong, which is what makes siding with either so distasteful to me.

Yeah but that is sort of the point of a "dark" fantasy is to explore those grey areas. The Harrowmont/Bhelen choice doesn't have a good option: murderous power grubber vs arch reactionary. That is what made that so much more interesting that a "good" or "bad" scenario.

You know, Bhelen was a conniving nug humper, but until I played the Dwarf Noble Origin, I didn't realize how bad he was(murderous, power hungry, kinslayer). Harrowmont was a 'good' man with a narrow, and decidedly prejudiced, view of what dwarves should be. Still, choosing between the two of them wasn't nearly as grey, so to speak, as choosing templar or mage. Seriously, if you want the best outcome for Orzammar - moving forward toward equality for all, that is- choose Bhelen. If you want status quo that doesn't last long, choose Harrowmont. Harrowmont is an awful king, but according to the epis, Orzammar on the whole keeps moving on even after he dies.

Really, no comparison, imo and ymmv.

[LT123]

Some Geth wrote...

Filament wrote...

Well, your Hawke is a douche for doing that, I've got to say. Murdering someone just for that isn't right.

Also, killing Javaris is a choice, and also a fairly douchey one. He's greedy, but he didn't do anything wrong. "He bothered me" says Hawke. Seriously?

Kind of like killing Brother Genitivi in Origins.

[Gervaise]

And I played through the alternate ending with me defending the mages, at every possible opportunity defended the ones not using blood magic from the templars and succeeded, yet to further the storyline the cut scene shows those same mages dead and as a consequence Orsino in a last act of desparation, becoming the Harvester.  His words are something to the effect that he thought it too dangerous but now what the hell.  Blood magic is used to summon demons and undead, which is why they always seem to turn up where there are blood mages.  It is also implied that its use makes you more suseptible to possession - the game storylines that is.   Remembering back to Origins, it would seem that the theories about magic use have come as much from what mages themselves have researched on the matter and observed in the field as from Chantry doctrine.  This is why it is nothing unusual to find senior enchangers like Irving, Orsino and others with texts on the matter.  Again in Origin one of the quests is to find those ancient scrolls so the mage in question can make of better study of blood magic, I seem to recall so he could defend against it.  Every bit of lore and story in previous Dragon Ages has warned against blood magic, yet now people are trying to say that its use is okay.  In Origins you could only get the blood mage specialty if you make a deal with a demon.  This is why tensions are running so high in Kirkwall because for some reason blood mages keep cropping up, thus making an already hard line Knight Commander positively paranoid.  Not only that but it would appear that demons have also found a way of possessing Templars as well, as they did in the circle back in Ferelden.   Quite frankly you cannot regard the situation in Kirkwall as normal in any respect.  Meredith says you cannot distinguish between blood mages and others just by looking at them but as everyone knows, you quickly find out if you threaten them.  

I personally do not condone much of what appears in the game but I have to work with the world I a meant to be in and what I am told by characters in the game.  If you do not chose certain dialogue options, you don't even find out certain information.  For example, first run through I did not immediately hit on Anders in my first conversations with him, i.e. select the romance dialogue.  As a result I never knew that the guy made Tranquil was his former lover.   Only discovered that today.  Certainly in Kirkwall mages are being treated badly but does that reflect a universal situation?   In Origins Wynne seems free to wander around on her own, take a job as adviser to the king, attend a mages convention in the north, all without a Templar in constant attendance.  Then there was that old lady botanist whom she asked us to look for, who had apparently spent some time quiet legally out in the wilds, with again not a Templar in sight.  This would imply that some mages at least are not virtual slaves.

That said, if this was a real world situation and there were actually people who could do what mages can do with magic, where some took people off the streets and used them in their experiments, and where some mages even had the power to enter your mind in your dreams,  and in the past the entire world had been subjugated by these mages, would you not want them regulated in some way so they did not abuse their power?    That is the situation in Thedas.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Gervaise wrote...

That said, if this was a real world situation and there were actually people who could do what mages can do with magic, where some took people off the streets and used them in their experiments, and where some mages even had the power to enter your mind in your dreams,  and in the past the entire world had been subjugated by these mages, would you not want them regulated in some way so they did not abuse their power?    That is the situation in Thedas.

And in one's zeal to regulate them, it's perfectly fine to strip a minority of basic rights and dignity in an ironic and blatant abuse of power in order to prevent an abuse of power? All because a group of mages with completely different cultural and political values than the entire rest of Thedas are self-indulgent and corrupt. Right, should we start locking noblemen in cages as well? The magisters are, after all, noblemen first.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:03 .

[GavrielKay]

OMTING52601 wrote...
On the whole, I'm all for giving mages freedom.

You say that, but you apparently don't mean it. You'd rather kill the mages than set them free.

I was too sickened) and because the damage the mages could do to the people of Kirkwall was greater than the damage the templars would do to the mages. Mages attacked everyone, while the templars - in game at least- appeared to focus solely on the mages.

See?

It was the lesser of two evils, though I always tell the templars that follow me into the Gallows not to kill the mages, that we're only trying to stop the violence, not wipe out the entire Circle for Mad Meredith.

So you make up your own game and play it in your mind and then use it back up your position on the forum to people who are playing the actual game?  It doesn't work that way.  The RoA klls all mages.  And if a few happen to be spared by accident they are Tranquiled.  That's from David Gaider.

And the way I took the various epilogues and Varric's conversations with the Seeker, it sounds like not only did the circles rise up, but a lot of templars left as well, which leads me as the player to think I got it right. Generally, even the templars think tearing mage children away from their families and locking them up forever because a few of them might potentially go bad is beyond overly cautious. It's criminal and wrong.

Except it says the Templars left to hunt the mages. Not to get away from the Chantry doctrine.  You really aren't playing the same game the rest of us did.

In fact, the biggest proof that all mages don't resort to blood magic is Anders, and I absolutely appreciate the irony of the one mage who doesn't use blood magic(in the game) killing hundreds of people with a bomb just to make a point. See, he doesn't have to use blood magic; he can use magic enhanced gun powder - god I loathe Anders.

We have no idea how many people Anders killed.  The Chantry and street in front of it are pretty empty at night.  And he didn't do it "just to make a point."  He did it to start a war that would potentially free the mages from 1000 years of Chantry domination.  The ends may not justify the means, but at least admit what the ends are.

Truth be told, and a bit of a segue, I think of all the groups in Thedas, the elves have it the worst. Treated like dirt, allowed to be raped and murdered without reprimand. Forced to live in squalor. It's them I pity the most because they 'have' freedom and yet they continue to live as chattel.

Yes, the elves have it bad.  Perhaps they and the mages can work together to force some actual change.

[nos_astra]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
And in one's zeal to regulate them, it's perfectly fine to strip a minority of basic rights and dignity in an ironic and blatant abuse of power in order to prevent an abuse of power?

See, the thing in Thedas is that it's a pre-modern world. And if you dig through the thick layers of sugar coating and unrealistic idealism you'll find that anything short of confining them to one place and having them watched by people trained to dispel their magic would be close to not regulating them at all. That way you simply change the kind of abuse that is bound to happen.

Modifié par klarabella, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[Gervaise]

I must admit I was going over some of the old story lines from Origins last night and remembered the Orlesian refugee in Denerim market who explained she had to leave home because her brother hit a chevalier (not killed him I seem to recall) in order to stop him raping her but that in Orlais the Chevalier was well within his rights, so they had to run. In one run through when I spared Loghain out of curiosity, he explained to me why he hates Orlesians and said about how I'd feel the way he did if I'd seen an old farmer whipped to death for simply demanding their rights. So I suppose it is perfectly possible that Templars abuse their position and it is seen as quite normal and okay, depending on which part of Thedas you happen to be in. Even in Ferelden there are nobles who seem to see themselves as having rights similar to those in Orlais and I also seem to recall that the cleric at the wedding didn't immediately run off to the Chantry and get her Templars to intervene, even if protecting a bunch of non mage elves was not strictly part of her remit. In each state someone seems to be oppressed who isn't part of the ruling elite, usually the elves, or in the case of the dwarves, the castless. There is no Charter of Human Rights in Thedas.

[Rifneno]

Walrusninja wrote...

That annoyed me too. I was like "yeah I'll stand by the mages, they're not all bad!!" then they all used Blood Magic ..... yay.....
Kind of broke the idea that some were worth saving.

Because using a risky weapon that you've been led to believe is the only one the army trying to murder you is vulnerable to means you're pure evil.

OMTING52601 wrote...

Not because I think their side has more 'right', but because the only way to affect change in Kirkwall is to be the Viscount(and after siding with the mages and finding out that Orsino did nothing to stop Quentin not only kill my mother but many others, I was too sickened) and because the damage the mages could do to the people of Kirkwall was greater than the damage the templars would do to the mages. Mages attacked everyone, while the templars - in game at least- appeared to focus solely on the mages.

- What a hilarious justification for murdering a bunch of innocent people so you can get yourself a meaningless political title. Epic fail.

- Oh goodie, we're back to Orsino. Orsino didn't murder anyone. Unlike your Hawke, who kills countless innocent prisoners so he can get a title. Leandra deserved to die for raising such a goddamn monster.

- The mages are going nuts because of the templars. Saying the mages are the ones ruining Kirkwall and the templars' hands are clean shows a gross misunderstanding of cause and effect.

And the way I took the various epilogues and Varric's conversations with the Seeker, it sounds like not only did the circles rise up, but a lot of templars left as well, which leads me as the player to think I got it right. Generally, even the templars think tearing mage children away from their families and locking them up forever because a few of them might potentially go bad is beyond overly cautious. It's criminal and wrong.

Go get a stepladder. You'll never reach those straws grasping like that.

Merrill gets either her whole clan wiped off the face of Thedas or gets exhiled with the understanding that if any of her clan catch her in a dark alley, she's dead. Her use of blood magic gets the woman who was 'like a mother to her' killed horrifically. She loses everything.

Marethari became an abomination of her own free will. Her clan is a bunch of belligerent, racist idiots. They brought it on themselves.

In fact, the biggest proof that all mages don't resort to blood magic is Anders, and I absolutely appreciate the irony of the one mage who doesn't use blood magic(in the game) killing hundreds of people with a bomb just to make a point. See, he doesn't have to use blood magic; he can use magic enhanced gun powder - god I loathe Anders.

A shame he didn't murder them for something worthwhile, like a useless title. Then he's be a hero, right?

[FieryDove]

OMTING52601 wrote...

 killing hundreds of people with a bomb just to make a point. See, he doesn't have to use blood magic; he can use magic enhanced gun powder - god I loathe Anders.
 

Where did you get that idea? Its doubtful by the time it happens there is anyone in the Chantry but the GC and a few templar BG's as they know war is brewing.

As to the people complaining about all mages using BM most of those we encounter are not circle mages, they are resolutionists. (On the Loose/Best served cold being the exception).

Codex
---
The Resolutionists changed all that. Splitting from the main Libertarian fraternity, the Resolutionists are open apostates who support freedom for mages at all costs. They engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas, and many are connected to Kirkwall's mage underground.
---

[nos_astra]

FieryDove wrote...
Where did you get that idea? Its doubtful by the time it happens there is anyone in the Chantry but the GC and a few templar BG's as they know war is brewing.

That depends on what you want to imagine.

A magically enhanced explosions that easily disintegrates one of the largest buildings in Kirkwall and sends a good part of it flying all the way to Lowtown.

Is the chantry really empty? Where are all the revered mothers, affirmed brothers and sisters, lay brothers and sisters, orphans? Does the explosion destroy more than the chantry building? What about the debris and fire raining down on Lowtown?

[FieryDove]

klarabella wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
Where did you get that idea? Its doubtful by the time it happens there is anyone in the Chantry but the GC and a few templar BG's as they know war is brewing.

That depends on what you want to imagine.

All I can go by what is shown/said in-game. Of course that can change at the drop of a hat. Unreliable narrator and such.

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...
Here is a question - now the mages are all running riot, it seems fairly obvious that many ordinary non magical people are going to be a) terrified and will probably kill any mage on sight just to be on the safe side, and c) in danger of falling prey to the increased need for blood magic subjects.  So if you are a mage, who will you support?

Running riot? That's a pretty big assumption on your part. All we know is that the mages emancipated themselves from a dictatorship that lasted a millennia and committed genocide against countless men, women, and children across the span of centuries, not to mention giving countless people lobotomies and then using them as servants to fill the coffers. I can see why mages would want freedom from this subjugation.  

As for people trying to kill them, I don't care about them - should people feel bad that mages might need to protect themselves against bigoted rioters who might lynch mages simply for having magical abilities? Why should I care about bigots who would try to murder the innocent?

Also, why would blood mages need subjects? There are Grey Wardens who use blood magic because it gives them an edge against the darkspawn, so I don't think blood mages will need "subjects" when they can use their own blood to fuel their spells, which is useful as templars can nullify ordinary magic.

Gervaise wrote...

So using the blood of willing volunteers makes it okay does it?  That's debatable.  And the likely outcome in the lands where the Chantry is dominent is total chaos which will then allow the Imperium or Qun to move in. 

 
The Imperium and the Qunari are a little preoccupied fighting each other, as they have been for centuries. Fighting another foe would divert their energies from fighting each other, and give the other an opening to attack their forces and territory.

Gervaise wrote...

In the case of the former the codex at the beginning makes it clear that children  will still be forcibly removed from their parents, those with magical ability to be instructed by the magisters and those who are not to be put to whatever use the magisters wish. 

That happens under the regime of the Andrastian Chantry as well. The only mages exempt from this rule are Grey Wardens, who don't operate under the auspicies of the Chantry or the Order of Templars.

Gervaise wrote...

This is not just Chantry propaganda because Fenris confirms what happens in the Imperium.  The strongest magisters rule and to rise to the top you must do whatever that requires.  Power is invested in just a select few and the Templars enforce that rule on behalf of the mages. Given the cut scene with the Templars bowing the knee to my mage, it would appear that is what I achieved in Kirkwall but clearly was unable to maintain it. 

 

All your Hawke achieved was becoming Viscount, which means his power was at the behest of the templars, not the other way around. Your Hawke didn't control the Order of Templars any more than the prior Viscounts did.

Gervaise wrote...

And the Qun is not that much better a solution because there again people are trapped in their roles - no real freedom.    Put simply, no current system in Thedas is truly free but where the Circle/Templar relationship is properly run there are at least some safeguards in operation that prevent misuse of magic and mages preying on non magical people. 

There are no templars controlling mages among the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, or with the seers in the Kingdom of Rivain. Even the morally bankrupt society of Haven had mages living among non-mages.

Gervaise wrote...

Ideally the events of Kirkwall would lead to a reformation of the Chantry and examination of where the teachings of Andraste had been altered but it would appear from the final scenes that this is not going to happen and a full scale war between Chantry and mages will follow.  I pity the ordinary folk caught in the cross fire.

Which, unfortunately, will be entirely out of our hands, because it's doubtful the developers will allow the player to decide the outcome of the war and then accomodate every sequel henceforth for two different decisions. Even the mage and templar decisions of Hawke have virtually the same outcome: mages rebel, templars rebel, and a likely war will ensue.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Gervaise wrote...
 There is no Charter of Human Rights in Thedas.

Yes, in a world where women have the right to be in the army, own property, use contraceptives (and if you're in the Circle, the Church provides them!), where kings are not always absolute in authority, and where homosexuality is, at least tacitly, tolerated, no one came up with the idea that the authorities should be accountable for their use of power. Right.

Don't use the real-world Middle Ages as a guide for every moral question in Thedas. It's not a perfect fit.

[Rifneno]

klarabella wrote...

That depends on what you want to imagine.

A magically enhanced explosions that easily disintegrates one of the largest buildings in Kirkwall and sends a good part of it flying all the way to Lowtown.

Is the chantry really empty? Where are all the revered mothers, affirmed brothers and sisters, lay brothers and sisters, orphans? Does the explosion destroy more than the chantry building? What about the debris and fire raining down on Lowtown?

I don't need to imagine anything, I watched the video of the explosion. The great majority of the Chantry was thrown far out of Kirkwall. The debris went in an outwardly-expanding ring, not a globe. What Kirkwall itself was hit with could only be described as a swift gust of wing with a lot of dust. If you're really allergic I guess it might be harmful.

Not gonna lose any sleep about the revered mothers and such dying. Orphans? Now that does suck. But judging by how much the Chantry didn't give a crap about the orphans Evelina endangered herself to get Chantry aid for, I doubt there were many there.

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for people trying to kill them, I don't care about them - should people feel bad that mages might need to protect themselves against bigoted rioters who might lynch mages simply for having magical abilities? Why should I care about bigots who would try to murder the innocent?

Amen brother. I'll never understand why people think it's okay to murder the mages so that a mob of would-be murderers doesn't risk themselves lynching. I can't begin to fathom what perversion of rational thought would arrive at such a conclusion.

I say bring on the lynch mob. I could use the easy XP.

[GavrielKay]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Yes, in a world where women have the right to be in the army, own property, use contraceptives (and if you're in the Circle, the Church provides them!), where kings are not always absolute in authority, and where homosexuality is, at least tacitly, tolerated, no one came up with the idea that the authorities should be accountable for their use of power. Right.

Don't use the real-world Middle Ages as a guide for every moral question in Thedas. It's not a perfect fit.

OOh, I like this.  I hadn't even thought of it, but yes, in many ways the world of Thedas is actually far more enlightened than the real world was at that point in techological evolution.  In a few ways, they are ahead of the modern world.

The fact is that there was a war to throw off the rule of mages from the Imperium.  The Chantry and common folk at the point where the war ended apparently decided the best way to prevent this happening again was to lock up the mages so they couldn't take over anything again. 

While I certainlly agree with having thrown off their mage overlords and winning freedom for themselves...  turning around and using that freedom to oppress the mages is just as wrong as the reverse.  It is not right for anyone to use their power (either magical or of numbers) to strip away the personhood of anyone else. 

The mages born into the Warden or Hawke's time had nothing to do with the Imperium and have operated no vast empire of slaves and blood magic.  They deserve the right to individually turn out good or bad and be treated as such.  That is all anyone deserves - to be thought of as WHO they are, not WHAT they are.  In this, the Chantry fails just as badly as the Qun. 

Mages "aren't pepole like you and me, they are weapons" according to Cullen.  So long as the Chantry encourages people to see mages in that way, they provide zero reason for any mage to become a "mage with integrity" as the OP puts it.  They encourage only survival instinct, and that's rarely pretty.

The fact that all that we've played through has happened after 1000 years of the circle system, it should be fairly clear that it isn't working.  Every pro-Templar player who points at the rampant blood magic and abominiatins as proof the that circle is necessary should recall that the circle (up until the very end of DA2) hasnt' fixed a darned thing.  Everything you see is in spite of the circles, so perhaps that should actually convince people something else is needed.

[Medhia Nox]

I think those who believe mages to be the same as normal people to be insanely selfish. They want all the perks of being able to cast destructive spells - and also, have all the personal freedoms of people who can't possibly defend themselves from these people.

If I had any political power at all in Thedas ( as an exclusive mage player ) - even after the Chantry's power over the Templars dissolves - all mages would be forced to carry a Writ of Practice - and all spell knowledge would be required to be logged for reference - any mage caught practicing a militant spell that is not registered (and militant spells would be outlawed to any but government sponsored mages) would be condemned to Aeonar or death.

This notion that mages could be trusted with their power is purely based on the idea that selfish people want to be able to have power, abuse it, and still claim that they should be held to the same standard as people denied that power.

You want equality - then all mages should be public servants using their powers for the good of the entire community.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:38 .

[Harid]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think those who believe mages to be the same as normal people to be insanely selfish. They want all the perks of being able to cast destructive spells - and also, have all the personal freedoms of people who can't possibly defend themselves from these people.

If I had any political power at all in Thedas ( as an exclusive mage player ) - even after the Chantry's power over the Templars dissolves - all mages would be forced to carry a Writ of Practice - and all spell knowledge would be required to be logged for reference - any mage caught practicing a militant spell that is not registered (and militant spells would be outlawed to any but government sponsored mages) would be condemned to Aeonar or death.

This notion that mages could be trusted with their power is purely based on the idea that selfish people want to be able to have power, abuse it, and still claim that they should be held to the same standard as people denied that power.

You want equality - then all mages should be public servants using their powers for the good of the entire community.

 
I can agree with this, but something like making all mages public servants is impossible to enforce, as Malcolm Hawke was able to fool people from knowledge that he was even a mage, for instance, and impossible to expect of people, given human nature (see every evil mage we've ever killed).  I think things like the Circle will persist, when the Tevinter Imperium has circles to stop random mages from doing stupid things, it's a neccesary institution for mages to have to stop them from being dangerous to others.

Modifié par Harid, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:24 .

[Medhia Nox]

It's not so much that I believe it's possible... it's that any minority, real or imaginary, who claims to want equality - should integrate into the society.

I am deeply opposed to minorities who claim to want equality - but also want special events to honor their differences - special neighborhoods - special treatment.

Either you want to be different - or you want to be equal. It is utterly selfish to want both.

And this is speaking from a position of a minority.

===

Now - turn that minority into a genuine threat (as opposed to the perceived threat of bigotry in the real world) - and that becomes doubly true.

If mages are sincere in their desire to be "just like everyone else" - then either they must forsake magic forever (oddly enough - no mage ever seems to be okay with this - hmm) - or they must use those talents for the betterment of community.

For those to whom much is given, much shall be required. - I paraphrase.

[Rifneno]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think those who believe mages to be the same as normal people to be insanely selfish. They want all the perks of being able to cast destructive spells - and also, have all the personal freedoms of people who can't possibly defend themselves from these people.

I don't think you understand what the word "selfish" means... unless you think we're mages in real life. But then you've got much bigger problems.

If I had any political power at all in Thedas ( as an exclusive mage player ) - even after the Chantry's power over the Templars dissolves - all mages would be forced to carry a Writ of Practice - and all spell knowledge would be required to be logged for reference - any mage caught practicing a militant spell that is not registered (and militant spells would be outlawed to any but government sponsored mages) would be condemned to Aeonar or death.

Because nothing challenges immortal evils like paperwork.

This notion that mages could be trusted with their power is purely based on the idea that selfish people want to be able to have power, abuse it, and still claim that they should be held to the same standard as people denied that power.

You want equality - then all mages should be public servants using their powers for the good of the entire community.

I believe the word you're looking for is "slave." And it's based purely on the fact that they didn't ask for their power and most of them just want a normal life.

[Rifneno]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If mages are sincere in their desire to be "just like everyone else" - then either they must forsake magic forever (oddly enough - no mage ever seems to be okay with this - hmm) - or they must use those talents for the betterment of community.

Oddly enough they don't want to have their soul ripped out? This place needs to have an ignore list. /sigh